[NU Discussion] Aggron

[DaftCoolio]

 

The NU tier is plagued with strong offensive Pokemon but none stand out quite like Aggron. Strong base stats, wide coverage moves and access to sturdy make it one of the most threatening Pokemon currently in the NU tier.

 

Strong STAB moves in both Rock Slide and Iron Tail are capable of two hitting a majority of pokemon in the tier while Ice Punch, Fire Punch, Earthquake and Superpower provide extra 100% accurate coverage. Whiscash and Hitmontop are the best two counters for Aggron, however the only recovery option on these two counters is rest. Tangela is worth an honorable mention but Iron Tail still has a chance to 2hko and there is always the potential for a Rock Slide flinch or that coverage Ice Punch. Its unique rock/steel typing makes it a strong normal resistant pokemon as well as checking some psychic attacks. 

 

Aggron's poor speed and special defense keep it somewhat manageable but having access to sturdy can deter faster and more fragile pokemon from revenge killing Aggron. 

 

The Tier Council would like the communities input on how they feel about Aggron in NU. Is Aggron an Offensive Uber? Is it too unhealthy for NU? Aggron or Aggwrong?

Edited April 5, 2017 by DaftCoolio

[DoubleJ]

My thoughts are this: Aggron is an incredible lead and considering we have only one form of entry hazard (Spikes), Sturdy provides an incredible amount of offensive momentum. Unfortunately, NU is plagued by not having a reliable defensive spin blocker and thus our very few spinners can easily remove Spikes in exchange for a bit of lost momentum. Considering this, Aggron is pretty much free to hit-and-run as it pleases. 

 

On the other hand, Aggron's typing and weak special defense really limit it's ability to switch in. The only reliable switch in it has is against Fearow or a predicted Toxic. The only way to gain momentum is by getting a free switch or somehow maintaining Sturdy to force a switch yourself, otherwise pretty much everything not named Shuckle, Fearow, or Chimecho can elicit a decent amount of damage against this tank. 

 

 

All in all, I think PokeMMO really lacks the appropriate means of handling powerful, offensive Sturdy users in the lower tiers. We are having the same discussion with Golem in UU and thus it could just be a case of Sturdy. I'm not advocating a complex ban on this ability, but I do believe we are too limited in our resources and thus we should just make a decision to ban these uber-leads and be done with it. 

[Bilburt]

banggron amirite

[Laz]

Aggron's main counters imo are: 

-Relaxed Whiscash: Gets 3hko'd ~ with CB Earthquake

-Bold bellossom: Gets 2hko'd with CB Iron tail
-Relaxed Metang: Gets 2hko'd with CB Earthquake
-Relaxed Torkoal: Gets 2hko'd with CB Earthquake

While spikes can ruin Aggron's ability, Sturdy, I don't agree with you JJ when you say 

22 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

NU is plagued by not having a reliable defensive spin blocker and thus our very few spinners can easily remove Spikes in exchange for a bit of lost momentum.

Bold Roselia can easily win in a 1v1 vs Hitmontop - Claydol - Sandslash - Kabutops, none of these Spinners would like a stab Sludgebomb/Giga drain, and let's not forget Sableye.
With this said, I don't think Aggron deserves a ban ( yet ), because spikes can ruin it, because of it's low speed, and because its main stab attacks have low accuracy and are double edged.

 

[OrangeManiac]

I've seen there's multiple experienced players who has been capable of building Aggron-countering oriented counterteams containing stuff like Qwilfish and Hitmontop + support and by what I've seen they're fairly alright doing that job but regardless there's just so little drawbacks running Aggron and especially as a lead so it narrows the metagame a shit ton.

 

I think NU is more diverse as a metagame without Aggron and it isn't really bringing much "needed" or helpful aspects to the NU metagame.

Edited April 5, 2017 by OrangeManiac

[RysPicz]

I feel that Aggron's biggest selling points are movepool, allowing it to reliably hurt entire meta for neutral or super effective damage, sturdy and after it loses sturdy, it still has switch-ins due to it's typing and massive defense stat.

Our NU walls are not able to withstand the cb spam of Aggron unless perfectly predicted. Both Aggron and Golem remind me of old times in UU where we basically had Granbull leads everywhere or anti-granbull lead. In NU, we basically have almost only Aggron leads and different ones are immeadietly (did I spell this word right? turned out autocorrect :( ) put on a disadvantage- they have to die while Aggron still lives thanks to sturdy and then it will still have a chance to either revenge or grab a predicted switch to deal some damage before finally fainting. Im unsure if I would argue if it is unhealthy (defo), offensive uber (to some degree, surely) or centralizing (probably not that much from my experience). I think I would put it as offensive uber, capable of one-shoting or 2shoting almost entire tier sometimes even without much prediction.

[pachima]

The sole reason I saw 4 defensive whiscashes in my last NU in a meta those didn´t exist before shows how hard this thing can be stopped.

[LifeStyle]

6 minutes ago, pachima said:

The sole reason I saw 4 defensive whiscashes in my last NU in a meta those didn´t exist before shows how hard this thing can be stopped.

tbh I'm surprised you didn't make HP Grass Aggron yet

[gbwead]

5 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Unfortunately, NU is plagued by not having a reliable defensive spin blocker and thus our very few spinners can easily remove Spikes in exchange for a bit of lost momentum. Considering this, Aggron is pretty much free to hit-and-run as it pleases. 

I completly disagree with that statement. Spinning is incredibly difficult in NU even without Misdrevus to spin block. There isn't a single spinner that can win 1v1 against Qwilfish and Torkoal takes a lot of dmg against Roselia if it switches on Sludge Bomb. There is imo no such thing as a reliable spinner in NU. The best you can do is chase the spiker away and then spin at a later time. However, given the offense nature of the tier, the loss of momentum for spinning is incredible and experienced players will punish the delayed spin. With that in mind, I don't believe Aggron can keep its sturdy up during an entire duel.

 

I agree with most of you guys that Aggron is difficult to handle tho and should still be considered banworthy. As a lead, its wallbreaking power paired with Sturdy is a huge pain. It can still be managed with Hitmontop - especially as a counter lead with pursuit -, with defensive Wishcash, with Tangela and a few checks, but unless Quagsire or Poliwrath drop to NU, I think that Aggron is too much right now. 

Edited April 5, 2017 by gbwead

[pachima]

4 hours ago, LifeStyle said:

tbh I'm surprised you didn't make HP Grass Aggron yet

Sry man, I did a sunnybeam aggron though.

[LifeStyle]

47 minutes ago, pachima said:

Sry man, I did a sunnybeam aggron though.

Damn, that's even more advanced

[Elliasal]

On ‎4‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 2:02 AM, Lazaro23 said:

Bold Roselia can easily win in a 1v1 vs Hitmontop - Claydol - Sandslash - Kabutops, none of these Spinners would like a stab Sludgebomb/Giga drain, and let's not forget Sableye.

 

Calm mind Claydol can outpace Bold Roselia rather well, then can deal with Aggron if it has hp ground.

[DiDi]

7 minutes ago, Elliasal said:

Calm mind Claydol can outpace Bold Roselia rather well, then can deal with Aggron if it has hp ground.

while true, the problem with this is you probably want to have 2 attacks, and rest is the best 4th move for this set... at which point it doesnt become a spinner, of course.
if you chose to have spin as a 4th move in this set for whatever reason, so many things can punish you with toxic and ultimately, rip your spinner 

as for aggron, it's really good; perhaps the best NU has to offer at the moment via NU v NU. with that being said, i really dont think it deserves a ban.

going to pull up bits and pieces from everyone's point of view to support my own

Spoiler

 

On 4/5/2017 at 1:33 AM, DoubleJ said:

On the other hand, Aggron's typing and weak special defense really limit it's ability to switch in. The only reliable switch in it has is against Fearow or a predicted Toxic. The only way to gain momentum is by getting a free switch or somehow maintaining Sturdy to force a switch yourself, otherwise pretty much everything not named Shuckle, Fearow, or Chimecho can elicit a decent amount of damage against this tank. 

to further add to this, if aggron does switch in on fearow or chimecho/shuckle not using toxic, the sturdy is broken and on CB aggron that's a big something you dont want to give up, whether you're surviving at 99% or 1%. i dont want to touch on what you said about spinners too much, because gbwead and lazaaro are completely right.


 

 

On 4/5/2017 at 2:02 AM, Lazaro23 said:

With this said, I don't think Aggron deserves a ban ( yet ), because spikes can ruin it, because of it's low speed, and because its main stab attacks have low accuracy and are double edged.

this pretty much sums it up. as for what you said about aggrons counters, though what i'm about to say isn't a counter, it certainly helps. during granbull era, subtrode lead was super popular, and the main reason for this (aside from the lightning speed to fall back on) was to scout bulls move and work from there. when golem became popular, we couldnt do that because of stab multi hit, but we can vs aggron. once again i want to say that it isnt a counter in the least, but it can help a lot.

 

 

On 4/5/2017 at 2:12 AM, OrangeManiac said:

I've seen there's multiple experienced players who has been capable of building Aggron-countering oriented counterteams containing stuff like Qwilfish and Hitmontop + support and by what I've seen they're fairly alright doing that job but regardless there's just so little drawbacks running Aggron and especially as a lead so it narrows the metagame a shit ton.

1st part of that supporting my stance, and while the 2nd part technically is against my stance on aggron, i do agree that there are little drawbacks running aggron. as i said in response to laz' comment, things like sub electrode can at least show you what you're dealing with, and you can work from there

 

 

On 4/5/2017 at 4:08 AM, RysPicz said:

I feel that Aggron's biggest selling points are movepool, allowing it to reliably hurt entire meta for neutral or super effective damage, sturdy and after it loses sturdy, it still has switch-ins due to it's typing and massive defense stat.

Our NU walls are not able to withstand the cb spam of Aggron unless perfectly predicted. Both Aggron and Golem remind me of old times in UU where we basically had Granbull leads everywhere or anti-granbull lead. In NU, we basically have almost only Aggron leads and different ones are immeadietly (did I spell this word right? turned out autocorrect :( ) put on a disadvantage- they have to die while Aggron still lives thanks to sturdy and then it will still have a chance to either revenge or grab a predicted switch to deal some damage before finally fainting. Im unsure if I would argue if it is unhealthy (defo), offensive uber (to some degree, surely) or centralizing (probably not that much from my experience). I think I would put it as offensive uber, capable of one-shoting or 2shoting almost entire tier sometimes even without much prediction.

same with orange with though your argument is the opposite of mine, im partly on your side with a lot of it. as i said at the very beginning, aggron is quite possibly the very best NU has to offer, but there are ways to work around it without much work. what you said about aggron is mostly the only lead and any other lead puts you at a disadvantage, consider a lot of people lead counter aggron leads, so maybe try countering the counter lead. or even better, if you can manage to get both (it's doable, believe me). to finish, im going to quote something gb said. " It can still be managed with Hitmontop - especially as a counter lead with pursuit". that's to put some perspective on the aggron is the king of leads hinting going on in that.
 

 

On 4/5/2017 at 5:50 AM, gbwead said:

 With that in mind, I don't believe Aggron can keep its sturdy up during an entire duel.

 

I agree with most of you guys that Aggron is difficult to handle tho and should still be considered banworthy. As a lead, its wallbreaking power paired with Sturdy is a huge pain. It can still be managed with Hitmontop - especially as a counter lead with pursuit -, with defensive Wishcash, with Tangela and a few checks, but unless Quagsire or Poliwrath drop to NU, I think that Aggron is too much right now. 

as i've been saying this whole time, yes, aggron is great and possibly the best of the best in NU. you already touched on the disadvantage it can have as a lead (pursuit top, i even quoted you on this in my response to forfi), though i dont want anyone to think that's me saying aggron lead isnt good, it's just a really notable flaw. the best counters are probably as you said, whiscash and tangela, but you can always use a protect/sub poke to see where you're at with aggron and switch accordingly. all in all, aggron isnt the fastest by any means, so once sturdy is broken, though still hard to switch against, it makes it a whole lot easier to clean up with your offensive pokes. 

overall ~ good? yes. too good? i dont believe so 

[Barrage]

Hey I like this Pokemon

[Illumino]

Honestly earth being one of the most used offensive types is able to easily 4x him into sturdy and It's hard to get a perfect switch with his typing. He is powerful mostly because his blockage on toxic switch ins but as long as he cant switch in on a toxic he is useless.

[LifeStyle]

On 6/6/2017 at 2:48 PM, Illumino said:

Honestly earth being one of the most used offensive types is able to easily 4x him into sturdy and It's hard to get a perfect switch with his typing. He is powerful mostly because his blockage on toxic switch ins but as long as he cant switch in on a toxic he is useless.

already banned m8

[Illumino]

2 hours ago, LifeStyle said:

already banned m8

I know but love me

[DiDi]

On 6/6/2017 at 9:48 AM, Illumino said:

Honestly earth being one of the most used offensive types is able to easily 4x him into sturdy and It's hard to get a perfect switch with his typing. He is powerful mostly because his blockage on toxic switch ins but as long as he cant switch in on a toxic he is useless.

??????????
please, stick to electric mono 

[Illumino]

19 minutes ago, DiDi said:

??????????
please, stick to electric mono 

No need to be rude about it, haven't played as much NU, but my opinion is it is hard to get a good switch in with that typing there are so many counters to it. Honestly just stick to your disagreement no need to be a jerk.

[DiDi]

Just now, Illumino said:

my opinion is it is hard to get a good switch in with that typing there are so many counters to it. 

yeah, like whiscash impish, and.. whiscash relaxed. i guess whiscash bold could be a counter too, though much less viable.
well, 3 counters, i stand corrected; shit mon