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Discussing the upcoming meta.


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17 hours ago, pachima said:

I hope they don´t follow gen5 mechanics so deeply. 

I want to play a game that offers a different playstyle than in every other place.

If they take it away, this becomes grindshowdown 2.0.

 

I dont think i ll be.. We still ll have stuff like growth jolteon, etc. then doesnt exist in any smogon meta

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4 hours ago, LifeStyle said:

Nah Growth Jolteon will die in new meta imo, Volt Switch is just a way better option since it offers momentum+scouting

Yeah it prob will. But I meant MMO still ll have some stuff that wouldnt be legal on showdown, some special moves from glitched roms in the past or past gens. An example is Belly drum + aqua jet azumarill, wich was illegal in gen V but allowed in gen VI due new breeding mechanics. MMO still ll have some stuff (besides been a MMO lol) wich ll make it different from official smogon metas.

Edited by Risadex
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30 minutes ago, suigin said:

Just Heatran being gone alone makes a whole universe of difference in the meta.

Now add the lack of Musketeers, Genies, Kyurem, Kyurem-B, Cresselia, Azelf and Shaymin

Yeah depeding the way we ll be able to get /breed legendaries the meta could be much more variable, for an exemple: defensive landorus-T leave some space for gliscor that also sirve as stall breaker, etc. Also the 1st gen birdies, 2nd beasts, 3rd regis, 4th gen lake's trio... etc those are offensive and defensive trheats that would be considered. Also the mythical those I consider also very important non-uber ones like celebi, jirachi, shaymin, victini, keldeo, meloetta, etc.

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this Azu fear is killing me, pls stop.

 

so, Gen 5 is probably the generation I have played the most. Coincidentally, fuck Gen 5, it's the worst gen, weather wars suck.

 

With that being said, by far my favorite archetype in Gen 5 was rain teams. Sand just felt kind of gross to play, and Sun was much of the same, so I stuck with Rain. And logically, past me looked at all the possible pokemon I could use, looked at Azumarill, and thought: "Holy shit, all this attack, STAB Waterfall and Aqua Jet, BOOSTED BY RAIN? This is BROKEN! Why isn't this OU?"; So, I played a shit ton of Azumarill on my rain team, sticking to CB (Belly Drum+Jet wasn't legal, but even if it was, there's no way it'd get anywhere), as it was really the only real way to make it work.

 

So, naturally, let's start out by talking about Azumarill's viability in Gen 5 OU, which as you might imagine, was nonexistent. (See BW OU SPL Usage; Literally 0 Azu, for good reason, despite tons of Politoeds)I mean, it wasn't bad, it could viably hit things and hit them decently hard. However, it suffered from quite a few major flaws:

 

First of all, it was only viable on Rain. This in itself is like 30 different flaws, and it really hampers any viability this thing might have. Without Rain up, it's just a Water type that hits harder than normal, with fucking terrible coverage (Superpower/Ice Punch/Waterfall/Aqua Jet and Double-Edge/Return if you want lmao) and a decent priority move. There are a million better options than it. You can't run it as an anti-rain mon to take advantage of opposing rain teams either, because it fucking sucked against Rain teams, and even if it didn't, there are actually good anti-Rain team options available.

 

So, it's only viable on Rain, but that's not too bad, right? I mean, Rain's pretty good. It OHKO's most of the highest usage pokemon in the tier with the right move too, so if it comes in, it can do some real damage. Well, no, it being only viable on Rain is that bad. In gen 5, it's pure Water type, meaning it has literally no defensive synergy with rain teams, greatly compounding their weaknesses. Even it's main coverage options, Water/Ice/Fighting have literally no synergy with the average types you'd find on other rain mons, with Fighting being ridiculously common (especially on lolKeldeo), Ice is a common coverage option available to water types, and Water doesn't even need to be discussed. Typewise and coverage wise, Azumarill is just another assortment of common weaknesses that the rain team has to deal with. And that's terrible.

 

The terrible defensive synergy also compounds another big weakness Azumarill has; It's really, ridiculously susceptible to chip damage. For a slow, kind of bulky mon that comes in, hits something, and is forced out, it has big problems with getting chipped down. It's susceptible to every entry hazard, and in Gen 5, spinning away hazards is a gigantic pain in the ass. Spikes spam and T.Spikes are really obnoxious, and Azumarill gets completely obliterated by it. This also means that not only is Azumarill hard to switch in, but you have to make the few times it does get to come in really count. However, it's coverage options are so bad, that if you pick the wrong move (ie end up Waterfall/Aqua Jetting a Ferrothorn or something), not only have you completely thrown away your momentum, but your Azumarill is only 1 or 2 more switchins away from getting kept as a sac or Aqua Jet threat.

 

Even if you do make the correct prediction, Azumarill is then massive setup bait. Naturally, this is an obvious flaw of a pokemon that is pretty much always CB-Locked, but Azumarill is especially huge setup bait. Also, all of this is ignoring the several pokemon that completely just hard counter and shut Azumarill down (Gastrodon, Jellicent, Rain Stall Tentacruel come to mind, Jellicent especially), so if whatever reason you do struggle with it and just playing around it regularly for some reason, it's not like you don't have options.

 

So, I hope I've established that Azumarill isn't good in Gen 5 OU, like, at all. So, this brings up the question; Would it be good in PokeMMO Gen 5 Discount Toffee Imitation?

 

No, probably not.

 

So, it gains Belly Drum, the legendaries aren't around, weather isn't permanent, and if it's lucky, Defog will remove hazards, so it won't have to fucking implode every time a Ferrothorn gets a little cheeky on the other team.


Buuuut, Rain isn't permanent, meaning Swift Swim + Drizzle will be legal, and it still suffers from the problems it had in Gen 5; Notably, without Rain, it hits hard, but nowhere near hard enough to be considered over other hard hitters, it has bad coverage options, all of the pokemon that walled it into oblivion are still available, and it provides pretty much no defensive synergy whatsoever. And with 5/8 turn rain and Swift Swim allowed, Azumarill would be hard pressed to find a slot on a rain team. The only way it could work as a win condition on a team like that is with Belly Drum, but with the terrible defensive synergy it has, it'd be hard pressed to get a Drum off; Even if it did, it certainly wouldn't be unstoppable. A CB set would be just as bad, the moment you run into a team that has a hard counter to Azu, your hyper-offense Rain team now has a pokemon that is effectively a liability, and can't even really function as a pivot due to it's type not complimenting your other mons. It's too easily walled and too inconsistent, especially when compared to threats like SS Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops.

 

So, what about non-Rain teams? Well, it really, really misses the Rain boost, and being pure water type does it no favors. Without the Rain boost, CB Azumarill even gets stalled out by Skarmory, which is just terrible. Yeah, on non-rain teams it at least isn't making the whole "I've got like 4 water types on my team" issue worse, but it's not exactly a great positive. Most non-rain teams are going to want their own bulky waters anyway to deal with Rain, which sucks for Azumarill; Every team is keeping options on hand for dealing with water types like it, both offensively and defensively, meaning that against any decent team, Azumarill is gonna really struggle to get in AND to break through their defensive core. It's resistances really do it no favors; Steel is really uncommon offensively, barring something like Ferrothorn, which Azu would never in a million years want to come in on, Water/Ice are most common from Water types that Azu doesn't want to come in on, since they probably wall it anyway, and if it gets Scald burned it's literally useless, and Fire would only really be seen on Sun teams with Sun up, which can OHKO it with a Solarbeam, outspeed, and even if it Aqua Jets it almost definitely won't OHKO in the sunlight. 

 

At the end of the day, hitting hard just isn't enough. Without the Fairy type, Play Rough, and super-Knock Off, Azumarill struggles to consistently come in, it's coverage is so bad that it's very predictable and walled by a good amount of bulky waters, and there's just... other pokemon that can hit hard. CB gets punished hard even if it does manage to get in and hit something, (assuming the enemy has 0 reliable answers) which is unreliable, and Belly Drum has a hard time setting up, and even if it does, it isn't even close to a guaranteed sweep. It won't even have Rain to make it stronger to fall back on, because honestly, I can't imagine Rain teams bothering with Azumarill, they have way better sweepers/hard hitters to choose from.

 

tl;dr pick up a jellicent or something fuck azu isn't very good guys call me when you get fairies

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1 hour ago, Senile said:

 

I am not fearing azumaril aswell, as u said, with no secondary fairy type to easy switch into dragon atks and a secondary STAB azumarill doesnt see soo gud, but depending of what we ll get it it prob go to UU/BL 

 

The starting meta prob ll be about clearing entry hazards fight, all people wanting setting up stealth rock / TS and them spin block with new-released ghost types if defog follow the mechanics of gen 6 defiant would be a interesting ability to run

 

Also trying to test a trick room team :d

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On 4/12/2017 at 3:57 PM, Senile said:

this Azu fear is killing me, pls stop.

 

so, Gen 5 is probably the generation I have played the most. Coincidentally, fuck Gen 5, it's the worst gen, weather wars suck.

 

With that being said, by far my favorite archetype in Gen 5 was rain teams. Sand just felt kind of gross to play, and Sun was much of the same, so I stuck with Rain. And logically, past me looked at all the possible pokemon I could use, looked at Azumarill, and thought: "Holy shit, all this attack, STAB Waterfall and Aqua Jet, BOOSTED BY RAIN? This is BROKEN! Why isn't this OU?"; So, I played a shit ton of Azumarill on my rain team, sticking to CB (Belly Drum+Jet wasn't legal, but even if it was, there's no way it'd get anywhere), as it was really the only real way to make it work.

 

So, naturally, let's start out by talking about Azumarill's viability in Gen 5 OU, which as you might imagine, was nonexistent. (See BW OU SPL Usage; Literally 0 Azu, for good reason, despite tons of Politoeds)I mean, it wasn't bad, it could viably hit things and hit them decently hard. However, it suffered from quite a few major flaws:

 

First of all, it was only viable on Rain. This in itself is like 30 different flaws, and it really hampers any viability this thing might have. Without Rain up, it's just a Water type that hits harder than normal, with fucking terrible coverage (Superpower/Ice Punch/Waterfall/Aqua Jet and Double-Edge/Return if you want lmao) and a decent priority move. There are a million better options than it. You can't run it as an anti-rain mon to take advantage of opposing rain teams either, because it fucking sucked against Rain teams, and even if it didn't, there are actually good anti-Rain team options available.

 

So, it's only viable on Rain, but that's not too bad, right? I mean, Rain's pretty good. It OHKO's most of the highest usage pokemon in the tier with the right move too, so if it comes in, it can do some real damage. Well, no, it being only viable on Rain is that bad. In gen 5, it's pure Water type, meaning it has literally no defensive synergy with rain teams, greatly compounding their weaknesses. Even it's main coverage options, Water/Ice/Fighting have literally no synergy with the average types you'd find on other rain mons, with Fighting being ridiculously common (especially on lolKeldeo), Ice is a common coverage option available to water types, and Water doesn't even need to be discussed. Typewise and coverage wise, Azumarill is just another assortment of common weaknesses that the rain team has to deal with. And that's terrible.

 

The terrible defensive synergy also compounds another big weakness Azumarill has; It's really, ridiculously susceptible to chip damage. For a slow, kind of bulky mon that comes in, hits something, and is forced out, it has big problems with getting chipped down. It's susceptible to every entry hazard, and in Gen 5, spinning away hazards is a gigantic pain in the ass. Spikes spam and T.Spikes are really obnoxious, and Azumarill gets completely obliterated by it. This also means that not only is Azumarill hard to switch in, but you have to make the few times it does get to come in really count. However, it's coverage options are so bad, that if you pick the wrong move (ie end up Waterfall/Aqua Jetting a Ferrothorn or something), not only have you completely thrown away your momentum, but your Azumarill is only 1 or 2 more switchins away from getting kept as a sac or Aqua Jet threat.

 

Even if you do make the correct prediction, Azumarill is then massive setup bait. Naturally, this is an obvious flaw of a pokemon that is pretty much always CB-Locked, but Azumarill is especially huge setup bait. Also, all of this is ignoring the several pokemon that completely just hard counter and shut Azumarill down (Gastrodon, Jellicent, Rain Stall Tentacruel come to mind, Jellicent especially), so if whatever reason you do struggle with it and just playing around it regularly for some reason, it's not like you don't have options.

 

So, I hope I've established that Azumarill isn't good in Gen 5 OU, like, at all. So, this brings up the question; Would it be good in PokeMMO Gen 5 Discount Toffee Imitation?

 

No, probably not.

 

So, it gains Belly Drum, the legendaries aren't around, weather isn't permanent, and if it's lucky, Defog will remove hazards, so it won't have to fucking implode every time a Ferrothorn gets a little cheeky on the other team.


Buuuut, Rain isn't permanent, meaning Swift Swim + Drizzle will be legal, and it still suffers from the problems it had in Gen 5; Notably, without Rain, it hits hard, but nowhere near hard enough to be considered over other hard hitters, it has bad coverage options, all of the pokemon that walled it into oblivion are still available, and it provides pretty much no defensive synergy whatsoever. And with 5/8 turn rain and Swift Swim allowed, Azumarill would be hard pressed to find a slot on a rain team. The only way it could work as a win condition on a team like that is with Belly Drum, but with the terrible defensive synergy it has, it'd be hard pressed to get a Drum off; Even if it did, it certainly wouldn't be unstoppable. A CB set would be just as bad, the moment you run into a team that has a hard counter to Azu, your hyper-offense Rain team now has a pokemon that is effectively a liability, and can't even really function as a pivot due to it's type not complimenting your other mons. It's too easily walled and too inconsistent, especially when compared to threats like SS Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops.

 

So, what about non-Rain teams? Well, it really, really misses the Rain boost, and being pure water type does it no favors. Without the Rain boost, CB Azumarill even gets stalled out by Skarmory, which is just terrible. Yeah, on non-rain teams it at least isn't making the whole "I've got like 4 water types on my team" issue worse, but it's not exactly a great positive. Most non-rain teams are going to want their own bulky waters anyway to deal with Rain, which sucks for Azumarill; Every team is keeping options on hand for dealing with water types like it, both offensively and defensively, meaning that against any decent team, Azumarill is gonna really struggle to get in AND to break through their defensive core. It's resistances really do it no favors; Steel is really uncommon offensively, barring something like Ferrothorn, which Azu would never in a million years want to come in on, Water/Ice are most common from Water types that Azu doesn't want to come in on, since they probably wall it anyway, and if it gets Scald burned it's literally useless, and Fire would only really be seen on Sun teams with Sun up, which can OHKO it with a Solarbeam, outspeed, and even if it Aqua Jets it almost definitely won't OHKO in the sunlight. 

 

At the end of the day, hitting hard just isn't enough. Without the Fairy type, Play Rough, and super-Knock Off, Azumarill struggles to consistently come in, it's coverage is so bad that it's very predictable and walled by a good amount of bulky waters, and there's just... other pokemon that can hit hard. CB gets punished hard even if it does manage to get in and hit something, (assuming the enemy has 0 reliable answers) which is unreliable, and Belly Drum has a hard time setting up, and even if it does, it isn't even close to a guaranteed sweep. It won't even have Rain to make it stronger to fall back on, because honestly, I can't imagine Rain teams bothering with Azumarill, they have way better sweepers/hard hitters to choose from.

 

tl;dr pick up a jellicent or something fuck azu isn't very good guys call me when you get fairies

I miss all of your essays.

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On 11/04/2017 at 7:44 PM, LifeStyle said:

Gengar only had Cursed Body on PTS, I think we're gonna follow Gen7 mechanics when it comes to abilities / movepools

If this is implemented (plz no) will all current Gengar just auto have their ability switched, or would it only be new ones (meaning old Gengars keep levitate)?

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12 minutes ago, Jordzi said:

If this is implemented (plz no) will all current Gengar just auto have their ability switched, or would it only be new ones (meaning old Gengars keep levitate)?

All Gengars would change to Cursed Body

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3 minutes ago, KoolT93 said:

252 Atk Life Orb burned Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 304-359 (116 - 137%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

King of 50/50

Thats assuming we get gen 6 knock off. Which I don't think would be a smart decision as we have no mega stones or z-crystals to counter knock off. Anyway most bisharp ran SD/Sucker/Iron head or Nightslash/Low kick in gen 5. Which have a harder time dealing with WoW gar.

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