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Discussing the upcoming meta.


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16 minutes ago, Toupi said:

Eviolite chansey is for the sissies. True men punch each other wearing assault vest.

We know chansey's gonna be the bane of special sweepers, good thing we'll have choice scarved lucarios and such. c;

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10 hours ago, Tranzmaster said:

 

 

But in the end it will all come down to what will get banned to ubers.

 

Will Garchomp be banned? Probably. 

Then what about TTar and Dragonite? We'll see.

Those potential bans will all influence how dominant another Pokemon gets.

 

Looking forward to it!

I dk if you meant to leave it off this list but I've found in playing so far that mence will probably be too strong. With plenty of Sp att to run fire blast for steel types, the only things that can switch in on that insane outrage, and enough natural bulk and speed to set up on all sorts of stuff, mence is gonna be insane. Maybe not garchomp level, especially considering the weakness to stealth rocks, but next to potentially go IMO assuming we dont end up with gen 1-3 legends

 

Also another cool eviolite chansey calc:

 

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 447-530 (63.4 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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31 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

I dk if you meant to leave it off this list but I've found in playing so far that mence will probably be too strong. With plenty of Sp att to run fire blast for steel types, the only things that can switch in on that insane outrage, and enough natural bulk and speed to set up on all sorts of stuff, mence is gonna be insane. Maybe not garchomp level, especially considering the weakness to stealth rocks, but next to potentially go IMO assuming we dont end up with gen 1-3 legends

 

Also another cool eviolite chansey calc:

 

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 447-530 (63.4 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The problem with Mence is that it has 0 counters much like Hydreigon and Excadrill (Though Exc is fairly more obvious about its sets and weaknesses). They always have a set to deal with their most common checks.

And speaking of which you mentioned yesterday that you didn't think Azumarill was banworthy, which left me thinking about it, however the only counter I can think of is Jellicent, since once Belly Drum's novelty fades away, people will mix it up with stuff like Choice Band, and with Ice Punch, Return and Superpower it can deal a ton of damage to anything that can normally switch into it meaning you have to risk saccing a pokemon, risk it setting up belly drum or risk your switch in.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 139-164 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 164-193 (54.1 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 330-390 (93.7 - 110.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 284-336 (80.6 - 95.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Return vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Amoonguss: 242-285 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 270-318 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 190-225 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 

Then the alternative is letting it kill something and Revenge kill it with something faster that can resist Aqua Jet but even then you'll take upwards of 60% damage in most cases

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 72 HP / 4 Def Venusaur: 184-217 (57.6 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 

And hell in some cases they won't even be able to RK back without taking two Aqua Jets (assuming Azu is Sitrus and it's still at 75% and has some hp investment)

252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 243-286 (61.6 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+5 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 167-197 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

I've yet to conduct a more throughout analysis of this so I may be missing some obvious checks (Skarm can WW away assuming sturdy is intact but still loses 99% of its health to BD superpower and 48% to CB Waterfall). But meanwhile the only way Azu can damage Jellicent is

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 178-210 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- 77.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 192-226 (47.6 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
But a turn later it should be suffering some serious burns (if WoW doesn't miss).
 

But yeah I'm actually curious about why you think it isn't banworthy.

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1 hour ago, suigin said:

 

But yeah I'm actually curious about why you think it isn't banworthy.

The weakness of Azumarill is not that it has a lot of counters, but rather a lot of relevant checks in the meta. The ones I can think of off the top of my head can all take a +6 aqua jet and then kill with their respective moves are, Salamence, Rotom-W, Starmie, Hydreigon, Dragonite, Breloom, Venusaur, and even a bunch of other mons that can live a neutral +6 azu jet at full hp. Almost everything relevant in the tier outspeeds Azu, so Azu is pretty much relying on aqua jet for all of its knockouts, bar superpower for ferrothorn or something like that. Also imo I think Azu also has a pretty hard time setting up in BW bcuz of a bunch of strong stuff that can hit it for 50% on a neutral hit, and it doesn't have fairy typing to resist a bunch of stuff. (Notably fighting, bug, dark). Also IMO, there is a bunch of other scarier setup sweepers like DD mence, DD gyara, SD scizor, SD chomp, CM Reuni etc.

 

Not saying that Azu is bad tho, its only true counters are jellicent, some gyarados variants, and gastrodon. But I don't think that it is close to banworthy.

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14 hours ago, suigin said:

If Baton Pass gets unbanned in a meta where it's much more deadly with Scolipede, Magic Bounce Espeon and moves like Quiver Dance being introduced then I'll probably die of laughter.

Well it was originally banned for it's slow switching capabilities iirc, the fact it passed boosts was just icing on the cake. With Volt-turn coming in Baton pass' only benefit would be to pass boosts and substitutes. Wouldn't surprise me at all to see it unbanned, or at the very least tested

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7 hours ago, epicdavenport said:

Tyranitar as a wall?

252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 132-156 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 
It's always a good pivot into special attackers when you're still at a lot of health. Not a wall though I agree.
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I just don't want knee-jerk reaction bans, if Baton pass is unbanned for testing but seems stupidly strong please WAIT to see if people can make counters and techs against it that work efficiently, instead of banning it fast because people complain in the first day or three.

 

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4 hours ago, pachima said:

When ppl post a calc of +3 reuniclus just to prove chansey can be taken down.

On another note: Gen isnt even upon us and pp already thinking about walls smh .

 

Reuniclus is one of the few special pokemon that can set up on Chansey without worrying about Toxic, Seismic Toss and Thunder Wave and doesn't give free turns like resttalk jolteon memes.

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49 minutes ago, suigin said:

Reuniclus is one of the few special pokemon that can set up on Chansey without worrying about Toxic, Seismic Toss and Thunder Wave and doesn't give free turns like resttalk jolteon memes.

 

tru, but monopsychic is always awful to set up

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