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[UU Discussion] Golem


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2 hours ago, Havsha said:

Very easily pursuit trapped too, and has no reliable access to healing moves

Latter part is true but I'm not so sure about the Pursuit trapping part, Claydol's defense is enormous and unless it's very low HP there's no reason Absol should try to Pursuit trap Claydol because it can just eat the Pursuit and Signal Beam back. I'm actually surprised Claydol isn't more used, it's actually a very decent Pokemon but I guess it's because there are tons of better defensive Pokemon and that results in Claydol getting no use.

 

Waiting for incoming comments on how I'm arguing Golem to be checked by NU and about how I claim that Golem should be kept in the tier only because Claydol exists but if you think of it, it's insanely good counter to Golem. People should just stop using Claydol traditionally and start to come up with more creative sets for it to be effective (Rest Chesto, Trick Specs, you name it)

 

Edited by OrangeManiac
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15 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

Latter part is true but I'm not so sure about the Pursuit trapping part, Claydol's defense is enormous and unless it's very low HP there's no reason Absol should try to Pursuit trap Claydol because it can just eat the Pursuit and Signal Beam back. I'm actually surprised Claydol isn't more used, it's actually a very decent Pokemon but I guess it's because there are tons of better defensive Pokemon and that results in Claydol getting no use.

 

Waiting for incoming comments on how I'm arguing Golem to be checked by NU and about how I claim that Golem should be kept in the tier only because Claydol exists but if you think of it, it's insanely good counter to Golem. People should just stop using Claydol traditionally and start to come up with more creative sets for it to be effective (Rest Chesto, Trick Specs, you name it)

 

Its Claydol's offense that sucks, which is why it isn't used. Compared to UU's walls, it's just so passive. It's a spinner indeed, but what good is that if it can't break spin blockers. It can't even force out normal spikers such as omastar, cacturne, roselia, glalie.  Claydol also gets walled all day by most of UU's walls especially if it lacks Toxic. Such examples include Clefable, Meganium, Scizor (all sets bar hp fire), Altaria (all sets bar icebeam), Slowking etc. It also suffers from 4MSS - Psychic / EQ / Signal Beam / Rapid Spin / Trick / Calm Mind / HP Fire / Toxic / Rest etc.

 

I've run a CM HP Fire set on Claydol but then it gets walled by Absol, Sharpedo, Curse Cradily, Crawdaunt etc. Without hp fire, Scizor shreks it and you need to have magnemite to offer support. I don't think asking people to use Claydol "non traditionally" gives rise to actually much better sets. Lead Claydols are the only ones that carry Trick and at that point it becomes really predictable to know what set it runs. The only set I can find being more useful is a speedy set with screens that can offer support to offensive teams. which I will definitely give a try. But other than that, there aren't many options for the players to choose from and I don't think we can blame the players for "not thinking outside the box". 

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15 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Its Claydol's offense that sucks, which is why it isn't used. Compared to UU's walls, it's just so passive. It's a spinner indeed, but what good is that if it can't break spin blockers. It can't even force out normal spikers such as omastar, cacturne, roselia, glalie.  Claydol also gets walled all day by most of UU's walls especially if it lacks Toxic. Such examples include Clefable, Meganium, Scizor (all sets bar hp fire), Altaria (all sets bar icebeam), Slowking etc. It also suffers from 4MSS - Psychic / EQ / Signal Beam / Rapid Spin / Trick / Calm Mind / HP Fire / Toxic / Rest etc.

 

I've run a CM HP Fire set on Claydol but then it gets walled by Absol, Sharpedo, Curse Cradily, Crawdaunt etc. Without hp fire, Scizor shreks it and you need to have magnemite to offer support. I don't think asking people to use Claydol "non traditionally" gives rise to actually much better sets. Lead Claydols are the only ones that carry Trick and at that point it becomes really predictable to know what set it runs. The only set I can find being more useful is a speedy set with screens that can offer support to offensive teams. which I will definitely give a try. But other than that, there aren't many options for the players to choose from and I don't think we can blame the players for "not thinking outside the box". 

 

I actually finished an offensive claydol yesterday, and I can guarantee what you just said is not true.

While it´s true, its offense is still shabby, with the set im currently working on, only slowking and clefable can wall it effectively (out of those you listed)

Also, if you don´t really care about apid spin and u forego it, it really doesn´t suffer from 4MSS.

Again, I won´t say its a top tier pokemon, cause it isn´t, but its far from the uselessness you all are imbuing to him.

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9 minutes ago, pachima said:

I actually finished an offensive claydol yesterday, and I can guarantee what you just said is not true.

While it´s true, its offense is still shabby, with the set im currently working on, only slowking and clefable can wall it effectively (out of those you listed)

Also, if you don´t really care about apid spin and u forego it, it really doesn´t suffer from 4MSS.

Again, I won´t say its a top tier pokemon, cause it isn´t, but its far from the uselessness you all are imbuing to him.

I'm very much looking forward to seeing this offensive claydol. But there are quite a few other walls in UU, such as Quagsire and Vaporeon. With an offensive set, it is by no means able to act as a defensive pivot and that makes it more vulnerable to pursuit trapping. It still suffers from 4 MSS even if I forego Spin because there are several other options as I've listed:

"Psychic / EQ / Signal Beam / Trick / Calm Mind / HP Fire / Toxic / Rest"

 

If your offensive set is special invested psychic / icebeam / sig beam / hp fire, then add Miltank + Cradily to the list of pokemon that you're walled by. If you can pull off an actual viable set on Claydol then do show it to us. My description on how bad Claydol is mostly from my own experience tbh. 

Edited by NikhilR
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Just now, NikhilR said:

I'm very much looking forward to seeing this offensive claydol. But there are quite a few other walls in UU, such as Quagsire and Vaporeon. With an offensive set, it is by no means able to act as a defensive pivot and that makes it more vulnerable to pursuit trapping. It still suffers from 4 MSS even if I forego Spin because there are several other options as I've listed:

"Psychic / EQ / Signal Beam / Trick / Calm Mind / HP Fire / Toxic / Rest"

 

If your offensive set is special invested psychic / icebeam / sig beam / eq, then add Miltank + Cradily to the list of pokemon that you're walled by. If you can pull off an actual viable set on Claydol then do show it to us. My description on how bad Claydol is mostly from my own experience tbh. 

 

dont get me wrong, claydol is not meant to sweep anyway (And I should have mentioned bulky offensive). It´s also walled by a lot of pokemons (Fortunately most of them are not that used, which is a big plus)

Anyway, out of those moves, hidden power fire is not really needed (You can beat scizor without it, unless its careful 252 hp/sp def one with morning sun) Toxic is meh, unless u rly hate slowking (Clefable and Meganium being common switches to it kinda ruins toxic for it)

Rest + calm mind is probably the set that lacks coverage by a lot, so I´m not consider it. Im not too confident about claydol , but I´m not rly into it, so I cant tell for sure.

What is left is: psychic, signal, trick, rest, calm mind(And two more moves I don´t want yet to spoil)

In sum, while it can be true claydol could prove to be much more useful with other moves, some of them are much better in paper than in reality (Toxic for instance- You don´t want to lose a turn to get aromad, heal beller by two of your switches.) You can work around really well with only 4.

I´ve been struggling a lot to how much speed should claydol have and imo, its one of his biggest drawbacks (You cant make it fast enough and very bulky at the same time) Still, 75 base speed is enough to outspeed a lot of UU sweepers, since most are slow.

Lastly, I guess the tier itself is more of an advantage for claydol than claydol itself, since it can be a great check for some highly used pokemons (Golem, manectric, hitmonlee, Scizor at some point(Even without hp fire, although it helps a lot), some crobat sets, bla bla bla).

Maybe im commiting a mistake by considering it good because its good against most of the 15 more used pokemons in the tier, while some not so used can wall it completely, but that´s my way of seeing stuff.

Back on topic. The problem with golem is that it relies too much on rock blast to beat some of his checks. I guess the ban(or not) should be focused in how much relying in such move is worth or not. (U can say its stallbreaking abilities are overpowered, but stab eq with so many resists being his spammable move, rock blast being unreliable, speed being a big needle in his ass, and 2 common x4 weaknesses are really detrimental.

Sry for my english, dont really feel like to double check this text.

 

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12 minutes ago, pachima said:

dont get me wrong, claydol is not meant to sweep anyway (And I should have mentioned bulky offensive). It´s also walled by a lot of pokemons (Fortunately most of them are not that used, which is a big plus)

Anyway, out of those moves, hidden power fire is not really needed (You can beat scizor without it, unless its careful 252 hp/sp def one with morning sun) Toxic is meh, unless u rly hate slowking (Clefable and Meganium being common switches to it kinda ruins toxic for it)

Rest + calm mind is probably the set that lacks coverage by a lot, so I´m not consider it. Im not too confident about claydol , but I´m not rly into it, so I cant tell for sure.

What is left is: psychic, signal, trick, rest, calm mind(And two more moves I don´t want yet to spoil)

In sum, while it can be true claydol could prove to be much more useful with other moves, some of them are much better in paper than in reality (Toxic for instance- You don´t want to lose a turn to get aromad, heal beller by two of your switches.) You can work around really well with only 4.

I´ve been struggling a lot to how much speed should claydol have and imo, its one of his biggest drawbacks (You cant make it fast enough and very bulky at the same time) Still, 75 base speed is enough to outspeed a lot of UU sweepers, since most are slow.

Lastly, I guess the tier itself is more of an advantage for claydol than claydol itself, since it can be a great check for some highly used pokemons (Golem, manectric, hitmonlee, Scizor at some point(Even without hp fire, although it helps a lot), some crobat sets, bla bla bla).

Maybe im commiting a mistake by considering it good because its good against most of the 15 more used pokemons in the tier, while some not so used can wall it completely, but that´s my way of seeing stuff.

Back on topic. The problem with golem is that it relies too much on rock blast to beat some of his checks. I guess the ban(or not) should be focused in how much relying in such move is worth or not. (U can say its stallbreaking abilities are overpowered, but stab eq with so many resists being his spammable move, rock blast being unreliable, speed being a big needle in his ass, and 2 common x4 weaknesses are really detrimental.

Sry for my english, dont really feel like to double check this text.

 

Inb4 HP Ground Claydol :) But anyways I'm still interested in seeing this Claydol in action. Claydol is a really good pivot or a switch in for a lot of the UU pokes as you've mentioned, but it doesn't really have any form of punishing the other user when they switch out the pokemon that is walled by it. For me that is the main drawback of it, which is why I consider it passive. 

 

For me Golem's dual stabs + sturdy is the main concern as to why it's almost broken. It's hard to know what characteristic under which to ban it. Golem can break something like Meganium or whichever the main defensive wall is on your opponent's side and then pave the way for other offensive mons. You're right that Rock Blast can be unreliable, but thanks to sturdy Golem isn't punished much if the first RB just hits twice. 

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22 minutes ago, MknsZblex said:

Bold chimeco with wish protect or lead Cacturne bullet seed can counter ez Grolem i think

252 Atk Choice Band Golem Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chimecho: 75-93 (41.2 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

A bit unreliable, considering you're screwed if it gets more than 3 hits, and since chimecho can't actually ko golem, golem is free to spam rock blast until it gets that 4 hit to gg chimecho. 

 

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

I would say my main issue with golem is that it incentivizes the use of meganium almost too much. Meganium was pretty decent before golem gained popularity, as it was a pretty nice combination of vileplume and bellossom, along with a nice speed stat, which allowed it to be a cleric, outspeed and gg crawdaunt, counter scizor fairly reliably, become a solid ground resist, and be a surprisingly decent mixed wall. But now, I find there's hardly any reason not to run meganium since it deals with so many of the common threats, while tentacruel has departed from the tier, one of the better switch ins to non eq meganium. I'm not saying meganium is an issue on its own, since it has a lot of flaws, but the cycle of running golem and meganium causes the tier to be a bit centralizing around them. 

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14 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

Latter part is true but I'm not so sure about the Pursuit trapping part, Claydol's defense is enormous and unless it's very low HP there's no reason Absol should try to Pursuit trap Claydol because it can just eat the Pursuit and Signal Beam back. I'm actually surprised Claydol isn't more used, it's actually a very decent Pokemon but I guess it's because there are tons of better defensive Pokemon and that results in Claydol getting no use.

 

Well, that alone offers another risk for claydol, if it stays im, it may risk being hit by a banded megahorn from absol, dedge from swellow, ice punch from sneasel, now I know these probably wont ohko, but thats huge pressure on claydol already, on my phone can't calc, and with no access to heals, you may be saying good bye to your golem check, unless you can win the 50/50 predictions

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As promised. ;)

 

First, about Golem itself. Let's take a look at the UU tier. Outside of Meganium, literally nothing can switch in and scare Golem off. Exeggutor is much slower and requires a lot of speed investment to outspeed Golem which then will take away the necessary bulk. Golem can stay in, sac it's Sturdy to break an important wall or kill a sweeper. It's sole presence pushes everyone to keep Meganium in every single match, otherwise each time Golem is out, you will gamble with lives of your pokemons or just end up sacking something to break sturdy and then finish the rock off. Meganium is a really solid and heavily used wall in itself, but Golem's growing popularity tackles the usage of other pokes because Meganium just *has* to be in your team regardless of what playstyle you prefer.

I don't think I have to give any damage calcs here- Golem is capable of 2shoting everything in the UU tier with Rock Blast/ EQ combination. Imo, this really does qualify as an offensive uber.

 

Now, against the Claydol argument...

I don't believe that bringing an argument of an incredibly unviable pokemon in the tier as a possible counter for Golem is convincing. There is a reason why Claydol is not used in UU- it's just incredibly weak, the fact that grass types in UU are incredibly common already makes Claydol unviable. Unlike the move of Tenta into OU, where outside of countering Venusaur it also deals with Sceptile and offers spin support, whereas Claydol would be used only to stop Golem. It sure has a big movepool but it will suffer a huge 4mss, it will not be used as a spinner for sure (let's see the viable UU spikers: Cacturne, Omastar, Roselia, Qwilfish, Glalie- do you see what I see?) and it's sole reason of usage will be to stop Golem. Outside of it, it is pretty much useless. And due to the fact that Golem will outspeed it, it will have to stay all the time at least above 50%+ HP, which will be difficult considering the fact that it has no reliable recovery.

So no, Claydol is not an argument agaisnt Golem staying in the tier. If it would be that good in stopping it, it would be already used more often.

 

And finally, the argument about stall being so dominant without Golem.

I don't really understand this argument. Let's take a look at the tier: Nidoking, Exegg, Jynx, Omastar, Azu, Crawdaunt, Sharpedo and most importantly Curse + Rest Cradily, are few of most powerful anti-stall tools available. Getting rid of Golem does not mean that we will not have enough offensive tools in the tier to make someone's life a gamble, Golem is just ridiculously easy to use- send it out as lead and spam rock blast or EQ. That's so skill-less I can barely describe, if a pokemon is capable of carrying literally only 2 moves to create such a mess in the tier, then something is really wrong.

 

Again, I am going to repeat myself for like 10th time, the fact that UU is stally is not because of the pokes that are in the tier, but because of the players who play it. Argument of Golem being our main anti-stall tool is just ridiculous especially because it pushes people into playing stall, with Meganium being the core member of the teams.

 

Any more questions?

Edited by RysPicz
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31 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

As promised. ;)

 

First, about Golem itself. Let's take a look at the UU tier. Outside of Meganium, literally nothing can switch in and scare Golem off. Exeggutor is much slower and requires a lot of speed investment to outspeed Golem which then will take away the necessary bulk. Golem can stay in, sac it's Sturdy to break an important wall or kill a sweeper. It's sole presence pushes everyone to keep Meganium in every single match, otherwise each time Golem is out, you will gamble with lives of your pokemons or just end up sacking something to break sturdy and then finish the rock off. Meganium is a really solid and heavily used wall in itself, but Golem's growing popularity tackles the usage of other pokes because Meganium just *has* to be in your team regardless of what playstyle you prefer.

I don't think I have to give any damage calcs here- Golem is capable of 2shoting everything in the UU tier with Rock Blast/ EQ combination. Imo, this really does qualify as an offensive uber.

Okay so I agree with most of what you said but got a few things I'd like to say. Golem had like 16% usage and meganium 22% usage. This in and on itself doesn't really seem centralizing. I have seen a lot of teams without meganium and playing around golem.

 

But with the tentacruel move their usage might rise a bit. Although with the tentacruel move one of the best spinners in UU got moved aswell. Making spikes way more viable and are able to breaks golems sturdy upon switch in. When you say you can 2hko the entire tier with eq/blast you do have to keep in mind that you're choice locked. Needing you to switch out. Sure there will be 50/50s to be made but thats pokemon.

 

Really I don't think Golem is banworthy yet. Although I would like to see this months usage to see how the tier does without tenta.

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55 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

First, about Golem itself. Let's take a look at the UU tier. Outside of Meganium, literally nothing can switch in and scare Golem off. Exeggutor is much slower and requires a lot of speed investment to outspeed Golem which then will take away the necessary bulk. Golem can stay in, sac it's Sturdy to break an important wall or kill a sweeper. It's sole presence pushes everyone to keep Meganium in every single match, otherwise each time Golem is out, you will gamble with lives of your pokemons or just end up sacking something to break sturdy and then finish the rock off. Meganium is a really solid and heavily used wall in itself, but Golem's growing popularity tackles the usage of other pokes because Meganium just *has* to be in your team regardless of what playstyle you prefer.

I don't think I have to give any damage calcs here- Golem is capable of 2shoting everything in the UU tier with Rock Blast/ EQ combination. Imo, this really does qualify as an offensive uber.

I don't think Golem fits the offensive uber criteria. It just cant sweep through teams. Its too slow and there are multiple pokemon it can't ohko. It's difficult to switch in because sturdy is what makes golem so threatening and to preserve it you can't be switching it in willy-nilly. Golem's popularity actually went down last month, from 18.95% in February to 15.78% in March. It makes it hard to call a pokemon centralizing when it has 16% usage (ik you didnt specifically state you thought it was centralizing but it seemed implied).

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Don't play a lot of uu but wouldn't spikes ruin golems day? Or are there not enough reliable spin blockers.

 

edit: I guess you guys don't have a lot of reliable spikers now that I think about it.

Edited by Otulp
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14 minutes ago, Toast said:

Tbh i dont know how i feel about golem but the spikes argument could go both ways, makes it stronger and significantly weaker because loss of sturdy and itll probably need to switch out a lot. Stronger cause well spikes 

Yeah that's true. With spikes im sure golem can shred slower teams. What does golem hit with jolly, 106? And do people run scarf golem? But yeah if you don't have a faster mon that can ohko I guess spikes are useless anyways.

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  • 2 months later...

Wow I forgot about this thread. I'll first copy my own post from UU discussion thread:

 

On 6/16/2017 at 6:35 PM, RysPicz said:

I do not think the main problem with Golem is how slow it is. Not at all. It is actually speedy enough, outspeeding 90% of UU walls (excluding Kanga, Miltank and of course Meganiums). I think the problem with Golem is not sturdy itself but the amount of switch-ins it has and every time it switches in, it deals a shitton of damage. Unless you run Meganium, which is seen in almost every higher-ranked UU match. Tier is horribly centralized around Golem currently, surely Meganium is a great wall on it's own but the recent usage movements (well, Tenta) and Golem's presence only boast it's already high usage (31%, compared to like what, 16? a while ago).

It's not even about Golem lead, it's about Golem itself. It's not about sturdy, it's about it's ability of repeadetly coming into battle and deal massive damage with it's 120-base atk powered STAB Earthquake and Rock Blast.

Let's take a peek at the last UU official (29.05, wooper prize). Turn 8, Golem is out on a CB- return locked Swellow. It's out and right away starts beating the shit out of BlueBreath, given only an opportunity to switch in. Why it does? Because Blue did not run Meganium. Furthermore, enchanteur obviously has a Meganium of his own.

 

I saw people started running a bullet weed (xddddddddddddddddd) leads for an anti-golem lead, which only proves my point of centralization, however the main problem here is that yeah, you did scare away the Golem, but it will come back and if you do not have a Meganium, it will beat the shit out of you. Over and over.

 

I started seeing people using Golem in OU (and I use it myself kek), maybe it'll get moved up next month due to usage. At least I hope.

 

 

On 3/22/2017 at 11:15 AM, TheChampionMike said:

Okay so I agree with most of what you said but got a few things I'd like to say. Golem had like 16% usage and meganium 22% usage. This in and on itself doesn't really seem centralizing. I have seen a lot of teams without meganium and playing around golem.

 

But with the tentacruel move their usage might rise a bit. Although with the tentacruel move one of the best spinners in UU got moved aswell. Making spikes way more viable and are able to breaks golems sturdy upon switch in. When you say you can 2hko the entire tier with eq/blast you do have to keep in mind that you're choice locked. Needing you to switch out. Sure there will be 50/50s to be made but thats pokemon.

 

Really I don't think Golem is banworthy yet. Although I would like to see this months usage to see how the tier does without tenta.

Now Golem has 21, and Meganium 31% usage. And it's rising- for both of them. In the course of 3 months, Golem went up by 5% and Meganium by 9 (although Tenta's move up also had impact on this).

Like I mentioned in my post in UU discussion thread, Sturdy is Golem's huge selling point but as a lead. It functions incredibly well in UU even the sturdy is lost, as it has switch-in opportunities, proven in the finals fight I have also mentioned in the older post.

On 3/22/2017 at 0:06 PM, DaftCoolio said:

I don't think Golem fits the offensive uber criteria. It just cant sweep through teams. Its too slow and there are multiple pokemon it can't ohko. It's difficult to switch in because sturdy is what makes golem so threatening and to preserve it you can't be switching it in willy-nilly. Golem's popularity actually went down last month, from 18.95% in February to 15.78% in March. It makes it hard to call a pokemon centralizing when it has 16% usage (ik you didnt specifically state you thought it was centralizing but it seemed implied).

It doesn't really have to sweep. TTar is an offensive uber- it is also slow and requires not one but two dragon dances to actually sweep (and even then, jolly scarf Flygon still outspeeds). Just every time it is out, it deals massive amount of damage on anything that decides to switch into it. You are right- there are multiple pokemon which it cannot OHKO, but almost all of them can (and most likely will) get 2hkod, and this includes the most sturdy and reliable UU walls, such as Scizor (fire punch OHKOs actually), Exegg and Slowking, meaning they can't really switch in, risking the kill.

As for Golem's usage, it did went up and it's still rising.

On 3/22/2017 at 2:13 PM, Otulp said:

Don't play a lot of uu but wouldn't spikes ruin golems day? Or are there not enough reliable spin blockers.

 

edit: I guess you guys don't have a lot of reliable spikers now that I think about it.

Not really, spikes do not really matter because you will not set them up in turn 1. Sturdy is Golem's selling point as a lead, but it's as powerful without Sturdy in later stages of the match.

 

 

Pls ban, I really don't feel like running Meganium in every single match just because of this.

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I'll give now my point about it, in my last PSL match I faced a Golem lead (surprise surprise) and I had no meganium (my team wasn't made to last but to get ride of my opponent fast) but I lead crobat with giga drain, sacked it and made sure golem didn't come back again pursuit trapping it, this was in this battle, but everytime I think about building something and I don't want to use meganium there are only strategies like those that can take care of golem, yeah sure you can lead cacturne but that doesn't mean it can come back again and keep punishing for not having a reliable wall to its attacks, so I feel there are ways to deal with it, but it's too centralizing right now, there's no way you can build a team without plugging meganium in your team or having to trapping it so it can't come back again and make you feel miserable for not using meganium.

 

Claydol is excellent against Golem but if your opponent doesn't have one is such a dead weight, which is not the case with meganium that it has some utility besides walling Golem.

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6 minutes ago, BlackJovi said:

Only the fact that you have to run meganium in your team to not get destroyed by golem, or the fact that you have to run such counter measures to not get rekt by a lead golem like arimanius said is pretty cancer, idk how some people in the TC can not see this

It doesn't really fit any of the uber characteristics, unless you have some sort of argument that a 106 speed golem sweeps a majority of the metagame. So we've been discussing the last couple months whether UU is centralized around golem but its usage was never that problematic (always under 20%) and meganium is good enough to use regardless. In fact, we need to stop focusing so much on meganium's usage because I'm pretty positive that even if we test ban golem, we won't see much (if any) drop in meganiums usage, REGARDLESS of whether golem is actually unhealthy or not.

 

Now golem's usage has increased, and those who keep uguuing that TC wont ban golem finally found the discussion thread they were supposed to be using for 3 months, so we'll take another whack at it at the next TC meeting later this month. I do think it's kinda strange that for a while people complained UU was too wally, and now everyone is all gung ho about banning the tier's best wallbreaker. I get the argument that it's unhealthy but I'm just saying

Edited by Gunthug
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