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The next generation is ...


Toupi

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29 minutes ago, Bestfriends said:

I am fine with PokeMMO introducing new moves, but I cannot bare the thought of new pokemon being implemented in our Gen 3 atmosphere.

 

It depends on the progress your talking about. Here are progressive things I support:

 

1. Implementation of all Gen 1-3 legendaries just for our dex.

2. Trick Room, Pyramid, Dome, and Pike being implemented

3. Battle tower in Hoenn being accessible (the one north of Mauville)

 

If the "progress" your referring to is "new pokemon", then I am against that because its like Back to the Future. I do not want to explain the story again, so I am going to quote myself...

When I ask people (particularly new players) "why are you here", most of them respond (talking about the english speakers, not the spanish speakers) "to get away from the newer stuff that pokemon has to offer and be with my gf, fiancee, or wife in sprite form." We are the vocal minority, but there is a silent majority who do not go on forums to explain their side of the story.

What is the difference, in your mind, between new moves and new pokemon? Why doesn't your "back to the future" analogy apply to gen 3 moves too?

 

Also, why do you believe that all progress will be stopped on gen 1-3 legendaries, trick room/pyramid/dome/pike, and battle tower in Hoenn?

 

I know you aren't very familiar with competitive pokemon, so I won't fully address the many flaws in your argument there. I'll just say that this is only a gen 3 atmosphere because we lack gen 4 pokemon and moves - it is not by choice. The "well the people I talk to say this" argument is really, really, really bad because you have no idea how big your sample size is and how representative it is of the overall opinion. You can claim there's a silent majority (keeping with your insistence on making everything a backwards political reference) but you actually have no idea. There could be a silent majority of people who are WAITING for gen 4 pokemon before they play this game.

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40 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

1. What is the difference, in your mind, between new moves and new pokemon? Why doesn't your "back to the future" analogy apply to gen 3 moves too?

 

2. Also, why do you believe that all progress will be stopped on gen 1-3 legendaries, trick room/pyramid/dome/pike, and battle tower in Hoenn?

 

3. I know you aren't very familiar with competitive pokemon, so I won't fully address the many flaws in your argument there. I'll just say that this is only a gen 3 atmosphere because we lack gen 4 pokemon and moves - it is not by choice. The "well the people I talk to say this" argument is really, really, really bad because you have no idea how big your sample size is and how representative it is of the overall opinion. You can claim there's a silent majority (keeping with your insistence on making everything a backwards political reference) but you actually have no idea. There could be a silent majority of people who are WAITING for gen 4 pokemon before they play this game.

Your quite the debater, so let me put on my game face...

 

1. Moves and pokemon are two different concepts. Newer moves won't make as much of a dent as new pokemon. If Brave Bird was implemented for example, how will that dent the competitive atmosphere? Maybe it could make Swellow hit harder, but overall, it won't be as big as implementing Garchamp. You can argue that "PokeMMO needs to progress with the times. They need to implement Infernape, Blazekin stinks!" How about people who want the nostalgic audience, are you saying that they shouldn't matter? The Back to the Future example applies to new pokemon because those are newer species and you can teach a dog new moves. A dog (pokemon A) can learn such and such, but your saying that we should overwhelm the older dogs with newer dogs.

 

2. I do not believe progress should stop there, but the development team could focus on changes that focus on the multiplayer aspects of PokeMMO like my Link Skype suggestion.

 

3. To be honest, I have a fair understanding of the competitive world of PokeMMO, but I do not grasp the competitive world of Pokemon. If I couldn't understand the competitive world of PokeMMO, then I cannot do commentaries on tournaments. If you want to help advance my learning in the competitive atmosphere of PokeMMO, feel free to commentate with me, the invitation is on me.

 

I am taking Statistics, should I am going to include a lot of statistical jargon:

 

Here is what I did, I was a poll sampler and I sampled almost every english speaker I can find. Out of that sample about 70% of them told me they would like PokeMMO to keep on with Gen 3, 20% were supportive of a change, and 10% are neutral about it. As you may know, there is going to be some sort of bias in polling, but I try my best to weed out the bias, so I ask people off the street. Your probably going to cite the forums poll, but I am going to say that this poll has bias too. Its implying that all PokeMMO players have a forums account. Thus, that poll has a bias. My sampling technique is more "on the ground" and forums sampling is more "in the air." Based upon my results, my hypothesis is that there are a fair amount of newer players who do not favour a change for the exception of legendaries. My sampling techinque is SRS or Simple Random Sampling and also english speakers, so it might be that the english newer players don't want change, but the spanish newer players want the change. Sampling cannot prevent error.

 

Spoiler

Its a pleasure hearing the counter arguments. I look forward to debating more of them, I feel that debating is an important aspect of a free society.

 

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Just now, Moetal said:

More pointless debates that means little or goes no where. I love these threads

But, pointless debates do help the world go round. New ideas can be introduced to the development team and they can decide who has a better excuse as to why they should implement or fix such and such.

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3 minutes ago, Bestfriends said:

Your quite the debater, so let me put on my game face...

 

1. Moves and pokemon are two different concepts. Newer moves won't make as much of a dent as new pokemon. If Brave Bird was implemented for example, how will that dent the competitive atmosphere? Maybe it could make Swellow hit harder, but overall, it won't be as big as implementing Garchamp. You can argue that "PokeMMO needs to progress with the times. They need to implement Infernape, Blazekin stinks!" How about people who want the nostalgic audience, are you saying that they shouldn't matter? The Back to the Future example applies to new pokemon because those are newer species and you can teach a dog new moves. A dog (pokemon A) can learn such and such, but your saying that we should overwhelm the older dogs with newer dogs.

 

2. I do not believe progress should stop there, but the development team could focus on changes that focus on the multiplayer aspects of PokeMMO like my Link Skype suggestion.

 

3. To be honest, I have a fair understanding of the competitive world of PokeMMO, but I do not grasp the competitive world of Pokemon. If I couldn't understand the competitive world of PokeMMO, then I cannot do commentaries on tournaments. If you want to help advance my learning in the competitive atmosphere of PokeMMO, feel free to commentate with me, the invitation is on me.

 

I am taking Statistics, should I am going to include a lot of statistical jargon:

 

Here is what I did, I was a poll sampler and I sampled almost every english speaker I can find. Out of that sample about 70% of them told me they would like PokeMMO to keep on with Gen 3, 20% were supportive of a change, and 10% are neutral about it. As you may know, there is going to be some sort of bias in polling, but I try my best to weed out the bias, so I ask people off the street. Your probably going to cite the forums poll, but I am going to say that this poll has bias too. Its implying that all PokeMMO players have a forums account. Thus, that poll has a bias. My sampling technique is more "on the ground" and forums sampling is more "in the air." Based upon my results, my hypothesis is that there are a fair amount of newer players who do not favour a change for the exception of legendaries. My sampling techinque is SRS or Simple Random Sampling and also english speakers, so it might be that the english newer players don't want change, but the spanish newer players want the change. Sampling cannot prevent error.

 

  Hide contents

Its a pleasure hearing the counter arguments. I look forward to debating more of them, I feel that debating is an important aspect of a free society.

 

Well, I never turn down a good argument, bestfriends, especially about gen 4 the greatest competitive gen of all time. So I'm not hiding the fact that I'm biased here. That being said, your stated way of viewing the situation is just disconnected from reality. We don't pass up on a chance to upgrade our game simply because some people like things the way they are. That's not how the world works. Allow me to make an argument why adding gen 4 pokemon and currently unobtainable legendaries from gens 1-4 would have a massively positive impact on our competitive scene:

 

Some of the most famous pokemon in generation 3 history are currently stuck up in Ubers right now. Why? Because we simply lack the proper tools to handle them with our limited pokemon pool. Ever since choice band was implemented, pokemon like Salamence, Dragonite, and Tyranitar have been extremely difficult to counter/check, and have spent very little time actually available for OU competitive players. So how can you say we have a gen 3 atmosphere, when three of the most pivotal pokemon from generation 3 are essentially useless? Not to mention all the other gen 3 staples we dont have access to, like jirachi, suicune, and celebi.

 

With the introduction of gen 4 pokemon, and/or legendaries, we can finally see these formerly banished mons come back to OU and spice up the game again. Isn't that worth leaving behind something we've gotten to enjoy for many years already now?

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10 hours ago, Bestfriends said:

Wow Gen 4 is 10 years old, your really aging me, but they are facts.....

 

I believe PokeMMO is a good game without the newer Pokemon added (I am still wanting Gen 1-3 legendaries for dex entries). I feel that the devs' attention once focused on giving us access to all the gen 3 pokes for our dex and completed the rest of Hoenn, then they could be focusing on things to enhance our experience like my Link Skype suggestion, Notepad suggestion, etc.

 

The demographic I am referring to are the newer players I chat with. You may ask, why am I chatting with newer players, they are way out of your league. Lets just say, that I help some newer players, garner their trust, and then advertise my YouTube channels.

 

Onto your other question, I do not think it's going to be a good idea to throw in Gen 4 pokemon in a Gen 3 setting (it feels funny). I have a gut feeling that you had not watched the movie "Back to the Future", man I feel so old. Let me tell you the concept of the movie and how it applies to my point, there is a kid and a mad scientist and they travel back in time with an exotic car that drives into a time portal. The son then finds his Dad back in high school stalking his mom, but the son accidentally meets his high school aged mom (I hope your following along, this will fit into my example). The mom falls in love with the son and he tries everything possible to break up the relationship with the mom (watch the movie for a conclusion, I am not spoiling it). How does this movie apply to my Pokemon example? Think of your Gen 4-7 pokemon like the son and Kanto and Hoenn are both like the mom. The dad is the gen 1-3 pokemon. Let the Dad and Mom fall in love.

 

When I mean the "good ole times," I am not referring to the competitive combos. I am referring to "gameplay nostalgia." People want to remember their childhood by not even thinking about the later gens and how they apply to PokeMMO. There is a reason why Nintendo released FireRed/Leafgreen, Heartgold/Soulsilver, and Omega Ruby/Alpha Sapphire. Nintendo knew that they can market on people's feelings for that generation. In FireRed and LeafGreen, they didn't throw in any Gen 3 pokes except for Deoxys at Birth Island. If PokeMMO decides to throw in newer gens, they might lose some of their playerbase. The Corporate World and PokeMMO are similar in that they don't want to do something that would "scare off consumers."

 

 

In summary, I feel it is not a good idea for PokeMMO to introduce new pokemon. It could ruin the experience of a lot of players who may not want to move to another generation. The dev team can't just say "tough luck" because that's a demographic they are shutting off. Business wise, I feel that PokeMMO should have Gen 3 pokemon with Gen 4 comp items and Gen 6 move pools (I am kind of restating @Xatu's point).

 

When you get the plot of Back to the Future told to you smh.

It not "feeling right" is not an argument. Like I said, if you don't like the new generation, don't interact with it. If you want to play gen3 without your brain crossing wires and making you think about how gen4 changed everything you're already in a pretty bad spot since MMO already implemented a lot of gen4 stuff specially the split already.

"They might lose some of their playerbase" is also a really bad argument since you can also say they might gain a ton of new players wanting to play a newer gen online. in the end if you're playing MMO for nostalgia value, good for you, but the real charm of MMO is basically being able to play Pokemon with other people online, right now it's gen3 only but never was it said that it'd stay gen3 only, people just assumed it because of rom limitations.

 

To any of this silent playerbase reading this. If MMO adds a new gen, don't downright quit. Continue to play, stick to Hoenn and Kanto only if you feel like it, and just try to bear when someone links their Gallade in chat and imagine it's someone talking about Jumpeon, besides that you wouldn't be interacting with newer mons at all, if after a week it becomes too painful to bear then yeah quit and make sure you let everyone in the forums know that a newer gen mixed with gen3 was akin to incest for you maybe you'll get Kyu to change it back.

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27 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

Well, I never turn down a good argument, bestfriends, especially about gen 4 the greatest competitive gen of all time. So I'm not hiding the fact that I'm biased here. That being said, your stated way of viewing the situation is just disconnected from reality. We don't pass up on a chance to upgrade our game simply because some people like things the way they are. That's not how the world works. Allow me to make an argument why adding gen 4 pokemon and currently unobtainable legendaries from gens 1-4 would have a massively positive impact on our competitive scene:

 

Some of the most famous pokemon in generation 3 history are currently stuck up in Ubers right now. Why? Because we simply lack the proper tools to handle them with our limited pokemon pool. Ever since choice band was implemented, pokemon like Salamence, Dragonite, and Tyranitar have been extremely difficult to counter/check, and have spent very little time actually available for OU competitive players. So how can you say we have a gen 3 atmosphere, when three of the most pivotal pokemon from generation 3 are essentially useless? Not to mention all the other gen 3 staples we dont have access to, like jirachi, suicune, and celebi.

 

With the introduction of gen 4 pokemon, and/or legendaries, we can finally see these formerly banished mons come back to OU and spice up the game again. Isn't that worth leaving behind something we've gotten to enjoy for many years already now?

You bring up very good points about the staples of gen 3, so I am biased as well. I leave being objective to my YouTube channels, but on forums I voice my viewpoints on the matters at hand.  I would rather have legendaries like Jirachi, Mew, and Celebi (@Darkshade's favourite legendary) in the meta, than having newer pokemon so we can come to an agreement here. I feel that gen 4 pokemon implemented in Hoenn would not feel right and Sinnoh is a region that requires a massive surgery to meet with PokeMMO's standards as I mentioned previously.

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(Quote mechanic is not working, so I had to copy and paste...)

 

suigin states:

 

"When you get the plot of Back to the Future told to you smh.

It not "feeling right" is not an argument. Like I said, if you don't like the new generation, don't interact with it. If you want to play gen3 without your brain crossing wires and making you think about how gen4 changed everything you're already in a pretty bad spot since MMO already implemented a lot of gen4 stuff specially the split already.

"They might lose some of their playerbase" is also a really bad argument since you can also say they might gain a ton of new players wanting to play a newer gen online. in the end if you're playing MMO for nostalgia value, good for you, but the real charm of MMO is basically being able to play Pokemon with other people online, right now it's gen3 only but never was it said that it'd stay gen3 only, people just assumed it because of rom limitations.

 

To any of this silent playerbase reading this. If MMO adds a new gen, don't downright quit. Continue to play, stick to Hoenn and Kanto only if you feel like it, and just try to bear when someone links their Gallade in chat and imagine it's someone talking about Jumpeon, besides that you wouldn't be interacting with newer mons at all, if after a week it becomes too painful to bear then yeah quit and make sure you let everyone in the forums know that a newer gen mixed with gen3 was akin to incest for you maybe you'll get Kyu to change it back."

 

 

My reply:

 

Yes, but do you want to promote an "outcast" culture on PokeMMO? What happens if people don't want to play with Pipups and Bidoofs and they just want to use Hoenn pokemon? According to your logic, tough luck to old folk. I need to state that this is like an old dog being taught new tricks and given new items, that's alright. Lets overwhelm the old dogs with the new dogs and make people's heads spin.

 

Back to the Future is the only way I can think of to explain my prospective. I mean your mixing new with the old and if its avoidable via legendary implementation, please implement keep able legendaries that won't break the meta so we can avoid gen 4 pokemon.

 

Gen 1-3 are diverse enough, look at all the mons we have in our dex 386 (with legendaries included), I am sure that is a lot of options to pick.

Edited by Bestfriends
I wanted to address suigin's points as well
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I really don't get the argument over nostalgia value :D

1) we already leave gen3 meta with items, some moves working like in newer gens and most importantly SPLIT (want punching Alakazam/Gengar? too bad, ele punches no longer special)

2) who said nostalgia applies only to gen3? For me Johto and gen2(Silver) is the true pokemon game and there are ppl who thinks gen4 is the best. You should not belive that if something is applied to you then it must apply to everyone.

 

Im not a gen4 fan because I didn't even play it. And this is true that there are some ugly/wtf/lame pokes like rhyperior, but quess what, every gen have ugly/wtf/lame pokes (Jynx,Ledian,Blaziken,Rhyperior,Reshiram,Barbaracle,Turtonator) but i know that there are ppl who like those pokes and life is made of little concessions. And if you realy think gen4 is just to let some bidoofs run around and upset "nostalgia" players then look at moves introduced in gen4 LINK (not mentioning split and items introduced in gen4 which we already have!). Gen4 was time when they start making pokemon games with thought about comp play.

 

At the end i would like to mark that i don't belive they will introduce new region. Im just arguing for the sake of a discussion.

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I can answer that!

 

The Next generation is... A Lie

                                    ... 3 years late

                                    ... A new hat collection

 

Edited by peep
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1 hour ago, Gilan said:

Image result for anime tears

Go into comedy, that's your field.

 

42 minutes ago, Toupi said:

I really don't get the argument over nostalgia value :D

1) we already leave gen3 meta with items, some moves working like in newer gens and most importantly SPLIT (want punching Alakazam/Gengar? too bad, ele punches no longer special)

2) who said nostalgia applies only to gen3? For me Johto and gen2(Silver) is the true pokemon game and there are ppl who thinks gen4 is the best. You should not belive that if something is applied to you then it must apply to everyone.

 

Im not a gen4 fan because I didn't even play it. And this is true that there are some ugly/wtf/lame pokes like rhyperior, but quess what, every gen have ugly/wtf/lame pokes (Jynx,Ledian,Blaziken,Rhyperior,Reshiram,Barbaracle,Turtonator) but i know that there are ppl who like those pokes and life is made of little concessions. And if you realy think gen4 is just to let some bidoofs run around and upset "nostalgia" players then look at moves introduced in gen4 LINK (not mentioning split and items introduced in gen4 which we already have!). Gen4 was time when they start making pokemon games with thought about comp play.

 

At the end i would like to mark that i don't belive they will introduce new region. Im just arguing for the sake of a discussion.

1. Its like a dog being taught new tricks. Items and mechanics are fine because its your good ole dog. What I am saying is not to introduce new dogs to a population of older dogs (its like introducing 30 year olds to retirement homes).

 

2. Personally, nostalgia for me was Pokemon Stadium and that announcer. I try to be like that announcer in my tournament commentaries except I want to be less annoying. On another note, PokeMMO is primarily a GBA world. If you want to make things less organic, throw in Sinnoh pokemon into both Hoenn and Kanto. Gen 4 was an okay generation for me, not my style personally, but if the development team needs massive surgery to meet up to PokeMMO standards. The distortion world is a part of the story and you have the option to catch a legendary there.... Do you think the devs really approve of this? One more thing before I move on to my other point, Bidoof and Buizel in the PokeMMO world we have now would be a little weird.

 

 

Yes we do have ugly pokemon in their respective generations (like Muk), but ugly pokemon won't really make much of an impact in the regions we are in. Its like an actor dressing up as a knight with a sword and going on a star wars set. Wouldn't it feel funny not to have a light sabre and wear a futuristic space costume? I am sure George Lucus does not approve of such a drastic change. I mentioned this in point 1, teaching your dogs new tricks and giving it new items are not going to change the overall dynamic, but things like Garchamp shakes our meta quite a bit. If you thought Dragonite, Tyranitar, and Salamance are scary, just wait for Flygon's long lost cousin that has the exact same typing.

 

In the end, I would like to doubt a new region, but new pokemon are not out of the question. I am sure the devs are watching me get pounded left and right by the community and they are like "yeap, we better introduce gen 4 pokemon RIGHT NOW!!!!"

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I wish Kyu didn't post the new gen announcement, and instead just post the new game when it is done.

So many pointless arguments, we don't even know if it's confirmed yet.

It might just be moves and mechanics from that gen, not a complete new gen.

Or a bridge to Hoenn instead of boat like @awkways stated.

But the real reason is, why is people arguing?

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11 hours ago, Gunthug said:

There will always be people who oppose progress 

There is a thing called taking one step forward and two steps back.  This is what is happening here.  Except it might as well be 666 steps back.

 

Heres what is happening:  They are taking the game away and replacing it with a new one. We already know that we enjoy this meta and it is continuing to evolve and become more balanced.  If it ain't broke don't fix it.  Think about this in the context of any other MMO.  Players come to MMO's for a certain experience.  In this case its a crazy-ass mod that lets you play 3rd gen online.  3rd gen.  There is no other fan-pokemon-mmo that provides this.  For someone who likes third gen, this game is a god-send.  Like @Bestfriends was saying.  Many many players come here to experience  3rd gen online.  Not 4th gen online. 

 

We dont oppose progress at all.  In fact, I think about ways to benefit PokeMMO, as an MMO, all the time.  So much more content is possible without ever adding a "new generation" of pokemon.  Here are some examples: 

 

And this is only scratching the surface of what is possible.  Keep the MMO Gen 3 and continue to add things on top of that to enhance online features and spice up gen 3 competitively with new items, moves, and legendaries.  Calling adding Gen 4 "progress" if like if Blizzard updated Starcrafts 1's servers and client to Starcraft 2  with no option to play Starcraft 1 anymore.  Do you see now how outrageous that is?

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12 minutes ago, Xatu said:

There is a thing called taking one step forward and two steps back.  This is what is happening here.  Except it might as well be 666 steps back.

 

Heres what is happening:  They are taking the game away and replacing it with a new one. We already know that we enjoy this meta and it is continuing to evolve and become more balanced.  If it ain't broke don't fix it.  Think about this in the context of any other MMO.  Players come to MMO's for a certain experience.  In this case its a crazy-ass mod that lets you play 3rd gen online.  3rd gen.  There is no other fan-pokemon-mmo that provides this.  For someone who likes third gen, this game is a god-send.  Like @Bestfriends was saying.  Many many players come here to experience  3rd gen online.  Not 4th gen online. 

 

We dont oppose progress at all.  In fact, I think about ways to benefit PokeMMO, as an MMO, all the time.  So much more content is possible without ever adding a "new generation" of pokemon.  Here are some examples: 

 

And this is only scratching the surface of what is possible.  Keep the MMO Gen 3 and continue to add things on top of that to enhance online features and spice up gen 3 competitively with new items, moves, and legendaries.  Calling adding Gen 4 "progress" if like if Blizzard updated Starcrafts 1's servers and client to Starcraft 2  with no option to play Starcraft 1 anymore.  Do you see now how outrageous that is?

Honestly at this point its a incomplete gen 4.

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