Shuffle Bracket.

[pachima]

Hi. I casually enter in these so called official tourneys, and everytime I do it, I feel like there is a change that should be done.

In my opinion, the fact you know what your opponent will be and even scout his team beforehand seems to cause some unhealthy pressure while teambuilding.

First of all, it reduces drastically chances newer players have to win (same team= ez scout= counter team= unfair disadvantage)

Second, ppl tend to use their plays based on what they seen  on previous matches of the opponent. This creates a mindset I dont consider healthy at all. This somehow removes that fun of trying to guess the set the opponent is using.

Granted you can play around by using same comps with different sets, but I see this as another restraint to teambuilding. What if the player doesnt like a second set compared to the first one already used? What if the player doesnt have comps of the same pokemon with different sets (Its a grinding game, so I know it can get boring to breed a pokemon you already have)

All in all I just want to promote fairness between all types of players. 

So, I was thinking if you could somehow shuffle the bracket every round to disallow all stuff mentioned above.

[Laz]

4 hours ago, pachima said:

What if the player doesnt have comps of the same pokemon with different sets (Its a grinding game, so I know it can get boring to breed a pokemon you already have)

How do you expect people to win officials by merely using the same comps every round?

[AbdOuMarley]

4 hours ago, pachima said:

What if the player doesnt have comps of the same pokemon with different sets (Its a grinding game, so I know it can get boring to breed a pokemon you already have)

so why did @Moetal breed 10 jolts all females with different sets ?

[Moetal]

2 minutes ago, AbdOuMarley said:

so why did @Moetal breed 10 jolts all females with different sets ?

Mistakes were made. Also swagger > choice spec > growth (leftover) > growth (life orb) > wishlol 

[notmudkip0]

21 minutes ago, Moetal said:

Mistakes were made. Also swagger > choice spec > growth (leftover) > growth (life orb) > wishlol 

No fake tears?

[Moetal]

Just now, notmudkip0 said:

No fake tears?

Someday.

[pachima]

8 hours ago, Lazaro23 said:

How do you expect people to win officials by merely using the same comps every round?

plz. My shiny exe official was won with literally 8 comps through every round. (Yesterday´s cc same thing)

That assumption of yours just prove how hard it is to currently see new players winning something, and I dont think it should be like that.

Having few comps is already a disadvantage for them. Being able to scout beforehand is even more of a disadvantage, thats all I was to reach.

[Laz]

1 hour ago, pachima said:

plz. My shiny exe official was won with literally 8 comps through every round. (Yesterday´s cc same thing)

That assumption of yours just prove how hard it is to currently see new players winning something, and I dont think it should be like that.

Having few comps is already a disadvantage for them. Being able to scout beforehand is even more of a disadvantage, thats all I was to reach.

Let's assume that the bracket is shuffled. Now what do you prefer, only the most popular players get to scout their opponents thanks to their friends help, or also those newbies you're defending can also check what is their opponents play style  ?
Let's not forget that scouting is only viable in the latest rounds, where only the few players left are facing each others, so it is not really hard to scout those 3 opponents all together, and what you're suggesting won't help newbies, but will actually do the opposite, being at a disadvantage on either being low on comps, and not knowing anything about their opponents.
I'd rather have scouting allowed for everyone, rather than only a few selected players, and what's funny is that we'll be seeing some new kind of job in Pokemmo, " scouting for cash " Lmao.
 

Edited February 8, 2017 by Lazaro23
typo

[Spaintakula]

10 hours ago, Lazaro23 said:

How do you expect people to win officials by merely using the same comps every round?

Actually, that's one of the few things you should be proud of if you keep winning with the same team. This suggestion allows for a team comp to actually be able to win a tour without having to change 5 times throughout it. Afaik, some, if not more VGC players keep the same team over the course of the whole tournament they're at.

1 hour ago, Lazaro23 said:

and what you're suggesting won't help newbies, but will actually do the opposite, being at a disadvantage on either being low on comps, and not knowing anything about their opponents.

???

Not sure if I'm getting the suggestion right, but I don't see how shuffling the people in the tournament each round has anything to do with the noobs who don't have more than 6 mons. It's just a shuffle as far as I'm concerned, and yes, to a point, it does lower scouting. But I'd rather see someone who's actually gotten there through sheer success and nothing else, than someone who's just there through scouting and counter-teaming. but idk.

[OrangeManiac]

In order for the bracket to be "shuffled", I think a round needs to finish before another one starts and I think this would unnecesaarily increase the duration of the tournament. I'd prefer that your opponent would remain hidden until the match starts. I suppose you could somewhat guess your opponent based on the 10 minute set up time activating and matches ending but especially on the first 3 rounds you cannot be really sure who you're facing next round if your opponent remains hidden.

 

I think the problem is that the automated tournament is programmed to work like a simple bracket and programming to randomize the opponent for every round would be the first step in order to able to have the feature of not being able to see your next round's opponent becoming handy. Let's be honest, this would be a lot of work and would only really come in handy in the first rounds of the tournament unless every round has to finish before a next round can start so as much as I hate scouting being so easy in this game, I think it's an inevitability.

 

Edited February 8, 2017 by OrangeManiac

[Laz]

29 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

This suggestion allows for a team comp to actually be able to win a tour without having to change 5 times throughout it.

I just think this is uncreative, sorry

 

34 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

???

Not sure if I'm getting the suggestion right, but I don't see how shuffling the people in the tournament each round has anything to do with the noobs who don't have more than 6 mons. It's just a shuffle as far as I'm concerned

wat

37 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

I'd rather see someone who's actually gotten there through sheer success and nothing else, than someone who's just there through scouting and counter-teaming. but idk.

one thing is for sure, i dont wanna see 6 stupid people who lost to the same team, lol.

 

28 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

I suppose you could somewhat guess your opponent based on the 10 minute set up time activating and matches ending but especially on the first 3 rounds you cannot be really sure who you're facing next round if your opponent remains hidden.

nice suggestion, would recommand

[Spaintakula]

17 minutes ago, Lazaro23 said:

I just think this is uncreative, sorry

A creative team is considered one that should be able to withstand different playstyles. Changing that each round is nothing creative, it's basically going "I know what he likes to use and hates facing, so I'll make sure to cover that and use the shit he hates". That's not creative, that's just using your brain in the lowest way possible when it comes to competitive batling. On the other hand, getting with the same team to finals gives you atleast that sense of accomplishement that you managed to beat different teams with the team you made, you created, and not constantly changing just to be able to win vs ONE selected individual each round. Also, let's not act that cteaming can't be done in round 2-3 of tours too. If you manage to get someone you know/have battled before/have seen what they use, you can easily prepare somewhat of a counter to them. Everyone's aware of that, it's not like we're this huge ass community where none of us know eachother. Shuffling makes that not be a thing too.

[NikhilR]

5 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

A creative team is considered one that should be able to withstand different playstyles. Changing that each round is nothing creative, it's basically going "I know what he likes to use and hates facing, so I'll make sure to cover that and use the shit he hates". 

If a player has worked so hard to build such a solid creative team, then it shouldn't be easily prone to being beaten by just counterteaming. How is knowing what a person likes to use and then exploiting a gap in his team = non creative? It's what actually gives rise to new sets and that's how the idea of a lure even originates. Even in sports I'm sure that most managers don't go into every game with the same tactic when facing different opponents. They probs review the game film of their opponent and then decide to attack the weak points and accordingly strategize. 

 

10 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

 On the other hand, getting with the same team to finals gives you atleast that sense of accomplishement that you managed to beat different teams with the team you made, you created, and not constantly changing just to be able to win vs ONE selected individual each round. 

It definitely gives you a sense of accomplishment when you win with the same team consecutively, but that varies from person to person. Another person's sense of accomplishment would be to just win and not about how they win. 

 

16 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

Also, let's not act that cteaming can't be done in round 2-3 of tours too. If you manage to get someone you know/have battled before/have seen what they use, you can easily prepare somewhat of a counter to them. Everyone's aware of that, it's not like we're this huge ass community where none of us know eachother. Shuffling makes that not be a thing too.

You're right about this para, but I still don't see why shuffling the bracket is a good idea. 

[OldKeith]

I agree that counterteaming happens a bit moret than it should and big teams can be oppressive to newer players.

 

Aside from bracket shuffle each round which is not a bad idea, a battle box locked for the entire competition (just like in official VGC events) could also be the answer. This makes player focuses on a team that beats the meta instead of targeting individual players.

[Spaintakula]

52 minutes ago, Kanzo said:

Only close minded people who are afraid of getting counter teamed want the bracket to be shuffeled. It's like they want life easier so they try find reasons of poor to make their own life easier. but they don't give a fuck about poor. It's all about them and what they really want so they don't have to deal with all the hard obstacles. Thats what this thread is about. Do we really need to explain how stupid and gimmick shuffling is? lmao.

Because counter teaming makes your life harder and not easier?...Also, coming from the metagame that has stupid and gimmick writen all over it, this fits right in, I agree, it is gimmick and stupid.

 

1 hour ago, NikhilR said:

If a player has worked so hard to build such a solid creative team, then it shouldn't be easily prone to being beaten by just counterteaming. How is knowing what a person likes to use and then exploiting a gap in his team = non creative? It's what actually gives rise to new sets and that's how the idea of a lure even originates. Even in sports I'm sure that most managers don't go into every game with the same tactic when facing different opponents. They probs review the game film of their opponent and then decide to attack the weak points and accordingly strategize. 

Fair enough, I did mislead with what I wanted to say. Counter teaming isn't non-creative, I do get it still needs skill to actually find a counter and pull it off, but it also has that feeling that you're using a cheat sheet, atleast for me. And as for the first sentence, we all know every team has a weakness. Every single one, there's no perfect team, and that's where scouting and counterteaming comes in. Sure you can make a team that's well thought out and solid proof, but a counter is basically seeing that and abusing the fact that you know your opponent will use what you can easily counter if you've had the information. Also, this game does involve strategy, and can be related to many sports for strategical references, but it's not up there to the point where managers can easily interfere with a match and give guidance to the players. That's more relatable to ghosting, which, well, bannable.

1 hour ago, NikhilR said:

It definitely gives you a sense of accomplishment when you win with the same team consecutively, but that varies from person to person. Another person's sense of accomplishment would be to just win and not about how they win. 

This is just my point of view, but I always care how a person came where they are right now, rather than be amazed at the fact they are there. Again, just my opinion, which weighs nothing related to this.

[pachima]

Wow, so much thrashtalk.

Anyway, the shuffling bracket was just an idea. Anything that wouldn´t allow people to scout previous matches so easily could do. 

Since shuffling would make tours needlessly longer, any other suggestions are welcomed. 

I can´t see any harm with hidden opponents until the right time, as stated by @OrangeManiac

I have played vgc in gen6 games, and the box locked thing isnt too bad either (Even though you are almost guaranteed to not know the guy you face against anyway)

One can just not deny most games start at the end of the 10 minute mark of the next round. People scout and most of the times, teambuild according to what they have seen -  not healthy at all.

Now:

 

4 hours ago, Lazaro23 said:

Let's assume that the bracket is shuffled. Now what do you prefer, only the most popular players get to scout their opponents thanks to their friends help, or also those newbies you're defending can also check what is their opponents play style  ?
Let's not forget that scouting is only viable in the latest rounds, where only the few players left are facing each others, so it is not really hard to scout those 3 opponents all together, and what you're suggesting won't help newbies, but will actually do the opposite, being at a disadvantage on either being low on comps, and not knowing anything about their opponents.
I'd rather have scouting allowed for everyone, rather than only a few selected players, and what's funny is that we'll be seeing some new kind of job in Pokemmo, " scouting for cash " Lmao.
 

 

Wrong, and wrong. Since u know exactly who you are going against, I cant see why scout isnt viable at the start of tour.

Second, newbies know nothing about their opponents but you also know nothing about them. If they cant afford several teams yet, knowing opponents or not will not change a thing, the opponent, however, can just counterteam somewhat effectively (And yeah, I have seen this countless times)

Also, checking playstyles and sets is completely different. Sets/pokemon allows you to build accordingly to theur best sweeper/wall, etc, etc. Styles, while you cant, its much more vague. Take my example, Im an offensive mindset player. Given that you cant counter team as effectively as if you saw my games and my favorite comps/sets, bla bla.

Also, if you consider a play style to be checked and countered, this is wrong at so many levels. Good prepared teams should be able to manage most situations, so you cant really counter them just by knowing its style.

Also:

2 hours ago, Kanzo said:

Only close minded people who are afraid of getting counter teamed want the bracket to be shuffeled. It's like they want life easier so they try find reasons of poor to make their own life easier. but they don't give a fuck about poor. It's all about them and what they really want so they don't have to deal with all the hard obstacles. Thats what this thread is about. Do we really need to explain how stupid and gimmick shuffling is? lmao.

 

Yes, I do give a fuck about poor. I dont really care about officials that much (only entered 4 in this year) and yet, I got two final wins (One was a cc but who cares) 

If you watch all my games, you won´t see more than a bunch of the same comps and yet they are effective, and since Im the one who brought this, I guess its kinda stupid of you to come with that excuse. (Just to be clear. NO! I dont really care about scouts at all, since u cant scout me at all. Just the mentality behind that)

What I just dont like is the mentality behind teambuilding because it´s pretty much obvious everything you see beforehand haves a great impact on how you teambuild, while it shouldnt( You should teambuild to maximize your chances to win every time, not to maximize your chances to win against x player)

On another note, I´m in this competitive scenario(of pokemmo) perhaps for much less of what you have been, so I know how hard was for me some months ago to get some really good spot in these stuff. Moreover, I have/had some new friends in this game that when I come/came with: "Join me in the official" they are like: "Oh, no, it´s not worth, still need more comps"

For the shuffling, I agree there are flaws, but thats why this discussion is for.

[Spaintakula]

57 minutes ago, Kanzo said:

 

Not sure what the hell u want since ur so vague in this whole comment. You sound like Darkshade about using calcs lmao.

 

imo: devs need to find ways make life for counter teaming easier rather then more grinding. for example find ways for players to adjust their evspread, easier re-moveset certain pokemons. when you have pp maxed a move and re-moveset it that it keeps being a pp maxed move on a certain poke. This kind of features will make this game more interesting and more competitive rathern than finding a cheap way of suggesting a stupid surprise opponent each round and get lucky ur opponent doesnt have that one certain synergy of pokemons that beats ur team u made for one tourney. Nah thats stupid as fuck and there is ZERO competitive thoughts in there. besides ive seen people still pull wins with 1-2 solid build teams so i don't get why we should have a shuffle bracket each round lmao.

 

Well what you just suggested I'm sure would be nice, and has been suggested before as far as I know. And I don't need to "want" something to post in a suggestions thread. It's a suggestion, saying what you think about the matter doesn't have to mean you badly want it. Just saying it'd be nice and what it would solve if it actually somehow made it in the game.