Thunder Wave

[Maelstrom]

Poison also has double immunities (poison and steel) and also the immunity ability.

[Gunthug]

1 hour ago, Erayne said:

Cuz it doesn't really kill pokemon by itself, while all other status do

I'd much rather have a status that ticks off 1/16th of my health every turn than one that has a pretty large chance to take an entire turn away (on top of crippling speed.) This is not a valid reason for twave being so much more powerful than any other status inflicting move, and just because it took game freak seven gens to fix their mistake doesn't mean we need to be as stupid 

 

1 hour ago, LionKIng said:

and because theres so many more immunities than the other crippling moves

This just isn't true. As maelstrom said poison has plenty of immunities, as does burn to an extent. Some of the things you mentioned earlier are laughable, I mean Limber? Really? 

 

Let's be perfectly clear here - 90% accuracy twave will still be a very powerful move. To me, this is just another example of luddites who don't like change. There were people crying about the crit change from 2x to 1.5x too, and that turned out to be one of this comp scenes greatest improvements imo. Change can be a good thing

[KaynineXL]

57 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

I'd much rather have a status that ticks off 1/16th of my health every turn than one that has a pretty large chance to take an entire turn away (on top of crippling speed.) This is not a valid reason for twave being so much more powerful than any other status inflicting move, and just because it took game freak seven gens to fix their mistake doesn't mean we need to be as stupid 

 

This just isn't true. As maelstrom said poison has plenty of immunities, as does burn to an extent. Some of the things you mentioned earlier are laughable, I mean Limber? Really? 

 

Let's be perfectly clear here - 90% accuracy twave will still be a very powerful move. To me, this is just another example of luddites who don't like change. There were people crying about the crit change from 2x to 1.5x too, and that turned out to be one of this comp scenes greatest improvements imo. Change can be a good thing

why is 90% acc a good thing tho gunt? what makes you think it should change huh?

[Gunthug]

30 minutes ago, KaynineXL said:

why is 90% acc a good thing tho gunt? what makes you think it should change huh?

Tomorrow I'll begin gathering research and drafting up a dissertation in response to this clever little retort. Once I source it and send it out to my freelance editor, I'll be ironing out the kinks and then posting it here. And you are gonna feel so silly when I do 

[LuisPocho]

1 hour ago, KaynineXL said:

why is 90% acc a good thing tho gunt? what makes you think it should change huh?

only reason I can think is that 90% acc may discourage players to use it... and maybe thats the idea

[gbwead]

The way I look at it is that RNG - whether we are talking about crits, confusion, paralysis, secondary effects or in this case misses - makes the game less stale. When a Weezing faces a slow Substitute Rhydon + a cleric Chansey, it will naturally spam Wil-O-Wisp everytime Rhydon comes in play and everytime that happens Chansey will be forced to Heal Bell in order to remove Rhydon's burn. In this scenario, the low accuracy of Wil-O-Wisp allows the player on the recieving end of the burn to break trought what would have been a very stale and booring pp stalling cycle. For this reason, I can see the 90% accuracy of Toxic and the 85% accuracy of Wil-O-Wisp as battling elements with some relative competitive merit.

 

However, I really don't see the point in lowering the accuracy of Twave. What could possibly be the purpose of that? A paralysed pokemon is not doomed unlike the ones that are burned or poisoned since those will take dmg every turn. Poisons and burns are so deadly which is why players are forced to deal with those status and that often leads to repetitive plays that thankfully will ultimately benefit the players that recieves the status. Paralysis is very different since this status is used mainly for momentum gain and repetitive plays from the player with a paralysed pokemon is severely discouraged unlike Poison or Burn. If the player that used Twave and got ton of momentum for doing so is incapable of capitalizing on this momentum, the paralysis will be his downfall during the pp stalling war that would follow. 

 

Twave is also not more or less powerful than another status - at least not in PokeMMO.

[Gunthug]

On 1/25/2017 at 10:36 PM, gbwead said:

The way I look at it is that RNG - whether we are talking about crits, confusion, paralysis, secondary effects or in this case misses - makes the game less stale. When a Weezing faces a slow Substitute Rhydon + a cleric Chansey, it will naturally spam Wil-O-Wisp everytime Rhydon comes in play and everytime that happens Chansey will be forced to Heal Bell in order to remove Rhydon's burn. In this scenario, the low accuracy of Wil-O-Wisp allows the player on the recieving end of the burn to break trought what would have been a very stale and booring pp stalling cycle. For this reason, I can see the 90% accuracy of Toxic and the 85% accuracy of Wil-O-Wisp as battling elements with some relative competitive merit.

 

However, I really don't see the point in lowering the accuracy of Twave. What could possibly be the purpose of that? A paralysed pokemon is not doomed unlike the ones that are burned or poisoned since those will take dmg every turn. Poisons and burns are so deadly which is why players are forced to deal with those status and that often leads to repetitive plays that thankfully will ultimately benefit the players that recieves the status. Paralysis is very different since this status is used mainly for momentum gain and repetitive plays from the player with a paralysed pokemon is severely discouraged unlike Poison or Burn. If the player that used Twave and got ton of momentum for doing so is incapable of capitalizing on this momentum, the paralysis will be his downfall during the pp stalling war that would follow. 

 

Twave is also not more or less powerful than another status - at least not in PokeMMO.

 

What could possibly be the purpose of lowering twaves accuracy? Because there shouldn't be a 100% accuracy status move that not only applies a very powerful secondary effect, but also has a significant chance every turn to turn your opponents pokemon into a slaking.

 

[gbwead]

 

On 1/25/2017 at 10:44 PM, Gunthug said:

What could possibly be the purpose of lowering twaves accuracy? Because there shouldn't be a 100% accuracy status move that not only applies a very powerful secondary effect, but also has a significant chance every turn to turn your opponents pokemon into a slaking

 

You are making up a general rule about status without considering how this status move fonctions. 

[Erayne]

8 hours ago, Gunthug said:

I'd much rather have a status that ticks off 1/16th of my health every turn than one that has a pretty large chance to take an entire turn away (on top of crippling speed.) This is not a valid reason for twave being so much more powerful than any other status inflicting move, and just because it took game freak seven gens to fix their mistake doesn't mean we need to be as stupid 

I agree normal poisoning is far preferable, but i'd prefer paralisys over burn anyday on a physical sweeper. Burns make any physical sweeper TOTALLY USELESS, you may aswell think that sweeper as a dead one, while if it's paralyzed it could still be totally useful (sometimes it doesnt even make a difference). I'd also prefer paralisys over toxic almost always. With toxic you may just stall and gg. The reason game freak changed the mechanic isn't their stupidity, but probably the meta changing. That twave is much more powerful than other status moves is just YOUR opinion, i'm quite sure a lot of people (including me) would disagree. 

[Coge]

In my opinion if you have one of opponent's poke toxic'd it gives you a massive advantage regardless of the situation (other than a few guts users), while if your opponent is twaved it does not necessarily give you an advantage. Sometimes the big disadvantage i find with thunder wave is that you can no longer poison/burn/sleep the poke, which is a huge drawback.

[Gunthug]

4 minutes ago, Coge said:

In my opinion if you have one of opponent's poke toxic'd it gives you a massive advantage regardless of the situation (other than a few guts users), while if your opponent is twaved it does not necessarily give you an advantage. Sometimes the big disadvantage i find with thunder wave is that you can no longer poison/burn/sleep the poke, which is a huge drawback.

Thats fine, people are allowed to have different opinions about which status move is more powerful. The point is, there are plenty of people (myself included) that think paralysis is currently the most damaging status move. Some would argue burn is, like @Erayne earlier. I think we can all, well most of us, can agree that the three status conditions we've been discussing are relatively similar though - the main difference being that toxic and will-o-wisp - the main ways to inflict those statuses - have different accuracy levels for some reason. Gamefreak fixed this problem in gen 7 (and also fixed the 4 stage stat drop which gbwead hasn't addressed yet in his rants). I think it is common sense to apply that fix here and restore the balance

[Coge]

6 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

Thats fine, people are allowed to have different opinions about which status move is more powerful. The point is, there are plenty of people (myself included) that think paralysis is currently the most damaging status move. Some would argue burn is, like @Erayne earlier. I think we can all, well most of us, can agree that the three status conditions we've been discussing are relatively similar though - the main difference being that toxic and will-o-wisp - the main ways to inflict those statuses - have different accuracy levels for some reason. Gamefreak fixed this problem in gen 7 (and also fixed the 4 stage stat drop which gbwead hasn't addressed yet in his rants). I think it is common sense to apply that fix here and restore the balance

True, all three moves have very different functions, at the end of the day its hard to classify one of them as the inferior.

[Maelstrom]

I don't think I can enter in the current discussion since I have safe guarders + heal bellers on my team and 4/6 of said team are fire pokemons...

 

I would say all the 3 status (poison, paralyze and burn) have around the same impact on the game, it all depends on the situation.

[KaynineXL]

1 minute ago, Maelstrom said:

I don't think I can enter in the current discussion since I have safe guarders + heal bellers on my team and 4/6 of said team are fire pokemons...

I would love to hear your team

[Maelstrom]

20 minutes ago, KaynineXL said:

I would love to hear your team

I am still tweaking it tbh, but for now it's something like:

 

Charizard/Typhlosion - special attacker

Blaziken - physical attacker

Arcanine - physical wall + safeguard

Ninetales - special wall + safeguard

Umbreon - special wall + heal bell + pursuit

Quagsire - physical wall + cover + haze

 

Won't give more details, pretty sure you guys will found enough to laugh already...

 

Any rain fucking dance teams can sweep me tho...

 

 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2017 by Maelstrom

[RysPicz]

I do understand gb's stance on Twave's mechanics. And I do get Gunthug's as well (and I would also be up for that change). The way I see it, both of you want to have the (possibly) most competitive environment.

 

@Gunthug As much as I agree with your opinion about switching the mechanics behind the mentioned move that much your aggression and offensive tone is at least unnecessary and I hope you are aware of it. Its not the first (and definietly not last) time you are doing that, hyperbolizing your own opinions (Id love to see Gb's temper tantrum from lax thread). Not to mention that calling gb "biased" is just.. wrong, this is one of the most involved and active people in our competitive community (and respected as well).

 

More discussion less insults, aside from them I developed my own opinion further.

 

@gbwead

Dont think about it as a mass  of lube because you still suck and I will be still beating you in the future and so will tranz

[Gunthug]

@RysPicz @gbwead I think I forget sometimes that others don't literally argue for a living and therefore don't use the same tactics that I'm used to on a day to day basis. If those come off as too aggressive then I understand, it's just my style. Hyperbole can be a very effective tool for arguing but it can also offend people when they feel I'm misrepresenting their stance and I get that. I'll work on it

 

I still can't quite wrap my head around gb's logic though but we can get into that more later when I'm not texting under the table lel 

[gbwead]

I will rephrase then. Why do status moves like Toxic, Sleep Powder, Thunder Wave, Wil-O-Wisp, Spore, Glare, Stun Spore all have to be inaccurate to some degree? If Toxic is inaccurate, why does Twave needs to be inaccurate too? They don't do the same thing at all, so it would be one hell of a coincidence if they are as impactful in such a way that would justify having these 2 moves with the same accuracy. Would we want Hypnosis to have the same accuracy as Toxic just for consistency reasons? Ofc not.

 

 

 

[RysPicz]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

I will rephrase then. Why do status moves like Toxic, Sleep Powder, Thunder Wave, Wil-O-Wisp, Spore, Glare, Stun Spore all have to be inaccurate to some degree? If Toxic is inaccurate, why does Twave needs to be inaccurate too? They don't do the same thing at all, so it would be one hell of a coincidence if they are as impactful in such a way that would justify having these 2 moves with the same accuracy. Would we want Hypnosis to have the same accuracy as Toxic just for consistency reasons? Ofc not.

Spore is

 

Fuck it I have to start it differently because again I cant delete what I wrote earlier. Whatever

Now Im at home finally so I can elaborate a tiny bit.

Spore's example kinda enlightened me. We forgot about a certain factor: which pokes actually have access to the moves we are mentioning. Twave is quite a common status learned not only by electric types. Tox can be taught to almost any poke. Wisp is much less common as only few pokes can actually learn it. Spore pls.

I do belive that twave is a brainless move with almost no drawbacks. Why? Look at Chansey (my fav example of a broken thing). Most of these I faced are twave. Why? Because if you happen to tox an ursaring or heracross you are in huge trouble. Because Chansey is a bait for spikes (steel types) on which tox does not work. And because Venusaur.

Twave is brainless. Flygon switchin? Kek I can protect to see the used move and go into safe switch. Jolteon? Lol it still loses 1v1. Anything else gets crippled for the rest of the game.

Unless heal bell ofc. Paralyzed Heracross is almost unusable even with guts activated when even a fucking slowbro outspeeds it now. Ursaring maybeee a tiny bit less but the 25% chance to become a slaking for a turn is still huge.

I can give more examples from other tiers where twave is better than tox. Almost any poke that can run both of those statuses choses twave, for a reason.

 

I might be chaotic with tons of typos cuz phone so pardon moi

[Erayne]

4 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

I am still tweaking it tbh, but for now it's something like:

 

Charizard/Typhlosion - special attacker

Blaziken - physical attacker

Arcanine - physical wall + safeguard

Ninetales - special wall + safeguard

Umbreon - special wall + heal bell + pursuit

Quagsire - physical wall + cover + haze

 

Won't give more details, pretty sure you guys will found enough to laugh already...

 

Any rain fucking dance teams can sweep me tho...

 

 

 

 

Don't even need a whole team xD rain ludicolo is enough

[Maelstrom]

39 minutes ago, Erayne said:

Don't even need a whole team xD rain ludicolo is enough

Only if it's an offensive ludicolo tho. Fortunately, offensive ludicolo aren't that common to see.

Rain dance Kingdra is kinda problematic too...

 

@topic

Besides the spore move being only available to 2 or 3 pokemon species, there's also the sleep clauses to be taken in account.

 

Edited January 26, 2017 by Maelstrom

[gbwead]

I'll try to put it this way.

 

In slow paced games, poison is quite deadly because of the dmg it can deal long term. However, paralysis is a welcomed in slow paced games since it allows the pokemon to stall more effectively. The fact that Toxic miss more often will compensate for the fact that it is deadly. Since you do not want to paralyse a pokemon in a stall duel, there is no point here to make Twave less accurate.

 

In fast paced games, poison is not that relevant since it will only deal short term dmg. However, paralysis is very effective in a fast paced game since it gives tons of momentum. A random Toxic miss is not that important here, but a Twave miss would be much more problematic. In this case, a twave miss is completly random and yet so significant. It would be competitively preferable for that reason to keep Twave accuracy at 100%.

 

 

[Gunthug]

30 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I'll try to put it this way.

 

In slow paced games, poison is quite deadly because of the dmg it can deal long term. However, paralysis is a welcomed in slow paced games since it allows the pokemon to stall more effectively. The fact that Toxic miss more often will compensate for the fact that it is deadly. Since you do not want to paralyse a pokemon in a stall duel, there is no point here to make Twave less accurate.

 

In fast paced games, poison is not that relevant since it will only deal short term dmg. However, paralysis is very effective in a fast paced game since it gives tons of momentum. A random Toxic miss is not that important here, but a Twave miss would be much more problematic. In this case, a twave miss is completly random and yet so significant. It would be competitively preferable for that reason to keep Twave accuracy at 100%.

 

 

Don't take this as my full answer since I pretended I had to use the restroom to type this. Aren't slow paced teams more prepared for status than fast paced teams? I feel like a cleric is almost a necessity for slow paced teams, whereas fast paced teams which are, by your own admission, more prone to paralysis losing them games, have very few safeguards against status period (especially paralysis which absolutely crushes what fast paced teams aim to do) 

 

My point is, yes toxic is worse in the long run for slow paced teams but they have another built in safeguard to that move aside from the lower accuracy - clerics. Fast paced teams don't really have that built in safeguard for status like para and burns - burns however have lower accuracy with their main move (WoW) but para is for some reason not subject to that safeguard. That, to me, is simply not ok 

Edited January 26, 2017 by Gunthug

[gbwead]

2 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

whereas fast paced teams which are, by your own admission, more prone to paralysis losing them games, have very few safeguards against status period (especially paralysis which absolutely crushes what fast paced teams aim to do) 

Ya that is what I am trying to say. In fast paced duels, paralysis has a significant - crushing - impact and since the opportunities of using twave are limited because of how fast paced the duel is a miss twave would be completly random and yet very unfortunate. I don't think a Toxic miss in a fast paced duel is as bad a Twave miss would be.

[Gunthug]

2 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Ya that is what I am trying to say. In fast paced duels, paralysis has a significant - crushing - impact and since the opportunities of using twave are limited because of how fast paced the duel is a miss twave would be completly random and yet very unfortunate. I don't think a Toxic miss in a fast paced duel is as bad a Twave miss would be.

OK so reverse that for slow paced duels. Wouldn't a toxic miss in a slow paced duel be worse than a twave miss? Often in stall v stall you're trying to drain your opponents heal bell/aroma PP and like you said, twave isn't as urgent of a problem to correct as toxic in these battles. If you miss toxic because of the lower accuracy in a slow paced duel it's a much bigger deal than missing para since that para may have helped them anyways