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1 minute ago, Gunthug said:

OK so reverse that for slow paced duels. Wouldn't a toxic miss in a slow paced duel be worse than a twave miss? Often in stall v stall you're trying to drain your opponents heal bell/aroma PP and like you said, twave isn't as urgent of a problem to correct as toxic in these battles. If you miss toxic because of the lower accuracy in a slow paced duel it's a much bigger deal than missing para since that para may have helped them anyways

I disagree. In a slow paced duel, there are more opportunities to use Toxic usually which is why I don't see a Toxic miss in a slow pace duel as big of a deal than a Twave miss in a fast paced duel. 

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3 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I disagree. In a slow paced duel, there are more opportunities to use Toxic usually which is why I don't see a Toxic miss in a slow pace duel as big of a deal than a Twave miss in a fast paced duel. 

Let me pose this: would you agree that in a slow paced duel there are also generally more opportunities to switch out and reset toxic damage? I also think slow paced duels by nature generally rely on status to wear down bulkier pokemon, whereas fast paced duels should, in my opinion, carry more risk for those relying on status and status alone. So again if someone needs a burn to slow down a heavy physical attacking hyper O team, they have to be prepared for a miss. But twave is much less risky due to its accuracy and the insane stat drop it carries (again I know you're fine with the change in speed drop) 

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Looking for @Senile to come put me in my place here. Am I wrong about this? The twave nerf was long overdue, right? I feel like especially with gen 4 possibly on the horizon here in MMO land it's important to fix yet another thing that's broken with one of the past metagames - we've already fixed crits and hey its amazing that you can't spore grass types or para electric types. I see this as another positive change and I know a lot of gen 3 and 4 players would agree with me 

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3 hours ago, Gunthug said:

Let me pose this: would you agree that in a slow paced duel there are also generally more opportunities to switch out and reset toxic damage?

Yes I do agree that you can reset the toxic dmg, but what matters is the fact that it does dmg regardless of the amount of toxic dmg stacks. 

 

3 hours ago, Gunthug said:

I also think slow paced duels by nature generally rely on status to wear down bulkier pokemon, whereas fast paced duels should, in my opinion, carry more risk for those relying on status and status alone. 

I respect your opinion, but I don't see much to back it up tho here. Why should there be a risk associated with status in general? Also, if someone uses Twave to gain some momentum everytime the paralysed pokemon doesn't move, that player might not be happy if this pokemon is able to make a move every turn regardless of 25% chance that it doesn't. Relying on paralysis is not totally riskless.

 

3 hours ago, Gunthug said:

So again if someone needs a burn to slow down a heavy physical attacking hyper O team, they have to be prepared for a miss. But twave is much less risky due to its accuracy and the insane stat drop it carries (again I know you're fine with the change in speed drop) 

I think the main difference between w-o-w and twave is that all burned pokemons will lose dmg even though they might not use physical attacks. Slow pokemons do not care that much about a paralysis inflicted by twave.

I think it is also important to consider that a paralysed Metagross deals the same amount of dmg than a regular Metagross. It will get the same OHKOs, but this is not the case with a burned Metagross. A OHKO from an healthy pokemon can end up as a 2HKO on a burned pokemon which gives the opponent a lot of flexibility. For instance, a low life Skarmory that would die to Tpunch will only be able to place 1 spike before dying to a paralysed Metagross. However, the same low life Skarmory will be able to place a spike, take a Tpunch from a burned Metagross and will able to switch out. 

Edited by gbwead
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1 hour ago, Gunthug said:

Looking for @Senile to come put me in my place here. Am I wrong about this? The twave nerf was long overdue, right? I feel like especially with gen 4 possibly on the horizon here in MMO land it's important to fix yet another thing that's broken with one of the past metagames - we've already fixed crits and hey its amazing that you can't spore grass types or para electric types. I see this as another positive change and I know a lot of gen 3 and 4 players would agree with me 

I don't really agree with you. Yes, Twave is absolutely one of the best moves in pokemon history, seeing use in pretty much every gen on many different pokemon you're 100% correct about that. The change to paralysis to only cut speed in half instead of crippling your pokemon's speed to unusable levels was huge, is a shit ton of gens late imo, should have been added forever ago. But the Twave accuracy nerf is just obnoxious.

 

Yeah, you're right, it makes more sense in terms of consistency to have Twave not be 100% accurate when you look at other status moves, but that's only when looking at a surface level. But other than making more sense in terms of consistency, is there really any reason to nerf the accuracy? Yeah, Twave is super good. I don't doubt it's as good in PokeMMO as it is in pretty much every pokemon gen, and the speed loss nerf is super warranted. But nerfing the accuracy really doesn't actually nerf the move itself that much.

 

Yeah, you can miss now, and when you miss it sucks. But are Chanseys really gonna stop running Twave just because 10% of the time it misses now? No, of course not, because 90% of the time it still does the job, and it doesn't have an option anywhere near as good for spreading paralysis. Just like how Toxic missing every so often is incredibly obnoxious and can sometimes even lose a game, but that really isn't a factor in whether or not its' used, because there isn't another move that functions quite like Toxic, you can't substitute it for a more reliable option. It missing is just part of the game. It's not like how you run Thunderbolt over Thunder, because Thunderbolt actually hits, you can't sub Toxic or Twave for "slightly worse in terms of raw power but more accurate". You're just stuck with them.

 

The accuracy nerf on Twave doesn't nerf the move significantly enough to really alter what pokemon its' used on, unless you really, really hate missing I guess. It just adds a small, potentially game changing bit of RNG to a strong move. RNG is part of pokemon, but generally, I'm personally opposed to just throwing in changes that add extra RNG to the game.

 

If I was forced to choose between Twave staying the same, or going fully Gen 7 with the speed cut nerf and the change to 90% acc, I'd choose full Gen 7 every time. But if I could pick and choose, I'd just take the speed nerf. Ideally, that should be significant enough to force people to exercise more judgement on when they should use it, if at all. It adds more skill to the game, by making Twave less generally useful, and by extension lass spammable both in battle and on movesets. Lowering the accuracy doesn't really make Twave use more skillful. Yes, it increases the risk of using it slightly, but it's not going to influence your play to a significant degree, if at all. You just play under the assumption that it'll hit, because almost every time, yeah, it will. And sometimes you're just gonna get screwed by RNG, and it just... won't hit. Yeah, Twave is slightly worse now, and it's more consistent with other status moves, but have you made Twave a more skill intensive and situational move by nerfing the accuracy? Not really.

 

tl;dr: speed nerf is great, accuracy change is really annoying. speed nerf should be added at all costs tho, it's that great, twave has always been gourd tier.

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1 hour ago, Senile said:

Gospel as usual

Yeah I see your point about the accuracy drop not adding any skill. I've always just looked at it as balancing, and I think you're slightly downplaying the risk increase that the lack of accuracy brings. Haven't you ever at least slightly considered dropping WoW on some pokes due to the low accuracy? Don't you feel even a little bit more comfortable running toxic on a poison type where you know it won't miss? It doesn't need to be a massive change for it to still positively affect balance, which is why I'd still advocate for completely changing the twave/para mechanics to match gen 7.

 

That being said, if devs want to implement the updated paralysis mechanics but leave twave at 100% accuracy I wouldn't kick and scream. The 4 stage stat drop on speed is fucking absurd. I don't think devs would ever do something like that, though, it's very off brand for them

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I am unsure on which side I fall myself, just trying to play devils advocate for now and see where I land. For now I am leaning on the side of keeping the accuracy as it is, but altering paralyzes speed reduction.

 

I feel like the important distinction to make here is whether toxic, twave and wow should be lumped in together. And if they should be then to what extent should we compare them?! If we come to the conclusion that they are extremely similar then I can see the argument for wanting to treat them as such. In that world twave becomes unfair in people's eyes, which looks to be one of Gunt's problems with it.

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17 hours ago, gbwead said:

 

I'll try to put it this way.

 

In slow paced games, poison is quite deadly because of the dmg it can deal long term. However, paralysis is a welcomed in slow paced games since it allows the pokemon to stall more effectively. The fact that Toxic miss more often will compensate for the fact that it is deadly. Since you do not want to paralyse a pokemon in a stall duel, there is no point here to make Twave less accurate.

 

yeah, twave being in accurate can be a blessing in disguise for stall teams. e.g my opponent switches in slowbro on twave but it misses, so lowering the accuracy might not be a nerf at all.

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