Ban Bellydrum

[sherdoonach]

I just lost to a belly drum user so i may sound salty but honestly i don't feel that salty because I feel the move is somewhat broken. It requires zero skill to pull off. Something like zard or linoone can come in free on something and bellydrum and its good game. That kind of one turn instant win is something that can centralise team building. With the limited amount of priority users in the game, particularly in ou, it almost forces you to run something like quick attack on an attacker that really has better options to run. I propose that it is banned as it limits skillful play, even if there is ways around it. To be dominated in a game and be down 6 pokes to 1 and then pull it back so easily due to clicking one button that requires zero skill may not be uncompetitive but it discourages creative play in the tiers. especially when the strongest stat boosting move is combined with the strongest and fastest priority move we have in the case of linoone. I propose that it is a banned move as we dont have many options to deal with it and if we do it becomes a factor that is needed on all teams due to the threat of two pokemon sweeping with ease without any prior set up or skillful play required. We also lack team preview so the threat of being belly drum swept influences everyones playstyle particularly in the ou tier.

 

Inb4 haze, inb4 quick attack. 

[Eggplant]

I don't think charizard is a problem. a single scarf user can solo shut down both sitrus and salac sets. and it's not like 'oh man need a drum zard counter', a scarf is on literally every team for many purposes. flygon in particular, is immune to eq, tpunch, and probably survives fire?

if you don't have an answer to zard, it's honestly poor teambuilding.

 

2 spikes will fuck with a linoone's hp especially, making it unable to abuse sub/drum/salac/flail ranges etc.if you whirlwind any pokemon, there's a chance to fuck his linoone on those 2 spikes.

so skarm is prob the best linoone counter. as long as skarm's alive, you can't get linoone swept. as long as your scarf is alive, you can't get zard swept.

and as long as you can't get swept for those reasons, you're playing 6v5.

 

pretty sure forret and meta can play around linoone too.

[notmudkip0]

3 minutes ago, Eggplant said:

I don't think charizard is a problem. a single scarf user can solo shut down both sitrus and salac sets. and it's not like 'oh man need a drum zard counter', a scarf is on literally every team for many purposes. flygon in particular, is immune to eq, tpunch, and probably survives fire?

if you don't have an answer to zard, it's honestly poor teambuilding.

espeed arcanine is also a good answer

scarfers are a bit more risky, salac zard ties with scarf flygon (same with other base 100s), but you still beat sitrus at least

[sherdoonach]

zard:

if its jolly sitrus zard it outspeeds arca and can ohko without being killed by espeed.

if its salac most scarfers are slower than zard. zard does have some things it cant beat such as swampert or flygon without damage but neither have reliable recovery and zard can run many sets with moves to beat/ohko both.

linoone:

one spinner and that spikes theory is out the window, especially when another common set is drum sitrus / return /espeed / something else to nab the ohko on weezing over espeed.

also saying the steel types wall them, magneton exists and steel types cant switch in with prior damage.

 

not to mention for both memento pokes like gardevoir make it easy to set up.

[DoubleJ]

sturdy + scarf

[Laz]

If you think belly drum is broken and should be banned, try using it in battle and see if you can win.
You will probably lose to many things, dusclops, skarmory, quick attack, fake out, mach punch, extremespeed, spikes, roar/whirlwind, or maybe you won't even get the chance to set it up.

[Gunthug]

prankster encore, ez

[sherdoonach]

37 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

sturdy + scarf

espeed linoone beats all scarf users and charizard outspeeds most scarf users unless u expect people to run scarf tauros, espeon or starmie or something. how are u gona have sturdy in the late game too.

[sherdoonach]

22 minutes ago, Lazaro23 said:

If you think belly drum is broken and should be banned, try using it in battle and see if you can win.
You will probably lose to many things, dusclops, skarmory, quick attack, fake out, mach punch, extremespeed, spikes, roar/whirlwind, or maybe you won't even get the chance to set it up.

fire punch/pursuit, break sturdy, >espeed, rapid spin, set up on a poke that isnt skarmory, unlikely 

oh and btw im not saying its unbeatable im saying its a cheap tactic that wins games without skill and can be abused and there isnt enough reliable answers to it to merit its usage. where are belly drum sweepers in later gens?

Edited January 17, 2017 by sherdoonach

[BurntZebra]

I agree belly drum stuff is somewhat uncompetitive, but I think the pokemon itself is more the culprit, more than belly drum itself. Linoone has stab espeed to remove any chance of being revenge killed by faster stuff. I don't think belly drum as a move is broken since stuff like belly drum hariyama or something isn't really a problem. Just like when people wanted tier council to ban curse since snorlax abused curse a lot, but in the end, snorlax was the actual problem, not curse. 

 

I'd say the annoying thing about charizard is that it's a total 50/50 between it being a special attacker set or potentially being a drum set. I've seen many skarmorys get roasted by a flamethrower, attempting to whirlwind out a charizard that could have been the belly drum set. 

[DoubleJ]

1 minute ago, sherdoonach said:

espeed linoone beats all scarf users and charizard outspeeds most scarf users unless u expect people to run scarf tauros, espeon or starmie or something. how are u gona have sturdy in the late game too.

Magic. 

 

Ok time for more serious response: Scarf Flygon is ultimately the best counter to Bellyzard in more ways than one. You either have to forego your beloved Fire + Thunderpunch just to kill it at full health and in many cases Scarf Flygon just outspeeds and revenge kills. Bellyzard also struggles immensely with Rhydon which is amazing against Chansey. It's the easiest of the two drum users to stop imo. Another neat strategy is to switch in Milotic as soon as you see Charizard. If it's Belly Drum, 9/10 times it's going to Substitute first and then you simply Haze on the incoming drum. You really fear no other set with Milotic and so it's a safe as heck switch in. Very few players are Drumming first unless they have good scouts. 

 

As for Linoone, well this pup has a very difficult time setting up. It either requires Memento support or a really fortunate match-up. Once it has set-up, you have multiple options for stopping it. Any Flail set can't touch Haunter, well to be fair any set can't beat Haunter since it's slower (unless you switch it in and let it die to Thief). Sturdy mons can phaze it or revenge kill it. Without Flail, it can't beat Skarmory, Forretress, or full health Metagross. Teams dedicated to setting up Linoone are pretty easy to spot, you'll start to notice the certain tendencies to desperately remove your steel type. I would suggest using Shed Hull if you intend on playing Matchmaking and fear Linoone, that way you can retain Skarm or Forretress without sacking them to Magneton. 

 

tl;dr They are skill-less strats to winning, but they can be stopped. Shed Hull Skarm; Scarf Flygon; Steel-types. We have to carry something to handle them. 

[sherdoonach]

21 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Magic. 

 

Ok time for more serious response: Scarf Flygon is ultimately the best counter to Bellyzard in more ways than one. You either have to forego your beloved Fire + Thunderpunch just to kill it at full health and in many cases Scarf Flygon just outspeeds and revenge kills. Bellyzard also struggles immensely with Rhydon which is amazing against Chansey. It's the easiest of the two drum users to stop imo. Another neat strategy is to switch in Milotic as soon as you see Charizard. If it's Belly Drum, 9/10 times it's going to Substitute first and then you simply Haze on the incoming drum. You really fear no other set with Milotic and so it's a safe as heck switch in. Very few players are Drumming first unless they have good scouts. 

 

As for Linoone, well this pup has a very difficult time setting up. It either requires Memento support or a really fortunate match-up. Once it has set-up, you have multiple options for stopping it. Any Flail set can't touch Haunter, well to be fair any set can't beat Haunter since it's slower (unless you switch it in and let it die to Thief). Sturdy mons can phaze it or revenge kill it. Without Flail, it can't beat Skarmory, Forretress, or full health Metagross. Teams dedicated to setting up Linoone are pretty easy to spot, you'll start to notice the certain tendencies to desperately remove your steel type. I would suggest using Shed Hull if you intend on playing Matchmaking and fear Linoone, that way you can retain Skarm or Forretress without sacking them to Magneton. 

 

tl;dr They are skill-less strats to winning, but they can be stopped. Shed Hull Skarm; Scarf Flygon; Steel-types. We have to carry something to handle them. 

yea i know the risks and i know the ways to stop them my point isnt that they are unbeatable my point is they can potentially be uncompetitive if you save your drum user till poke 6.  I mean with a scarf pursuit user haunter is gone and with magneton skarmory/forret/metagross is threatened and breaking sturdy at some point in the game is very easy to do. I dont think u can make the point that most players dont run quickdrum when it is viable. It can turn a game around arguably like no other move. but my point is more that they are skill-less strats to winning as you say and i dont like seeing that in our metagame. You can name all the checks you like but what if someone ran dual drum then there isnt a reliable check for both on one team imo especially when combined with magnet. Flygon is way to brittle to be switching into a zard by the way it doesnt like life orb hp ice. takes roughly 40 from lifeorb hp grass. Giving charizard the option to run 2 tremendous wallbreaking sets on either side is questionable imo.

 

28 minutes ago, BurntZebra said:

I agree belly drum stuff is somewhat uncompetitive, but I think the pokemon itself is more the culprit, more than belly drum itself. Linoone has stab espeed to remove any chance of being revenge killed by faster stuff. I don't think belly drum as a move is broken since stuff like belly drum hariyama or something isn't really a problem. Just like when people wanted tier council to ban curse since snorlax abused curse a lot, but in the end, snorlax was the actual problem, not curse. 

 

I'd say the annoying thing about charizard is that it's a total 50/50 between it being a special attacker set or potentially being a drum set. I've seen many skarmorys get roasted by a flamethrower, attempting to whirlwind out a charizard that could have been the belly drum set. 

I agree with you that its the pokemon that make it somewhat uncompetitive due to zards versatility and linoones espeed. but espeed isnt a broken move nor is linoone a broken pokemon it has base 70 attack. Its belly drum that makes it very hard to stop. The fact that quickdrum zard and quickdrum linoone are also viable sets is worth mentioning as well as the fact that we dont have rocks to hurt charizard/linoone switch ins. Also snorlax/hariyama can potentially make drum sets work especially late game when obvious counters are weakened. weezing cant wow hariyama and snorlax hits skarmory hard with fire punch and weezing hard with return, probably ohkoing both 2 lazy to calc.

and yes i would nearly always flame a skarmory with a mixed set because it really has to ww late game if it wants to have a chance.

Edited January 17, 2017 by sherdoonach

[epicdavenport]

1 hour ago, sherdoonach said:

zard:

if its jolly sitrus zard it outspeeds arca and can ohko without being killed by espeed.

Genuinely confused by this. Do you not know that unless Charizard is also using extreme speed that Arcanine will still go first? Or am I missing something?

[sherdoonach]

Just now, epicdavenport said:

Genuinely confused by this. Do you not know that unless Charizard is also using extreme speed that Arcanine will still go first? Or am I missing something?

Sorry I wrote that incorrectly. What I meant was Quickdrum Zard will be on 75% and at + 5 after an Arcanine switch in.

+5 252 Atk Charizard Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 472-556 (123.2 - 145.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

8 Atk Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 78-92 (26.2 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Charizard wins in this case. Can be revenged killed after I'm aware if a scarfer or faster pokemon remains on the opponents team.

[epicdavenport]

1 minute ago, sherdoonach said:

Sorry I wrote that incorrectly. What I meant was Quickdrum Zard will be on 75% and at + 5 after an Arcanine switch in.

+5 252 Atk Charizard Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 472-556 (123.2 - 145.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

8 Atk Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 78-92 (26.2 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Charizard wins in this case. Can be revenged killed after I'm aware if a scarfer or faster pokemon remains on the opponents team.

Feel like i'm the only person that uses attack invested arcanine.

[sherdoonach]

Just now, epicdavenport said:

Feel like i'm the only person that uses attack invested arcanine.

Faced two attack invested sets today. your set?

 

[epicdavenport]

Just now, sherdoonach said:

Faced two attack invested sets today. your set?

 

252 hp 252+ att

life orb

crunch

extreme speed

morning sun

double kick ( Only for Chansey )

 

[sherdoonach]

2 minutes ago, epicdavenport said:

252 hp 252+ att

life orb

crunch

extreme speed

morning sun

double kick ( Only for Chansey )

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 136-161 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 52.3% chance to 2HKO

Doesn't kill quickdrum.

[Mike]

6 minutes ago, sherdoonach said:

Sorry I wrote that incorrectly. What I meant was Quickdrum Zard will be on 75% and at + 5 after an Arcanine switch in.

+5 252 Atk Charizard Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 472-556 (123.2 - 145.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

8 Atk Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 78-92 (26.2 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Charizard wins in this case. Can be revenged killed after I'm aware if a scarfer or faster pokemon remains on the opponents team.

I mean its not like charizard can have 5 moves and seeing as most like to run tpunch for bulky waters. I forgot the calc of eq on slowbro but milotic lives. Also if you send in arca after zard switches in he cant do shit. Unless hes smart and bdruns right away. But even then you got a pretty expendable team member. And then just outspeed it. And endure zard is pretty unconnon. And if its sub arcanine just beats it 1v1.

 

Bdrum could be considered skilless but its kinda your own fault if you let it drum. Especially when its like 6-6.

[sherdoonach]

3 minutes ago, TheChampionMike said:

I mean its not like charizard can have 5 moves and seeing as most like to run tpunch for bulky waters. I forgot the calc of eq on slowbro but milotic lives. Also if you send in arca after zard switches in he cant do shit. Unless hes smart and bdruns right away. But even then you got a pretty expendable team member. And then just outspeed it. And endure zard is pretty unconnon. And if its sub arcanine just beats it 1v1.

 

Bdrum could be considered skilless but its kinda your own fault if you let it drum. Especially when its like 6-6.

no one belly drums first turn.

[Mike]

Just now, sherdoonach said:

no one belly drums first turn.

I would if its endure and scouted the team a bit ;]

 

But 99% of the time its sub who dont drum first ye

[sherdoonach]

3 minutes ago, TheChampionMike said:

I would if its endure and scouted the team a bit ;]

 

But 99% of the time its sub who dont drum first ye

What i mean is, u can wait till the late game to belly drum too. then those 2hkos turn into ohkos. I dont mean people literally refuse to drum first move charizard/linoone is play because thats a viable playstyle with drum pokes ive been calling it quick drum.

 

Basically if you get to the last pokemon on your opponents team and all of your pokemon are at full health you deserve to win, then you can keep your priority and pokemon that live ohkos and thats all well and good. But for the majority of battles thats not going to happen and that makes belly drum pokes devastating late game sweepers. Another point is that in a long battle you will nearly always get a chance to drum. charizard sets up on clops/weez without haze, forret/skarm/meta especially metas locked into eq, sceptiles, chanseys, some porys, some arcanines.. and probably more.

Edited January 17, 2017 by sherdoonach

[LionKIng]

1 hour ago, BurntZebra said:

I agree belly drum stuff is somewhat uncompetitive, but I think the pokemon itself is more the culprit, more than belly drum itself. Linoone has stab espeed to remove any chance of being revenge killed by faster stuff. I don't think belly drum as a move is broken since stuff like belly drum hariyama or something isn't really a problem. Just like when people wanted tier council to ban curse since snorlax abused curse a lot, but in the end, snorlax was the actual problem, not curse. 

 

I'd say the annoying thing about charizard is that it's a total 50/50 between it being a special attacker set or potentially being a drum set. I've seen many skarmorys get roasted by a flamethrower, attempting to whirlwind out a charizard that could have been the belly drum set. 

Pronblem is bellydrum is uncompetitive threw out the tiers. You also have drumers in NU mainly magmar and poli. 

 

Its uncompetitive just like curselax was for some. It has counters but those counters don't mean shitt if you are forced to lose health on them or lose them threw out the course of a battle. They stay hidden untill the time to use them presents itself and then they just sweep your whole team even if you had checks/counters for them. Just because you were unaware of their pressence. Theres also the fact that zard can get kills because people may think its bdrum and its in fact a special version of it.

[BurntZebra]

1 minute ago, LionKIng said:

Pronblem is bellydrum is uncompetitive threw out the tiers. You also have drumers in NU mainly magmar and poli. 

 

Its uncompetitive just like curselax was for some. It has counters but those counters don't mean shitt if you are forced to lose health on them or lose them threw out the course of a battle. They stay hidden untill the time to use them presents itself and then they just sweep your whole team even if you had checks/counters for them. Just because you were unaware of their pressence. Theres also the fact that zard can get kills because people may think its bdrum and its in fact a special version of it.

I feel like they're a lot less effective in NU due to NU being more offensive with more priority users and scarf users that are actually viable. Magmar is stopped relatively easily by solrock/whiscash on defensive teams. Xatu deals with sitrus magmar as it outspeeds and 4x resists magmars priority. Fearow and scyther both have favorable matchups as they have quick attack for salac magmar sets and scyther 4x resists mach punch as well. Extreme speed raichu also works well as it has higher priority than mach punch. Drum poliwrath is a lot slower than magmar, so in addition to the priority I mentioned before, electrode can outspeed poliwrath. Scarf pokemon like kingler, diglett, pinsir, and any other pokemon above 122 or 134 speed work as well. Scarf pokemon are a lot more viable in NU than OU, as walls in NU aren't quite as reliable as ones in OU. Something like scarf flygon is fairly useless in a lot of OU matchups as it is significantly weaker and doesn't have much to revenge kill as most teams are more defensive in OU. 

[Hotarubi]

IIRC  bellydrum  zard  is very  easy  to  stop you  could  do  it  with  any  priority user  im  pretty  sure....