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[OU Discussion] Chansey


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39 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

I already talked about this with Coolio in team chat for keks how the sentence "Please avoid building your arguments on assumptions of what the OU metagame would look like without Chansey in it." practically stands for "Nothing is stopping us from test banning Chansey" and "Your counter-arguments have no merit". What is even the point of this thread then? Legitimately the only thing you can counter-argue against here is that Chansey is not unhealthy enough and just going back and forth like "Uhuh, yes it is" and "Nuhuh no it isn't".

What it means is that speculations are not valid reasons to not have a test. Why? Well, simply because there is no way to verify what is said until it is verified. Your example "Uhuh, yes it is" and "Nuhuh no it isn't" is exactly what the thread would look if speculations about an unseen metagame were to become the deciding factor at this time. Arguing for or against Chansey's test ban based on facts from the current metagame is imo way more convincing than some Yes/No debate based on unverifiable speculations. I rather see people say "Chansey should not get banned because it is exploitable in several ways like this, this and that" than see people say "I am scared of Alakazam, please don't ban Chansey".

 

39 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

Suspect tests are already used sparsely in battle simulator environment. But in a game that takes massive amounts of time to even create a team it should be used with even less. You can't do all kinds of tiering experiments just because you cannot be sure whether the new metagame is better, even though the reasoning and arguments are there. It also causes lots of really negative things in the game both from gameplay experience and tiering standpoint. First people need to spend lots and lots of times to possibly remake their team for that respective tier. In addition, you shake up the tiers for lower tiers because now Pokemon could be moving up as they come up with anything to replace their Chansey while selling their Chanseys. If you decide Chansey was not worth a ban, you're basically making a huge unnecessary mess and it takes a while to even return to the old state of the metagame because of how the gameplay of PokeMMO works due to its farm nature. I know the point of tiering is to push the competitive experience to the fullest but you cannot do it against common sense. The point of pre-test ban discussion should be to valuate if the expectation value of this suspect test is positive or not. Which, what this is not if I get replied with "well you cannot be sure/your arguments have no merit because no test has happened".

I know what is at stake with test bans which is why I want real reasons to have a test ban or not have one. Reasons based on analysis and facts. I think you also did not realise that the sentence "Please avoid building your arguments on assumptions of what the OU metagame would look like without Chansey in it" applies not only for "Chanseyless OU would be worse" claims, but also for "Chanseyless OU would be bettter" claims. 

 

Edit: Before arguing about expectation value, we need to determine if Chansey is a problem or not.

Edited by gbwead
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With chansey gone. You gonna create the same thing happened earlier in the NU meta. Where you gonna see a lot of battles revenge killing each other in a huge chain reaction. The meta is currently fine. it has enough pressure to make chansey user shit them self what moveset to use on chansey without being bait for several offensive stuffs.

 

No test bann needed imo.

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22 minutes ago, gbwead said:

What it means is that speculations are not valid reasons to not have a test. Why? Well, simply because there is no way to verify what is said until it is verified. Your example "Uhuh, yes it is" and "Nuhuh no it isn't" is exactly what the thread would look if speculations about an unseen metagame were to become the deciding factor at this time. Arguing for or against Chansey's test ban based on facts from the current metagame is imo way more convincing than some Yes/No debate based on unverifiable speculations. I rather see people say "Chansey should not get banned because it is exploitable in several ways like this, this and that" than see people say "I am scared of Alakazam, please don't ban Chansey".

Everyone who has played more than 10 matches in OU knows how to exploit Chansey. Really needs no serious discussion to go there. However, let's revert this argument for a bit. If "I am scared of Alakazam" isn't an acceptable argument, what if you reworded that "Chansey is used because Alakazam is a problem". Holy shit, it almost appears if Chansey is no longer a banworthy Pokemon. All kinds of nice magic tricks you can do with words while the core of the argument remains exactly the same.

 

To be honest, I thought all along that the point of Chansey discussion was to point out it's unhealthy because it's so much better than all the other special walls and therefor unhealthy. If the discussion is about exploiting Chansey, well shit the whole metagame is concentrating in exploiting the shit out of Chansey currently. And everyone still keeps using a god damn Chansey. It's almost like... *drum roll*... THEY HAVE TO. And see, I'm now referring to Chanseyless metagame even when not talking about Chanseyless metagame but explaining why people use Chansey in the first place. Does this pass an acceptable argument now?

 

22 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I know what is at stake with test bans which is why I want real reasons to have a test ban or not have one. Reasons based on analysis and facts. I think you also did not realise that the sentence "Please avoid building your arguments on assumptions of what the OU metagame would look like without Chansey in it" applies not only for "Chanseyless OU would be worse" claims, but also for "Chanseyless OU would be bettter" claims. 

What on earth made you think this? If you really read through my previous posts you really cannot even tell which side of the argument I even am. I was just questioning the fact a really important discussion point is required to be left out and therefor resulting possibly in a worse outcome gameplay wise.

 

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I actually agree with orange to an extent. When discussing a potential offenaive, defensive, or support Uber it is common protocol not to discuss a metagame without them, since it's irrelevant and you would never keep something broken in the meta to check other broken stuff. The logic is "it doesn't matter if you think the tier would go to shit without X, because if X is offensive Uber it needs to be banned" 

 

However when discussing a potentially unhealthy mon, the implication is that a metagame without it would be healthier. In the same vein, discussing a potential centralizing mon carries the implication that a meta without it would be less centralized. Now I know that it's very speculative to discuss an unknown metagame, but that's the challenge with unhealthiness bans and discussions. They're never easy

 

With regards to us having already made up our mind, that's just not true. We took a vote on whether to test ban chansey, and it was 3-3. This one is still very much up in the air 

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Could the TC members (especially the ones pushing for test ban) give a some kind of a list of virtues they hope the metagame will achieve without Chansey and what are the things that determine whether the test period has been successful and proving that Chansey in fact is not good for OU metagame? It seems like we're understanding so differently with gb what even makes Chansey unhealthy if something does, so I kinda want to hear this before arguing any further about anything.

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I don't know why people are surprised about this discussion though. There was one for like 6 months in the old Chansey meta? It's got huge usage now just like before.

 

Sure Chansey isn't going to sweep like you Snorlax but it's probably the biggest brick wall on almost everyones team. It could be centralising or unhealthy, and while the TC vote is 3-3, I'm happy to see a discussion. 

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Is it me or this exact situation happened way too many times? Blissey gets the boot > snorlax gets the boot > Then chansey is test banned to then restart all over again because they then realise sp attackers without a proper sp def wall are just insanely op. 

 

I dream about the day where legends are not only implemented but easyly accessible for comp use, so much will change in our OU and it will be super fun for all the tiers to have a stable OU meta. Without a stable OU meta, the other tiers suffer from these test bans and its really hard to adjust to the changes if you are not an hardcore player.

 

 Totally agree with orange aswell.

Edited by LionKIng
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113.png

Chansey (Wish Support, staller, Cleric, Cancer)

 


Ability: Natural Cure
Bold or Calm Nature

sets include 

- Softboiled
- Wish
- Protect

-AromaTherapy
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic

-Twave

 

With 250 base hp stat and 105 base spdef this pokemon is able to wall out pretty much

any special attack it swaps into.

It is able to sponge and stop any special sweep attack  that comes toward it

and is able to inflict status on the majority of the pokemon

which swap in or out to it.

Though it has viable weakness in its low offensive ability and little to no physical defense

this pokemon forces whoever is against it

to build something just to bait or dispatch this singular threat.

Because of its typing it is a safe swap in any scenario nearly to any special attack that threatens a party.

Though many players rely on a specific strat to stop it Chansey can come in a variety of team builds which

can even be setup to counter someone who built to stop Chansey.

Capable of late game sweep due to the fact that once your

Chansey killer is gone this pokemon is an impassable wall.

With 50% usage half the competitive scene is relying on this blob to sponge attacks for them.

I see this as insisting upon itself as a limitation for team building.

The fact this Pokemon's usage is so prevalent is causing players to have to build to counter it.

With superb defenses allowing her to be an excellent wall, and key player on any stall-inclined team this

pokemon forces anyone playing the OU tier to expect Chansey to cause them problems along the way.

Chansey is very versatile as she can pass enormous Wishes, stop opponents with twave and toxic, and remove

status afflictions from the team with Heal Bell.

Chansey can also remove any status dealt to herself by simply switching due to Natural Cure.

This gives her incredible staying power and the ability to out-stall opposing walls.

Though the pokemon itself is offensively incapable of sweeping to make up for that 

it can perform a late game shut out once all its threats are dealt with.

This Pokemon once again forces other players to build a team around the fact that

Chansey will for sure be in the opponents hands.

I believe this Pokemon is centralizing the tier around itself, and just in doing so it is incredibly unhealthy.

Can you tell me what is more boring than watching someone switch a chansey in against an opposing chansey?

Nearly nothing.

 

 

 

Edited by Hotarubi
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ehem. As far as my experience in OU says, Sp attackers are easily handled by non-chansey. 

I dont have any trouble against alakazam/jolts/starmies, no matter the hidden power, this without using chansey.

However, I found chansey to be the easiest and safest check for all those special attackers( hence the 50% usage last month)

Despite all this, I find chansey much more troublesome in her support role than the special wall role (She is too exploitable for it imo)

If chansey was to be banned, porygon2 would be probably the next choice. The duck, however, can´t handle heavy special hitters besides jolteon.

There are no other pokemon in the tier able of supporting team and checking some special mons with ease (I won´t say wall, cuz believe me. I have like 50 chanseys lures in this game, most of them special oriented mons)

The remains of supporting roles with special walling capabilities resort to umbreon and gardevoir. 

EDIT: (MISCLICKED SAVE):

The first is a set-up bait for a lot of pokemons and an even better bait for spikes users. Psychic mons can still hurt it enough so to force a healing move instead pursuit. (Also, there is trapinch who can still trap and kill it)

The later, while also able to wall jolteon and some other special attackers, can still support team with wow and wish. (The commonness of shadow ball in most pokemon´s movepool, however, makes this a not that reliable check for those special offensive mons)

Lastly, I vote chansey to keep, because while she can check most standard special oriented teams with ease, she is also one of the rare walls in this game that can check some stuff while also supporting team with no drastic changes on the moveset. I´m afraid the ban of chansey would pretty much reduce the use of supporting moves drastically. (therefore changing the tier considerably)

If that type of support was too op to handle, it would be a complete different thing, but its not the case (Either chansey opts to cripple with a status move, either supporting with wish, or healing herself with softboiled, you can switch accordingly and gain essencially a free turn. If she opts to damage.....Seismic toss.... maybe?  Ok you get the point). I don´t use chansey(except offensive kek) but I´m sure that a ban of this pokemon would change the tier to a degree not yet fully known. (both teambuilding and mental wise)

 

 

Edited by pachima
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3 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

It seems like we're understanding so differently with gb what even makes Chansey unhealthy if something does, so I kinda want to hear this before arguing any further about anything.

It is because we are not talking about the same thing. There is a difference between suspecting Chansey to be unhealthy and Chansey acctually being deemed unhealthy. The discussion points are not the same and should not be the same. 

 

4 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

Everyone who has played more than 10 matches in OU knows how to exploit Chansey. Really needs no serious discussion to go there.

Exploitation reaction chain needs to be analyzed here. Is exploiting Chansey's presence easy? What is the cost of exploiting Chansey? Are there alternatives to Chansey in the Chansey metagame? The viability and effectiveness of alternative special walls should change depending on what metagame we are looking at. This is why it would be wrong to go directly into a speculative phase without making a proper analysis of what is going on right now in OU. One step at a time Orange. The last Chansey thread was a complete mess because people were talking about so many things unrelated at the same time. 

 

4 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

Everyone who has played more than 10 matches in OU knows how to exploit Chansey. Really needs no serious discussion to go there. However, let's revert this argument for a bit. If "I am scared of Alakazam" isn't an acceptable argument, what if you reworded that "Chansey is used because Alakazam is a problem". Holy shit, it almost appears if Chansey is no longer a banworthy Pokemon. All kinds of nice magic tricks you can do with words while the core of the argument remains exactly the same.

The reason why I dislike these arguments is because there is always an hypothetical chance that Chansey by its presence in OU makes an Alakazam counter unviable . I remember seeing people right before the Snorlax & Blissey ban in 2015 claiming that without these pokemons special offense would destroy everything. It turns out that Porygon2, Chansey and several other pokemons were able to handle special offense quite well. Porygon2 and Chansey were also UU by usage at that time. Despite all the people saying that they would never be viable in OU, they became quite viable. What I am trying to say is not that we should not speculate, but that we should avoid speculating because there is a limit of what we can conclude based on speculations.

 

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I think a lot of people here use "centralizing" like it's a super negative thing.

It isn't.

Any metagame in any competitive environment will always centralize around something.

Landorus-T was centralizing in Gen 5 and 6 OU but was in no way a problem for it since there was plenty of stuff to deal with it.

 

It only becomes a potential problem when it's overcentralizing and/or unhealthy.

 

Some things that have to be taken into account: whether the TC views Chansey as a Pokemon that is so unhealthy that it prevents metagame development or when they view Chansey as a Pokemon that forces every team to run gimmick stuff that is otherwise useless in order to deal with it. Or when they believe it inhibits skillful play.

 

Personally I think it's too early too say. I think people (even myself) are trying to figure out certain viable strategies that are good in their own right and good against Chansey.

 

We need to give it more time before saying it prevents metagame development. I guess this is kinda what Orangemaniac is saying.

 

Also, Pokemon like Metagross and Flygon are good in their own right, not necessarily because Chansey is super good. I wouldn't go as far as saying the entire metagame looks like this because of Chansey and only Chansey.

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4 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

Could the TC members (especially the ones pushing for test ban) give a some kind of a list of virtues they hope the metagame will achieve without Chansey and what are the things that determine whether the test period has been successful and proving that Chansey in fact is not good for OU metagame?

@gbwead

 

Now that you quoted to my post and therefor shown you have read it, I really would like to hear this because what comes to test ban this is really important and there's nowhere to be seen anything regarding this in OP.

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5 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

Everyone who has played more than 10 matches in OU knows how to exploit Chansey.

6 minutes ago, Tranzmaster said:

Personally I think it's too early too say. I think people (even myself) are trying to figure out certain viable strategies that are good in their own right and good against Chansey.

Did you just confirm being bad Tranz?

 

2 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

@gbwead

 

Now that you quoted to my post and therefor shown you have read it, I really would like to hear this because what comes to test ban this is really important and there's nowhere to be seen anything regarding this in OP.

Well keep in mind that this is not a test ban announcement, but a discussion thread that, in the event of a test ban, will serve to determine the potential test ban expectations. We are not there yet and perhaps we will never go to a test ban.

Also, I haven't revealed my position on Chansey publicly, so I don't know why you are singling me out. I will express myself on Chansey eventually, but I still need to gather my thoughts. I will go online soon, so if you wish and if you are online as well, we can talk.

Edited by gbwead
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It's like you guys are creating the best scenario whenever someone is using a chansey. A lot of Chansey users got under pressure of changing movesets simply because of the good progress in the OU tier. 

 

We don't need a test bann or whetever, like Tranz said we need more time to see how far the progress goes. You can't deny how well the progress went since Lax got banned. Just simply look at the chanseys now and right before the bann of lax. Chansey has lot of choices to make simply because of all the new progress made in this meta. Whetever someones choice of movest on chansey wrecks ur team is a different story.

 

No test ban no need no tyvm smd smh.

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Well, here's my point of view: it's not normal for a Pokémon to be used by 50% of OU players. And we're talking about Chansey, I mean... Natural Cure? Not a problem. 250 HP/105 special defense base stats? Not a problem either. But the complete combo of switching out and healing its status problem, being almost 'un-OHKO-able' (did I just make up a word?), healing a 50% of its maximum HP, and using just one boring damage dealing attack. What's the point of all of this?

You can't play anymore the way you want to play, you can't use anymore the Pokémon you like to use, because if so, you already know you're probably going to lose against Chansey. You have to create a team composition while thinking 'what should I use to beat Chansey?', and it takes SO away the originality and versality of the game. It's not anymore about using a decent composition, having coverage, trying to fit UU/NU Pokémon in OU tier. It's all about beating Chansey. And that's the worst part: Chansey's users make you to be like them, automated players who don't think at all and use a Pokémon just because it's broken, otherways, you won't won anything. And that's not even 'playing'.

Edited by Abrilsnow
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Over centralizing seems like a bad thing to me. 50% usage is for sure too much.

In turn I feel this is proof that this pokemon is Unhealthy and will continue to be more Unhealthy as time makes its progression I don't see it dropping in usage any time soon, hey who knows maybe it will get even more used.

Also isn't the  risk of being set-up bait for a number of pokemon the only actual weakness Chansey presents to a team that keeps Chansey?

It being used in the way it is by everyone because it presents an unfair advantage to other teams causing players to have to carry something which in many circumstances ends up being useless against anything except Chansey.

Lets not forget many players use trapinch or other pokemon which use mean look to stop chansey.

The item Shed Hull allows Chansey to avoid these counters making Chansey an even more formidable wall to deal with.

Though its not Over Powered it does seem to me that it is more than just broken.

It allows not only scouting but also possible crippling status and unfair advantages end game if the trainer using Chansey is capable of defeating or dispatching the threats to Chansey.

Its healing abilities and support characteristics force anyone fighting it to treat it as a huge threat.

Though it is Iconic for the OU Tier this pokemon causes everyone who wants to play OU to specialize in dispatching, or baiting Chansey.

Though many users carry things like trick and other simple gimmicks like the Move Taunt, Chansey itself has many ways around the several checks and counters people come up with.

 

Edited by Hotarubi
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24 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Well keep in mind that this is not a test ban announcement, but a discussion thread that, in the event of a test ban, will serve to determine the potential test ban expectations. We are not there yet and perhaps we will never go to a test ban.

It really shouldn't work in this order. You're first making a decision to test ban something and then you decide why is the test ban better option than permaban? Shouldn't you first tell the community why a test ban would be a beneficial and tell them what are the goals and virtues you want from this test ban and they can valuate if this test ban if helpful? It really sounds like you just want something banned for being bad for the metagame, and if that's the case just ban the Pokemon. Test ban almost feels like you wanna soften the blow with a "test ban".

 

24 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Also, I haven't revealed my position on Chansey publicly, so I don't know why you are singling me out. I will express myself on Chansey eventually, but I still need to gather my thoughts. I will go online soon, so if you wish and if you are online as well, we can talk.

Alright, I usually tend not to assume stances but the way you defended a test ban made me feel like you were really for it publicly. Fair enough, then.

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15 minutes ago, Kanzo said:

sweep with rain dance

What walls off a rain team other than Chancer ? 
Ludicolo, Milotic, Tentacruel, lanturn, VENU and many other pokemon.

I'm pretty sure Chansey isn't the only Special wall players can run to  and Hide behind from the rain.

Also I don't think Chansey being removed would cause the kind of extreme scenario that you can describe as

MINDLESS revenge killing over and over with bands.

There are many other walls and plenty of other strategy that isn't solely dependent on an easy go to wall like Chansey.

It is the easy button and well at least that is my stance on it.

 

Edited by Hotarubi
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Just now, Hotarubi said:

Ludicolo, Milotic, Tentacruel, lanturn, VENU and many others.

I'm pretty sure Chansey isn't the only Special wall players can run and Hide behind.

Still not gonna stop the chain reaction of revenge killing each other. I rather want to see our OVER USED meta have more thoughts and skill behind it then just some simple offensive vs offensive life orb here life orb there pursuit pursuit rain dance meta...

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6 minutes ago, Kanzo said:

Still not gonna stop the chain reaction of revenge killing each other. I rather want to see our OVER USED meta have more thoughts and skill behind it then just some simple offensive vs offensive life orb here life orb there pursuit pursuit rain dance meta...

I don't see how removing Chansey would cause that. Please explain? 

I don't think it has that very much pull. TBH I feel that it is actually shaping the Meta into a stall based one in which

certain pokemon are used only as a ploy to remove Chansey.

I don't imagine it being an offensive life orb dominated meta just because Chansey is not in the mix.

I did say this before. There are many other walls, though they aren't as EASY to use they do exist and they are viable.

I feel like Chansey actually removes the requirement to accurately predict and wall but makes it easy to wall with no predict required.

I also think that its due time for a test. This pokemon is problematic and surely abused via usage as it is easy to exploit how broken it really is.

Edited by Hotarubi
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Chansey has 5 base attack and 35 special attack.
A pokemon that can simply heal, is clearly a setup bait. And the best thing it can do is to inflect poison or paralyze, a thing that guts users can take advantage of.

Chansey is merely used to somehow wall strong threats temporarily, while figuring out a way to counter attack them, because chansey is inoffensive. A threat such as Specs / Calm mind Alakazam, can abuse its ridiculous 135 special attack base, and thus sweep an entire team once a thing like scarf metagross or scarf heracross is knocked out.
Now, if people have a hard time dealing with chansey, in my opinion they just clearly lack skills and counter-attack tactics.

Things like Haunter can take advantage of teams with chansey, as it is immune to its non-existant offense, unless you wanna use ice beam with such a ridiculous base special attack. 

0 SpA Chansey Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Haunter: 25-30 (20.8 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
 
Does chansey really fit uber characteristics ? that's clearly a joke.
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