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[OU Discussion] Chansey


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36 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

I mean, I do understand half of the sets he said were gimmicks, but the other half are just probable win cons that aren't just good vs chansey but other things too when played right.

Yeah but if we start shitposting might as well go all out.

 

If half the gimmicky shit he posted to inflate his argument counts then Growth Venu loses to CM Chansey and so do his awful Jolteon and Espeon sets that were already debunked as unviable in anything but a 1v1 situation. Block Forretress loses to Flamethrower Chansey, Sub Flail Milotic loses to Defense Curl Counter Chansey, etc.

This is why defensive Pokemon don't get banned in general. Because people think "Oh it doesn't wall literally everything therefore it's balanced" unlike offensive Pokemon who can break through a lot of things, Smogon calls things as Uber defensive when they "wall a large portion of the metagame" but they never define how large, and they never take into account how Pokemon interact with others. An entire attacking type isn't large enough I guess.

I know I got told to stop this, but I literally can't since they are pretty much the same Pokemon: Blissey got banned for having too much use, overshadowing most alternative special walls, and being too safe, Chansey is doing exactly the same thing with around the same usage, you can abuse both of them in the exact same ways people posted itt, in either shitty roundabout ways like "use block perish song rest Misdreavus" or incredibly obvious ways like "send a guts fighting type". The Blissey ban here was pretty much the one time I've seen anyone ban a defensive Pokemon for a reason other than "it makes hazards battles unfair". But if you're gonna retract on the same banning policies the second time it happens then you might as well not have banned it in the first place.

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26 minutes ago, suigin said:

Yeah but if we start shitposting might as well go all out.

 

If half the gimmicky shit he posted to inflate his argument counts then Growth Venu loses to CM Chansey and so do his awful Jolteon and Espeon sets that were already debunked as unviable in anything but a 1v1 situation. Block Forretress loses to Flamethrower Chansey, Sub Flail Milotic loses to Defense Curl Counter Chansey, etc.

This is why defensive Pokemon don't get banned in general. Because people think "Oh it doesn't wall literally everything therefore it's balanced" unlike offensive Pokemon who can break through a lot of things, Smogon calls things as Uber defensive when they "wall a large portion of the metagame" but they never define how large, and they never take into account how Pokemon interact with others. An entire attacking type isn't large enough I guess.

I know I got told to stop this, but I literally can't since they are pretty much the same Pokemon: Blissey got banned for having too much use, overshadowing most alternative special walls, and being too safe, Chansey is doing exactly the same thing with around the same usage, you can abuse both of them in the exact same ways people posted itt, in either shitty roundabout ways like "use block perish song rest Misdreavus" or incredibly obvious ways like "send a guts fighting type". The Blissey ban here was pretty much the one time I've seen anyone ban a defensive Pokemon for a reason other than "it makes hazards battles unfair". But if you're gonna retract on the same banning policies the second time it happens then you might as well not have banned it in the first place.

 

Don´t take my other post too serious. Its supposed to be a joke.

Now, regarding chansey and blissey. Both of them act as special sponges. Both have the same sets, typing, bla bla bla.

There is, however, one thing that puts blissey on top of chansey. It´s base special attack is far from not usable, which doesnt happen with chansey (20 base sp atk, kek)

While most chanseys do shit against venu, meta, haunter, trapinch, and only rely on status to cripple opposing teams, blissey can deny a lot of common switch-ins with a super effective move out from her amazing arsenal.

Providing, you want two moves for supporting stuff, you can easily pack blissey with flamethrower + something else (maybe hp grass for rhydon/swamp if they prove threateningly) so all those chansey switches prove to be a not that safe switch against blissey.

My point is that you cant really compare chansey to blissey just for their defensive abilities when blisey´s offensive abilities are in a level way beyond of chansey´s.

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55 minutes ago, suigin said:

Yeah but if we start shitposting might as well go all out.

 

If half the gimmicky shit he posted to inflate his argument counts then Growth Venu loses to CM Chansey and so do his awful Jolteon and Espeon sets that were already debunked as unviable in anything but a 1v1 situation. Block Forretress loses to Flamethrower Chansey, Sub Flail Milotic loses to Defense Curl Counter Chansey, etc.

This is why defensive Pokemon don't get banned in general. Because people think "Oh it doesn't wall literally everything therefore it's balanced" unlike offensive Pokemon who can break through a lot of things, Smogon calls things as Uber defensive when they "wall a large portion of the metagame" but they never define how large, and they never take into account how Pokemon interact with others. An entire attacking type isn't large enough I guess.

I know I got told to stop this, but I literally can't since they are pretty much the same Pokemon: Blissey got banned for having too much use, overshadowing most alternative special walls, and being too safe, Chansey is doing exactly the same thing with around the same usage, you can abuse both of them in the exact same ways people posted itt, in either shitty roundabout ways like "use block perish song rest Misdreavus" or incredibly obvious ways like "send a guts fighting type". The Blissey ban here was pretty much the one time I've seen anyone ban a defensive Pokemon for a reason other than "it makes hazards battles unfair". But if you're gonna retract on the same banning policies the second time it happens then you might as well not have banned it in the first place.

 

1 hour ago, Spaintakula said:

I mean, I do understand half of the sets he said were gimmicks, but the other half are just probable win cons that aren't just good vs chansey but other things too when played right.

I didn't even read it completely, but I get your point. In our current meta, chansey is played mostly to fill a defensive/walling role, not be a potential wincon with CM sweep or some shit. Which is why I said the other half of those sets can just as easily be a wincon vs chansey as against any other exploitable mon. 

BUT yeah, it is shitposting, with some truth maybe

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On 2/18/2017 at 7:48 AM, pachima said:

How to beat chansey with every OU comp.

venu: leech, growth, etc etc.

chari: focus punch

Arca: subreversal

alakazam: focus punch

Machamp: Bad matchup but if you are skilled enough to press superpower, you are fine

Slowbro: focus punch

Magneton: rest, recycle(optional), metal sound, tbolt- chesto berry.

Dodrio: stab return

Haunter: perish trap

Marowak: A bone in her head.

Weezing: pain split, taunt

Rhydon: Tackle, maybe

chansey; subpunch

Kanga: another subpunch

Starmie: Psych up swagger, or even camouflage facade

Tauros: any banded stabbed decently powered move.

Gyara: Rip chansey

Jolteon: growth, rest

Aerodactyl: Banded set

Typhlosion: focus punch.

Feraligatr: same as gyarados

espeon: same as jolteon

umbreon: Taunt + toxic + moonlight (mean look if u wish to trap that shit)
Forre: block + rock smash + pin missile

Heracross: Legend says no chansey has faced heracross and survived to tell the tale

Ursaring: Bears like eggs

Skarmory: taunt + toxic + rest

Houndoom: banded beat up

Kingdra: ddance rest

Porygon2: Banded facade, trick, sharpen, pain split (anything, really)

Sceptile: sd, focus punch, bla bla

Blaziken: Have a brain.

swampert: cant be toxiced, 2hkoes her ez

linoone: drumspeed

ludicolo: leech seed, sd, bla bla bla

Garde: mean look + cm + rest + damaging move (rip chansey and sweep afterwards)

Breloom: Press fight + damaging move

Slaking: This one is tricky: all depends if chansey has protect or not, use vigoroth instead.

Hariyama: Most hariyama struggle with chansey as she can 6hko it with seismic toss, but as long as you possess a fighting move, she can no longer pose a threat.

Medicham: As a medic, its chansey´s rival, easy matchup.

Flygon: EQ, super power, bla bla

Zangoose: Easy sweep, sub for twave, return for easy kill

Milotic: Sub flail

Dusclops: mean look+ subpunch

Metagross: Literally wrekcs her

 

You still want it banned?

 

Chansey used counter. 

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  • 2 months later...

can we do something about it already? OU could be so much better withouth chansey and it´s already too obvius that chansey will be always the top used poke in the tier... not even the super cool, original, and totally unstopable chansey counters seem to do be that much effective (maybe because chansey is perfect at supporting the walls that stop chansey counters?)

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5 hours ago, LuisPocho said:

can we do something about it already? OU could be so much better withouth chansey and it´s already too obvius that chansey will be always the top used poke in the tier... not even the super cool, original, and totally unstopable chansey counters seem to do be that much effective (maybe because chansey is perfect at supporting the walls that stop chansey counters?)

LOL

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5 hours ago, LuisPocho said:

can we do something about it already? OU could be so much better withouth chansey and it´s already too obvius that chansey will be always the top used poke in the tier... not even the super cool, original, and totally unstopable chansey counters seem to do be that much effective (maybe because chansey is perfect at supporting the walls that stop chansey counters?)

I recommend using another Chansey.

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6 hours ago, LuisPocho said:

can we do something about it already? OU could be so much better withouth chansey and it´s already too obvius that chansey will be always the top used poke in the tier... not even the super cool, original, and totally unstopable chansey counters seem to do be that much effective (maybe because chansey is perfect at supporting the walls that stop chansey counters?)

you don't even log and play OU that much iirc, why are you saying all these things like they are true 

 

Chansey is not OP lol, in fact I see it as bait to a shit ton of things which makes the person using chansey lose the game. Examples: Bdrum Linoone, Haunter (people who switch in chansey vs haunter should die), Ursaring, Machamp (benefit from guts with twave or toxic), the latter will definitely kill something in your team if you activate guts on them. Can't think of more atm, but im pretty sure there are many more. The fact that most people like to run it cuz it is a good special wall doesn't mean that it's an OP poke. 

 

TL;DR Chansey is trash 

Edited by BlackJovi
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4 hours ago, BlackJovi said:

you don't even log and play OU that much iirc, why are you saying all these things like they are true 

 

Chansey is not OP lol, in fact I see it as bait to a shit ton of things which makes the person using chansey lose the game. Examples: Bdrum Linoone, Haunter (people who switch in chansey vs haunter should die), Ursaring, Machamp (benefit from guts with twave or toxic), the latter will definitely kill something in your team if you activate guts on them. Can't think of more atm, but im pretty sure there are many more. The fact that most people like to run it cuz it is a good special wall doesn't mean that it's an OP poke. 

 

TL;DR Chansey is trash 

how can you tell if I dont play that much if you are half dead?

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8 hours ago, Murcielago said:

^He prolly read ur post dude... if your complaining about chansey odds are your bad at OU.

This is *exactly* what you kept saying in Snorlax thread for few pages.

 

We all know how it turned out

 

I am on phone and about to go to work so I might elaborate a bit later on the topic of Chansey itself, although it's more from observations rather than experience cuz I play OU once a month

 

E:

Also...

*You're

Edited by RysPicz
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Chansey is on 46% teams. The reason why? It's an incredible pivot with Wish, it hinders CB users, it can spam status, and it can actually wall some shit. The downside? Not much, except it can be turned into set up bait with some smooth play. In our current meta, it's the top of the food chain. Not necessarily a bad thing, well unless you lack creativity. 

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15 hours ago, DiDi said:

chansey is too hard to beat today i used starmie forretress arca milo dusc and weezing and it just walled my whole team i could not believe it as i sat there being walled that this cancer is still ou someone please do something

 
 

use reversal on arca, swagger + psych up on starmie, taunt + pain split on weezing, block on forre with either toxic rest or rock smash rest, replace milo for vaporeon so to go flail set.

Edit: forgot dusclops, since it was so obvious. Go subpunch set.

Edited by pachima
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10 hours ago, RysPicz said:

I am on phone and about to go to work so I might elaborate a bit later on the topic of Chansey itself, although it's more from observations rather than experience cuz I play OU once a month

HYPE :D 

8 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Chansey is on 46% teams. The reason why? It's an incredible pivot with Wish, it hinders CB users, it can spam status, and it can actually wall some shit. The downside? Not much, except it can be turned into set up bait with some smooth play. In our current meta, it's the top of the food chain. Not necessarily a bad thing, well unless you lack creativity. 

I agree, chansey is that poke that people use cuz it outclasses the other special walls, but that doesn't make it an OP mon like some people say here... It's easily abused aswell, if you can't abuse it you simply lack creativity or you are bad like @Murcielago said 

3 hours ago, pachima said:

use reversal on arca, swagger + psych up on starmie, taunt + pain split on weezing, block on forre with either toxic rest or rock smash rest, replace milo for vaporeon so to go flail set.

Edit: forgot dusclops, since it was so obvious. Go subpunch set.

Lul 

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7 hours ago, pachima said:

use reversal on arca, swagger + psych up on starmie, taunt + pain split on weezing, block on forre with either toxic rest or rock smash rest, replace milo for vaporeon so to go flail set.

Edit: forgot dusclops, since it was so obvious. Go subpunch set.

Or use something normal, like Heracross.

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10 hours ago, BlackJovi said:

I agree, chansey is that poke that people use cuz it outclasses the other special walls, but that doesn't make it an OP mon like some people say here... It's easily abused aswell, if you can't abuse it you simply lack creativity or you are bad like @Murcielago said 

we are not talking about any random in normal at 3am... when decent players use chansey its not like as "a chansey? oh free guts ez", if chansey has a weakness can be easily solved by team building... its not easily abused (while chansey itself can exploit 90% of the meta)

 

dont you agreed there is too much stall in OU? tell me you dont really think the only reason for that is players lacks imagination or because everybody is plain bad #murcielagosogood

Edited by LuisPocho
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15 hours ago, LuisPocho said:

we are not talking about any random in normal at 3am... when decent players use chansey its not like as "a chansey? oh free guts ez", if chansey has a weakness can be easily solved by team building... its not easily abused (while chansey itself can exploit 90% of the meta)

 

dont you agreed there is too much stall in OU? tell me you dont really think the only reason for that is players lacks imagination or because everybody is plain bad #murcielagosogood

Sure, there is a lot of stall. But only non creative players can't break stall in OU, we definitely have too many weapons in the tier to be crying about stall imo. 

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16 hours ago, LuisPocho said:

we are not talking about any random in normal at 3am...

What are we talking about then?  Ranked Matchmaking vs. top 100 players?  Late rounds in officials? Please don't take this the wrong way but, your name doesn't ring a bell when I think about that level of competition.

 

I will agree that chansey is a good pokemon.  If a newb straight out of pallet town asked me what he should breed first, chansey would certainly be the answer.  But that alone doesn't make it broken, and that alone doesn't mean it should be banned.

 

I understand your struggling vs. chansey but the remedy to this issue is to improve your game play and team building, not banning chansey.  IMO the people complaining about chansey will simply be subject to more and harsher beat downs if it actually does get removed from the tier. (just like Hothot and snorlax).

 

I think @BlackJovi did a good job of laying out some of the many reasons why this argument to ban chansey is foolish.  I know I myself have pieced together some well thought out and legitimate arguments as well.  But after a while repeating ourselves over and over gets old.

 

When I see people complaining about chansey, my reaction is more-or less the same to when that kid commentating on my matches said "Why would anyone ever use return vs. skarmory, this guy is an idiot!"  - "these kids are newbs"

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Hmmm I've been watching a lot of officials and have seen something quite interesting. A lot of people just bring teams that wall stuff rather than bring mons that can break walls. This usually resulting into 2 hour matches of 4v4s consisting of chansey/forretress/porygon2/starmie just being unable to get a kill. And kind of forced to PP stall.

 

Especially after such a long time of having this discussion up I really have not seen the meta become more offensive, which I really thought it would become. I don't know why but a lot of people sleep on such strong mons because they don't have high usage. Or for whatever reason. But pokemon like Swords Dance Zangoose, Endure/Reversal Blaziken, Choice band Machamp. Hell even something like a Choice banded Dodrio paired with a Magneton is really nice atm. And some of the more popular pick these days: Ursaring. And that is really not all.

 

I've been playing some OU matches lately and no real team can take a hyper offensive team of skarmory+5 strong attackers. Just getting that 1 or 2 spikes up really supports such a team with getting the KO on some mons. This way spinners have no way to spin because of the pressure the attackers give. The reason why I might enjoy this kind of play style might be because of DPP OU. SweeT and I talked about it the other day and both agreed that playing this tier has really helped us play offensively. Btw for the people that aren't that familiar with DPP OU, it is quite offensive and 1 missplay could be very punishing if you do it at the wrong time. But if you play everything well you win. 

 

From my personal experience I really do not have any problems with Chansey at all. It usually ends up losing the match for my opponents rather than winning it. As I could sac a pokemon to it and bring out a sweeper and set up in it's face. Ofcourse Chansey is annoying if you bring like 4 walls and you hardly have any offensive pressure to begin with. Just because your team building results into more bulky doesn't mean it's a broken mon. It just means you should prepare for it better. 

 

Also it's usage has even been lowering over the course of the past months. So really it is not banworthy in my opinion at all. Everything has basically been said at this point but I just wanted to let my opinion go on it.

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Lack of stealth rocks is what prevents offensive teams from being rampant in MMO. The only spikers we sadly have are very defensive which slow down momentum or allow starmie to switch in and just spin away the hazards. Because of not having hazards up, you can't punish your opponent through double switching either because they then just keep getting an extra turn of leftovers recovery. Also I feel that this hasn't been stated a lot, but Chansey is a huge, huge pain to take down if you're using choicebanders because of the defensive core that Chansey surrounds itself with. Thanks to protect Chansey can scout the move and if the Chansey user has hazards up, it can go the counter thus forcing you to keep switching and you're just screwed. To break defensive teams it's highly necessarily that you have some sort of wish support if you're using choice banders or try to accommodate a swords dance user. 

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10 hours ago, TheChampionMike said:

Especially after such a long time of having this discussion up I really have not seen the meta become more offensive, which I really thought it would become. I don't know why but a lot of people sleep on such strong mons because they don't have high usage. Or for whatever reason. But pokemon like Swords Dance Zangoose, Endure/Reversal Blaziken, Choice band Machamp. Hell even something like a Choice banded Dodrio paired with a Magneton is really nice atm. And some of the more popular pick these days: Ursaring. And that is really not all.

 
  Thats the whole point isnt it? if wallbreakers and offensive play is so good on paper, why the meta is that defensive at all levels (ranked, tournament, psl)?

 Watching the matchs I saw that wallbreakers are great, but they have their own problems... its very easy to bring an aero against SD ursa after chansey wish... machamp is only that good once it activate guts... rhydon has problems against milotic... normal spam is not that great with shed hull around... life orb flygon doent hit that hard... every SD has this problem against pursuit users... SD hera needs to have the righ 3rd attack...etc etc

 

 My point is, you have way moooooore plays to do against ursa than against chansey.. wich means that its easyer to stop the chansey counter than abusing chansey... and thats why imo stall team and chansey are so popular, decent players understand that they can use a chansey withouth being abused that easily (or I can be a total asshole and say that only bad players and people who lack imagination get their chansey abused)...

Edited by LuisPocho
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Sigh didn't really want to make another post but here we go.

 

Quote

 Thats the whole point isnt it? if wallbreakers and offensive play is so good on paper, why the meta is that defensive at all levels (ranked, tournament, psl)

You basically answered this yourself later on, defensive is easier and safer to use and doesn't take that much predicting compared to offensive. Doesn't exactly mean offensive is bad though. Just means people like to play it safe.

 

15 hours ago, LuisPocho said:

Watching the matchs I saw that wallbreakers are great, but they have their own problems... its very easy to bring an aero against SD ursa after chansey wish... machamp is only that good once it activate guts... rhydon has problems against milotic... normal spam is not that great with shed hull around... life orb flygon doent hit that hard... every SD has this problem against pursuit users... SD hera needs to have the righ 3rd attack...etc etc

Sure offensive has it's own problems, but not a single team is perfect. Which is honestly an amazing thing about pokemon. I agree that Ursa lacks speed and that it can easily get countered by wish>a faster mon that can take a +2 return. Oh wait not a lot of pokemon are there that can. And statusing it really doesn't help you either.

 

Spoiler
+2 252+ Atk Ursaring Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl: 135-159 (87 - 102.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

 

Now this part triggered me, don't ever call my boy machamp weak.

 

Spoiler
252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 97-115 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 97-115 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 142-168 (70.2 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
And once it is statused even Weezing ain't stopping it.
 
252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Machamp Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 125-148 (72.6 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
 
Ofcourse Machamp is very hit and run like, but it really isn't weak without guts.

I don't like Rhydon either. Normal spam not that great with shed hull around? You mean the shed hull Forretress/Skarmory who will lack recovery from their leftovers and get more easily beaten by normal spam? Not quite sure what you mean with every SDer has a problem with pursuit. When it really doesn't. 2 of the most popular SDers even resist pursuit (Heracross and Blaziken).

 

And I'm sorry but Life orb Flygon not that great? It ohko's/2hko's it's most common switch ins like forretress/skarmory. Only Milotic can really take it well. And Weezing gets 3hko'd. Which it also does with banded Dragon claw. Also to come back on the protect thing. Life orb Flygon is so great because of this, since it doesn't get locked into a move and more defensive teams can't abuse it.

 

Spoiler
252+ Atk Life Orb Flygon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 317-374 (88.7 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Life Orb Flygon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 133-156 (77.3 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Life Orb Flygon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Forretress: 296-354 (162.6 - 194.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Life Orb Flygon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 66-78 (38.3 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

15 hours ago, LuisPocho said:

My point is, you have way moooooore plays to do against ursa than against chansey.. wich means that its easyer to stop the chansey counter than abusing chansey... and thats why imo stall team and chansey are so popular, decent players understand that they can use a chansey withouth being abused that easily (or I can be a total asshole and say that only bad players and people who lack imagination get their chansey abused)...

Chansey does everything right I agree, it does support teams really well and it has somewhat of a risk-free thing in the current meta. But let me remind you something that is going with gen 7 OU atm. Landorus-Therian currently has like over 60% usage. But it isn't getting banned. It is arguably the best stealth rocker and Z-move user in the game. And this thing can be Scarf or Band aswell. Hell I've even seen a special version. Yet it doesn't get banned because of usage or centralization. Because there are counters for it. Chansey HAS counters, a lot of them. And with the right plays you can easily beat a stall team. You said it yourself, Chansey is really just a pokemon that can be thrown on any team and it does work. Yes. Does that mean it's centralizing and/or uber defensive? No. It just means it is a good mon but not broken. It is not like a Snorlax that has both offensive and defensive pressure. And the annoying 85 base power stab move that can paralyze. Chansey is a support pokemon, ofcourse it's going to give your team more sustain. But really if you think a little bit out the box of the forretress/chansey/porygon2 cores. It really isn't that hard to beat such teams.

 

EDIT: I think this meta is actually quite good, offensive balanced and stall are all viable. I wouldn't want to get Chansey see banned because it is a nice mon to have around. Even though I hardly use it myself.

 

tl;dr: Chansey is good, not broken.

 

Now I think I'm done because as I said everything is just being repeated at this point.

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