[OU Discussion] Chansey

[suigin]

1 hour ago, LuisPocho said:

someone show me last time they saw those worked against good players

I don't doubt that they work but a lot of them are just massive gambles(Trick) and the others are almost trying to reinvent the wheel. Wish Jolteon loses to Toxic Chansey, Rest Jolteon sets up on Toxic Chansey, then rests and the opponent then proceeds to calmly switch an earthquake user while a giant cartoonish question mark appears above their head, Metal Sound Magneton has to hit the 85% acc move twice to be able to 2HKO it vs a Pokemon that can 3HKO it. Fake Tears Jolteon, while meme as fuck, works, yet it also needs to use the move twice to be able to 2HKO it with LO Thunderbolt against a Pokemon that can 3hko it with Seismic Toss. Sub Haunter is reliable but switching into T-Wave hurts it a shitload and like I mentioned, a memester can use Psychic Chansey to mess with it. Venusaur is perfectly valid as an answer, no complaints here, it just doesn't like T-Wave but it's far from useless if T-Waved. Calm Mind Espeon dislikes T-Wave which makes it vulnerable to pretty much any pursuit user such as the powerful Poochyena and Toxic also limits him.

 

To beat Chansey as a special attacker you need.

a) Set up

b) Recovery

c) Immunity or a way to heal status

d) An non-ghost type offensive move

 

Alternatively just Trick a Choice item.

 

However to beat Chansey and her team as a special attacker you need:

a) Set up

b) Recovery

c) Immunity or a way to heal status

d) An non-ghost type offensive move

e) Coverage

f) Don't be Pursuit bait

 

Alternatively don't trick any of her 5 teammates your choice item.

 

 

Sounds like a Calm Mind Morning Sun Psychic Heal Bell Espeon would do pretty well here right? But then Poochyena switches in and your ass is grass.

Taunt Recover Psychic, Coverage Alakazam is a 7hko on Chansey. Remove Coverage for CM? Poochyena. Remove Taunt? Status/Recovery happen, Remove Recover? Seismic Toss, Remove Psychic? You do even less damage.

Sub/Growth/Wish/TB Jolteon? You're Grounded

Sub/Growth/TB/HP Jolteon? Seismic Toss will break those subs while you're unable to heal and boost up or deal enough significant damage to bring it out

Sub/Wish/TB/HP Jolteon? You will deal negative damage

Growth/Wish/TB/HP Jolteon? Toxic bait that won't muster up enough boosts to take Chansey down before the counter hits 0

Sub/Growth/Wish/HP Jolteon?

+6 252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Hidden Power Grass vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey: 311-366 (48.4 - 57%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is +6 with Specs on top of that. And you become pursuit bait

Sub/Swagger Jolteon? Disgusting

SleepTalk Jolteon? You're either Grounded or don't beat Chansey anyways.

 

For the record Jolteon needs 3 Growths and Espeon and Zam also need also 3 Calm Minds and a LO before being able to 2HKO Chansey, a pokemon that 3HKO's them without any boosts thanks to Seismic Toss so they need to be on point with their healing, while avoiding status AND boosting before attacking.

 

Haunter is good but if the Chansey user nails it with t-wave on the switch, then it won't be good.

 

By the way Poochyena cannot learn Pursuit so I sure feel silly now, it actually learns Heal Bell for some reason though.

 

Point is to beat a Chansey with a pure special attacker you need a good amount of free turns or luck.

And maybe you need to scout which status it has.

If it has both you're screwed.

You have your own team tho to break through it.

But the OP said special attackers that beat Chansey

But I also added in stuff like ground types and pursuit

But whatever it helps my argument since the game is 6v6 and I can blatantly ignore the original argument to help my own argument.

 

add psyshock, u-turn and volt switch thanks @Kyu

Edited January 30, 2017 by suigin

[Coge]

On 1/19/2017 at 8:01 PM, pachima said:

focus punch will.

And houndoom.

EZ.

trapinch outspeeds paralyzed 130 base, it can trap paralyzed porygon as well.

[Erayne]

4 hours ago, LuisPocho said:

someone show me last time they saw those worked against good players

Show me last time I lost against a chansey :P

[Bilburt]

I should read more

Edited January 30, 2017 by Bilburt
Smh

[Erayne]

28 minutes ago, Bilburt said:

Just because you found a way of dealing with chansey

doesnt mean its overly viable

sub punch alakazam fully atk invested can kill chansey too

Yea but seriously, all those I listed are totally viable, and saying they can be countered is kinda obvious ( any pokemon can be countered). The point is these pokemon punish the chansey user quite hard. Let's take vaporeon for exemple: if it sub and you don't expect it and you twave or seismic toss on it, you're pretty much screwed. While if you expect it you're gonna switch out and get hit by a modest vaporeon (which makes quite a lot of damage). So the chansey user will be discouraged to use chansey. The high usage of chansey is only due to the laziness of the pokemmo players, it's not because of the meta, but I'm quite sure that in some months Chansey is gonna be easily countered and usage will drop

Edited January 30, 2017 by Erayne

[Mike]

Gonna quickly drop how chansey looks in OU atm from my pov.

 

Its not getting used as much anymore as it used to. People finally seeing the porygon2 hype and they be using that. Also stuff like Sp.Def Venu or Milotic. Chansey really doesnt oppose a problem anymore to any team if you can team build alright. Yeah its bulky and gives nice support to teams. But it isn't unbeatable. Its definitly not uber worthy imo

[Kyu]

3 hours ago, suigin said:

add psyshock, u-turn and volt switch thanks @Kyu

but those aren't in johto

[RysPicz]

7 minutes ago, Kyu said:

but those aren't in johto

And I thought Tranz jokes are bad.

[Kyu]

3 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

And I thought Tranz jokes are bad.

what jokes

[Bilburt]

Just now, Kyu said:

what jokes

Your face

[Kyu]

Just now, Bilburt said:

Your face

that is very rude and I do not appreciate your comment

[Bilburt]

Just now, Kyu said:

that is very rude and I do not appreciate your comment

Im sorry?

[Kyu]

Just now, Bilburt said:

Im sorry?

ok thank you

[Bilburt]

Just now, Kyu said:

ok thank you

Good that we could work this out

[suigin]

8 hours ago, Kyu said:

but those aren't in johto

bugsy disagrees

[LuisPocho]

12 hours ago, Spaintakula said:

I don't think that really matters too much. Just by numbering them alone, and factoring in how chansey can't interfere too much with them shows they're a viable way of abusing chansey's presence. Which is one of the things it clearly denies: Chansey isn't "unbeatable" by any means.

It's not chansey's fault directly for those sets not being run too often, but the metagame itself and how poorly our players interpret it, atleast the ones who don't have fun with it.

 

 Threre is a point, imo most of those chansey abuser are more gimmick counters that are just a waste in most cases, and they are not even 100% sure against chansey

 Chansey IS beatable, but by far not as abusable as you want to point... its like tyranitar can be beated by hitmontop, so its not op?.... having some gimmick counters that only works against that specific poke or that are waste after scouted are not true counters

 For example, sub/growth vapo, it cant even free come against chansey, because chansey can status vaporeon... even if it manages to kill chansey, if its surf/ice it can do nothing against water type, if it is surf/hpeletric it gets walled against plants... not only that, if the enemy has no chansey, it doesnt work against pory, maybe it does against umbreon

[Spaintakula]

4 minutes ago, LuisPocho said:

 

 Threre is a point, imo most of those chansey abuser are more gimmick counters that are just a waste in most cases, and they are not even 100% sure against chansey

 Chansey IS beatable, but by far not as abusable as you want to point... its like tyranitar can be beated by hitmontop, so its not op?.... having some gimmick counters that only works against that specific poke or that are waste after scouted are not true counters

 For example, sub/growth vapo, it cant even free come against chansey, because chansey can status vaporeon... even if it manages to kill chansey, if its surf/ice it can do nothing against water type, if it is surf/hpeletric it gets walled against plants... not only that, if the enemy has no chansey, it doesnt work against pory, maybe it does against umbreon

The whole point people mentioned sub growth vapo specifically is because it has access to growth WHILE being able to pull off a HP investment where a sub is broken by 2 seismic tosses rather than 1, which gives it a much better matchup. Also, pointing out "it can't switch in easily 'cause status" could be said about every other god damn wall/tank/whatever that has access to status, and shouldn't really be regarded as a valid point. And some of them aren't gimmicks at all, but just creative ways to exploit a currently dominant pokemon in the metagame, which has happened over and over again to some degree in every single generation of competitive battling.

Also, do keep in mind we're only numbering specially oriented "Loopholes" to deal with chansey. I hope you already know that there's double the ways to abuse it once you calculate in the remaining mons that can abuse her stale pace.

[xilias]

I don't get why people want to break a sp.att wall,with sp.att sweepers,it's her fucking job to wall sp.att,and even then you can break it in some situations,it's like you're complaining about shuckle because you can't break it

Spoiler

smh

 

[Erayne]

Just now, xilias said:

I don't get why people want to break a sp.att wall,with sp.att sweepers,it's her fucking job to wall sp.att,and even then you can break it in some situations,it's like you're complaining about shuckle because you can't break it

  Reveal hidden contents

smh

 

Cuz they say chansey can wall any special sweeper. I just showed it's definitely not true

[xilias]

1 minute ago, Erayne said:

Cuz they say chansey can wall any special sweeper. I just showed it's definitely not true

yeah I was talking in general

ED:and testing the new sig/avatar ,they're lit tbh

Edited January 30, 2017 by xilias

[Tranzmaster]

10 hours ago, Kyu said:

what jokes

DOTA

 

[LuisPocho]

6 hours ago, Spaintakula said:

The whole point people mentioned sub growth vapo specifically is because it has access to growth WHILE being able to pull off a HP investment where a sub is broken by 2 seismic tosses rather than 1, which gives it a much better matchup. Also, pointing out "it can't switch in easily 'cause status" could be said about every other god damn wall/tank/whatever that has access to status, and shouldn't really be regarded as a valid point. And some of them aren't gimmicks at all, but just creative ways to exploit a currently dominant pokemon in the metagame, which has happened over and over again to some degree in every single generation of competitive battling.

Also, do keep in mind we're only numbering specially oriented "Loopholes" to deal with chansey. I hope you already know that there's double the ways to abuse it once you calculate in the remaining mons that can abuse her stale pace.

   how many time did you see those work in good players matches? even if they worked, how many times did you see those counters not being easy revenge killing? how many times did I see  those weird sets not working as intended? quite a lot

 I could accept your point If I ever see those pokes being that much succesfull (I mean, not only deal with chansey, also be a problem after killing chansey or something)

 I think the only viable pokes that can abuse chansey are growth venu (if chansey not tw) and physical wallbreakers in general... you cant say 1 attack alakazam or 2 attacks move vapo are viable... 

Edited January 31, 2017 by LuisPocho

[suigin]

10 hours ago, Erayne said:

Cuz they say chansey can wall any special sweeper. I just showed it's definitely not true

Reminds me of

 

Another good gem is

Sadly the so called variety resulted in a 50% of Chansey usage.

I'm not sure how much usage Blissey had in may/june 2015 since that was around the time I joined MMO but I wouldn't doubt it was around the same as Chansey's current.

Reading the Blissey discussion thread (which is a fucking mess because it intertwines Snorlax discussion) the main reason why it was banned was to let other special walls shine since Blissey was pretty much the safest bet if you wanted to wall special attackers (Besides Snorlax) and there was no reason to run Umbreon, Ludicolo, Porygon or Gardevoir while she was around.

The arguments against banning Blissey were pretty much the same as the ones against banning Chansey "Just set up on it", "Just use this gimmicky set on a special attacker to beat it",  "I've literally never lost to Aegislash in gen7, why ban it", "Guts buttblitzes it", if I missed one I am sure it was posted in this thread too. Granted we now have more offensive oriented items yet Blissey was insta-banned less than a week after the new items were released for being on literally every team along with Gengar.  

 

Then the thread has a big amount of theorymonning regarding what would be unleashed after the ban of the normal type blobs, arguments over banning policies, arguments over how metas work, comparisons with Smogon's meta,  name calling, drama,"game health", broken BBCode and quotes, please ban Dugtrio and Gengar. After the bans things got "chaotic", people were getting plowed by Gengar, CM Espeon and Growth Jolteon until people discovered Porygon (And to a lesser extent Gardevoir) dumpstered Jolteon and I have no idea what happened to Espeon but it gets like two posts of "oh fuck this guy is too strong" and then vanishes from the discussion and Gengar's most viable counter was Umbreon but still lost to sub-disable but then Gengar got banned so whatever. Then the thread becomes a massive argument about Gengar.

 

But yeah I feel like Chansey has all the same advantages and flaws Blissey had, having one banned while the other runs rampant because it "deals less damage with ice beam, a move that was used just to break Gengar subs" is absurd. Both require 3 spatk boosts by Jolteon/Espeon/Alakazam to get 2HKO'd while she can 3HKO back or status them. Both have the same utility, same usage, same shape, same color, same ability and about the same offensive capabilities (Blissey could break Gengar's subs, now Chansey can break Haunter subs if it wants) either free Blissey or ban Chansey.

Edited January 31, 2017 by suigin
I mixed Ban+Chansey and typed Bansey

[Cameron]

unban lax and stop talking abt this ty

[OrangeManiac]

I think the biggest contradiction with Chansey's presence is that it provides diversity in terms of archetypes but the downside is that it is as far from skillful playing as it can possibly get. I think the true skill of a player is determined when a player has to make some risk every turn they make. With Chansey, you don't. It's getting boring for knowing so easily when the Chansey switch is about to come because even the Chansey user does not seem to care even if they were predicted.

 

But what comes to "skill", it's a very subjective term in something like a Pokemon game and in order to argue something is skilless you really need some strong community consensus to reach that conclusion. I just don't think we have that.