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[OU Discussion] Chansey


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14 hours ago, Bluejim said:

Giving the current state of the OU metagame – where Chansey’s usage sits over 50%, the TC wonders if Chansey might be centralising to an unhealthy degree. We do not believe Chansey fits any Uber characteristics or leads to a significant degree of uncompetitiveness. For this reason, we would like the focus of this discussion thread to be on whether or not Chansey could be seen as unhealthy.

 

1. How do you feel Chansey’s presence in OU affects teambuilding and duel progression?

2. Does Chansey’s presence in OU inhibits or encourages skillful plays?

 

Please avoid building your arguments on assumptions of what the OU metagame would look like without Chansey in it.

Please refrain from making statements that you do not relate to Chansey's potential healthiness or unhealthiness. We know Chansey walls a big portion of the OU tier, but what does that change in terms of skillful plays and teambuilding. We know Chansey can be quite passive, but what does that change in terms of skillful plays and teambuilding. 

 

Lets be honest with ourselves here, Chansey is too "safe" for people to use. I'll answer BlueJim's  two questions that he has asked....

 

1. I feel that people are relying too much on Chansey to win fights....

 

a) Trapinch and Diglett: Shed Hud

b) Growthers: Throw in weezing to haze it up

c) Machamp and Blazekin: knock them out first and then throw in Chansey to throw the opponent off guard.

d) Trick: Have one wall you don't care about and let Starmie trick that wall and then throw chansey in.

 

Overall, chansey is just too easy to ride on. If I was a good breeder, I know what to breed that would make me near 900k, Chansey. Chansey is a gold mine and for good reason. Due to Chansey's "brick wall" special defence plus toxic, its game over for anyone with a Jolteon or Starmie left.

 

2. I do not think that Chansey has any skillful play. Chansey can take any hits from Jolteon and Starmie. I am not going to tell you how to play these walls because BlueJim does not want me to say how they will effect the meta without Chansey. I'll let you draw your own inferences and we will keep this post 100% Chansey related, but I will list some alternative walls in my head that have a chance not to be so safe so you can start breeding: Umbreon, Vapereon, Porygon2, and Milotic.

 

My conclusion is a simple one, test ban the pink blob of terror to see if Chansey haters like myself are correct or incorrect. If I am proven incorrect, you can gloat to me that the Chansey sceptics are newer players and should buff up their skills. I am not sure how many people have an awfully negative opinion of me since I advocated for Chansey to be test banned, but I feel that it might need to be done to prove people's theories right or wrong.

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33 minutes ago, Lazaro23 said:

Chansey has 5 base attack and 35 special attack.
A pokemon that can simply heal, is clearly a setup bait. And the best thing it can do is to inflect poison or paralyze, a thing that guts users can take advantage of.

Chansey is merely used to somehow wall strong threats temporarily, while figuring out a way to counter attack them, because chansey is inoffensive. A threat such as Specs / Calm mind Alakazam, can abuse its ridiculous 135 special attack base, and thus sweep an entire team once a thing like scarf metagross or scarf heracross is knocked out.
Now, if people have a hard time dealing with chansey, in my opinion they just clearly lack skills and counter-attack tactics.

Things like Haunter can take advantage of teams with chansey, as it is immune to its non-existant offense, unless you wanna use ice beam with such a ridiculous base special attack. 

0 SpA Chansey Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Haunter: 25-30 (20.8 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
 
Does chansey really fit uber characteristics ? that's clearly a joke.

Chansey isn't setup bait though, really. You're so focused on Chansey's offense, but what you should be recognizing instead is its extremely good walling and supporting capabilities. Blissey had high enough sp attack to use the elemantal sp atks, but you still saw it commonly use stoss + status set because it's simply great at covering a lot with so little moves. There really isn't much that can switch on Stoss/Twave/Toxic, and no, not even guts users enjoy coming in on a twave unless they have a heal bell/aroma. The only things that can come in on Chansey without scouting the moveset is Chansey, other NC/Trace users or Nidoqueen/King, most of them ending up in stall other than King and its viability is questionable. Lastly, Chansey doesn't need to be super offensive, a lot of the time it'll just wish pass to something else that can get them momentum.

Edited by KaynineXL
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I have been playing a lot of hyper offense so maybe thats why i have this opinion, but i dont see chansey as being a big problem. It takes prediction to not be somewhat crippled by her, IE not switching in your metagross until you know if she has twave or not, but even when you get punished by chansey its not that punishing and there are ways around it.

 

My personal favorite chansey counter is ursaring with lifeorb. He loves coming in on Toxic. Twave is problematic somewhat because you now are slower than chansey and parahax but if you dont have terrible rng you can dispose of her quickly. If you dont get chansey with ursaring chances are if you play him right you will get something else. Ofc this takes prediction but thats a part of the skill of the game.

 

Chansey doesnt really put any pressure on a team like snorlax did. If she comes in on starmie then there is no real risk in leaving starmie in and taking a siemic toss in an attempt to scout the status (especially if the starmie has recover). If she comes in on a wish user such as jolt then you have pretty much a free switch into something. And finally if you can fit a heal bell pokemon on your team then the status that chansey spreads become very easy to deal with.

 

All in all the worse part about chansey is knowing her moves. Once you know the status or if she has counter (thats is a thing now) then she is very easy to exploit. I wouldnt argue against a test ban but im also not advocating for it atm (maybe in the future)

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27 minutes ago, Kanzo said:

I'm too lazy to do calcs for u or anyone her who hates chansey because it simply shut down their entire team without brining 1 of severall stuffs that can abuse the presence of chansey.

 

what are u doing vs an alakazam +1? espeon +1? Gardevoir +1? what are u doing with rain dance kingdra? rain dance ludi? yep trying to revenge kill it. With chansey there is more thoughts and skill behind it to use those mons and set up. even those mons have easier checks.

 

lol all what you are saying is that withouth chansey we gonna be able to use many sets and pokes that are not very viable now... I think thats a good thing

And no, they are not unstoppable

Damn, its too hard to not speculate what would happen withouth chansey, specially when they ask you how it affects your teambuild

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Just now, Kanzo said:

@teamko 

You can't force people to use other shitty walls. playing in a tier as Over Used you gonna use the stuffs that checks most things and has the best viability to win the game. This ain't just fun tier lets play whatever i want. After chansey gone people will find something else that checks as much as it can.

 

 

That's how pokemon need to get played. u have offensive pokes u have support pokes u have bait pokes u have spike set up pokes. They are all part of this meta to be used in such fight to see who has the skill and mind to beat each others.

 

I would agree if I thought we had a decent heal bell/aroma user. Chansey loses out on something big to take it and Garde isn't that great overall anyway. Jolteon feels like the type that really doesn't want it, but is forced to use it because nothing else will.

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12 minutes ago, KaynineXL said:

There really isn't much that can switch on Stoss/Twave/Toxic, and no, not even guts users enjoy coming in on a twave unless they have a heal bell/aroma. The only things that can come in on Chansey without scouting the moveset is Chansey, other NC/Trace users or Nidoqueen/King, most of them ending up in stall other than King and its viability is questionable. Lastly, Chansey doesn't need to be super offensive, a lot of the time it'll just wish pass to something else that can get them momentum.

Are you telling me you freak out once you face a chansey ?, because like you said, "There really isn't much that can switch on Stoss/Twave/Toxic"
Do you really not have an answer to chansey's seismic toss, twave and toxic ? Like does it really give you a hard time ? If that's the case, well I'm disappointed.
 

Spoiler

If you're being serious, well then I can share some ideas with you if you want, you won't even have to worry about twave or toxic, thus you'll use them at your advantage, kill chansey, and you will sweep with your preferred special attacker.

 

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3 minutes ago, Lazaro23 said:

Are you telling me you freak out once you face a chansey ?, because like you said, "There really isn't much that can switch on Stoss/Twave/Toxic"
Do you really not have an answer to chansey's seismic toss, twave and toxic ? Like does it really give you a hard time ? If that's the case, well I'm disappointed.
 

  Hide contents

If you're being serious, well then I can share some ideas with you if you want, you won't even have to worry about twave or toxic, thus you'll use them at your advantage, kill chansey, and you will sweep with your preferred special attacker.

 

When I say there isn't much that can switch on Stoss/Twave/Toxic, are you telling me that's not true? If so, go ahead, list all your names.

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Is this a fucking joke? if anything bring snorlax back...

 

We havent even finished a test ban yet and now you want to ban chansey?

 

This is insane. if chansey is to much of a problem for you... guess what...

 

YOUR BAD.

 

Being bad at the game is not an excuse to ban unbroken pokemon.  Seems like its time to clean house on the TC, the fact this thread even exists reeks of incompetence.

 

is meta w/o snorlax = more centralized than when lax was around then the test ban is a fail and bring lax back. 

 

There is nothing unhealthy or uncompetive about chansey... not at all. I'm shocked and disappointed that this thread even exits.

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My stance  is  this.

Without chansey many other Pokemon become viable and would be used much more often. Not only to fill the void that removing chansey  leaves  but  also because chansey  itself substantially  walls  certain  mons.

 

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35 minutes ago, Kanzo said:

@teamko 

You can't force people to use other shitty walls. playing in a tier as Over Used you gonna use the stuffs that checks most things and has the best viability to win the game. This ain't just fun tier lets play whatever i want. After chansey gone people will find something else that checks as much as it can.

Of course we can't, what do you mean? Read the reasons why I think Chansey is stupid. This meta with the 50% of the tier using Chansey forces the other 50% to use team compositions just to beat it. JUST TO BEAT CHANSEY. And that's really sad and lame.

 

8 minutes ago, Murcielago said:

There is nothing unhealthy or uncompetive about chansey... not at all. I'm shocked and disappointed that this thread even exits.

Whoa, Batman. Do you know what is unhealthy? Being such sensitive. Calm down.

In my opinion, being bad makes you use Chansey without having to predict or use any strategy or something like that because, you know, lots of advantages on its side.

Edited by Abrilsnow
Meh
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@Kanzo

Let me get this straight. Are you saying that because a Pokemon isn't a no-brainer Swap in against any special attack used that it's a shitty special wall?

I think there's a lot of special walls that are very viable very useful and very fun to play. I really don't see very much fun in every other battle or almost every single battle including a stall battle with Chansey.

 

Edited by Hotarubi
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To be blunt 50% usage is really crazed.

It puts all other pokemon in a usage shut out with 20% higher usage than anything else.

That can't be healthy. 

Everyone is to assume that to Partake in the OU tier you Have to use Chansey or build to counter it?

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4 minutes ago, Kanzo said:

Go ahead use a chansey let's see if u can win an official with it.

 

Calling others bad lmfao.

I worked really hard to breed my own walls, with strategic movesets and based on a whole team composition, and I'd never use Chansey. I'll prefer to leave it for those who don't know how to predict/counter special sweepers/use another more difficult support or wall. Because, you know, it's pretty basic: switching to take damage but heal, suffer status problem for 1 turn and then heal it too and use Seimic Toss/Thunderwave once in a while not to seem that stupid. And that's all, that's all the mystic and magic of the pinky egg used by such great and competitive players.

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5 minutes ago, Kanzo said:

a shitty special wall

In this scenario you are saying that every other special wall is shit and that chansey trumps them?

It seems more healthy to me than watching stall match after stall match end with chansey weezing vs chansey forettress.....

I mean really?

I don't see that removing this pokemon would create anything but a healthier meta.

This aside, it seems obvious this pokemon is currently at 50% usage and will rise in usage as time goes on.

Edited by Hotarubi
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12 minutes ago, Kanzo said:

In fact it's one of the last resort a player have to still take the win when he fails to win with skills or mind games.

So in the end it should fall onto Chansey bulk to win a match?

I felt that competitive and healthy competitive play revolved around players winning with skill or mind games.

Over all doesn't over centralizing cause an unhealthy and stale ground to play in?

The consistent usage of Chansey itself makes for a match in which people can only assume they will face Chansey.

Is this healthy? I am asking that.... Is it healthy to expect to see Chansey in nearly every battle and does it raise any questions?

Is there a reason over half of everyone is running Chansey? 

Is Chansey forcing players to build toward taking it down in specific or is it also even forcing them to USE IT?

 

 

Please avoid building your arguments on assumptions of what the OU metagame would look like without Chansey in it.

 

Please refrain from making statements that you do not relate to Chansey's potential healthiness or unhealthiness.

 

We know Chansey walls a big portion of the OU tier, but what does that change in terms of skillful plays and teambuilding.
I myself feel that it puts heavy limitations on what players can put into a team and what they cannot put into a team.

They must for sure build something that can kill Chansey 9/10 times or they will not succeed in the match overall.

 

We know Chansey can be quite passive, but what does that change in terms of skillful plays and teambuilding. 

 

Chansey itself gives and edge and a stall based one to the team in which it stands on. It can allow players to exploit a late game win with a stall battle based entirely around bulk. That is not in any way skill based.

Edited by Hotarubi
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5 minutes ago, Kanzo said:

Chansey easily loses any stall matches. But i ment "stall" as in general.

When it comes down to a match that which I described earlier.

Chansey Weezing vs Chansey Forettress. Is that based entirely on skill?

I feel that this kind of line up in an end match shows how this pokemon can be Unhealthy.

I feel that the Pokemon chansey puts emphasis on the fact that No special attacker can do anything as long as chansey is around.

I feel this is being abused and I think that is unhealthy but only so much when its at 50% usage and above.

Edited by Hotarubi
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35 minutes ago, Kanzo said:

You must be very unlucky bro.

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If chansey gets the test bann  we gonna see lot of weird shit flying arround revenge killing each other untill people finally find that one mon that checks most stuffs and sweepers.

I appreciate the advertisement to my YouTube channel, but I do not think it is pertinent to our discussion. I gave 4 alternative walls that could serve Chansey's purpose without being too OP. I hate citing my wall examples for this, but I feel like I have to...

 

Rain dancers: Get a Milotic or Vapereon.

alakazam, Gardevoir, and espeon (+1): Get an Umbreon

 

Chansey is the 4 walls thrown in a blender. Porygon2 has the "Normal" type, Milotic and Vapereon have the sp def bluk, and Umbreon can be used as a cleric (Heal Bell and Wish). To answer BlueJim's 2nd question...

 

" Does Chansey’s presence in OU inhibits or encourages skillful plays?"

 

The answer (in my opinion) is no. I feel like having one or two of these walls are good for the type of play style you want. Need a cleric? Invest in an Umbreon. Want to only have one weakness? Invest in a Porygon2. Do you feel that Starmie is trying to surf sweep you, if so, invest in a Vapereon.

 

 

I am not sure what you mean by "revenge killing", but I'll try my best to answer your argument. If your talking about the move "Revenge", invest in a Quick Attacker or an ExtremeSpeeder. Or your probably talking about an opponent that can sweep, if that is the case, invest in 3 or 4 walls to block the threat. Chansey does not give room for much risk. Chansey is like the "safe" option that you store.

 

 

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Ok I've read most of the thread and there is one thing that actually bother me. Why the heck are you saying you build a team primary to counter chansey? It is so untrue, you build a team to counter real threats like gyarados. with some offense poke some defense poke and then you need a special wall: chansey is just the safest of them. If chansey alone can wall you're entire team then yeah you suck. At last chansey is not scary at all and one of the easiest pokes to abuse. Maybe not every sweeper can be sent on a chansey but cmon you all know what is a double switch which is pretty easy to predict

Edited by Thunderprime
Cellphone
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Obviously chanseys usage is going to be sky hi, we only have 2 viable special walls that dont have to rely on resistances and prediction. For the most part i just see bad players crying that they arent skilled enough or creative enough to exploit someone for using chansey. It obviously does its job well of walling special attackers and if you just mindlessly throw attacks at it with starmie or jolteon, you wont be able to break it.  I play ranked pvp most days and although i usually use chansey myself i win the majority of my duels by being able to exploit people for using it. If you look at the three highest rated players on the ladder, they all run porygon2 instead of chansey precisely because the latter can be abused and porygon cannot be setup on as easily and, if you are just stalling with chansey for turn after turn your just granting your opponent to make a good switch and regain momentum.  No matter what the meta we will always have something rise to the top in terms of usage, this does not mean its broken just a product of us having so few things that can fill the role of special wall. Its been 2 months now without snorlax and chansey was just the most obvious choice to replace it, as time goes the tier will develop more ways to exploit it and its usage should taper off once people become more comfortable with methods of abusing it. Chansey is a great wall but it has its flaws and can be exploited with proper team building and play.It shouldn't be test banned.

 

Another side note that i think might be relevant is that porygon is a gender-less breed and probably 5-6x more expensive then a chansey to make. Newer players are much more likely to breed a chansey then a porygon when you account for that which obviously contributes to the usage. 

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Chansey is a good wall and a good cleric/support you can argue that it might be too good

but honestly chansey gives people so much room to predict and make plays

and thats what I think is so great about the competitive scene. Having to make plays and great predictions to assure victory

and lets be real. If you really want to beat chansey, youd start using rhyhorn and less gimmicky teams/pokemon 

but sure if you really want chansey banned appeal as much as you want

all im seeing is people getting frustrated by a pokemon that exceeds in what it does

and that is wall

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