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[OU Discussion] Chansey


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Giving the current state of the OU metagame – where Chansey’s usage sits over 50%, the TC wonders if Chansey might be centralising to an unhealthy degree. We do not believe Chansey fits any Uber characteristics or leads to a significant degree of uncompetitiveness. For this reason, we would like the focus of this discussion thread to be on whether or not Chansey could be seen as unhealthy.

 

How do you feel Chansey’s presence in OU affects teambuilding and duel progression?

Does Chansey’s presence in OU inhibits or encourages skillful plays?

 

Please avoid building your arguments on assumptions of what the OU metagame would look like without Chansey in it.

Please refrain from making statements that you do not relate to Chansey's potential healthiness or unhealthiness. We know Chansey walls a big portion of the OU tier, but what does that change in terms of skillful plays and teambuilding. We know Chansey can be quite passive, but what does that change in terms of skillful plays and teambuilding. 

 

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I  think the problem of the Chansey usage rate is not something that directly comes from the pokemon itself but from the overall metagame of Pokemmo. If you ban her (and yes I absolutly loathe Chansey), the result will simply be a shift to Porygon2 with support from a few handful resists/immunities. So many chanseys don't even have spdef invest nowadays so there's little difference..

 

In my opinon, the fact that most of the biggest physical threats are (rightfully) banned means that the risk of losing momentum associated with switching on Chansey is lower.

What would you do against Chansey?  The number of decent answers is limited in my opinion (assuming you're playing a "standard" team), and they are also very easily shut down

 

Physical sweepers? just fall back on Weezing/Milo/Arca

Guts users ? Potential kill but most often easily RK since they end up crippled

Spikers ? you get to para them which isn't that bad + they bring quite low pressure on their own, allowing you to take back the lost momentum

 

What pokemon can truly take advantage of Chansey then ? Metagross and Venu (2nd and 3rd) to which there's no true "safe" switch among the common OU pokemons. 

The big 3 banned threats (Dnite Salamence Tyra) have in common with Venu/Metagross that  they don't have any truly reliable pokemon you can switch on to "sponge" them, and I think that the lack of pokemons of this kind is the reason this meta doesn't se much diversity from a stalling point of view.

(please note: I'm not advocating for the return of Salamence Dnite and Tyra, the cons would vastly overweight the pros)

 

In conclusion I think Chansey is indeed unhealthy for OU because she limits teambuildding, but I'm not sure if she should be banned for it

 

tl;dr: standard offense is low, makes it difficult to punish conventional stall cores even when playing ahead -> encourages players to abuse conventional stall cores

 

I'm just trying to give my interpretation of the issue, as for an answer... I haven't thought that far

 

 

Edited by aeeaeeaaa
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 Finally... Chansey is too good, so many strong points... but for some reason many people think chansey is balanced because it has a few "weaknesses".

 The problem is, those weaknesses are not that a big problem. Choice banders are totally scouted by chansey (sometimes ever walled); it can thunder wave growth venussaur; calm minders/growth users are forced to run a max of 2 attacks moves to be able to set against a chansey wich totally cuts its offensive power; about wallbreakers, the wish support often is enought to heal the wall that gonna stop that wall breaker... trapinch is the best way to kill chansey but you pay it by loosing an slot in your party... maybe spike user is the best way to exploit chansey


  Im not saying that you cant exploit chansey, but its not that easy and it wont get that much advantage from exploiting chansey: "chansey is easily exploitable" is a myth

That means only one thing: chansey is the safest play most of the time.... your enemy has a special attacker? bring chansey; your opponent sent a wall? switch to chansey; there is a chansey in front of you? your chansey is the best answer... in a match with chanseys, half the turns are played by chansey. You used slowbro to stop aero? attack or using status is a bad idea, the only good idea is insta-switch to a pshysical attacker so you can exploit chansey before it can wish


  Thats what I hate about chansey...  OU walls and tanks has no offensive power because of that pink blob. One should be able to do a good prediction with Arca and heavy damage something (like happens in UU and NU). You cannt use life orb on some amazing pokes with descent offensive power and bulk like Arca, Weezing, Slowbro, Garde with chansey around...

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Such a blatant disregard for tiering policies here is very worrying. I would like it to be brought to the attention of everyone that there is currently a poll on the KO thread about the optimal metagame for OU and keeping snorlax was clearly winning, ignoring this sets a very dangerous precedent where the TC is ignoring their true leader and thinking that they can think for themselves is absolutely disgusting. I'm sure when seeing the results of the poll and then seeing that the Snorlax ban is permanent Hotarubi will be very annoyed that her beloved Snorlax is gone, and now you are trying to take Chansey as well?

 

So that my post has content:

Spoiler

 

How do you feel Chansey’s presence in OU affects teambuilding and duel progression?

I don't think anyone can argue that Chansey will be the #1 factor when building teams both in terms of beating it and also likely taking up one of your team spots. Does this make it unhealthy? If we are using the definition of unhealthy that is "It's fat and annoying and I don't like seeing it everywhere." that has been to effective at getting things banned in the past, then yes. If we are using the definition of unhealthy that it is unhealthy then outside of having high blood pressure and cholestorol, no. There are always going to be S ranked shit that define the meta and now with orb and specs around there really isn't any viable options that are capable of sufficiently walling some of the offensive that's around. Even snorlax struggled a lot with some of them just narrowly avoiding 2hkos now with lax chansey is almost needed on a lot of 'standard' teams.

 

Does Chansey’s presence in OU inhibits or encourages skillful plays?  

I'm sorry I just saw the words chansey and skillful in the same sentence and I couldn't take it seriously any more.

 

 

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How do you feel Chansey’s presence in OU affects teambuilding and duel progression?

  • In my opinion, Chansey absolutely defines our current OU tier. I have been pretty active in matchmaking recently and have fought Chansey in almost every battle. I have to take great consideration when building my team in order to have the appropriate defensive balance to effectively stall and/or beat Chansey each and every time. This means I have to consider sets that include Wish support, Thunderwave, Toxic, Seismic Toss, Substitute, Counter, etc. Recently, many players have taken the option to run dual status on Chansey, having both Thunderwave and Toxic. Chansey is so easily "splashed" that it can effectively come in on any number of pokemon and spread status in an effective 50/50 with one move or the other. Maybe it will catch Flygon with Toxic, maybe it will catch Metagross with Thunderwave. Either way, Chansey has a number of weapons to cripple a team and my teams are built specifically to counter and take advantage of Chansey. Centralization? Certainly. 

Does Chansey’s presence in OU inhibit or encourage skillful plays?

  • I honestly feel that having Chansey in OU does both. Using Chansey in my opinion inhibits skill. You have relegated yourself to using one pokemon that can effectively stall out at least half the tier, including many common threats such as Starmie, Jolteon, Venusaur, Ludicolo, Gardevoir, etc. Chansey is an incredibly safe option, with few drawbacks. If your offense can't OHKO Chansey, it will likely be crippled by some form of status just to get some damage in. I run some fairly offensive teams, and even then I seem to find myself in a stall match with a Chansey by late game. As for the other side of the coin, players that are against a Chansey must get creative in order to take advantage of this overused threat. Whether that is by using Taunt, Block, Perish Song, Substitute, Growth, etc, we are seeing a lot of diversity in offensive threats and the fact that Chansey is so popular has a lot to do with it. Unfortunately, there are also some cheap ways of removing Chansey such as Trapinch or Diglett, but then again this readily "splashable" pink blob can just carry Shed Hull and avoid those all together. 
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Just now, KaynineXL said:

There's other things, such as umbreon.

Umbreon pursuit doesnt ohko without investment

and if anything id gladly accept the healthloss knowing my opponent brought set up bait

and as far as walling any other pokemon goes, sub growth jolt would have free reign and umbreon cant do anything againt growth venu

without chansey there are maybe 2 viable special walls: pory and umbreon

and as far as I know pory is 2hko and umbreon isnt such a big threat with signal beam

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6 minutes ago, Bilburt said:

Umbreon pursuit doesnt ohko without investment

and if anything id gladly accept the healthloss knowing my opponent brought set up bait

and as far as walling any other pokemon goes, sub growth jolt would have free reign and umbreon cant do anything againt growth venu

without chansey there are maybe 2 viable special walls: pory and umbreon

and as far as I know pory is 2hko and umbreon isnt such a big threat with signal beam

Here's the thing, without Snorlax and Chansey, you'll need to team build to support your special wall. If you're bringing Umbreon, it may be wise to also bring a Swampert which can switch into Metagross(which switches on Umbreon easily) and 99% of Jolteons with ease.

 

We're so used to one special wall walling the whole tier that some people look past this, and I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing.

Edited by KaynineXL
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Just now, KaynineXL said:

Here's the thing, without Snorlax and Chansey, you'll need to team build to support you special wall. If you're bringing Umbreon, it may be wise to also bring a Swampert which can switch into Metagross and 99% of Jolteons with ease.

 

We're so used to one special wall walling the whole tier that some people look past this, and I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing.

Im all for banning chansey as long as there is s reliable way of countering the threats 

I just want to point out that having to bring 2-3 pokemon just to wall the special threats leaves you open to physical threats

if anything I was happy knowing that chansey could wall most special threats so that I could bring 2 or 3 physical walls to make sure I had good support for my sweepers

but without chansey I can only see me bringing either 6 walls just to be able to survive

or bring pursuit users knowing that doing so would make me really vulnerable to predictions

 

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14 minutes ago, Bilburt said:

Im all for banning chansey as long as there is s reliable way of countering the threats 

I just want to point out that having to bring 2-3 pokemon just to wall the special threats leaves you open to physical threats

if anything I was happy knowing that chansey could wall most special threats so that I could bring 2 or 3 physical walls to make sure I had good support for my sweepers

but without chansey I can only see me bringing either 6 walls just to be able to survive

or bring pursuit users knowing that doing so would make me really vulnerable to predictions

 

I'm not saying I want Chansey banned, although I don't like the Chansey meta either.. So I don't think I care about OU at this point. Maybe with Chansey removed I'd like it again, who knows.

 

You don't need 6 walls to beat offensive mons, there are offensive mons that can switch on them. Metagross is a good example, it can switch on so many offensive threats with its great typing and natural bulk, these are some reasons why it's so good. Switching offensive mons on offensive mons requires prediction though, you can't just brainlessly switch them in like you would with Chansey. It really does just require solid team building, like you would when running hyper offense, having each Pokemon complementing each other so you have switches.

Edited by KaynineXL
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3 minutes ago, KaynineXL said:

I'm not saying I want Chansey banned, although I don't like the Chansey meta either.. So I don't think I care about OU at this point. Maybe with Chansey removed I'd like it again, who knows.

 

You don't need 6 walls to beat offensive mons, there are offensive mons that can switch on them. Metagross is a good example, it can switch on so many offensive threats with its great typing and natural bulk, these are some reasons why it's so good. Switching offensive mons on offensive mons requires prediction though, you can't just brainlessly switch them in like you would with Chansey. It really does just require solid team building, like you would when running hyper offense, having each Pokemon complementing each other so you have switches.

Tell them to watch my replays

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5 minutes ago, KaynineXL said:

I'm not saying I want Chansey banned, although I don't like the Chansey meta either.. So I don't think I care about OU at this point. Maybe with Chansey removed I'd like it again, who knows.

 

You don't need 6 walls to beat offensive mons, there are offensive mons that can switch on them. Metagross is a good example, it can switch on so many offensive threats with its great typing and natural bulk, these are some reasons why it's so good. Switching offensive mons on offensive mons requires prediction though, you can't just brainlessly switch them in like you would with Chansey. It really does just require solid team building, like you would when running hyper offense, having each Pokemon complementing each other so you have switches.

I agree metagross has great typing and can switch into some threats

whenever I use alakazam I get either stopped by metagross or chansey

I just think that metagross has hardly ever 31 hp and spdef just because its so expensive

and I cannot think of any other physical or special attacker that can safely switch into an special cb alakazam

also seeing that metagross doesnt have any type of recovery its only way to beat ala is pursuit

and honestly if you switch in alakazam you're a fool if you cant see a metagross come in

again im all for banning chansey, I dont like it and ill never will. But it keeps alakazam in check when nothing else will

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Just now, Bilburt said:

again im all for banning chansey, I dont like it and ill never will. But it keeps alakazam in check when nothing else will

Well, it's not like our current OU meta does not have tools outside of Chansey to shit on Alakazam. Metagross can switch into psychic, signal beam or shadow ball and pursuit kill it when taking abysmal damage. Umbreon can do the same. We also have Houndoom which pretty much poops on Zam. If anything else fails, Zam isn't the fastest poke in the tier and it's squishy as fuck, Arcanine's ESpeed or Aerodactyl's / Jolteon's strong STABs (Aero has pursuit too) can effectively dispose of a sweeping Zam. Not to mention it's suspectible both to status and spikes damage and because of it's awesome physical bulk, it doesn't even find a way to switch into battle usually. I wouldn't be concerned about Zam that much as I would be concerned about centralization around Starmie, weather teams and possibly Jolteon (and maybe Charizard, Typhlosion).

 

I digressed and wrote a tiny bit about how I'd see meta without Chansey but I'll get to the point now ;x

 

I don't wanna be devil's advocate because I find Chansey as a pokemon which absolutely does not promote any skill. You just slap chansey into a slot in your party, give it shed hull or leftovers depending if you expect your opponet to run a trapping mon and there, you effectively wall like 60% of OU metagame. Chansey's presence affects every kind of teambuilding, most of pokemons which are special attackers *have* to avoid using specs- unless trick- just because of Chansey. Jolteon and Saur are literally only truly viable special attackers in tier due to their ability to use Growth. Starmie is much more often ran as a spinner rather than special attacker, bulky, to perform well against Blaziken so I can't count it. The fact that almost all of top usage pokes are physically oriented is solely Chansey's fault.

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22 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Well, it's not like our current OU meta does not have tools outside of Chansey to shit on Alakazam. Metagross can switch into psychic, signal beam or shadow ball and pursuit kill it when taking abysmal damage. Umbreon can do the same. We also have Houndoom which pretty much poops on Zam. If anything else fails, Zam isn't the fastest poke in the tier and it's squishy as fuck, Arcanine's ESpeed or Aerodactyl's / Jolteon's strong STABs (Aero has pursuit too) can effectively dispose of a sweeping Zam. Not to mention it's suspectible both to status and spikes damage and because of it's awesome physical bulk, it doesn't even find a way to switch into battle usually. I wouldn't be concerned about Zam that much as I would be concerned about centralization around Starmie, weather teams and possibly Jolteon (and maybe Charizard, Typhlosion).

 

I digressed and wrote a tiny bit about how I'd see meta without Chansey but I'll get to the point now ;x

 

I don't wanna be devil's advocate because I find Chansey as a pokemon which absolutely does not promote any skill. You just slap chansey into a slot in your party, give it shed hull or leftovers depending if you expect your opponet to run a trapping mon and there, you effectively wall like 60% of OU metagame. Chansey's presence affects every kind of teambuilding, most of pokemons which are special attackers *have* to avoid using specs- unless trick- just because of Chansey. Jolteon and Saur are literally only truly viable special attackers in tier due to their ability to use Growth. Starmie is much more often ran as a spinner rather than special attacker, bulky, to perform well against Blaziken so I can't count it. The fact that almost all of top usage pokes are physically oriented is solely Chansey's fault.

To be fair, not even weather teams will be that much of a problem. With Chansey gone, there should be a rise in Calm Ludicolo's which is renown for shutting down rain teams. Are sunny day teams a thing? Never seen one really apart from the odd random sunny mon in a team.

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Im aware I mainly talked about zam, but this is only because I use it so much that im aware of its power

LO zam can kill houndoom with sigbeam metagross can be weakened if not killed with hp fire 

Psychic should be able to kill aero on the switch in if not weaken it

im not saying alakzam is unbeatable, but with chansey in OU we make sure it stays that way

and if ala isnt a big enough threat you have like forfi said starmie to worry about

non of the pokemon previously mentioned that counter ala can counter starmie

besides maybe umbreon, but seeing as starmie has acces to recover getting pursuited isnt that big of a deal any status is also deflected with natural cure

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Just now, KaynineXL said:

To be fair, not even weather teams will be that much of a problem. With Chansey gone, there should be a rise in Calm Ludicolo's which is renown for shutting down rain teams. Are sunny day teams a thing? Never seen one really apart from the odd random sunny mon in a team.

I belive that sunny day teams consisting of pokes like Exeggutor (!), Charizard and Typhlosion might be on a rise. I can be wrong- I'm only speculating, last time Chansey-less meta was very short and I barely remember what was played in it

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4 hours ago, Bluejim said:

Please avoid building your arguments on assumptions of what the OU metagame would look like without Chansey in it.

Why? This is exactly the key thing that decides should we touch on Chansey or nah. "B-b-b-but Orange you don't keep broken shit to check other broken shit!!" Except, there is nothing inherently broken about Chansey on its own. It's fairly easy to beat or steal momentum from it, possibly easiest of all viable OU Mons. It's just the fact it's everywhere, it's by a mile the best Wish supporter and Cleric. It covers massive amount of ground as only one Pokemon. Yes, these last two sentences make it sound a bit unhealthy but we honestly can't ignore the alternatives. If Chansey was not in the metagame, people would have to opt to use things like Umbreon, Ludicolo or Gardevoir as their blanket special walls. Any of you think that results in anything good? We have people kekking at Umbreon being D rank mon (with slight exaggeration but I can see where they're coming from) and we would really expect these currently B to C rank mons to be able to withstand the massive power that current OU's Life Orb filled metagame has? Anyone slightly familiar with OU metagame will tell this will not work out. And all of this wouldn't be issue if our tiering policy standards weren't so strict about making sure stall/defensive play always remains viable enough. Without Chansey defensive play is not only borderline unviable, but very narrow and one dimensional. Without Chansey people would need to build their defensive cores by building offense first. I mean, this is what I've been doing for god knows how long but I'm highly suspicious the rest of the community will have no problem with this completely new direction of OU teambuilding. Without Chansey there would be people claiming tons and tons of stuff S ranks, stuff like Rain Dance Kingdra because they can't protect themselves reliably even half from the viable offensive threats. Would this game be really ready for any further bans in a limited Generation 3 metagame? I don't think so.

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1 hour ago, OrangeManiac said:

Why? This is exactly the key thing that decides should we touch on Chansey or nah. "B-b-b-but Orange you don't keep broken shit to check other broken shit!!" 

When we think back to the Snorlax meta, a big part of my decision on which side to support was to look past Snorlax and look at what the Chansey meta would be like if Snorlax got banned which is complete shit in my opinion. Now Chansey is the direct problem to this shit meta I think, but removing it would probably just make it worse.

 

Judging what a tier would look like after a ban should have some merit to it. I really think it's silly that TC are forced/want to disregard it.

 

 

EDIT: Elcoolio has educated me, made me see the light and I understand somewhat now. Give this man a promotion.

Edited by KaynineXL
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Ahhh didn't think this discussiom would drop so quickly. Anyway in my opinion chansey isn't uber worthy for walling. There are some special attackers that can beat it. And it can't keep switching in to certain pokemon over again. For example Alakazam or Typhlosion. I think the main issue with chansey is that it can take a hit. Wish up and support either itself or her team. Whether it be with T-Wave, Toxic, Healbell or Wish. The amount of support chansey gives to teams is really good. Its honestly the best cleric ever. I don't really recall what blissey got banned for back in the day. Probably both uber defensive and team support. But I wouldn't call Chansey uber defensive at this point. Seeing as we have gotten Life orb and Specs, making special attackers hit way harder. 

 

But I don't really mind either way. Its basically the same thing over again with the Snorlax thing. You hate it but you can't really do without it. Not saying Chansey needs to be in your team in order for you to win. But many players do need it.

 

tl;dr Chansey gives amazing support to teams but it isnt unbeatable. If anything ban it for team support.

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9 minutes ago, TheChampionMike said:

I don't really recall what blissey got banned for back in the day. Probably both uber defensive and team support.

Blissey got banned the first time alongside with Snorlax for unhealthiness and the reason was that they were miles beyond any other special defensive threat, so the ban was meant to try if the pool of special defensive Pokemon would get more bigger and diverse instead of slapping one of those two or both like everyone did. Blissey was unbanned in the small reset a bit later but quickly got banned alongside with Gengar but this time mostly for the reason that we knew Chansey was already so much in the previous metagame so it would only make sense to ban its upgraded version for start.

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1 hour ago, OrangeManiac said:

Why? This is exactly the key thing that decides should we touch on Chansey or nah.

1 hour ago, KaynineXL said:

Judging what a tier would look like after a ban should have some merit to it. I really think it's silly that TC are forced/want to disregard it.

Chansey is not going to get ban because people think a tier without Chansey would be better and Chansey is also not going to stay in OU because people think a tier without Chansey is better. If Chansey gets banned, it will be following a test period that will tell us if OU is better or not without Chansey. Speculative arguments on what the OU metagame would look like with or without Chansey have little value when deciding if we want a test ban or not. To initiate a test ban, we need to look at the current OU metagame and determine if Chansey is a problem right now. The metagame comparision becomes the key thing after the potential test, not before.

Edited by gbwead
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32 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Chansey is not going to get ban because people think a tier without Chansey would be better and Chansey is also not going to stay in OU because people think a tier without Chansey is better. If Chansey gets banned, it will be following a test period that will tell us if OU is better or not without Chansey. Speculative arguments on what the OU metagame would look like with or without Chansey have little value when deciding if we want a test ban or not. To initiate a test ban, we need to look at the current OU metagame and determine if Chansey is a problem right now. The metagame comparision becomes the key thing after the potential test, not before.

 

@DaftCoolio I called it. I fucking called it.

 

I already talked about this with Coolio in team chat for keks how the sentence "Please avoid building your arguments on assumptions of what the OU metagame would look like without Chansey in it." practically stands for "Nothing is stopping us from test banning Chansey" and "Your counter-arguments have no merit". What is even the point of this thread then? Legitimately the only thing you can counter-argue against here is that Chansey is not unhealthy enough and just going back and forth like "Uhuh, yes it is" and "Nuhuh no it isn't".

 

Suspect tests are already used sparsely in battle simulator environment. But in a game that takes massive amounts of time to even create a team it should be used with even less. You can't do all kinds of tiering experiments just because you cannot be sure whether the new metagame is better, even though the reasoning and arguments are there. It also causes lots of really negative things in the game both from gameplay experience and tiering standpoint. First people need to spend lots and lots of time to possibly remake their team for that respective tier. In addition, you shake up the tiers for lower tiers because now Pokemon could be moving up as people come up with anything to replace their Chansey while selling their Chanseys. If you decide Chansey was not worth a ban, you're basically making a huge unnecessary mess and it takes a while to even return to the old state of the metagame because of how the gameplay of PokeMMO works due to its farm nature. I know the point of tiering is to push the competitive experience to the fullest but you cannot do it against common sense. The point of pre-test ban discussion should be to valuate if the expectation value of this suspect test is positive or not. Which, what this is not if I get replied with "well you cannot be sure/your arguments have no merit because no test has happened".

 

Edited by OrangeManiac
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