OU Viability Thread

[Sashaolin]

10 minutes ago, Bilburt said:

even then you allow chansey to twave your tenta which cripples it

furthermore venusaur can easily win a stall battle with sludgebomb

its bulkyness allows it so take mulitple icebeams and kill tenta itself 

Come on... We speak about Counters, not 1vs1 situations...

Venusaur can't win with Sludge Bomb, the only way to dealt with Tenta is Growth and 2hko with Giga Drain and that will results in a low life Venusaur.

 

Edited January 4, 2017 by Sashaolin
Oh wait, shed hull

[Bilburt]

Sure if you want to counter venu

you can bring tenta it just gets outclassed by starmie on every other point its speed is mediocre and unless you go full spatk it wont damage anything

which is stupid if you want it to spin furthermore it doesnt have any recovery besides rest, so yes you counter venu and ludi. But water isnt the best offensive either way id rather switch in an aero into venu and take a giga and go back onto the offensive than try to stall a venu with a tentacruel

[Mike]

Imo Zangoose for B+ or potentially even A.

 

Ive been using it quite alot lately. It really sweeps mid/end game. Most common set is most likely SD/Return/Quick attack/Fire punch. Covers pretty much everything that it needs to cover. Ive been able to set up an SD quite easily because of my opponent doubling out. Ofc this could be a hard in some situations. Dusclops is a solid counter to this set tho.

 

Spoiler

Just a few calcs, keep in mind this is jolly :P

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Zangoose Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 117-140 (68 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Zangoose Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 175-207 (86.6 - 102.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Zangoose Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 130-153 (66.3 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Zangoose Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 133-157 (77.3 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Zangoose Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 142-168 (70.2 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Ive also been trying out the CB varient and it has been doing pretty good, having a banded stab priority is so nice having. On top of that I run it with facade which is really nice in case it does end up getting statused. Ive been running facade/quick attack/firepunch/thief. Altho I prefer SD for sure. It is in my opinion one of the best, if not the best normal move spammer in OU atm.

[Erayne]

40 minutes ago, TheChampionMike said:

Imo Zangoose for B+ or potentially even A.

 

Ive been using it quite alot lately. It really sweeps mid/end game. Most common set is most likely SD/Return/Quick attack/Fire punch. Covers pretty much everything that it needs to cover. Ive been able to set up an SD quite easily because of my opponent doubling out. Ofc this could be a hard in some situations. Dusclops is a solid counter to this set tho.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Just a few calcs, keep in mind this is jolly :P

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Zangoose Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 117-140 (68 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Zangoose Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 175-207 (86.6 - 102.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Zangoose Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 130-153 (66.3 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Zangoose Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 133-157 (77.3 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Zangoose Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 142-168 (70.2 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Ive also been trying out the CB varient and it has been doing pretty good, having a banded stab priority is so nice having. On top of that I run it with facade which is really nice in case it does end up getting statused. Ive been running facade/quick attack/firepunch/thief. Altho I prefer SD for sure. It is in my opinion one of the best, if not the best normal move spammer in OU atm.

Imo it's B. No good stats, needs a lot of support, cant switch in on almost anything, pretty much half ou outspeeds it, needs a lot of prediction, and even if you predict the switch and sd it usually doesn't ohko. May as well use a bdrum linoone. The usage also shows how bad it is at the moment in ou. Not a C beacause of good priority stab and decent speed sword dancer, but that's it

[pachima]

4 hours ago, Sashaolin said:

Venusaur can't win with Sludge Bomb, the only way to dealt with Tenta is Growth and 2hko with Giga Drain and that will results in a low life Venusaur.

1

Rip earthquake Venusaur.

[LuisPocho]

11 hours ago, KaynineXL said:

 I moved Kingdra up to B+ and I'm also thinking about doing the same with Sceptile, let me hear your thoughts.

 

 I dont think Sceptile is good enough for B+, it must be something like C... coverage is bad, it wont deal high damage doesnt matter what set you are using, and its very weak... It can be a problem if you dont have something that resist grass moves, but normally that would be only in late game at best

[Bilburt]

You know

the only good thing about OU is: its not doubles

@gbwead

[KaynineXL]

56 minutes ago, LuisPocho said:

 

 I dont think Sceptile is good enough for B+, it must be something like C... coverage is bad, it wont deal high damage doesnt matter what set you are using, and its very weak... It can be a problem if you dont have something that resist grass moves, but normally that would be only in late game at best

@DaftCoolio this guy disrespekking your sceptile

[KaynineXL]

6 hours ago, TheChampionMike said:

Imo Zangoose for B+ or potentially even A.

 

Ive been using it quite alot lately. It really sweeps mid/end game. Most common set is most likely SD/Return/Quick attack/Fire punch. Covers pretty much everything that it needs to cover. Ive been able to set up an SD quite easily because of my opponent doubling out. Ofc this could be a hard in some situations. Dusclops is a solid counter to this set tho.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Just a few calcs, keep in mind this is jolly :P

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Zangoose Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 117-140 (68 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Zangoose Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 175-207 (86.6 - 102.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Zangoose Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 130-153 (66.3 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Zangoose Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 133-157 (77.3 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Zangoose Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 142-168 (70.2 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Ive also been trying out the CB varient and it has been doing pretty good, having a banded stab priority is so nice having. On top of that I run it with facade which is really nice in case it does end up getting statused. Ive been running facade/quick attack/firepunch/thief. Altho I prefer SD for sure. It is in my opinion one of the best, if not the best normal move spammer in OU atm.

I could see it B+, I'v used it myself and its super deadly, especially if you don't show it until later on it can usually clean up if it gets +2. I personally don't think it's A though, I think it can sometimes struggle to get +2 on something it can also KO after(because usually even walls can 2hko Zangoose) but I can agree to giving it B+. Changed that now.

[ReaLMayer]

On January 3, 2017 at 3:30 PM, Erayne said:

Chansey secure in tournaments? With trick everywhere, trapinch, growth users and mixed sweepers? Lmao

S rank: does one role extremely well. High reward. Low risk. Very few flaws.

 

A rank: wall a significant portion of of meta game. Have few flaws. 

 

I think chansey is an A. It is over all the best special defense pokemon, but that is all. Even with this, it cannot be sent in freely to defend attacks.

 

Think of using it to defend one attack from haunter. Haunter can perish trap it. You are risking losing your chansey. Think of  wanting to defend from a porygon2 or starmie, they can use trick to greatly handicap it. You send it in against special attack sceptile who endeavors chansey then it dies to a pursuit. You don't have protect and your chansey is getting double teamed by an eruption typhlosion and a choice band pursuit user. Would you consider your defense "very effective" against these meta game  threats?

 

If it's purpose is defense and it cannot defend "extremely well", against the meta game it is not an S.

 

Even if you do successfully defend an attack, chansey does not give you momentum. You could even argue that it costs you momentum and lets the other person have a set up turn. I think this has to be considered along with "risk" of using it. S rank is defined as low risk. Would you consider giving the opponent a low cost turn against your chansey to be low risk?

 

I read some players say the counter argument is in the threat of a twave or a toss from chansey. Really? To me a threat of power is for example a banded eruption typhlosion or a heracross that is swords dancing or a slaking coming at you. To me that is a threat. 

 

If tricks and traps wasn't there or even unpopular id give it S for sure for its defensive ability. In this meta game however there are major holes in chansey's defenses. To me it is somewhere in the A ranks.

 

[KaynineXL]

7 hours ago, ReaLMayer said:

S rank: does one role extremely well. High reward. Low risk. Very few flaws.

 

A rank: wall a significant portion of of meta game. Have few flaws. 

 

I think chansey is an A. It is over all the best special defense pokemon, but that is all. Even with this, it cannot be sent in freely to defend attacks.

 

Think of using it to defend one attack from haunter. Haunter can perish trap it. You are risking losing your chansey. Think of  wanting to defend from a porygon2 or starmie, they can use trick to greatly handicap it. You send it in against special attack sceptile who endeavors chansey then it dies to a pursuit. You don't have protect and your chansey is getting double teamed by an eruption typhlosion and a choice band pursuit user. Would you consider your defense "very effective" against these meta game  threats?

 

If it's purpose is defense and it cannot defend "extremely well", against the meta game it is not an S.

 

Even if you do successfully defend an attack, chansey does not give you momentum. You could even argue that it costs you momentum and lets the other person have a set up turn. I think this has to be considered along with "risk" of using it. S rank is defined as low risk. Would you consider giving the opponent a low cost turn against your chansey to be low risk?

 

I read some players say the counter argument is in the threat of a twave or a toss from chansey. Really? To me a threat of power is for example a banded eruption typhlosion or a heracross that is swords dancing or a slaking coming at you. To me that is a threat. 

 

If tricks and traps wasn't there or even unpopular id give it S for sure for its defensive ability. In this meta game however there are major holes in chansey's defenses. To me it is somewhere in the A ranks.

 

S rank: does one role extremely well. High reward. Low risk. Very few flaws.

A rank: wall a significant portion of of meta game. Have few flaws. 

 

Chansey does one role extremely well though. Like really well. It doesn't just wall a significant portion of the meta game, it walls almost all special attackers and a good bunch of physical attackers(if you play it right). The role we're talking about isn't necessarily being a sp wall, but more being a support, because imo, Chansey does more than just wall a bunch of special attackers. The risk is low, only thing that can get you is Trapinch(and now we've got shed hull) or trick which can shut Chansey down but it's sometimes a little obvious. If someone is leading a Starmie for example, you can probably guess it's got a good chance at being scarf/specs and so you can predict accordingly. This is just one of many examples to give hints of whether a Starmie is trick or not, and it does work with other trick mons.

 

Chansey does give you momentum. For starters, what most would do is simply wish, whatever they switch into, if you've team built correctly you would usually have a good switch which won't take damage because you've got wish and then you proceed to have the momentum. Not only that, Chansey also threatens everything with Toxic, Twave or even Stoss, so it's tricky to switch into and not many can do it(other than Chansey/Pory/Starmie all of which don't give your opponents momentum anyway).

Edited January 6, 2017 by KaynineXL

[OrangeManiac]

52 minutes ago, ReaLMayer said:

S rank: does one role extremely well. High reward. Low risk. Very few flaws.

 

A rank: wall a significant portion of of meta game. Have few flaws. 

 

I think chansey is an A. It is over all the best special defense pokemon, but that is all. Even with this, it cannot be sent in freely to defend attacks.

 

Think of using it to defend one attack from haunter. Haunter can perish trap it. You are risking losing your chansey. Think of  wanting to defend from a porygon2 or starmie, they can use trick to greatly handicap it. You send it in against special attack sceptile who endeavors chansey then it dies to a pursuit. You don't have protect and your chansey is getting double teamed by an eruption typhlosion and a choice band pursuit user. Would you consider your defense "very effective" against these meta game  threats?

 

If it's purpose is defense and it cannot defend "extremely well", against the meta game it is not an S.

 

Even if you do successfully defend an attack, chansey does not give you momentum. You could even argue that it costs you momentum and lets the other person have a set up turn. I think this has to be considered along with "risk" of using it. S rank is defined as low risk. Would you consider giving the opponent a low cost turn against your chansey to be low risk?

 

I read some players say the counter argument is in the threat of a twave or a toss from chansey. Really? To me a threat of power is for example a banded eruption typhlosion or a heracross that is swords dancing or a slaking coming at you. To me that is a threat. 

 

If tricks and traps wasn't there or even unpopular id give it S for sure for its defensive ability. In this meta game however there are major holes in chansey's defenses. To me it is somewhere in the A ranks.

 

No Chansey ever stays against a Haunter because that's just pointless. Therefor the Perish trap argument doesn't work. Sure, it can Perish trap some other Pokemon switching in but the switches on Haunter are Pokemon that basically OHKO Haunter always making it practically impossible to pull off. When you get Tricked on your Chansey, your Chansey does get handicapped yes but it is still very functional. It can still switch on almost every special attacker to counter them and support its teammates with Wish. The Endeavor Sceptile set basically implies that Sceptile Substitutes on the Chansey switch-in to be able to pull the SubEndeavor strategy that the Chansey faints and even if that happens, you're stuck with low HP Sceptile basically making this a trade off to fainted Pokemon against your low HP one. I have no idea what the double teamed argument stands for, I mean I almost understood as it's talking about Doubles encounter? Please correct me if I understood that wrong. We're talking about Chansey in Singles here, though.

 

I can definitely buy the argument that Chansey does not promote lots of momentum, however.  In current OU stall is so viable that the significance of momentum isn't really as important as in general it is and with non team preview metagame you need to scout all your opponent's Pokemons to be able to really enjoy that momentum.

[Robofiend]

ty for taking this over

now who's the OG

[LuisPocho]

so many tentacruels... 

[Erayne]

Pokemmo players have always liked hard counters against anything instead of playing an all-around good team, and that's why our meta is so defensive. Tentacruel is just another proof

[LuisPocho]

38 minutes ago, Erayne said:

Pokemmo players have always liked hard counters against anything instead of playing an all-around good team, and that's why our meta is so defensive. Tentacruel is just another proof

I blame chansey

[KoolT93]

1 hour ago, LuisPocho said:

so many tentacruels... 

Hp ground venu when

[Erayne]

4 minutes ago, KoolT93 said:

Hp ground venu when

Not even a bad idea. HP fire does slightly more than sludge bomb against other venusaurs anyway

[Gunthug]

1 hour ago, KoolT93 said:

Hp ground venu when

Probably better off running eq given tentas weak physical defense