OU Viability Thread

[LifeStyle]

1 minute ago, Bilburt said:

Why would you want to waste a slot on counter?

cuz nerds

[pachima]

1 minute ago, suigin said:

It isn't if you wanna lure nerds into eating Counters.

counter coming from a 250 base hp with low defense pokemon is likely to ohko anything that touches it withor without hp investment.

If by any chance that hit doesnt kill the opponent, you dont need to worry about as well, cause you most likely got scratched by a tackle or something like that.

On another note, hp fire with spike support umbreon can eventually wear out metagross.

I would list it a C. Pursuiting the best spinner we have is nice to have in any team. (also nice for spike supp)

[Bestfriends]

Everyone seems to be a bit upset about my proposal to ban Chansey. Chansey is really good in its field.... 

 

Since Chansey is not much of a threat according to the overall majority of the competitive community, lets just unban Tyranitar (both have specialities, but just in different areas). We have Heracross, Blaziken, Flygon, Metagross, and Machamp to play around with. Chansey has just as much holes as Tyranitar has, but lets just unban Tyranitar because there are plenty of ways to handle a Tyranitar. If Chansey is is not a threat to the meta game, then Tyranitar is not an exception...

[suigin]

2 minutes ago, Bilburt said:

Why would you want to waste a slot on counter?

Have you really never seen Counter on Chansey? It's the cheesiest most aids thing in the game.

[Bilburt]

Just now, suigin said:

Have you really never seen Counter on Chansey? It's the cheesiest most aids thing in the game.

Im not saying I havent

just saying there are better moves you can put on chansey

[pachima]

3 minutes ago, Bestfriends said:

Everyone seems to be a bit upset about my proposal to ban Chansey. Chansey is really good in its field.... 

 

Since Chansey is not much of a threat according to the overall majority of the competitive community, lets just unban Tyranitar (both have specialities, but just in different areas). We have Heracross, Blaziken, Flygon, Metagross, and Machamp to play around with. Chansey has just as much holes as Tyranitar has, but lets just unban Tyranitar because there are plenty of ways to handle a Tyranitar. If Chansey is is not a threat to the meta game, then Tyranitar is not an exception...

 

Ok, then give chansey sand stream and ban chansey. Until then, keep both as they are.

[suigin]

6 minutes ago, Bestfriends said:

Everyone seems to be a bit upset about my proposal to ban Chansey. Chansey is really good in its field.... 

 

Since Chansey is not much of a threat according to the overall majority of the competitive community, lets just unban Tyranitar (both have specialities, but just in different areas). We have Heracross, Blaziken, Flygon, Metagross, and Machamp to play around with. Chansey has just as much holes as Tyranitar has, but lets just unban Tyranitar because there are plenty of ways to handle a Tyranitar. If Chansey is is not a threat to the meta game, then Tyranitar is not an exception...

As much as I'd like that, no. The difference between TTar and Chansey is Chansey is infinitely more passive and not a defining win condition (unless the opposing team's benching it all on its special attackers) while on the other side TTar is way more unpredictable, harder to punish and an incredible win condition.

Heracross cannot switch into TTar's Fire moves much

Blaziken gets creamed by EQ

Flygon while a really popular TTar counter in ADV can be nailed by Ice Punch

Metagross cannot switch into EQ or Fire moves

And Machamp is mediocre.

If you mispredict a chansey the worst thing that can happen is a T-Wave or Toxic on your counter, but you don't know if your counters will actually beat TTar until you send them.

 

Also TTar has many more sets, DD, Band, Scarf, Mixed attacker, single mom, and has way more useable coverage in moves. Chansey's versatility is Counter vs Seismic, Twave vs Toxic, Wish vs Softboiled, Protect vs Heal Bell

Edited January 4, 2017 by suigin
im gay

[pachima]

5 minutes ago, suigin said:

As much as I'd like that, no. The difference between TTar and Chansey is Chansey is infinitely more passive and not a defining win condition (unless the opposing team's benching it all on its special attackers) while on the other side TTar is way more unpredictable, harder to punish and an incredible win condition.

Heracross cannot switch into TTar's Fire moves much

Blaziken gets creamed by EQ

Flygon while a really popular TTar counter in ADV can be nailed by Ice Punch

Metagross cannot switch into EQ or Fire moves

And Machamp is mediocre.

If you mispredict a chansey the worst thing that can happen is a T-Wave or Toxic on your counter, but you don't know if your counters will actually beat TTar until you send them.

 

Also TTar has many more sets, DD, Band, Scarf, Mixed attacker, single mom, and has way more useable coverage in moves. Chansey's versatility is Counter vs Seismic, Twave vs Toxic, Wish vs Softboiled, Protect vs Heal Bell

 

plz dont underestimate hyper voice chansey.

Besides it, everything is on point.

[ShadowGary]

3 minutes ago, suigin said:

As much as I'd like that, no. The difference between TTar and Chansey is Chansey is infinitely more passive and not a defining win condition (unless the opposing team's benching it all on its special attackers) while on the other side TTar is way more unpredictable, harder to punish and an incredible win condition.

Heracross cannot switch into TTar's Fire moves much

Blaziken gets creamed by EQ

Flygon while a really popular TTar counter in ADV can be nailed by Ice Punch

Metagross cannot switch into EQ or Fire moves

And Machamp is mediocre.

If you mispredict a chansey the worst thing that can happen is a T-Wave or Toxic on your counter, but you don't know if your counters will actually beat TTar until you send them.

Well... I think it's just you being bad. If you're an atleast decent Yasuo you can just dash through minion to dodge and poke with Q. Try taking Tyranitars passive Sand Stream with your passive shield. Dodge his Rock Slide with E through minion. If he's far away from turret just E in get some Q stacks then beyblade(E+Q+Flash), and R then proceed your all-in with that lovely ignite :). If you're against Chansey it's just a farm lane tbh. Just keep farming and try to poke with 2nd Q Tornado to get her to use PP on Softboiled. Try to blow as many summs as possible on Chansey and when you know her Counter is on CD, dive her with jungler help and Ignite to get rid of atleast 35% of the healing she gets from softboiled.

 

TL;DR: I don't think any of them have to get banned and you can always outplay them.

 

You can thank me later kids. :)

[suigin]

the hell is this guy saying

[Bestfriends]

Just now, pachima said:

Ok, then give chansey sand stream and ban chansey. Until then, keep both as they are.

 

2 minutes ago, suigin said:

As much as I'd like that, no. The difference between TTar and Chansey is Chansey is infinitely more passive and not a defining win condition (unless the opposing team's benching it all on its special attackers) while on the other side TTar is way more unpredictable, harder to punish and an incredible win condition.

Heracross cannot switch into TTar's Fire moves much

Blaziken gets creamed by EQ

Flygon while a really popular TTar counter in ADV can be nailed by Ice Punch

Metagross cannot switch into EQ or Fire moves

And Machamp is mediocre.

If you mispredict a chansey the worst thing that can happen is a T-Wave or Toxic on your counter, but you don't know if your counters will actually beat TTar until you send them.

Rock, Ground, and Steel types could see an increase in usage. I am saying that both Chansey and Tyranitar are great in their fields. I would like to see both of them away from the meta because chansey walls things like crazy and Tyranitar has sand stream. I want to emphasise this, your not suppose to feel safe. Chansey has that safe feeling to it. Use the bounce trick I mentioned and you can enjoy the joyride of your life... poor starmie.... is that all you can do? You can then use softboil (Max PP for effectiveness) and toxic. Tyranitar has the same feeling to it, carry aerial ace and knock out heracross and enjoy the rest of your battle. Porygon2 would be a good alternative because it is not as devastating as Chansey. There is hope in knocking it out and its the exact same type as Chansey. Porygon2 is in my view, better in the meta. Chansey and Tyranitar do not belong and I feel that Chansey is too specially defensive and Tyranitar is too good in its raw power.

[RysPicz]

Just now, ShadowGary said:

Well... I think it's just you being bad. If you're an atleast decent Yasuo you can just dash through minion to dodge and poke with Q. Try taking Tyranitars passive Sand Stream with your passive shield. Dodge his Rock Slide with E through minion. If he's far away from turret just E in get some Q stacks then beyblade(E+Q+Flash), and R then proceed your all-in with that lovely ignite :). If you're against Chansey it's just a farm lane tbh. Just keep farming and try to poke with 2nd Q Tornado to get her to use PP on Softboiled. Try to blow as many summs as possible on Chansey and when you know her Counter is on CD, dive her with jungler help and Ignite to get rid of atleast 35% of the healing she gets from softboiled.

 

TL;DR: I don't think any of them have to get banned and you can always outplay them.

 

You can thank me later kids. :)

Stop taking drugs man, otherwise you will be like Daryl. Noone wants to be like Daryl

[pachima]

2 minutes ago, Bestfriends said:

Use the bounce trick I mentioned and you can enjoy the joyride of your life... poor starmie.... is that all you can do?

1

If only you knew what starmie could do to plebeians chanseys.

[LuisPocho]

2 hours ago, gbwead said:

What about Calm Weezing tho?

I was thinking about sp.def muk against venu, might be a very good counter... but I dont know what kind of moveset could be usefull in OU

PS: ban chansey

[Rendiz]

41 minutes ago, ShadowGary said:

Well... I think it's just you being bad. If you're an atleast decent Yasuo you can just dash through minion to dodge and poke with Q. Try taking Tyranitars passive Sand Stream with your passive shield. Dodge his Rock Slide with E through minion. If he's far away from turret just E in get some Q stacks then beyblade(E+Q+Flash), and R then proceed your all-in with that lovely ignite :). If you're against Chansey it's just a farm lane tbh. Just keep farming and try to poke with 2nd Q Tornado to get her to use PP on Softboiled. Try to blow as many summs as possible on Chansey and when you know her Counter is on CD, dive her with jungler help and Ignite to get rid of atleast 35% of the healing she gets from softboiled.

 

TL;DR: I don't think any of them have to get banned and you can always outplay them.

 

You can thank me later kids. :)

What if Chanseys jungler counter ganks your dive and ends up giving Chansey the double kill? At that point you lost your Chansey counter and she will snowball out of control and solo carry the team fights.

[Bilburt]

1 minute ago, Rendiz said:

What if Chanseys jungler counter ganks your dive and ends up giving Chansey the double kill? At that point you lost your Chansey counter and she will snowball out of control and solo carry the team fights.

Farm till 40 cuze your team outscales

[notmudkip0]

Tentacruel is probably the best way to handle Venusaur. It resists Sludge Bomb and HP Fire, and discourages use of Leech Seed/Giga Drain thanks to Liquid Ooze. Tenta is also able to threaten Venu with Ice Beam, and can annoy Growth variants with Haze. Tenta also isn't just to beat Venu, it can also provide Rapid Spin support, use Knock Off to ease opposing stall, or sweep late game with SD or its special attacks.

 

tl;dr, Tentacruel is good in current OU.

[Gunthug]

1 hour ago, LuisPocho said:

I was thinking about sp.def muk against venu, might be a very good counter... but I dont know what kind of moveset could be usefull in OU

PS: ban chansey

Muk is a beast. Takes on Chansey too, since it gets 51 HP subs. Something like sub focus punch ice (or fire) punch pain split could certainly have a niche in OU

Edited January 4, 2017 by Gunthug

[aeeaeeaaa]

Porygon2 for A: this thing is as good as most of the A-list if not even better in my opinion, and it also doesn't require much support to fit into a team! Ok maybe you'll need to pair it with a few resists/immunites cause it's not as tanky as Chansey, but if you look at the top of OU lists, you'll see plenty of complementary pokemons which makes Porygon2 a pokemon that is really easy to incorporate into your team!

Another reason I think it's A is its versatility: The spdef classic set is good and can use several different coverage moves, the more offensive SpAtk set can be really annoying to switch into with STAB tri-attack (and its BS status) or icebeam to ruin Venusaur's day, and finally the return set can really threaten Chansey (or you could even trick her). Overall Porygon2 has enough different working sets to make it more fearsome than a lot of A tier pokemon imo

 

Kingdra for B+: Maybe even for A ? I'm not sure, but I'm sure it's more than B material for me. It's a pretty easy to read pokemon (once you've guessed if its DD or rain), but that doesn't really matter imo, as I feel it deserves at least B+ for the DD set alone. One of the best typing in the game capable of switching on any fire/water move, CC absorption via Rest, and only a handful of pokemon able to completely shut it down (Gyara, Milo, Slowbro, Vap... easy teambuild...). Thanks to rest it nearly never ends up losing much when walled -> easy switch in, easy switch-out. I do acknowledge that unlike Porygon, Kingdra requires support to shine so that why I proposed B+ not A

 

Houndoom for B/B+ : Best user of pursuit + excellent double immunity + a whole range of very different sets that can make it a real pain in the ass for the enemy, but also very frail and 95 base speed + easy switch in for enemy Blazikens

Edited January 4, 2017 by aeeaeeaaa

[RysPicz]

23 minutes ago, aeeaeeaaa said:

Porygon2 for A: this thing is as good as most of the A-list if not even better in my opinion, and it also doesn't require much support to fit into a team! Ok maybe you'll need to pair it with a few resists/immunites cause it's not as tanky as Chansey, but if you look at the top of OU lists, you'll see plenty of complementary pokemons which makes Porygon2 a pokemon that is really easy to incorporate into your team!

Another reason I think it's A is its versatility: The spdef classic set is good and can use several different coverage moves, the more offensive SpAtk set can be really annoying to switch into with STAB tri-attack (and its BS status) or icebeam to ruin Venusaur's day, and finally the return set can really threaten Chansey (or you could even trick her). Overall Porygon2 has enough different working sets to make it more fearsome than a lot of A tier pokemon imo

 

Kingdra for B+: Maybe even for A ? I'm not sure, but I'm sure it's more than B material for me. It's a pretty easy to read pokemon (once you've guessed if its DD or rain), but that doesn't really matter imo, as I feel it deserves at least B+ for the DD set alone. One of the best typing in the game capable of switching on any fire/water move, CC absorption via Rest, and only a handful of pokemon able to completely shut it down (Gyara, Milo, Slowbro, Vap... easy teambuild...). Thanks to rest it nearly never ends up losing much when walled -> easy switch in, easy switch-out. I do acknowledge that unlike Porygon, Kingdra requires support to shine so that why I proposed B+ not A

 

Houndoom for B/B+ : Best user of pursuit + excellent double immunity + a whole range of very different sets that can make it a real pain in the ass for the enemy, but also very frail and 95 base speed + easy switch in for enemy Blazikens

Agreed with all of them, I also recently started loving Pory- this thing is just awesome, Trace stops so many prominent threats and enables Pory to use enemy's ability against it, it has good bulk on both sides and is capable of countering Gyarados with it's ability and TBolt, can run mixed sets (Facade ftw) and has overall really great movepool. It's very durable and has that ridiculous STAB hax attack.

 

As for Houndoom I also think B+ suits it nicely although I must disagree with it being an "easy switch in for enemy Blazikens"- this is where one of my favourite moves proves superior. Fire Blast is capable (in practice it does, unless you miss- just don't be unlucky) of 2hkoing the Blaziken as it switches in. It actually happened in one of my many unranked matches not too long ago.

 

Fire Blast ftw

[KaynineXL]

Alright, I do agree with Porygon being A. I am a fan of it personally, but I wanted to see what others thought before I went all biased just because I like it.

 

Houndoom I forgot to add, B/B+ sounds good to me. I'l go B+ for now. I moved Kingdra up to B+ and I'm also thinking about doing the same with Sceptile, let me hear your thoughts.

 

Thoughts on where Crobat and Tentacruel should go? I think B/B+ area looks about right for both.

Edited January 4, 2017 by KaynineXL

[OrangeManiac]

9 hours ago, KaynineXL said:

Don't take that D rank too serious, it was semi-joke. It was in the C section before I decided to put it there for the lols(hence the comment on 1st page) - I'd change it when we sort out more ranks.

 

If we want to be real though, its only niche is to pursuit trap. It's so costly using it though, you can do absolutely nothing to Metagross along with many other threats actually. It's not great at walling a lot of special attackers such as Wish/Growth Jolteon & Venusaur. Actually, now that I read the definitions of each rank, it does sound like D rank.

Yeah that's fair, I don't want to be killer of all fun. However, D rank is kind of an alert of "pls don't use this mon for anything else than hipster points" and I just wanted to point out it honestly isn't that bad because it has at least one really important supportive role it can do.

 

If it did nothing but this then I guess fair enough but it still checks power special offense like Zam, Espeon and Jolteon w/ Specs if anyone is into such weird stuff. And Wish + Heal Bell with that bulk is alright always 

 

About Bilburt's argument that you can set up on Umbreon: You can set up on really any wall in OU if you don't have the counters for said offensive threat. All the OU offensive Pokemon are checkable so just because you can set up on Chansey doesn't make it not S rank, for example.

 

If you want a D ranker, put Kangaskhan there. It has nothing over Chansey on defensive purposes and offensively it doesn't break any walls in OU.

Edited January 4, 2017 by OrangeManiac

[Bilburt]

I feel like people are overestimating tentacruel

yes it walls venusaur/ludi well

but that doesnt mean its at all viable

besides the fact that it gets walled by chansey, it also has much used counters such as alakazam aerodactyl even metagross can kill it and its much if not the most used pokemon

its ability to spin is matched by few others and that might be the only plus punt that tenta has

even then forretress does a better job at walling venusaur or ludi

You can argue about that seeing venu could possibly have hp fire

yea venusaur and ludi are a threat but I dont think you even have to think about tenta to counter them

if anything bringing a venusaur yourself is a solid counter

[Sashaolin]

30 minutes ago, Bilburt said:

I feel like people are overestimating tentacruel

besides the fact that it gets walled by chansey, it also has much used counters such as alakazam aerodactyl even metagross can kill it and its much if not the most used pokemon

Knock off Chansey could be very interesting and the counters you provided are not counters but more like revenge killers, Knock off is very painful for those sweepers and Surf/Sbomb stab are strong enough to dealt with them.

[Bilburt]

22 minutes ago, Sashaolin said:

Knock off Chansey could be very interesting and the counters you provided are not counters but more like revenge killers, Knock off is very painful for those sweepers and Surf/Sbomb stab are strong enough to dealt with them.

Knock off chansey isnt something to be overly worried about unless you got a trapinch waiting

even then you allow chansey to twave your tenta which cripples it

furthermore venusaur can easily win a stall battle with sludgebomb

its bulkyness allows it so take mulitple icebeams and kill tenta itself 

even then id prefer knock off ludi over tenta, its ability to leech and synth while knocking off is amazing

and the counters i named might hurt from switching in but I do know that with alakazams improved spdef it can survive a surf afaik(correct me if im wrong) even umbreon can decently damage tentacruel with pursuit

as I see it forretress is the better spinner and spiker