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OrangeManiac

Generation 7 Status Mechanics

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As we know, our current status mechanics are already from later generations (such as 1-3 turn sleep, paralyze unaffecting electric-types, powder moves unaffecting grass-types etc.), so this brings a question should we update them to Generation 7 mechanics? The changes in status mechanics include paralyze halving the speed instead of making it 1/4x, burn causing 6,25% damage instead of previous 12,5 % and confusion hitting the confused player 1/3 times instead of 1/2.

 

I'll explain why these changes are really good and why they should be implemented to our game. I'm aware this thread exists, but as the topic is so broad talking about all changes made in Generation 7 I thought it would be better to have an actual Suggestion thread for each mechanics on their own because some of them might be less beneficial than others (DD Flygon pls ban).

 

Paralyze halving the speed instead of making it 1/4x makes competitively much more sense because the current situation is that when a Pokemon gets paralyzed it is practically always guaranteed to go last. This made slowest possible Pokemon like Snorlax outspeed Aerodactyl (the fastest Pokemon in the tier) with a paralyze, basically rendering the speed stat you have useless. This made fast offense basically one paralyze away from being useless. When the speed is halved this still keeps the significance of the status but still makes your speed stat have some kind of a factor in this battle instead of being dead weight to your team at this point. Inducing paralyze is so reliably easy so you could argue this if not cheap then at least an easy way to beat opposing Pokemon instead of inflicting actual damage.

 

Confusion makes you hit yourself one in three times in Generation 7 instead of previous 1 out of 2. Getting hit yourself by every second attack made confusion inflicting moves not only very reliable but also a really strong way to defeat opponents based on pure luck. This raised discussions like banning Swagger and/or ConfuseRay for its uncompetitive nature which did get a lot of support. The fact that strong physical attackers could easily knock themselves out with a single confusion hit on themselves especially after Swagger makes confusion plays really high risk high reward but especially low skill based playing, possibly to the extent that hurts the virtues of a competitive play. Confusion hitting you one in every three turns is a really good middle ground: It can buy you precious free turns by using RNG in a RNG based game but it still doesn't promote people putting their destiny in the hands of a coin flip. I feel that Gamefreak finally realized this trait of Confuse Ray by their 7th Generation and changed it and so should we.

 

Burn does less damage after each turn in Generation 7 with 6,25% instead of 12,5%. This is a minor thing but I still find it positive. Because burn halves the attack of an opponent, it is a really powerful status to be inflicted against opposing Pokemon - arguably even most common used status in competitive play (as long as the users were viable). Nerfing this isn't a big deal but it is still a right step to take, if not for anything else than consistency reasons.

 

So yeah, please discuss if Generation 7 status mechanics would improve our gameplay.

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All out yes for all of them. I would also suggest updating some moves mechanics, such as TWave having 90% accuracy, Swagger with 85 and Destiny Bond behaving like Protect/ Detect (might fail if used successfully). All those changes were made to make the game more competitive and more skill rather than luck based and I would really love to see all of them in MMO as soon as possible.

 

E: Boosting Leech Life to 80bp shouldn't have a big impact on the metagame either

Edited by RysPicz

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6 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

E: Boosting Leech Life to 80bp shouldn't have a big impact on the metagame either

Give it to Scizor

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18 minutes ago, LifeStyle said:

Give it to Scizor

The list of pokes able to use this move is pretty short and most of them is already quite unviable (Ninjask, Shedinja, Parasect to name few). Maybe Ninjask would become UU but thats about it I think

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I feel like all these changes would be positive to implement here apart from the decreased burn damage, I'm not sure how many people would have noticed that this was primarily a nerf to scald, the big issue being water types were given a way to beat some pokes that normally they could not beat due to the residual damage. We don't have this issue here so I'm sceptical on if these should all be implemented.

Edited by xXBlu3BreathXx

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2 minutes ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

I feel like all these changes would be positive to implement here apart from the decreased burn damage, I'm not sure how many people would have noticed that this was primarily a nerf to scald, the big issue being water types were given a way to beat some pokes that normally they could not beat due to the residual damage. We don't have this issue here so I'm sceptical on if these should all be implemented.

Even if that was the reason for burn nerf, it wouldn't really make sense to have only part of the status mechanics from later generation.

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2 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

Even if that was the reason for burn nerf, it wouldn't really make sense to have only part of the status mechanics from later generation.

he just explained why it would make sense.

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4 minutes ago, DrButler said:

he just explained why it would make sense.

From the developers standpoint it may not be justified because they almost always implement things of a similar nature at the same time, the only exception I can remember was not including all of the gen 4 items when we got scarf/specs/orb/shed.

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5 minutes ago, DrButler said:

he just explained why it would make sense.

He explained why he feels that the burn nerf was implemented in Generation 7, because Scald was so strong. He demonstrated that burn nerf isn't necessarily needed in our environment and I acknowledged that in my comment you're just quoting to. I just voiced out my point that implementing only part of the mechanics, however doesn't really make sense for consistency reasons.

 

If you're gonna call out someone for bad reading comprehension like that, try to at least understand what the people you're trying to call out are talking about.

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I personally am in support of the Paralysis and Confusion nerfs (in order to meet a middle ground in the Swagger/C Ray legality debate if anything), however I don't agree with the Burn nerf: 

 

Burn chip damage is one of the few viable methods of attenuating health recovery on Pokemon like Venusaur who can't be touched by toxic, put to sleep or affected by Leech Seed. Leech Seed paired with Giga Drain and even Synthesis, in the best of circumstances, makes Venusaur an incredibly difficult Pokemon to deal with and I think halving the only real residual damage available to be done to it would only make it even more powerful than it should be for this metagame.

 

As @AbdOuMarley said, Milotic is also a very good physical wall even with the 12.5% damage per turn. It has enough recovery and speed as it stands to be able to regenerate its HP without being given the benefit of only having its leftovers canceled out, and alongside the Marvel Scale defence boost, I can't see this having a beneficial outcome. Granted there are things like Toxic and Leech Seed which do good work to Milotic, but I still feel that burn damage should be an option. 

Edited by Zymogen

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Confusion is ok, but I dont think para and burn suit in this metagame. As said before, milotic and some poison-immune walls would welcome burn too well.

For para, a 90% accuracy could be fine, but the 1/4 is wrong for me.

Para was 1/4 speed until later gen. What happened is that speed benchmarks are much higher now than the ones in this game (Megas, much more offensive pressure, making scarf much more viable, etc).

Twave is already limiting to use because of the several ground pokemons. The 90% acc could at least atenuate the mindless spam of it to fish for hax, but reducing it to 1/2 would render twave really useless (kecleon, slowking, clefable) all those would still not outspeed most threats even after paralyze.

Just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

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I get what you guys are saying but no one forces you to use that move on Milotic. Maybe it's a move that should be used more carefully than it has been at this point. When Guts users became less viable it became a move again that you could spam all around but it's not necessarily just a bad thing you can't spam WoW like you could before. Or paralyze, at that matter.

 

Edit: I'm not honestly pushing so much for that burn nerf compared to the others to be fair. However, as I kinda guess it's "all or nothing" from developers standpoint I rather vouch for all of them.

Edited by OrangeManiac

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31 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

no one forces you to use that move on Milotic.

This doesn't mean anything - you could say that no one forces you to stay in when you're confused. Sometimes you have to. 

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5 minutes ago, pachima said:

Confusion is ok, but I dont think para and burn suit in this metagame. As said before, milotic and some poison-immune walls would welcome burn too well.

For para, a 90% accuracy could be fine, but the 1/4 is wrong for me.

Para was 1/4 speed until later gen. What happened is that speed benchmarks are much higher now than the ones in this game (Megas, much more offensive pressure, making scarf much more viable, etc).

Twave is already limiting to use because of the several ground pokemons. The 90% acc could at least atenuate the mindless spam of it to fish for hax, but reducing it to 1/2 would render twave really useless (kecleon, slowking, clefable) all those would still not outspeed most threats even after paralyze.

Just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

i kinda agree with para halving the speed it seems reasonable because a para on a fast poke as jolteon or aerodactyl or even a scarf pokes shuts it down and make slower than most of the pokemons if not almost all , but i kinda disagree with accuray 90% cause if it miss ur poke set is scouted and then u can switch to a proper pokemon to deal with

its like we are making para less effective and also giving it less accuracy 

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33 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

no one forces you to use that move on Milotic.

or u can burn milo with a fire move if u switch it to charizard or doom or any physicall attacker with fpunch

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6 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

This doesn't mean anything - you could say that no one forces you to stay in when you're confused. Sometimes you have to. 

Running and using the move Will-o-Wisp is a choice, getting confused isn't really a choice. That's why I don't think this analogy works. I find it alright to be punished for a teambuild decision you made, not for something you can't be in control of. Very limited Pokemon get the move Will-o-Wisp but all of them who get it are running it and often just blindly spam it.

 

4 minutes ago, AbdOuMarley said:

or u can burn milo with a fire move if u switch it to charizard or doom or any physicall attacker with fpunch

Well this I can get behind to. Milotic getting burnt by luck can turn it into an unstoppable walling machine without doing anything wrong. And that would suck.

 

Edited by OrangeManiac

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2 hours ago, pachima said:

 but reducing it to 1/2 would render twave really useless (kecleon, slowking, clefable) all those would still not outspeed most threats even after paralyze.

Just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.


I think that is a good thing, faster walls would become more important.... problem, most of them are already important (like arca and milotic), and not many fast walls use paralyze anyways lol (I can only think about milktank right now)

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i understand that asking for all gen 7 mechanics would be a big deal for the staff, but i feel like these status mechanics are worth adding into the game sooner rather than later. 

casual players will hardly feel any changes, and its a huge bonus to the competitive scene, promoting skill instead of luck.

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The reduction in burn damage really doesn't matter much unless you're trying to stall the opponent. I've never had a problem with confusion, either so those can stay or change, as far as I'm concerned. However, the paralysis is what bothers me. It's primary use is to cripple set up sweepers like Gyarados (or anything with Dragon Dance). It can also be useful for stopping naturally fast sweepers like Aerodactyl or Alakazam, but those can be beaten with a solid wall. However, Dragon Dance Pokemon don't even care about paralysis in Gen 7. After two boosts, they're back to their base speed. Dragon Dance sweepers almost always have a way to get an extra boost or two, as well such as Sub or Taunt. While it's true that both of these moves stop Thunderwave anyways, they can be played around and if you manage to land that paralyze, you have crippled their sweeper and avoided being crushed. They also tend to have decent bulk and so can't usually be 1-shotted by anything tough to take a hit such as a wall.
Paralysis cutting speed to 1/4 is quite often the most reliable way to stop a Dragon Dance Pokemon. If it only halved their speed, Dragon Dance sweepers would have even more offensive pressure than they already do, which would just be bad.

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On 03/01/2017 at 3:24 AM, OrangeManiac said:

 

Paralyze halving the speed instead of making it 1/4x makes competitively much more sense because the current situation is that when a Pokemon gets paralyzed it is practically always guaranteed to go last. This made slowest possible Pokemon like Snorlax outspeed Aerodactyl (the fastest Pokemon in the tier) with a paralyze, basically rendering the speed stat you have useless. This made fast offense basically one paralyze away from being useless. When the speed is halved this still keeps the significance of the status but still makes your speed stat have some kind of a factor in this battle instead of being dead weight to your team at this point. Inducing paralyze is so reliably easy so you could argue this if not cheap then at least an easy way to beat opposing Pokemon instead of inflicting actual damage.

 

Confusion makes you hit yourself one in three times in Generation 7 instead of previous 1 out of 2. Getting hit yourself by every second attack made confusion inflicting moves not only very reliable but also a really strong way to defeat opponents based on pure luck. This raised discussions like banning Swagger and/or ConfuseRay for its uncompetitive nature which did get a lot of support. The fact that strong physical attackers could easily knock themselves out with a single confusion hit on themselves especially after Swagger makes confusion plays really high risk high reward but especially low skill based playing, possibly to the extent that hurts the virtues of a competitive play. Confusion hitting you one in every three turns is a really good middle ground: It can buy you precious free turns by using RNG in a RNG based game but it still doesn't promote people putting their destiny in the hands of a coin flip. I feel that Gamefreak finally realized this trait of Confuse Ray by their 7th Generation and changed it and so should we.

 

Burn does less damage after each turn in Generation 7 with 6,25% instead of 12,5%. This is a minor thing but I still find it positive. Because burn halves the attack of an opponent, it is a really powerful status to be inflicted against opposing Pokemon - arguably even most common used status in competitive play (as long as the users were viable). Nerfing this isn't a big deal but it is still a right step to take, if not for anything else than consistency reasons.

 

So yeah, please discuss if Generation 7 status mechanics would improve our gameplay.

Yes to all of this. I feel that these will help make the game more balanced. Let me go into full detail as to why @OrangeManiac is right on the money...

 

1. Paralyze: I had seen in my commentaries where something like Gyarados has been paralyzed, but with the help of a few DDs, it can out speed a Slowbro. You have to have a Jolt or Starmie or your toast. Make Gyarados' Para +3 DD have 1/2 the speed of a Slowbro Bold and no speed evs. I am a firm believer in punishing pokemon for being paralyzed unless your name is Machamp, Ursaring, or Swellow.

 

2. Confusion: AGH... I hate this... Some newer player battles me, but he has a Tentacruel with wrap and supersonic. I am like, "I have a Jolteon, I should kill this.." Bam! Wrap and Supersonic. When I wanted to do a Tbolt, nope, I got hurt by confusion and he finishes me... Call my situation unusual, but it can happen again. 1/3 gives me a chance to land a hit compared to 1/2...

 

3. Burn: Yes again, burn is not poison. Burn should not mimic poison. With that being said, I agree with the reduction. I am not sure if Orange wants this, but if possible, lets cut the burn damage even further, perhaps 4.10%. Burn should not do a ton of damage.

 

I want to add one more thing....

 

4. Frozen: Axe it. There is no reason to keep it. All it does is makes your opponent immobilised, but we already have "Fully Paraylzed" prompt. If the devs want to keep it, at least increase the defrost chance to at least 85%.

 

 

Spoiler

I am fine with the devs not wanting to implement these features because there is a Tier List Council that can determine what stays and what does not. That's their job.


 

Edited by Bestfriends
Made a sentence sound better

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3 hours ago, Bestfriends said:

Yes to all of this. I feel that these will help make the game more balanced. Let me go into full detail as to why @OrangeManiac is right on the money...

 

1. Paralyze: I had seen in my commentaries where something like Gyarados has been paralyzed, but with the help of a few DDs, it can out speed a Slowbro. You have to have a Jolt or Starmie or your toast. Make Gyarados' Para +3 DD have 1/2 the speed of a Slowbro Bold and no speed evs. I am a firm believer in punishing pokemon for being paralyzed unless your name is Machamp, Ursaring, or Swellow.

 

2. Confusion: AGH... I hate this... Some newer player battles me, but he has a Tentacruel with wrap and supersonic. I am like, "I have a Jolteon, I should kill this.." Bam! Wrap and Supersonic. When I wanted to do a Tbolt, nope, I got hurt by confusion and he finishes me... Call my situation unusual, but it can happen again. 1/3 gives me a chance to land a hit compared to 1/2...

 

3. Burn: Yes again, burn is not poison. Burn should not mimic poison. With that being said, I agree with the reduction. I am not sure if Orange wants this, but if possible, lets cut the burn damage even further, perhaps 4.10%. Burn should not do a ton of damage.

 

I want to add one more thing....

 

4. Frozen: Axe it. There is no reason to keep it. All it does is makes your opponent immobilised, but we already have "Fully Paraylzed" prompt. If the devs want to keep it, at least increase the defrost chance to at least 85%.

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I am fine with the devs not wanting to implement these features because there is a Tier List Council that can determine what stays and what does not. That's their job.


 

I'm not sure I understood the paralyze part of your post, you support the gen 7 paralyze? Because it seems like you are more in favor of the current paralyze which is 1/4 the speed. If Gyarados +1 DD was paralyzed with the 1/2 mechanic wouldn't it still out speed Slowbro? I mean if the dos is jolly max speed wouldn't it out speed? Unless I am so much worse at math than I thought....

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