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OrangeManiac

PvE to PvP balance nonsense

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Alright, as we know the higher staff has decided that there needs to be a balance between PvP to PvE content. This has been voiced out by numerous Game Masters and it's clear the higher staff do not want this to be hidden information at all. As an overall policy, this seems fine. I know numerous of players who dislike a lot playing PvP events, for the fact it makes them feel very uneasy the fact that they're getting all the attention in their battles and are afraid of messing up and so on. In addition when you start out as a comp player, you're gonna lose a lot and that is gonna feel really demoralizing. I find this completely fair and I don't think that PvP should be the only end game activity because many players do not feel comfortable or enjoy playing PvP related events.

 

However.

 

PvP is the only end-game activity in this game right now. I'm starting to sound like a broken record at this point, but I'm rather surprised to see how can the developers not see this. I firmly believe coding PvE related events to a pre-existing Pokemon game is hard. In fact, I can't come up with anything right off the bat that could make this game more PvE related. I simply can't. The biggest problem is that this game is pretended to be something that it is not. The fact the higher staff is pushing towards some kind of a balance towards PvE to PvP is ridiculous. In PvP events the variety is endless. Even though we have been sliding towards having 90% of the tournaments as standard tier officials (which is fine and all), you can at least come up with something to spice up the things in terms of PvP officials with different rules, themes and what not. What comes to PvE this game has had nothing but Catching Events, Hide'n'Seeks and Breeding Events for last 4 years. Now, I don't mind seeing these events - in fact I enjoy participating in these events. But I find it ridiculous that this little of variety needs to be balanced out compared to PvP competitive play which does not only have multiple tiers to choose with but can have endless amounts of gameplays with different rules and so on.

 

What I'm saying that either sit down and discuss what more could be done in terms of PvE events that people will actually see them and say "Yay!" instead of reacting to it as "Oh, just another one of these". If you can come up with something, that's perfect. The problem is I don't think anyone can. The current existing PokeMMO gameplay does not promote any PvE activities. So I'm hoping it's either recognized that PvP is the only end game activity that anyone takes seriously at this game or better so - actually create an update that specifically makes PvE much more interesting. When there is actually PvE content that is enjoyable I can definitely see pushing towards some kind of a balance. With the current PvE relatable content you have, it's nonsense to me.

 

Have a wonderful day.

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I don't understand. Are you telling em to do something about pve (but you don't know what) or to tell those who don't PvP to gtfo? IMO there IS pve content, I don't like it, apparently you don't like it, but I see a lot of people playing even thousands of hours without being a fan of pvp

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Just now, Draekyn said:

lol you should give the OP another read, this time with glasses on

I was just exaggerating a bit :p what I was trying to say is that I don't see the point of the thread. Like saying: "come up with something to make this game better" without telling them what. Seems quite useless complain to me but that's just my opinion

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35 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

PvP is the only end-game activity in this game right now. I'm starting to sound like a broken record at this point, but I'm rather surprised to see how can the developers not see this. I firmly believe coding PvE related events to a pre-existing Pokemon game is hard. In fact, I can't come up with anything right off the bat that could make this game more PvE related. I simply can't. The biggest problem is that this game is pretended to be something that it is not. The fact the higher staff is pushing towards some kind of a balance towards PvE to PvP is ridiculous. In PvP events the variety is endless. Even though we have been sliding towards having 90% of the tournaments as standard tier officials (which is fine and all), you can at least come up with something to spice up the things in terms of PvP officials with different rules, themes and what not. What comes to PvE this game has had nothing but Catching Events, Hide'n'Seeks and Breeding Events for last 4 years. Now, I don't mind seeing these events - in fact I enjoy participating in these events. But I find it ridiculous that this little of variety needs to be balanced out compared to PvP competitive play which does not only have multiple tiers to choose with but can have endless amounts of gameplays with different rules and so on.

 

What I'm saying that either sit down and discuss what more could be done in terms of PvE events that people will actually see them and say "Yay!" instead of reacting to it as "Oh, just another one of these". If you can come up with something, that's perfect. The problem is I don't think anyone can. The current existing PokeMMO gameplay does not promote any PvE activities. So I'm hoping it's either recognized that PvP is the only end game activity that anyone takes seriously at this game or better so - actually create an update that specifically makes PvE much more interesting. When there is actually PvE content that is enjoyable I can definitely see pushing towards some kind of a balance. With the current PvE relatable content you have, it's nonsense to me.

I understand what you are coming from, but some "shitty" PvE official here and there is better than no PvE official. It suprised me how many non competitive players there are in this game and really enjoy these catching events etc. Also keep in mind Pokemon is still supposed to be a kids game, and I am sure there are kids playing this game. Who maybe aren't the best at competitive battling. I personally never join these PvE officials since I find them a waste of time because I never get lucky with 'em. But I can see why people enjoy them. And I think getting rid of those PvE events would only harm this game more than to help it. Officials are still made by staff members, we are getting to the holiday season so I am sure alot of staff members are busy with that and whatnot. 

 

In this balance of PvE and PvP, PvP is already favoured. Because even they, yes they know, aknowledge that PvP is pretty much the only end game content next to grinding your ass off as of this moment. Maybe besides something like the Battle Frontier which some people like and elite 4. 

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7 minutes ago, Erayne said:

I was just exaggerating a bit :p what I was trying to say is that I don't see the point of the thread. Like saying: "come up with something to make this game better" without telling them what. Seems quite useless complain to me but that's just my opinion

I recommend to give the OP one more read. That's not even close what I said. I said that as long there is no actual interesting and diverse PvE content there's no point of enforcing that just for the sake of some sort of a "balance". When they do have actual PvE content, that's a different case.

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So the whole thread was just to make them admit it's not a balanced game?

 

Edit: btw, if you feel pve content is bad it doesn't mean it is for everybody, it's just your opinion. As I said, a lot of people play this game without playing pvp

Edited by Erayne

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16 minutes ago, Erayne said:

So the whole thread was just to make them admit it's not a balanced game?

 

Edit: btw, if you feel pve content is bad it doesn't mean it is for everybody, it's just your opinion. As I said, a lot of people play this game without playing pvp

If you're gonna present my point to argue against it, please present it as a whole. Don't just take part of my argument, act like it was the whole argument and shoot that down. This is what you have been doing with every single comment so far and it's getting really irritating.

 

Also, I did acknowledge the fact there are lots of players who don't play PvP. I emphasized it by putting it in the very first paragraph.

 

41 minutes ago, TheChampionMike said:

I understand what you are coming from, but some "shitty" PvE official here and there is better than no PvE official. It suprised me how many non competitive players there are in this game and really enjoy these catching events etc. Also keep in mind Pokemon is still supposed to be a kids game, and I am sure there are kids playing this game. Who maybe aren't the best at competitive battling. I personally never join these PvE officials since I find them a waste of time because I never get lucky with 'em. But I can see why people enjoy them. And I think getting rid of those PvE events would only harm this game more than to help it. Officials are still made by staff members, we are getting to the holiday season so I am sure alot of staff members are busy with that and whatnot. 

 

In this balance of PvE and PvP, PvP is already favoured. Because even they, yes they know, aknowledge that PvP is pretty much the only end game content next to grinding your ass off as of this moment. Maybe besides something like the Battle Frontier which some people like and elite 4. 

 

I have no issue with some PvE event here and there with the current PvE selection what we have. I in fact enjoy participating in those. But seeing the events from last 2 months it almost feels like the balance is pursued to be something according the lines of 1 to 1 if we don't take community combats into consideration and as Munya pointed out they're not taken consideration in the PvP to PvE balance ratio. That's the reason I actually find this a bit less of an issue so I really hope those CCs will stay because without them this balance seems even more unnecessary. The whole 1 to 1 to me feels like balance just for the sake of balance. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

If you're gonna present my point to argue against it, please present it as a whole. Don't just take part of my argument, act like it was the whole argument and shoot that down. This is what you have been doing with every single comment so far and it's getting really irritating.

 

Also, I did acknowledge the fact there are lots of players who don't play PvP. I emphasized it by putting it in the very first paragraph.

 

 

I'm sorry that i irritated you XD it definitely wasn't my intention since i've got nothing against you personally (actually it's the opposite).

 

What i'm trying to say is that I don't understand (not sayin it's your fault) what the point of the thread is. 

About the huge amount of players playing pve in this game, do you think they would if the content wasn't enough? Of course it can be better but i wouldn't say it's unbalanced vs pvp since the only pvp activity are the events, the rest of the time pvp players can't do much other than ou matchmaking, while good pve content is accessible all the time.

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4 minutes ago, Erayne said:

I'm sorry that i irritated you XD it definitely wasn't my intention since i've got nothing against you personally (actually it's the opposite).

 

What i'm trying to say is that I don't understand (not sayin it's your fault) what the point of the thread is. 

About the huge amount of players playing pve in this game, do you think they would if the content wasn't enough? Of course it can be better but i wouldn't say it's unbalanced vs pvp since the only pvp activity are the events, the rest of the time pvp players can't do much other than ou matchmaking, while good pve content is accessible all the time.

I respect that and I'm all for discussion. That's why I make a thread like this. Otherwise I could just PM staff if I wanted to tell them something. If you wanna disagree with me about something, that's perfectly fine. But when doing so I expect my point to be presented to the public correctly. Otherwise it just looks like an back-and-forth argument where I just point out "this is not what I said", which takes the focus away from the discussion.

 

Yeah, I really don't think PvE content is enough. And when it's not enough it shouldn't tried to be balanced with PvP content because we have lots of that. The hype of the PvE is non existent when it's like the 54th Hide'n'Seek or another catching contest, this time about maybe a different Pokemon because Magikarp got boring. It almost feels to me as the staff members almost apologize posting those events and point out "we need to do this to get PvP events". This is not how it should be. No events should be forced just for the sake of "well we have to"... If I were to run a game, I'd like to see what people who actually play the game think about the experience and I'm giving them my input. Now, it's up to them to do whatever they want with this feedback but at least I can say that I did my share.

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I don't think Erayne is aware of the ratio in the first place. It's not "super common" knowledge.

The point of the thread to me is to say that this ratio is ass.

Tldr, @Erayne, official Pvp events don't get approved for posting by higher staff unless there are sufficient Pve events also planned for posting. meaning as a staff, you can't put 10 tournaments out in a week, unless you make 5 hide and seeks. ( I think nowadays the ratio is not 1 to 1, but 2 to 1.)

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To address your points, the balance is to ensure that we do not overload on Tournaments and neglect the casual players. For many of them the Non-Tournament events that we have are the only interesting content for the game. While it always boils down to certain types of contests, there are only a finite number of things we can do with PvE mechanics. To date all PvE events have required a lot of manual intervention on the part of the staff and we do not know if there will ever be any automated PvE events in the future. Furthermore, PvE is a misnomer because forum based events also fall under the PvE category as well. These are non-tournament PvP events.

 

The big issue you seem to be bringing up is that PvP is getting neglected in favor of PvE, which is completely untrue. PvP still gets the majority of attention because it is the bread and butter for a lot of players. However, just browsing through the Hall of Fame for 2015, there were months when we practically neglected the casual players. That is exactly why the ratio was created. To prevent us from doing just that, and while there were also points in the past where there were no tournaments in a month those months had only a few events. Looking at the months prior to the ratio, the number of PvE based events fluctuated very wildly, with some months have maybe 1-2 at most.

 

Also bear in mind that saying that the current mechanics do not promote PvE play is false. You still need to capture and breed if you want to start comp. If you don't put the work into producing your own, you still have to grind money in order to purchase pre-built comps from other players. Put simply, you can't even venture into PvP territory without engaging in PvE at all. PvP heavily depends upon PvE mechanics. That being said, we can encourage players to care a tiny bit about IVs and nature by hosting events that depend upon those factors in game. What they do with that knowledge is up to them, but we cannot and will not force them to care about tournaments if they do not care for them in the first place.

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I feel like everybody is too concerned about events, while what we lack is everyday game content, both in pvp and pve. People who want pvp should just get more chances to pvp. Promoting uu and nu matchmaking would be a great idea for example. Same for pve: people need something to do at endgame, and some events now and then wont make the game less boring if not for those few hours. For example a good idea would be promoting the completion of the pokedex: capturing pokes is one of the keys of every pokemon game. If you promise something special to those who complete it people would definitely do it and it would even be fun. That would also make new players play longer and find something that convinces them to keep playing the game.

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48 minutes ago, XelaKebert said:

The big issue you seem to be bringing up is that PvP is getting neglected in favor of PvE (...) just browsing through the Hall of Fame for 2015, there were months when we practically neglected the casual players. That is exactly why the ratio was created.

I remember. And after we tried it out and all came to the conclusion that the ratio needs to go, during a staff meeting, the "minimum threshold" was suggested. "we should just do at least 2 pvp and 2 pve every week".

This way, even if we have 15 tourneys a week, you can't say PvE gets neglected, as it got two events that week--every week.

 

Now the thing is, this 'threshold' was suggested as an alternative to the ratio.

Higher up implemented it as an addition. not good.

 

The whole "proportionality" aspect needs to be sacked.

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4 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

 

PvP is the only end-game activity in this game right now. I'm starting to sound like a broken record at this point, but I'm rather surprised to see how can the developers not see this. I firmly believe coding PvE related events to a pre-existing Pokemon game is hard. In fact, I can't come up with anything right off the bat that could make this game more PvE related. I simply can't. The biggest problem is that this game is pretended to be something that it is not. The fact the higher staff is pushing towards some kind of a balance towards PvE to PvP is ridiculous. In PvP events the variety is endless. Even though we have been sliding towards having 90% of the tournaments as standard tier officials (which is fine and all), you can at least come up with something to spice up the things in terms of PvP officials with different rules, themes and what not. What comes to PvE this game has had nothing but Catching Events, Hide'n'Seeks and Breeding Events for last 4 years. Now, I don't mind seeing these events - in fact I enjoy participating in these events. But I find it ridiculous that this little of variety needs to be balanced out compared to PvP competitive play which does not only have multiple tiers to choose with but can have endless amounts of gameplays with different rules and so on.

 

Good morning Orange, we haven't communicated for a while. I would like to address your claim by saying that PvP is not the only activity out there. There are two more activities (and I fit into one of them), shiny trading and YouTube. I was consulting with an avid shiny trader @Pluis2025 and there is a lot of skill in being a shiny trader. There is even a tiering system that I hardly know about. I do not want to bore you with my findings on the matter, but its extremely involved. As for YouTube, I can speak from experience, you can connect to your fan base a lot easier. Making content is fun if you find an "open market" in game. For example, I noticed that PokeMMO was lacking in journalism, so I came and took that market. An anonymous staff member told me that they are "too busy" to answer a lot of questions, so I jumped into the teaching market (I need to publish more videos there....). There was one more market I jumped in, that was the walkthrough market because I saw a lot of people doing it.

 

There is one more activity that I decided to mention in its own paragraph and that would be just messing around in a popular city or as I call it Verming. You can Verm all day and all night with your friends and not have a care in the world as to what is going on (I cannot do that because I am a busybody in game, on forums, and on TS). I rarely hang out in Verm unless someone like @Squirtle makes a rare appearance there, if someone wants to meet me there for trading reasons, or if a good friend of mine needs me there.

 

In conclusion, there are multiple avenues people can venture.

 

- I hope you have a wonderful day too Orange, we should chat more often.

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@OrangeManiac we appreciate your opinions on the matters of Official Staff run events. You are correct in the fact that there are ratios setup to maintain a somewhat balance of PVP to PVE events that are hosted by staff but it is not currently 1 to 1. We have also recently launched the Community Combat series which do not count toward this ratio as you have guessed. This series appears to be doing well and will continue into the future with possible minor changes.

 

Reading through your message I am having a hard time figuring out exactly what you are wanting though. Simply bashing on the lack of variety on PVE events just shows me you don't enjoy those events as much as others do. Comments towards lack of unique PVP events that are not related to specific Tiers is a valid complaint as we have not done much in that realm lately. But I also do not want to continue to increase the amount of PVP events that do occur due to the amount of value being added to the economy for every event. That last point is not up for discussion.

 

It might even be that you are just frustrated with the lack of end game PVE content which I would tell you to go back to the last Announcement Kyu made and tell you to continue to be patient.

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36 minutes ago, Squirtle said:

It might even be that you are just frustrated with the lack of end game PVE content which I would tell you to go back to the last Announcement Kyu made and tell you to continue to be patient.

I'm sick of waiting to be 100% honest with you, and I can guarantee that many other players feel the same way.

It takes way too long for new events and features to be created in this game, and I think this is mainly because we only have like 1 or 2 people working on them. How long has Kyu been working on dungeons anyways? He said that the idea was introduced and tossed around for 3 years, which is ridiculous. If there was more of a Dev team as opposed to just 1 person in charge of satisfying hundreds of players, then I think that would be more efficient. 

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57 minutes ago, Squirtle said:

@OrangeManiac we appreciate your opinions on the matters of Official Staff run events. You are correct in the fact that there are ratios setup to maintain a somewhat balance of PVP to PVE events that are hosted by staff but it is not currently 1 to 1. We have also recently launched the Community Combat series which do not count toward this ratio as you have guessed. This series appears to be doing well and will continue into the future with possible minor changes.

 

Reading through your message I am having a hard time figuring out exactly what you are wanting though. Simply bashing on the lack of variety on PVE events just shows me you don't enjoy those events as much as others do. Comments towards lack of unique PVP events that are not related to specific Tiers is a valid complaint as we have not done much in that realm lately. But I also do not want to continue to increase the amount of PVP events that do occur due to the amount of value being added to the economy for every event. That last point is not up for discussion.

 

It might even be that you are just frustrated with the lack of end game PVE content which I would tell you to go back to the last Announcement Kyu made and tell you to continue to be patient.

 

Alright, I'll explain myself a bit differently and more thoroughly.

 

This has been the only game that I've been around more than 2 months and I've been playing this game pretty much without hiatus for years now. What I'm arguing isn't so much because of "what I personally want" more than what I actually consider making sense in terms of this game. Why I'm pointing this out is that everyone knows me in this game as a comp player and I want to point out I'm not doing this so much for myself but what I consider the best for the game. If anyone disagrees that's fine.

 

The core of my argument is that the number of official tournaments is lacking. While as ladder does give additional content for PvP players, having on average two to three officials every week is fairly small especially in the automated environment we're in now. The officials roughly take under 5% of the time spent on your server and that is assuming you actually make deep in the tournaments. This on its own is very little considering the very reason anyone wants comps is to battle with them. Multiple players have questioned why is this there no more official tournaments where GMs have responded that there needs to be enough PvE events to balance PvP. So instead of just spamming Event feedback thread with "give us more official tournaments!!!" I decided to attack the thing that technically "limits" the amount of officials and why I don't think it is a good idea.

 

I wanted to point out I have no direct dislike towards PvE events and that I find it perfectly reasonable if someone prefers them over PvP. What my issue with them is that the variety of PvE events are small and simply put - they are very boring. If your PvE content was actually more interesting and people actually waited them with excitment I would definitely see why you would want to have some kind of a ratio for PvE to PvP. At the current state of PokeMMO the PvE however is not interesting. You don't hear anyone asking when is the next catching contest or Hide and Seek. I feel as in you're wanting to preserve PvE content while there isn't much yet much anything to preserve. The fact we know now there needs to be this balance causes lot of dissapointment among many players because we feel as in you're doing this balancing for the wrong reasons. That's what I'm wanting to point out: The balance that is forced by the adminstrations is harmful to this game at this point of your game's progress. A vast majority of the people making your game a community lives off from competitive play, not by the PvE events. 

 

If there is enough PvP content, what I'm writing about is a non-issue. Not a single person feels negatively towards PvE events. However, as we know there is this balance higher staff is pushing is making these events even less enjoyable in the eyes of a big portion of your community. I am really glad Munya is pushing for Community Combats which gives PvP players something more to do, even though they aren't exactly treated as officials.

 

If you're afraid of economical issues in this game, that is fine. The current prize money for high placements is really low in terms of used effort for a full comp team. Still your 128 man OUs and UUs fill up constantly, which evidents people don't play it for profit more than excitment. And keeping the community in your game that is excited about your game is very important.

 

Edit: I'm really happy to hear forum events count towards PvE to PvP ratio. That is at least some variety that I'm basically asking for.

 

Edited by OrangeManiac

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1 hour ago, Squirtle said:

But I also do not want to continue to increase the amount of PVP events that do occur due to the amount of value being added to the economy for every event. That last point is not up for discussion.

Going back to the "minimum threshold" mechanic, why don't you just add a "maximum" if you're concerned about the economy? Like, for example, "between 5 and 10 tourneys a week".

Same would go for PvE.

The only reason OP is complaining, is because sometimes we get a week with like, 4 tourneys (which isn't enough), and more can't be added because there are only 2 PvE events. And making 5 hide and seeks is pointless because it's always the same shit.

Honeslty, people just want PvE and PvP to be completely dissociated.

 

If you feel like we have too many PvP, you can always veto the posting of that tourney. But it shouldn't rely on high numbers of PvE events. 

As long as we have 2 or 3 PvE a week, it isn't getting neglected.

 

Please just separate PvP and PvE events from each other. One is just restricting the other, rather than one helping the other grow. The two types need a different min/max.

Edited by Eggplant

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Thanks for clarifying @OrangeManiac as I understand now that it is the same gripe you have had in the past that you believe we host too few PVP events. Let's go look through a little history of the past month to see what numbers we are talking about.

 

Week of October 31st - 4 PVP , 2 PVE , 3 Community PVP

Week of November 7th - 4 PVP , 3 PVE , 3 Community PVP

Week of November 14th - 4 PVP , 2 PVE , 3 Community PVP

Week of November 21st - 3 PVP , 1 PVE , 3 Community PVP

Week of November 28th - 5 PVP , 3 PVE , 3 Community PVP

 

If this is what you call too few PVP events per week you are going to continue to be dissapointed as I will not allow it to get much higher in amount than this per my point in my previous reply.

 

@Eggehard - I will not disassociate PVP and PVE events.

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1 hour ago, FuzzyRegirock said:

I'm sick of waiting to be 100% honest with you, and I can guarantee that many other players feel the same way.

It takes way too long for new events and features to be created in this game, and I think this is mainly because we only have like 1 or 2 people working on them. How long has Kyu been working on dungeons anyways? He said that the idea was introduced and tossed around for 3 years, which is ridiculous. If there was more of a Dev team as opposed to just 1 person in charge of satisfying hundreds of players, then I think that would be more efficient. 

I am sorry @FuzzyRegirock but that is something you can do nothing about and something we will not change the pace or progression for which we will develop.

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