[NU Discussion] Victreebel

[pachima]

2 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I agree that Victreebel is not an unstoppable wallbreaker/sweeper, but the teambuilding and prediction difficulty required to prevent Victreebel from wallbreaking/sweeping is at a such high level that I wonder if Victreebel could be seen as overwhelmingly centralising and therefore unhealthy.

 

 

I personally am not that concerned about victreebel while teambuilding but if that´s the case, then yeah, we would need some more opinions.

Edit: ez page king

Edited January 1, 2017 by pachima

[KaynineXL]

3 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I agree that Victreebel is not an unstoppable wallbreaker/sweeper, but the teambuilding and prediction difficulty required to prevent Victreebel from wallbreaking/sweeping is at a such high level that I wonder if Victreebel could be seen as overwhelmingly centralising and therefore unhealthy.

Nah I think Poliwrath is more centralizing, that's why Victree is also somewhat centralizing as a knock on effect.

[gbwead]

Just now, KaynineXL said:

Nah I think Poliwrath is more centralizing, that's why Victree is also somewhat centralizing as a knock on effect.

Poliwrath is quite strong, but why do you see it as more centralising? Are you talking about the 10 atk boost or just in general? The psysical wall poli to me is just bait for so many threaths while the offensive poli is way easier to stop than Victreebel. 

[KaynineXL]

1 minute ago, gbwead said:

Poliwrath is quite strong, but why do you see it as more centralising? Are you talking about the 10 atk boost or just in general? The psysical wall poli to me is just bait for so many threaths while the offensive poli is way easier to stop than Victreebel. 

No, what I'm saying is the meta is more centralized around Poli(just look at usage stats), and thats a big reason why Victree is so popular. So my point being is that I don't think it's overwhelmingly centralizing. I didn't mean that Poli was more useful or more threatening than Victree(which could be argued), I just think the meta revolves around Poli more and there is evidence just by looking at the NU usage so I don't really see how Victree can be seen as unhealthy in regards to centralization while we have mons such as Poli.

[gbwead]

11 minutes ago, KaynineXL said:

No, what I'm saying is the meta is more centralized around Poli(just look at usage stats), and thats a big reason why Victree is so popular. So my point being is that I don't think it's overwhelmingly centralizing. I didn't mean that Poli was more useful or more threatening than Victree(which could be argued), I just think the meta revolves around Poli more and there is evidence just by looking at the NU usage so I don't really see how Victree can be seen as unhealthy in regards to centralization while we have mons such as Poli.

It is also possible to explain Poliwrath's high usage by the fact that Poliwrath is an answer to multiple centralising pokemons like Kingler, Sharpedo, Golem, several others and Poliwrath itself. Poliwrath is to some degree centralising and therefore to some degree problematic, but considering it prevents so many things from become broken I see it more as part of the solution than the problem. That's just me tho, but I get what you mean and I hope the atk stat boost won't make things worst.

 

Edit: Poliwrath is somewhat bait for Victreebel, but the same thing could be said about Bellosom and Hitmontop that would replace Poliwrath as physical walls in its absence.

Edited January 1, 2017 by gbwead

[KaynineXL]

2 minutes ago, gbwead said:

It is also possible to explain Poliwrath's high usage by the fact that Poliwrath is an answer to multiple centralising pokemons like Kingler, Sharpedo, Golem, several others and Poliwrath itself. Poliwrath is to some degree centralising and therefore to some degree problematic, but considering it prevents so many things from become broken I see it more as part of the solution than the problem. That's just me tho, but I get what you mean and I hope the atk stat boost won't make things worst.

Oh no, I agree with you there, Poliwrath isn't too much of a problem, its typing is just amazing for stopping so many threats imo. Like, so many of our physical walls can't handle a lot of the Pokemon you said such as Sharpedo, Kingler, Flareon which is why I think a lot of people like to use 1-2 phyical wall(s) along with a bulky adamant Poli to make a fairly nice balanced core.

 

I need to go now so I can't write more(I did want to lol).

[pachima]

8 minutes ago, gbwead said:

It is also possible to explain Poliwrath's high usage by the fact that Poliwrath is an answer to multiple centralising pokemons like Kingler, Sharpedo, Golem, several others and Poliwrath itself. Poliwrath is to some degree centralising and therefore to some degree problematic, but considering it prevents so many things from become broken I see it more as part of the solution than the problem. That's just me tho, but I get what you mean and I hope the atk stat boost won't make things worst.

 

Edit: Poliwrath is somewhat bait for Victreebel, but the same thing could be said about Bellosom and Hitmontop that would replace Poliwrath as physical walls in its absence.

 

Thats why you run ice punch.

On another note, I also think poli´s overcentralization is far more evident than bell´s, but as you stated, its a needed one if we dont want to get an unbalanced tier,

[Erayne]

Poli is the less cancerous centralizing pokemon ever, imo one of the reasons nu is so enjoyable. And I'm not saying that cuz it's my favourite pokemon xD

[OrangeManiac]

Dang I'm late for the convo. I don't think neither Victreebel or Poliwrath are exactly centralizing by nature. Poliwrath's usage in my opiniol comes from its typing, ability and for the simple fact the tier lacks solid defensive pivots. When you add offensive sets like physical and special set and belly drum set into the mix you suddenly have a Pokemon with over 40% usage without being in any way actually insanely good at anything. I think Victreebel is as a Pokemon much stronger but has nothing inherently centralizing about it. The problem is that you can't even centralize around a Pokemon which you don't know what the heck it is because its main sets are handled with completely different Pokemon. If I have a problem with anything about Vic it's the fact it results in too easy and prediction-free sweeps instead of being actually too reliable to sweep. Since this thread I started to run Vic and I must say it feels in some ways a bit... cheap way to win when it works. However, in a offensive based meta we are in now I would hate to start dismantling the tier by removing Victreebel because in no ways it is the problem of NU currently imo. NU tier in general has massive decisions to be made. (Until UU's usage fucks everything up)

[Laz]

Can we have Pikachu discussion thread please.

[DiDi]

13 minutes ago, Lazaro23 said:

Can we have Pikachu discussion thread please.

this

[Maelstrom]

Pikachu is NU? I thought it was still UU...

[Gunthug]

29 minutes ago, Maelstrom said:

Pikachu is NU? I thought it was still UU...

Just came down a couple days ago, keep track of those monthly usage updates 

[RysPicz]

13 hours ago, Lazaro23 said:

Can we have Pikachu discussion thread please.

You know how it looks like... We will have one NU tournament, Pika will rape sweep and wallbreak, then we will riot and the thread (or maybe even quickban) will appear.

Most honestly I think that it can be tested regardless, the meta changes, maybe we are wrong and Pika will be manage-able.

And even if we are wrong, I can't think that it will not become UU again soon- along with Aggron, for which's usage I am quite surprised because it stops the outrage of mixed swellows and cradilys.

[Maelstrom]

 lol, ninetales droped too

 

it just happened because I am not playing, kek

 

[DoubleJ]

Requesting to close this thread. While Vic is versatile and a potent sweeper, I feel nu has adjusted to this beast and players have found defensive answers. 

[DarylDixon]

just one question rate of ppl using the fking cancer keckleon in uu? what is?

[LuisPocho]

4 hours ago, DarylDixon said:

just one question rate of ppl using the fking cancer keckleon in uu? what is?

we surely will get the new usages soon I think

[DiDi]

kecleon cancer unstoppable can beat kadabra cancer ability ban xddddd

[RysPicz]

After playing in recent NU tournaments, where I reached finals (won), semis and finals again (lost) I belive we should re-consider this thread. And give a lot of credit to Raichu and Pikachu. I was literally sweeping entire teams with Raichu and Vic without much of an effort. Let me focus on Victreebel.

 

I belive Victreebel has one stupidly broken set which is growth with hp ground. It punishes Muk, Metang and Mawile while at the same time being able to hit ridiculously hard with STAB orb +1 Sludge. With HP ground Vic is capable of playing around Kecleon's ability should it be weakened and switches on sludge bomb and covers stuff it otherwise wouldn't be able to hit, either OHKOing it or 2hkoing. The reason why I started to see less Victreebels is because of how fast has the tier become- the biggest threats include Scyther, Electadrug, Erectrode, Pika and Raichu, Kadabra and Fearow, all of which outspeed and are able to deal huge damage to it if not KO.

 

Its stupidly strong and does not have a single safe switch in NU but right now the Pika- Raichu discussion should raise imo as their offensive presence overshadow Vic's on a large scale. If you wanna see what do I mean, look what my Raichu Jimmy Powka was doing to my opponets in the last 3 NU tournaments.