The blatant ignoring of doubles as a legitimate tier

[OrangeManiac]

4 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I think I am not the only one that doesn't like Doubles, but I don't mind if some people do like that "tier". What bothers me is the initiative of this thread. By pushing directly for more Doubles tournament, this thread is also pushing for the subtle dismissal of OU, UU and NU. I am pretty sure most of our player base don't want Doubles tournaments taking the time slot of OU, UU or NU tournaments.

That's fair, I guess. I just don't get what is holding back from hosting automated officials. It's mostly taking away time from only one staff member at a time now. If they are so scared that money prizes inflate the market, well, consider if all the players did money run instead of playing official that how much money would be given out compared to that 2-3 mil prize pool of yen. Not every official need even a damn shiny as long as the pace of officials is enough. People seemed to hate breeder bundles back in the day but it was with about 1-2 officials a week pace.

[gbwead]

5 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

That's fair, I guess. I just don't get what is holding back from hosting automated officials. It's mostly taking away time from only one staff member at a time now. If they are so scared that money prizes inflate the market, well, consider if all the players did money run instead of playing official that how much money would be given out compared to that 2-3 mil prize pool of yen. Not every official need even a damn shiny as long as the pace of officials is enough. People seemed to hate breeder bundles back in the day but it was with about 1-2 officials a week pace.

Official tournaments still need to be rare to some extent. If we have an official tournament every day, winning one would no longer mean anything. I really hope they include Doubles (32 players) and LC (16 players) in the community combat rotation at some point since that would not disrupt anything.

Edited November 4, 2016 by gbwead

[xXBlu3BreathXx]

52 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I meant that a lot of players are just not using Doubles comps. I see OU teams in Doubles which is a pretty good indicator of how little people are willing to invest themselves in Doubles.

So this is either an issue of commitment or awareness, I think that increasing the amount of doubles tournaments should patch up either one. If anything it shows those players want to partake in the event but simply don't grind the comps because they know they will get little use.

Quote

 

When people are asking for equal representation between the "legitimate tiers" of PokeMMO, they are also asking for a huge influx of singles players to switch to Doubles. Every time we get an OU tournament, we don't get an UU, NU, LC or Doubles tournament and every time we get a Doubles tournament, we don't get an OU, UU, NU or LC tournament. Asking for equal representation is going against what the majority of players want. Doubles players are a minority, Oceanic players are a minority, if we start giving equal representation to everything we will end up with a pretty awful competitive scene where minorities are holding majorities hostage. Real equal representation needs to take into account popularity of each tier. 

 

I don't think anyone requested a 1.1 ratio of doubles tournaments compared with the "legitimate tiers", the people are voicing their concerns in this thread because of the severe lack of doubles tournaments. The real issue I have with doubles not having a fair representation is that doubles is a completely different ball game to singles, just imagine having a sports facility but it is used for primarily football and basketball, while tennis is almost completely neglected. Why even bother with tennis in the first place? Because people do legitimately play it. We are not asking to take hostage of the timeslots of many officials, we just want to actually play the tier we have invested into, increasing the amount of doubles officials by about 2 (this is just a reasonable placeholder number) a month does not look devastating in my opinion.

[Zigh]

4 hours ago, gbwead said:

I am pretty sure most of our player base don't want Doubles tournaments taking the time slot of OU, UU or NU tournaments.

We have lots of OU, UU and NU tournaments, switching 1 or 2 of those tours for a Doubles one wont hurt anyone.

 

And plz, try not to write "tier" like if it wasnt. It changes the viability and usage of the mons, so is obviously a tier itself (ez example: while in OU, skar is a top tier pokemon, in Doubles is mostly useless)

Edited November 4, 2016 by Zigh
Thx Bear <3

[xStarr]

Doubles ain't a tier.

Edited November 4, 2016 by xStarr
Triggered?

[Elliasal]

Doubles should be given more thought in terms of events mostly because the standard pokemon VGC is all doubles, so it goes to show how much the pokemon fan base values doubles as a whole. Seeing this connection could also attract more players who love the current meta of the ORAS, and would like to see a different change of pace compared to the overcenterized ORAS meta we are currently seeing.

[Rendiz]

GB why did you need to do this? Welp you triggered me so here we go.

6 hours ago, gbwead said:

this lower skill based "tier" only takes away from the main tiers of our competitive scene

Something that requires far more thought processes and options takes less skill? Sure there is rng in the tier but that doesn't mean it isn't skillful and also at this point I'm really not convinced that the rng is significantly worse than in singles a lot of the time.

 

6 hours ago, gbwead said:

we see at most 5 dedicated doubles/LC players that show off their comps and the rest of the players run gimmicks. We see new players break through in NU, UU and OU all the time. However, we don't see any of those in Doubles which shows that low ressources players are just not willing to prepare for those tournaments.

There is far more than 5 doubles players don't even kid yourself. Also do you maybe think that the reason we see less breakthrough players in other tiers than in doubles is because they get 4-5 times more tournaments?

6 hours ago, gbwead said:

I don't think imposing more doubles tournaments to a player base that imo don't enjoy Doubles is a good idea. We have too many tiers and, if we start to give them equal representation, we will just end up with a divide and conquer strategy that will break the game.

Where did you get the opinion that the entire community doesn't like doubles? We have filled up large doubles brackets which show interest. And there have been lots of people interested in the tier only to be turned off because there are no tournaments. We are not asking for equal representation. if he had even half the tournaments that the other tiers had that would still be over double what we have now. Divide and conquer strategy that will break the game? Please there is no way that this could possibly kill OU since that's what every new player gravitates to, if doubles becomes more popular than UU / NU why would that be a bad thing?

 

5 hours ago, gbwead said:

I am only saying that the development of the Doubles "tier" should not come at the extent of our main tiers that work and that people actually want. From what I can see, our main Doubles players are all old pre-hoeen players. They all have ease getting into the tier since their doubles comps are recycled comps from the pre split era. We can't assume the only reason why players don't play doubles is because there are no doubles tournaments. It is very probable that they simply don't want to play in that tier. When I look at the round 1 of an OU tournament, I see a bunch of Umbreons. When I look at the round 1 of a Doubles tournaments, I see some Chanseys and Haunters even though Blissey and Gengar are available. There is a clear disconnect between the preparation needed to play Doubles and the amount of investment players are willing to put in Doubles comps.

I really don't think you have much evidence that the community as a whole doesn't want doubles when it was growing significantly and looking to overtake some of the lower tiers until being neglected.

 

Our main doubles players are all old pre-hoenn players? Well considering I'm not I have to very strongly disagree with you. Also considering the fact that I have had loads of people message me about wanting to get into doubles and asking for sets with the majority of them not being pre-hoenn players either I would have to disagree even further + that shows that lots more people are interested in doubles, but then its incredibly sad to see these players slowly lose interest in the tier when there are no tournaments posted.

 

Yes there are some people who go in with shit like chansey and haunter but those are in the minority. In tournaments I've been matched with complete randoms who I have never heard of who bring out real doubles teams (stuff like hitmontop cores not just ubers like you say). And yes there is a disconnect about how many people invest solely into doubles comps but that is closing all the time and would close even faster if we had any tournaments.

 

5 hours ago, gbwead said:

When people are asking for equal representation between the "legitimate tiers" of PokeMMO, they are also asking for a huge influx of singles players to switch to Doubles. Every time we get an OU tournament, we don't get an UU, NU, LC or Doubles tournament and every time we get a Doubles tournament, we don't get an OU, UU, NU or LC tournament. Asking for equal representation is going against what the majority of players want. Doubles players are a minority, Oceanic players are a minority, if we start giving equal representation to everything we will end up with a pretty awful competitive scene where minorities are holding majorities hostage. Real equal representation needs to take into account popularity of each tier. 

 

We aren't asking for equal representation we are asking for any representation period. You can say whatever you want about "legitimate tiers" but all that is showing is your biased against doubles when its clear from VGC that doubles is a tier that is competitive, I would understand the stance more against LC.

 

 

I think I've got it all. Tired / triggered now thanks GB.

[Gunthug]

Man this is really a small gripe but doubles isn't actually a tier, it's a metagame all on its own 

 

e: it has occurred to me that this has probably already been brought up since I'm seeing " marks around the word "tier" 

Edited November 4, 2016 by Gunthug

[Moetal]

Maybe I don't understand doubles completely, but doubles are by far the most boring matches to watch. I have, on multiple occasions, try to spectate double matches. Even matches between my close friends bored me to the point I had to stop spectating. I honestly rather watch two Chaney or two snorlax pp stall each other to death than watch this snorefest.

The only redeemable point of doubles is the different strategy/theory and team building than regular matches. Team building portion of doubles is much much more interesting than the actual gameplay. Should doubles be recognized? Maybe as likely and as legitimately as LC

[Thunderprime]

Doubles tourney aint filling because people like it, but because any pokemon can enter. Kinda easy to bring 6 pokes then. This isnt showdown where you get any team you need instantly, not many people want to rebreed a 2nd or 3rd version of some OU mons just to fit the tier. And then the team get scouted by the 8 double players who fully invest in it. Boring tier, no wonder it is always the same people who win them.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Thunderprime

[Murcielago]

While I won't be playing doubles any time soon... it seems a bit silly that things like "little cup" and "catch event" get more love and give out legitimate prizes... I mean this upcoming "critical hit" event has a better prize purse than most ou tournaments... a 2x31, 4x25 w/ choice of hp genderless shiny?
... Thats the best prize I have seen offered in a while... and for what? Catching some wild pokemon that can use the move explosion?

 

 

[Sashaolin]

LC > Doubles

[BlackJovi]

42 minutes ago, Murcielago said:

I mean this upcoming "critical hit" event has a better prize purse than most ou tournaments... a 2x31, 4x25 w/ choice of hp genderless shiny?
... Thats the best prize I have seen offered in a while... and for what? Catching some wild pokemon that can use the move explosion?

 

 

It's like a slap to the face on the comp players. 

Edited November 4, 2016 by BlackJovi

[Mike]

8 minutes ago, BlackJovi said:

It's like a slap to the face on the comp players. 

B-but PvE players deserve the same prizes for doing way less effort and even more RNG based than battling!!!!1!1!!11! - People who decided on the prizes for officials 

[BlackJovi]

3 minutes ago, TheChampionMike said:

B-but PvE players deserve the same prizes for doing way less effort and even more RNG based than battling!!!!1!1!!11! - People who decided on the prizes for officials 

I just hope actual comp players win it so the shinies are actually useful 

[Munya]

I'm going to win it and go to lavender tower and explode against all the ghosts there, repeatedly, using the healing circle.

 

[Murcielago]

2 minutes ago, Munya said:

I'm going to win it and go to lavender tower and explode against all the ghosts there, repeatedly, using the healing circle.

 

Sounds like a plan.  Also make sure to spend the 1.3 mil that comes with it on vanity items.

[Noad]

1 hour ago, BlackJovi said:

It's like a slap to the face on the comp players. 

I'm sorry but as the staff member hosting the event, I take this comment personally because you are insinuating that I made the prize in an attempt to slight competitive players. This is categorically untrue, I always try to balance my prizes the best way I can and I believe for the most part I have done this. I value players equally, there are some players who come online purely to shiny hunt, berry grow ect and others who take part competitively. My job is to make events to cater all types of players. I would never not give out a shiny for a PvP event because "oh this should only be given out in a PvP event", why should people who dont comp be deprived of nice shinies as well? People like DarylDixonTWD (I know recently he started comp) and Bestfriends have been players just as long as some competitive players and they shouldn't come second to them. 

 

 

[BlackJovi]

2 minutes ago, Noad said:

I'm sorry but as the staff member hosting the event, I take this comment personally because you are insinuating that I made the prize in an attempt to slight competitive players. This is categorically untrue, I always try to balance my prizes the best way I can and I believe for the most part I have done this. I value players equally, there are some players who come online purely to shiny hunt, berry grow ect and others who take part competitively. My job is to make events to cater all types of players. I would never not give out a shiny for a PvP event because "oh this should only be given out in a PvP event", why should people who dont comp be deprived of nice shinies as well? People like DarylDixonTWD (I know recently he started comp) and Bestfriends have been players just as long as some competitive players and they shouldn't come second to them. 

 

 

triggered c u 

[Bearminator]

-"Please do not put pokemons who needs hidden power as PVP prizes! They're useless!"

 

months later 

 

-"Why do catching events gets better prizes?"

[KaynineXL]

2 minutes ago, Bearminator said:

-"Please do not put pokemons who needs hidden power as PVP prizes! They're useless!"

 

months later 

 

-"Why do catching events gets better prizes?"

Years later...

 

"devs can u fix automated shiny prizes so we can pick the correct hidden power"

 

hue

[Noad]

1 minute ago, BlackJovi said:

triggered c u 

If you think that's a crying post, you must be brain damaged from all the "slaps to the face" our staff give you when we host events.

[Imperial]

Okay, so people say that doubles isn't considered a tier, but in my opinion it's a completely different skill in its own. You can say it's more based on chance, but you can also say

you have to think about many more situations and definitely twice as hard.

 

I agree with Draekyn, there's a variety of "smaller" prizes to give out, especially if the usage % on the Pokémon are high. And that's what I feel we should base our prizes on - the usage, not the rarity, as at the end of the day all shinies are untradeable so practically unless you use them for battle they all deserve the same equality. I state this as a shiny trader.

 

I would also say doubles are one of the most unpredictable and unique tiers, but regardless if it fills up it definitely deserves a chance - after all we ARE aiming for variety, right?

Edited November 5, 2016 by Imperial

[Rendiz]

7 hours ago, Noad said:

I'm sorry but as the staff member hosting the event, I take this comment personally because you are insinuating that I made the prize in an attempt to slight competitive players. This is categorically untrue, I always try to balance my prizes the best way I can and I believe for the most part I have done this. I value players equally, there are some players who come online purely to shiny hunt, berry grow ect and others who take part competitively. My job is to make events to cater all types of players. I would never not give out a shiny for a PvP event because "oh this should only be given out in a PvP event", why should people who dont comp be deprived of nice shinies as well? People like DarylDixonTWD (I know recently he started comp) and Bestfriends have been players just as long as some competitive players and they shouldn't come second to them. 

You probably shouldn't read too much into it or take it personally. It is possible for someone to feel like they are getting a slap in the face without feeling discriminated against. A doctor could feel its a slap in the face that footballers get payed millions for kicking a ball around while they get payed less for literally saving lives.

 

I personally have to say I get slightly annoyed when I see some random person get a comp shiny as good as if not better (rip 1x31 comp shinys) than what I have gotten when they put in far far less work than I did to get mine. It's not that I feel discriminated against it's just I feel that the effort =/= reward when we put hundreds of hours into breeding for a tournament. It's not that I don't think these PvE players should be given a comp but there doesn't seem that much reason for giving a 'comp' prize for a non comp event other than feeling like being nice and giving them a better prize. And if that is the reason then there really doesn't seem like there is any reason not to give a 3-6x31 as a prize for comp event outside of the silly economy debate when in reality isn't really a factor.

 

But I digress, this is really a discussion for another time / place / thread and is a pretty small issue in comparison for me at least. I know you have hosted doubles tournaments before as well as other staff members and I really am appreciative and so I don't really want to burden you if this is something you aren't particularly interested in. I can understand if some of the staff maybe do not care much for doubles and therefor are less inclined to host them but any doubles events at all would be much appreciated from any that decide to host them.

[DoctorPBC]

Why are staff derailing my thread