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The blatant ignoring of doubles as a legitimate tier


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Doubles is in the team tournament rotation and has it's own seasonal, therefore it is seen by staff as a legitimate tier

 

It receives at most two tournaments a month, usually one

 

When is this going to change, despite it being one of the most popular tiers its on the backburner constantly... even behind LC as of late

 

Automated tournaments from the past 10 tournament pages ingame (including ones set to occur)

 

OU: 31 tournaments 

UU: 34 tournaments

NU: 31 tournaments

Doubles: 7 tournaments

LC: 6 tournaments

 

 

I also want to point out 3 of those doubles tournaments happened before July, so we have had 4 doubles tournaments since the start of July

 

P.S: Im tired of being ignored in event feedback, I try and give a comment regarding the status of doubles at least every couple weeks... so I decided to make a thread

Edited by DoctorPBC
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I think the reason why staff aren't doing alot of Doubles officials is because of the pokemon that are used in it are all very rare in shiny form and cannot be given out and stuff. I tried putting out some doubles myself but when most of the tier exists out of starters/pseudo legends it isn't easy to find a good prize for it that isn't redicilously rare. And the other pokemon are also usable in other tiers and those pokemon are usually given out in OU/UU/NU. Although they can very easily make a Doubles tournament without a shiny prize.

 

Maybe put it in the Community Combat? Anyway I do agree that there should be more love for doubles.

Edited by TheChampionMike
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Doubles prizes ideas that hopefully haven't been spammed yet like ludicolo or kingdra: Crobat, Breloom, Granbull, Slaking, Arcanine, Starmie, Hariyama, Marowak, Electrode, Lanturn, Ninjask, Machamp, Kabutops pls

Some of these may promote out of the box teambuilding which is always good for the tier

Seeing milotics spam icy wind at each other waiting for a switch-in makes me sad stop doing that

 

Some doubles tourneys as community combat is an option too

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2 minutes ago, TheChampionMike said:

I mean 128 man doubles have filled before/almost filled. So people do play it. Even tho 80% of those people just went in with OU pokemon but shh

you want a 128 man community combat for doubles? Good joke m9

 

But I do think it should get some love, even tho if its not a tier

 

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I've posted a bunch of times that there should be a prize reform in regards to what prizes are allowed to be given / how often they should be given. I appreciate that for the seasonal and for a couple of tournaments afterwards we had some really sweet prizes that helped encourage people to play the tier and made the tier flourish. But recently it seems far far too often that the better available prizes are usually given to other tiers giving doubles about 8 or shinys many of which being shitty that keep being rotated even if they aren't very viable in doubles. (doduo coz doubles geddit xDxDxD).

 

This all leaves staff in a really shit position where the remaining prizes are either not allowed to be given (roughly 50% of the doubles meta) and leaving the remainder split with other tiers. Considering doubles is a different meta game completely I see no reason for these prizes to be shared in any way, especially when these shinys aren't ultra rare so it's not like the guy who won the shiny in OU / UU would have his prize be any less special.

 

It's so sad to see doubles getting neglected like this. We are still lacking a cancel button we've been asking for forever and is really important for the tier. For a long time it was considered a gimmick tier but it has picked up a lot of steam and had a lot more people dedicating time to it only to stop because there are no tournaments. With all the constant complaining there is about the staleness of OU / UU tiers and the mess that is made by tiering decisions doubles is actually surprisingly well balanced and is likely to stay that way throughout changes. So why when we have a relatively stable tier with lots of innovation that was growing at a tremendous rate is it that we are suddenly promoting a new tier (LC) when the last one which is in a really good state is being completely neglected?

 

One last thing to staff I understand that there is a lot of negativity and criticism as of late around the event suggestions and I can understand that you may feel as though we are all just circle jerking around every post. But that is simply not the case. The reason we complain is because we care and we are trying to help you to improve the state of the game so please just this once listen to us.

Edited by Rendiz
Because I Can
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4 hours ago, TheChampionMike said:

I mean 128 man doubles have filled before/almost filled. So people do play it. Even tho 80% of those people just went in with OU pokemon but shh

Double post coz fuck it.

 

A few months ago I went through a doubles bracket and looked for who did and did not have a legitimate doubles team and who just brought random stuff. And surprisingly about 40/64 players had a real doubles team, maybe not perfect but lets be honest most people entering OU tournaments don't bring teams that are really anything that could be considered good.


This was a few months back. If we had real doubles support I'm sure that number would rise a lot.

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But doubles is not a tier...

 

 

In all seriousness, I'm very surprised for the unpopularity of Doubles to begin with and I'm surprised only now someone is voicing up about this. What comes to competitive gameplay, Doubles is a whole different game. It isn't just the same shit with different Pokemon like UU and NU. In Doubles you have to consider completely different things when planning a move, because of the combinations you can make each turn I personally think you process at least 8 times more information in a turn of Doubles than in a turn of Singles. Playing that is a whole completely new experience of competitive play. There definitely should be more action for it than it has now.

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I totally agree with this threat. Doubles has been the official tier for the Pokemon Championships, and for obvious reasons, like more complexity, diversity of strategies, etc. This tier could just refresh PokeMMO's pvp side, being OU the most played tier, and tbh, isnt as good as it should.

With the actual support to doubles, is normal that ppl wont breed/train pokes for it, unless they really enjoy it, the community needs something to work with (Doubles in matchmaking for example) As new players enter into the competitive scene, they focus on OU, and maybe UU/NU, because that are the tiers they can see in-game, by using the dex or the pvp window. The doubles tours are usually full, meaning that at least a bunch of players are interested in the tier, and so, they shouldnt be put aside.

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10 hours ago, TheChampionMike said:

I think the reason why staff aren't doing alot of Doubles officials is because of the pokemon that are used in it are all very rare in shiny form and cannot be given out and stuff. I tried putting out some doubles myself but when most of the tier exists out of starters/pseudo legends it isn't easy to find a good prize for it that isn't redicilously rare. And the other pokemon are also usable in other tiers and those pokemon are usually given out in OU/UU/NU. Although they can very easily make a Doubles tournament without a shiny prize.

 

Maybe put it in the Community Combat? Anyway I do agree that there should be more love for doubles.

there isn't a need for shiny prizes. I'd like doubles tourneys aswell, even without prize I'd join, for the fun.

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I am actually glad Doubles don't get more tournaments since this lower skill based "tier" only takes away from the main tiers of our competitive scene. In order to build a strong competitive player base, it is important to not divide players with tiers like LC and Doubles that are ultimately not that interresting. In those tournaments, we see at most 5 dedicated doubles/LC players that show off their comps and the rest of the players run gimmicks. We see new players break through in NU, UU and OU all the time. However, we don't see any of those in Doubles which shows that low ressources players are just not willing to prepare for those tournaments. I don't think imposing more doubles tournaments to a player base that imo don't enjoy Doubles is a good idea. We have too many tiers and, if we start to give them equal representation, we will just end up with a divide and conquer strategy that will break the game.

 

Despite the fact that OU is by far the most popular tier in PokeMMO, we ended up in October with 2 OU tournaments compared to the 4+ LC tournaments. This is very bad imo. 

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54 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I am actually glad Doubles don't get more tournaments since this lower skill based "tier" only takes away from the main tiers of our competitive scene. In order to build a strong competitive player base, it is important to not divide players with tiers like LC and Doubles that are ultimately not that interresting. In those tournaments, we see at most 5 dedicated doubles/LC players that show off their comps and the rest of the players run gimmicks. We see new players break through in NU, UU and OU all the time. However, we don't see any of those in Doubles which shows that low ressources players are just not willing to prepare for those tournaments. I don't think imposing more doubles tournaments to a player base that imo don't enjoy Doubles is a good idea. We have too many tiers and, if we start to give them equal representation, we will just end up with a divide and conquer strategy that will break the game.

 

Despite the fact that OU is by far the most popular tier in PokeMMO, we ended up in October with 2 OU tournaments compared to the 4+ LC tournaments. This is very bad imo. 

Even though it is true the playerbase has always directed towards playing singles over doubles, saying that you shouldn't enforce a tier with lower amount of players is sort of an endless loop. No players -> no tournaments -> no players. For VGC players Doubles probably feels the one and only natural competitive format because that's what they're forced to play.

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55 minutes ago, gbwead said:

In order to build a strong competitive player base, it is important to not divide players with tiers like LC and Doubles that are ultimately not that interresting. In those tournaments, we see at most 5 dedicated doubles/LC players that show off their comps and the rest of the players run gimmicks. 

I'm pretty sure there are more than 5 dedicated doubles players, as for LC it seems like there was mostly hype just for the magbrawl because of the cofirmed tournaments 5 weeks in a row, I don't expect to see LC tournaments to pop up very often (and tbh I'm not sure why you would point to LC as it is not the main focus of the thread). 

 

By gimmicks do you mean people using OU teams or gimmicks built for doubles? In the case of it being the latter why is this a bad thing? Those players chose to experiment to find new potential strategies, just like standard tiers adapt so does doubles. A good example is actually VGC, we see at the start of the season much more offensive teams compared to the end where people generally know the key threats to build a good tanky team. Many of the strategies at the start of the season could be seen as gimmicks, I honestly think gimmicks always hold a place in any meta to catch players off guard.

 

Nobody is asking for a huge influx of singles players to suddenly switch over to solely doubles, the players who are currently playing doubles just want the respect they deserve for grinding out comps. If we actually got more doubles tournaments I'm adamant that we will see a lot more players prepare teams because they know it would be actually useful.

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42 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

Even though it is true the playerbase has always directed towards playing singles over doubles, saying that you shouldn't enforce a tier with lower amount of players is sort of an endless loop. No players -> no tournaments -> no players. For VGC players Doubles probably feels the one and only natural competitive format because that's what they're forced to play.

I am only saying that the development of the Doubles "tier" should not come at the extent of our main tiers that work and that people actually want. From what I can see, our main Doubles players are all old pre-hoeen players. They all have ease getting into the tier since their doubles comps are recycled comps from the pre split era. We can't assume the only reason why players don't play doubles is because there are no doubles tournaments. It is very probable that they simply don't want to play in that tier. When I look at the round 1 of an OU tournament, I see a bunch of Umbreons. When I look at the round 1 of a Doubles tournaments, I see some Chanseys and Haunters even though Blissey and Gengar are available. There is a clear disconnect between the preparation needed to play Doubles and the amount of investment players are willing to put in Doubles comps.

 

30 minutes ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

By gimmicks do you mean people using OU teams or gimmicks built for doubles?

I meant that a lot of players are just not using Doubles comps. I see OU teams in Doubles which is a pretty good indicator of how little people are willing to invest themselves in Doubles.

 

32 minutes ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

Nobody is asking for a huge influx of singles players to suddenly switch over to solely doubles,

When people are asking for equal representation between the "legitimate tiers" of PokeMMO, they are also asking for a huge influx of singles players to switch to Doubles. Every time we get an OU tournament, we don't get an UU, NU, LC or Doubles tournament and every time we get a Doubles tournament, we don't get an OU, UU, NU or LC tournament. Asking for equal representation is going against what the majority of players want. Doubles players are a minority, Oceanic players are a minority, if we start giving equal representation to everything we will end up with a pretty awful competitive scene where minorities are holding majorities hostage. Real equal representation needs to take into account popularity of each tier. 

 

Edited by gbwead
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5 hours ago, gbwead said:

I am only saying that the development of the Doubles "tier" should not come at the extent of our main tiers that work and that people actually want. From what I can see, our main Doubles players are all old pre-hoeen players. They all have ease getting into the tier since their doubles comps are recycled comps from the pre split era. We can't assume the only reason why players don't play doubles is because there are no doubles tournaments. It is very probable that they simply don't want to play in that tier. When I look at the round 1 of an OU tournament, I see a bunch of Umbreons. When I look at the round 1 of a Doubles tournaments, I see some Chanseys and Haunters even though Blissey and Gengar are available. There is a clear disconnect between the preparation needed to play Doubles and the amount of investment players are willing to put in Doubles comps.

"Main tiers"? I don't think PokeMMO has any legitimized "main tiers", tournament hosts please correct me if I'm wrong. Your argument of main Doubles players being from pre-Hoenn era for having a head start against other players is a non-sequitor for two reasons: Lots of viable Doubles Pokemon are from Hoenn era Pokemon and secondly this is also the case with literally every tier in PokeMMO. Also every official's 1st round is full of noobs, since everyone is allowed to join officials - I have no idea how is this an issue for Doubles tournaments.

 

And I didn't imply the only reason people don't play Doubles is the lack of tournaments, I did mention in that very post that players have inclined to go with Singles more naturally.

 

Edit: 10.000th post of all of General Discussion, give me a trophy.

Edited by OrangeManiac
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13 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

"Main tiers"? I don't think PokeMMO has any legitimized "main tiers", tournament hosts please correct me if I'm wrong. Your argument of main Doubles players being from pre-Hoenn era for having a head start against other players is a non-sequitor for two reasons: Lots of viable Doubles Pokemon are from Hoenn era Pokemon and secondly this is also the case with literally every tier in PokeMMO. Also every official's 1st round is full or noobs, since everyone is allowed to join officials - I have no idea how is this an issue for Doubles tournaments.

 

And I didn't imply the only reason people don't play Doubles is the lack of tournaments, I did mention in that very post that players have inclined to go with Singles more naturally.

You are missing my point about pre hoeen players. I am underlining the fact that our Doubles players happen to be pre Hoeen players, players that have plenty of Uber comps that would waste away in their PC if they didn't use them in Doubles. The fact that we don't have new players interested in Doubles, the fact that we don't have new players willing to actually spend their ressources to play Doubles, is a good indication imo that Doubles is quite unpopular compared to other tiers.

 

edit:

13 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

Edit: 10.000th post of all of General Discussion, give me a trophy.

I'll give you a like ^^

Edited by gbwead
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2 minutes ago, gbwead said:

You are missing my point about pre hoeen players. I am underlining the fact that our Doubles players happen to be pre Hoeen players, players that have plenty of Uber comps that would waste away in their PC if they didn't use them in Doubles. The fact that we don't have new players interested in Doubles, the fact that we don't have new players willing to actually spend their ressources to play Doubles, is a good indication imo that Doubles is quite unpopular compared to other tiers.

I wish there was more current usage to back my argument up but when we still had Doubles usage the Uber mons had pretty mediocre usage compared to likes of Metagross, Gyara and (now banned) Gengar. Ttar was legit sub 10%. I don't wanna repeat myself to death but I am aware Doubles is less popular as a playmode, yes. But if we honestly had regular Doubles tournaments it's no question people would make comps for it, heck almost every Magbrawl qualifier got full when the prize was right. And that was damn LC.

 

If you don't like Doubles, that's fine. Even if I don't play it much I still appreciate it for the difference it brings to competitive battling.

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1 minute ago, OrangeManiac said:

If you don't like Doubles, that's fine. Even if I don't play it much I still appreciate it for the difference it brings to competitive battling.

I think I am not the only one that doesn't like Doubles, but I don't mind if some people do like that "tier". What bothers me is the initiative of this thread. By pushing directly for more Doubles tournament, this thread is also pushing for the subtle dismissal of OU, UU and NU. I am pretty sure most of our player base don't want Doubles tournaments taking the time slot of OU, UU or NU tournaments.

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