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[NU Discussion] Absol [Test ban to BL2]

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Since its return to the NU tier Absol has become a dominant force. Absol's main role is pursuit trapping psychic types that are the main check to the threat that is Victreebel. The focus of this discussion is whether or not Absol is uber support in its role of clearing away and almost invalidating the Psychic Types and to a lesser extent Ghost types in the NU tier such as Xatu, Mr. Mime, Grumpig, Claydol, Kadabra, Lunatone, and Solrock. This can be with either pursuit, the threat of megahorn, or stab bite. Absol's presence alone makes players fearful of bringing out their psychic types for fear of pursuit.

 

Much like Houndoom in UU, Absol has benefited form the new items like choice scarf and life ball. With life ball new mixed sets are being made so that it can beat the checks that exist once locked into a move. Life ball also helps the swords dance sets hit even harder and pick up an extra KO or two. Life ball means that because of Absol's decent speed tier it can still outspeed a good portion of the meta and now switch moves still hitting hard. Absol has also benefited from choice scarf which makes sure, that despite its good speed tier, it will out speed any potential threats and hit back hard with its massive base 130 attack stat.

 

Absol does have problems though, unlike with Houndoom, Absol is hit by super effective signal beam, and has paper defenses. If running Choice band, it is extremely likely that Xatu will out speed you and with +1 signal beam KO you. the threat of Signal beam from Kadabra exists as well which can KO you. These 2 threats in particular can almost force Absol to run Choice Scarf and thus limit some sets that Absol can run.

 

Does Absol limit team building too much? Is it Uber Support for its trapping abilities? Is it Uber Offensive? The tier council would like your opinion on Absol in the NU tier. Please keep the discussion focused on Absol and its impact on the tier.

 

Key sets:

Choice Scarf:

Bite

Pursuit

Megahorn

Super Power

 

Choice Band:

Pursuit

Quick attack

Super Power

Megahorn

 

Life orb:

Ice beam

Pursuit

Super Power

Megahorn

 

Other important moves:

Swords Dance

Flamethrower

Thunderbolt

Iron tail 

Double-edge

Return

 

Thanks to Artemiseta for the write-up!

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Ok to start off I think Absol doesn't fall in Uber Offensive Characteristic since we have Hitmontop+Poliwrath in the tier which can wall every Absol set.

Low speed in 75 base and no access to Sucker Punch in this gen makes it tough for SD set to pull off a sweep unless you're facing a really slow team.

CB set can hit almost everything hard but you need to make predictions and even so Hitmontop/Poliwrath are still going to wall you.

 

Main problem with Absol imo is the Scarf set (Bite/Double Edge, Pursuit, Megahorn, Superpower) mainly because of Pursuit. Houndoom was banned from UU for limiting team building due to being able to easily trap Psychic/Ghost types and because of the incredible synergy it formed with Scizor, basically switching into every fire move aimed at Scizor and removing a threat allowing Scizor to come in later and tear holes in teams.

 

In NU I've seen cores like Victreebel+Absol or Curse Muk+Absol which can pretty much fuck most teams since Absol has no problem switching into a Psychic from Grumpig who is there to check Victree/Muk. It also seems that sweepers like Xatu/Kadabra/Misdreavus can't be as viable due to Absol's presence in the tier which is what makes Absol limit team building and puts it into Uber Support Characteristic.

 

I also need to add to the fact walls like Solrock/Claydol/Grumpig have to play 50/50 predicting if Absol is either going to Megahorn or Pursuit which in many cases can screw you up if you make the wrong prediction (You can stay to live Pursuit but instead die to Megahorn or you can switch to avoid Megahorn but instead die to Pursuit).

 

Can't ban Pursuit? Ban Absol.

Edited by LifeStyle

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@LifeStyle

 

I sorta feel bad for nitpicking for a well constructed post but "limiting teambuilding" drastically isn't Uber Support, it's unhealthiness. Absol would be Uber support if it lets its teammates to sweep/wall with ease after it has done its dirty work easily.

 

Grumpig and sp. Def Mime are the only Psychic type that somewhat effectively stop Victreebel so I'm not sure where this Uber supporting Victreebel comes from in the OP because that isn't true. Vic has much harder counters than these two. The unhealthy argument I can relate to because there are very little drawbacks running an Absol. Even if you aren't facing psychic types, Absol is a good enough mon in your team regardless to justify its existence in basically any team. Meanwhile there is a lot of drawbacks to psychics because of Absol, their effectiveness is basically cut down by huge amount because of Absol. Therefor I can see why Absol is unhealthy by having so many reasons to use it and limit the usage of 6-7 viable mons by a mile and thus narrowing the metagame.

 

Edited by OrangeManiac

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Absol is a menace to all psychic types and special walls in NU. The fact that Absol forces the NU tier to think twice about using psychic types allow other Pokemon to abuse it. I feel like the best way to play NU right now is to just partner something with Absol. Muk loves the NU meta without Grumpig or Xatu from wrecking its day, which is exactly what Absol does. Fearow can partner with Absol which can take out Solrock, the most common Fearow counter. Victreebel can partner with Absol which takes out the psychics that come in or even the common special walls Kecleon and Raichu who hate to fight Absol especially if they use protect on the switch which usually ends up in a 50/50.

 

I don't think Absol itself is that strong other than killing the squishy psychics/special walls, but instead it supports other Pokemon to make them much much stronger.

 

My only problem is, we've never seen an NU tier without Absol or Sneasel since the split if I recall correctly. Psychics have been notorious for being very strong in the tier in the past... and once Absol goes there really won't be a great pursuiter other than Fearow which could be dead weight without Absol to help it out.

 

Things like Xatu, Girafarig, Grumpig and especially Kadabra really will become strong, but I do think it's worth checking what it's really like without Absol.

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I am not following the tier changes and things like that, so forgive me if I am wrong here.

mostly of the psychic types listed here learn signal beam, the main problem with houndoom in UU was that it is neutral for signal beam, life orb xatu does a nice damage to Absol, it just needs to worry about scarf absol:

252 SpA Life Orb Xatu Signal Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Absol: 134-158 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

 

I am not considering Xatu switch in cause the main reason been discussed seems the pursuit thing and the easy way of switch in.

 

Edited by felix
dumbness

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But aren't psychic calm minders like Grumpig/Xatu/Girafig going to be overpowered if you ban Absol (the only viable pursuit user in the tier)?

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Just now, Frag said:

Flareon can easily replace absol, it can't pursuit tho, which is good.

Flareon unfortunately doesn't have the same physical power as Absol to threaten CM'ers like bulky Xatu / Girafaring which have access to early bird. I think Raichu does well vs Xatu, but for Gira, I'm not sure. Sharpedo will most likely become a necessity to revenge kill.

 

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4 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

@LifeStyle

 

I sorta feel bad for nitpicking for a well constructed post but "limiting teambuilding" drastically isn't Uber Support, it's unhealthiness. Absol would be Uber support if it lets its teammates to sweep/wall with ease after it has done its dirty work easily.

Rip my English, I didn't mean its Uber support cuz it limits team building, I meant its uber support because it helps stuff like Vic/Muk sweep with ez

Basically I meant to say it restricts team building and its uber support

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1 hour ago, NikhilR said:

Flareon unfortunately doesn't have the same physical power as Absol to threaten CM'ers like bulky Xatu / Girafaring which have access to early bird. I think Raichu does well vs Xatu, but for Gira, I'm not sure. Sharpedo will most likely become a necessity to revenge kill.

 

That's right, but bulky pokes always lack the firepower and speed to kill other swepers, investing in bulkiness would only help to kill walls, which might be a backfire if you are playing vs cband users or a fast team, also the fly type on xatu totally ruins it, there's no way it becomes a threat. as for the others I think we might get to see more jumpluff and trick stuff in order to stop them. a new fresh meta would emerge without absol.

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After being first rounded, RIP me, I started watching the NU tournament today and quickly realized just how broken Absol really is. It has coverage on everything in the game and can easily spam really powerful CB attacks. Paired with STAB Pursuit, it renders a certain subset of Pokemon (Psychic-types) rather worthless unless they run a bizarre set that makes them kinda shit (looks at SweeT's Sleep Talk + Snore Pig). Aside from Psychic-type Pokemon, Pursuit with Choice Scarf (or even Choice Band against slower threats) can easily remove weakened opponents and most squishy special attackers which are prominent in NU.

 

It seems like every time Absol swaps in, there is a 50/50 that has to be made. To me, that's broken. 

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I think it should stay NU while rapidash goes to UU, because mean look perish song absol can't stop Typhlosion but bold flash fire rapidash can.

tl;dr ban rapidash keep absol 

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Tier Council message about Absol:

 

Now that Absol has risen above the UU usage cutoff and therefore will be leaving the NU tier for at least 2 months (thanks to Gunthug's genius "yo-yo" rule), we'd like to announce that we'll be treating this extended departure as Absol's unhealthiness test. After two months, if Absol is eligible to re-enter the NU tier by falling below the UU usage cutoff, we'll be making a decision as to whether Absol should be banned permanently for being unhealthy. We'd love feedback on how the absence of absol affects the NU metagame, in the meantime.

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I'm actually really liking the meta game since Absol's departure.

 

It's no longer so focused on the poison type mons and we now have a bunch of psychics that are really making an impact on the tier. Previously, I feel like it was so centralised around poison pokemon that it heavily restricted your team building, or you just built full out offense and hope you win. The tier relied on a lot of 50/50 absol traps and overall felt risky/less skillful and made it very boring imo.

 

Right now we have a fresh meta, a lot of offense with a bunch of walls that are just about enough to try and hold them off, but not so much that it makes stall impossible/annoying to fight.

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