Confusion thread

[RysPicz]

48 minutes ago, BudsBender said:

LOLs.

 

What is bad about a slowbro or slowking? when ur so skilled players chances to have one in team are pretty high. Switch in or stay with your armaldo if u feel fine and take the win, why u cy?

Spoiler

once again, who are you? your name doesn't really ring a bell...

Well, I don't cry- I have no reason for it. I lost because of a confusion literally only one game (like ~~1.5-2 months ago against ZDFire who swagger'd my cblax). Only person who came here and cries is literally only you...

 

What is bad about Slowbro and Slowking? Well, probably this: the main user of Swagger, the most common confuse- inducing move in OU is a Jolteon. Is that an argument enough to abolish your theory about Slowbro being a good confuse absorber?

About Slowking- this example is legit in UU, especially because it's a premier physical wall and it deals with Crobat pretty nicely as well (most common confuse user).

I don't know about NU.

48 minutes ago, BudsBender said:

Explain me where, there is no skill, if someone would win some torunaments with a confusion set in it?

You don't seem to be catching the point. Throwing everything into hands of RNG does not promote any skills. This does not make you predict. This does not make you outplay your opponet.

Recently, we saw Walpayer winning against Kevola in an OU battle because he managed to score enough confuse turns on his Chansey while also hitting with Thunderbolt. If someone would tell me that Walpayer won using his skills (which I totally do not want to doubt in here- his mad PSL winrate along with a reputation and #1 place on leaderboard speak for themselves) I would laugh in his face and suggest seeing a psychiatrist.

48 minutes ago, BudsBender said:

Just because its dmg ratio is lowerd in future, doenst say its uncompetive. Just says it had to be balanced due the changes in the game it had through the process and the effect was quiet old i guess and maybe bit overpowerd. But the sense of it isn´t about luck. There are cardgameprofessionals.

Could you please accept that there are players out there that wanna play different strategies?

In my example, ill took myself. I would like to see more pokemons viable to each Tier. So This Crobat in your example wouldnt exist in meta, if confuse ray would be banned. Or well it would be ha hard nerf for alot of these utility pokemons.

And " i dont like to play against it" or "these players are not Entalligent!" is all you say here. You also loose vs normal Players because you are bad or u got parahax right? When you loose vs Crobat he had only luckhax...kiddd.

This part of the post is so clustered that Spiderman should come and derail it...

 

Okay. It's chance percentage, not damage ratio, is lowered, let's be precise. Across the generations, developers were including more and more mechanics to make the game more competitive and less luck based. This is the sense. It is about luck.

I surely do accept that there are players who play different strategies. I absolutely love when something completly unseen before pops out, I enjoy watching unorthodox plays that pay off. What I hate, is when player brainlessly pushes "swagger" or "confuse ray" hoping for his opponet to hit himself, even when it's one of the worst plays they can make and they put the pokemon itself at risk. And when they get away with it.

I'm also up to see as many pokemons viable in each tier as it's possible, belive me. Crobat with it's expansive movepool surely is a very viable UU pokemon and definietly does not need confuse ray in it's moveset to be effective.

 

I have never said anything like you just quoted. I'm unsure if you're aware that the way you're posting makes you much less credible and people will not be taking your statements seriously if you cannot argument your stand properly. I haven't said that "i don't like to play against it" nor "these players are not entalligent". I asked you a question which you failed to response for- I still fail to see any strategy behind staying on a potentially incredibly threatening pokemon and using confuse ray on it.

Of course, I am sometimes mad when I get haxed. When 2 of my pokemons get frozen ( @TheNightArch ) or something like that. It's a part of the game and it happens, especially when it's caused by something that none of us are able to control. Confuse is a different story- it makes the game a coinflip. Also like I said, justice was served and Crobat was killed (proves that skill> confuse ;) ).

48 minutes ago, BudsBender said:

RNG is not completly random, if you guys would at least inform yourself u would know that u can have an influence on it, says: the bigger the influence u make the bigger skill u have. Simply said.

RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR IS NOT COMPLETLY RANDOM. OH MY GOD. I wanna stop reading and analyzing your post after reading this but I keep finding some more divine knowledge and entertainment from it so I'll allow myself to move on and try not to laugh out too much I promise.

Right. So basically, what you're saying here is that the more influence on luck you have, the bigger your skill. Thank you for correcting my competitive vision, I always thought that the main point of a competitive battle is to outplay your opponet and predict his moves, I'm glad you enlightened me (and possibly few more people from the competitive society).

 

Last part of the post is about your personal prefferences which I don't really care about and they do not make any valid points about the status itself being uncompetitive.

 

Edited October 25, 2016 by RysPicz

[BudsBender]

Maybe i dont care about being credible because all your argumentations eem so senseless that im not even affraid that confuse ray could be banned after ur argumentation ...Pls accept ur thinking of RNG, Comp, ect is just an opinion and i´m not interested in it. For u Random is random for me its math and kinda fun. U go type advantage? i go %advantage and thats why idgaf about ur opionion. 50%dmg/50%chance phrase of urs made clear that you have no idea about that playstyle. Good bye wont argue anymore with ppl that aren´t even trying to inform or understand the idea others have about smth.

Tears r made fore rolin.

Edited October 25, 2016 by BudsBender

[RysPicz]

8 minutes ago, BudsBender said:

Good bye wont argue anymore with ppl that aren´t even trying to inform or understand the idea others have about smth.

Have a like from me for entertaining me in this rainy afternoon and thank you for the fruitful discussion :)

10 minutes ago, BudsBender said:

Tears r made fore rolin.

Spoiler

mine did from laugh when I read that random number generator isn't random

 

[xXBlu3BreathXx]

The real issue I find with confusion is that it takes away autonomy for the player that takes a hit. Players who senselessly spam confuse ray deserve to lose, I recently ran into a sub swagger electabuzz which destroyed my raichu with 4 hits of confusion, sure I'm salty, but when your counter is rendered useless because of something that is out of your control I find it hard to justify keeping it. I'm aware that there are other ways to induce confusion such as signal beam however these are not a real issue since you cannot mindlessly spam it.

 In theory you can win a game by spamming confuse ray, it shouldn't happen but we have all seen those clutch flinches which has less chance to remove a turn from your opponent, the same is applied to confuse ray, sure they dont inflict instant damage but you get the point.

 I believe it is fair to warrant a confusion ban for standard tiers, confusion is much less of an issue in later gens due to a vast library of pokemon and less brain dead players spamming confuse ray.

[gbwead]

Confusion moves are quite bad, but when those moves are played in conjonction with Substitute, the confusion becomes uncompetitive. 

Spamming a confusion move by itself is a high risk / low reward strategy. Spamming a confusion move in conjonction with Substitute becomes a low risk / medium reward strategy.

 

I still believe in what I said previously in this thread:

On 17/09/2016 at 6:30 PM, gbwead said:

When someone is spamming Confuse Ray, we are talking by definition of multiple events. In the natural course of a duel, the pokemon using a confusion move is usually using that confusion move against a counter. If I am facing a Gyarados and if my current pokemon can't deal with Gyarados, I should naturally switch in a pokemon that can. If Gyarados uses Swagger on the pokemon that switches in (Ludicolo, Milotic, Vaporeon, Gyarados, Porygon2, ...), what is the Swagger Gyarados really going to accomplish beside maybe haxing me a little? Even though the odds are 50/50 per turn, my Gyarados counter will gain way more by winning the 50/50 than the Gyarados could ever hope for.

 

Overall, the more a confusion move is spammed, the more likely it will be that the two players win an equivalent number of 50/50. However, since winning a 50/50 is usually not as beneficial for the confusion move spammer than it is for the non confusion move spammer, the confusion move spammer will usually be on the losing end if that strategy is used.

 

When the confusion move is paired with Substitute, everything changes. Perhaps, this combo is uncompetitive, but using a confusion move by itself is hardly broken imo.

I think something to keep in mind is that Confusion is very bad on slow pokemons and that imo is a good indicator that a flat ban would be somewhat innapropriate. 

 

[Pythonhier]

I don't understand the argument that by having confusion allowed creates less diversity in the current meta?

Currently the meta is a Curse/Stall only meta with little to no diversity.  Really the only other kind of pokemon I see is one based off Paralysis, or Confusion.  Take any of those out of the meta will only revert to a Curse/Stall only meta, Snorlax becomes Uber, and Miltank becomes OU.

Then what's stopping the move attract?  Are we then going to ban that too cause it's a move based off RNG?

Also in the argument against RNG, no one is speaking about Critical's, miss chance, and chance abilities. Remove those from the game cause "I can't have RNG in Pokemon" what are we left with?

These are litterally just honest questions to be considered. All I have been seeing is people saying "I lost cause of the RNG from Confusion, ban it please", and the only viable argument is that it's RNG based, and people want the game to have more skill.  The problem with that is the biggest argument, is how much are we going to take from the game till it's not Pokemon anymore? Will this just become a monster battle game, that you could be playing instead - off facebook?

Edited October 26, 2016 by Pythonhier

[OrangeManiac]

I think there's a bit of an issue with what's going on currently what comes to competitive discussion and decisionmaking. All the experinced players get the seats in Tier Council which is all good and reasonable and in general experienced players are credited much more by default in these discussion threads. Where this has lead to is to bunch of discussions which particularly are about something really luck centralized, such as Lax and Confuse hax. Don't get me wrong, all these are discussions worth talking about and anyone is entitled to their opinion.... but it is a little bit an issue to me where the experienced players get to push the game into favoring experienced players where this is a game that is so majorly affected by luck that if you took it all away from it we wouldn't be talking about the same game anymore. Obviously some things are more RNG cancerous than others (i.e. Evasion spam, Gen6 SwaggerPlay) so it's hard to set the limit but confusion inducing moves as itself isn't enough by any means to me.

[NikhilR]

5 hours ago, Pythonhier said:

I don't understand the argument that by having confusion allowed creates less diversity in the current meta?

Currently the meta is a Curse/Stall only meta with little to no diversity.  Really the only other kind of pokemon I see is one based off Paralysis, or Confusion.  Take any of those out of the meta will only revert to a Curse/Stall only meta, Snorlax becomes Uber, and Miltank becomes OU.

Then what's stopping the move attract?  Are we then going to ban that too cause it's a move based off RNG?

Also in the argument against RNG, no one is speaking about Critical's, miss chance, and chance abilities. Remove those from the game cause "I can't have RNG in Pokemon" what are we left with?

These are litterally just honest questions to be considered. All I have been seeing is people saying "I lost cause of the RNG from Confusion, ban it please", and the only viable argument is that it's RNG based, and people want the game to have more skill.  The problem with that is the biggest argument, is how much are we going to take from the game till it's not Pokemon anymore? Will this just become a monster battle game, that you could be playing instead - off facebook?

This is an extract from an earlier post I made 

 

" This here is mostly a note to all the jackasses that compare confusion to other status effects, or say that "RNG is a part of the game, so accept it"  or say that "Pokemon is a game of rng, if you don't like it then go play something else" : We can't ban crits, burns, freezes or enforce 100% move accuracy on all moves, but we can ban moves whose primary effect is to cause confusion because as I mentioned, all it does is decide the game by RNG. It's stupid to keep things in the game which do nothing but amplify the role of rng and at the same time while banning it basically has no negative impact on the metagame. There's a reason why there is a hax items clause (for those plebs who've done no comp and still like to post in comp alley pretending like they know something, have a read (https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/37764-official-pokemmo-list-of-clauses-updated-with-tournament-mode-clauses/ ) and even that has more "strategy" behind it than using confuse ray / swagger.  "

 

If the meta looks curse / stall to you, then try to change it. Think of innovative strategies rather than just following what everyone does. For the record, curse / stall isn't the only viable playstyle. If you want to promote diversity in our meta through luck based factors, then that isn't healthy diversity. The move attract ISN'T the same as confusion because it cannot affect the pokemon of same gender so anyone using it as a strategy is dumb as fuck because it could possibly be useless depending on your matchup, whereas confusion affects almost every pokemon since very few pokemon have own tempo. 

 

What we're playing right now is called competitive battling and not "Who has the better luck?" . I'm not saying there shouldn't be any RNG whatsoever, but using RNG as your strategy to win a match is just not by any means competitive. Have you ever seen a person go into a match with their aim to crit their opponent to death or freeze their opponent to death? No, but they probably use it as a last minute resort and even then the chances of things going their way are far lesser than someone spamming a confusion inducing move. 

[Pythonhier]

3 hours ago, NikhilR said:

This is an extract from an earlier post I made 

 

" This here is mostly a note to all the jackasses that compare confusion to other status effects, or say that "RNG is a part of the game, so accept it"  or say that "Pokemon is a game of rng, if you don't like it then go play something else" : We can't ban crits, burns, freezes or enforce 100% move accuracy on all moves, but we can ban moves whose primary effect is to cause confusion because as I mentioned, all it does is decide the game by RNG. It's stupid to keep things in the game which do nothing but amplify the role of rng and at the same time while banning it basically has no negative impact on the metagame. There's a reason why there is a hax items clause (for those plebs who've done no comp and still like to post in comp alley pretending like they know something, have a read (https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/37764-official-pokemmo-list-of-clauses-updated-with-tournament-mode-clauses/ ) and even that has more "strategy" behind it than using confuse ray / swagger.  "

 

If the meta looks curse / stall to you, then try to change it. Think of innovative strategies rather than just following what everyone does. For the record, curse / stall isn't the only viable playstyle. If you want to promote diversity in our meta through luck based factors, then that isn't healthy diversity. The move attract ISN'T the same as confusion because it cannot affect the pokemon of same gender so anyone using it as a strategy is dumb as fuck because it could possibly be useless depending on your matchup, whereas confusion affects almost every pokemon since very few pokemon have own tempo. 

 

What we're playing right now is called competitive battling and not "Who has the better luck?" . I'm not saying there shouldn't be any RNG whatsoever, but using RNG as your strategy to win a match is just not by any means competitive. Have you ever seen a person go into a match with their aim to crit their opponent to death or freeze their opponent to death? No, but they probably use it as a last minute resort and even then the chances of things going their way are far lesser than someone spamming a confusion inducing move. 

I'm sorry to say but you litterally just described my point.

 

Quote

" This here is mostly a note to all the jackasses that compare confusion to other status effects, or say that "RNG is a part of the game, so accept it"  or say that "Pokemon is a game of rng, if you don't like it then go play something else" : We can't ban crits, burns, freezes or enforce 100% move accuracy on all moves, but we can ban moves whose primary effect is to cause confusion because as I mentioned, all it does is decide the game by RNG. It's stupid to keep things in the game which do nothing but amplify the role of rng and at the same time while banning it basically has no negative impact on the metagame. There's a reason why there is a hax items clause (for those plebs who've done no comp and still like to post in comp alley pretending like they know something, have a read (https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/37764-official-pokemmo-list-of-clauses-updated-with-tournament-mode-clauses/ ) and even that has more "strategy" behind it than using confuse ray / swagger.  "

For starters I'm not a "jackass", it's a legitimate question that needs to be taken into consideration. You say we can't ban crits, burns, freezes, or enforce 100% move accuracy on all moves.  Well, fun fact, we actually can, and with how things are going - this is going to be inevitable. If we continue to allow people who can be considered "sore losers" with nothing more then "I got confused, and that supported my loss" to decide on the clauses enforced in the game. Then we will have no more game left to play.  Also how does causing confusion differate from Freeze, Paralysis, Sleep, Attract, and Accuracy?   These are all things that take random chance into consideration. The current meta is dominated by a Tanky Stallmon named Snorlax, that utilizes the rng from Body Slam's paralysis to make itself even more stronger.

As I understand the desire not to have rng in a competitve game. However by the end of the day you just have to accept that's apart of the game you are choosing to play, and if you are not skilled enough to consider the chance of being hit by a status ailment within your strategy - then it's on you - for your loss.  Not the game.  "Blame the player not the game". Might I also add that every competive game has chance in it.

There is a reason for the hax items clause, and it's not cause of only RNG.  It's also apart of the fact that the items considered "hax items" give a sustantial boost to a specific strategy that is far too strong to have in a competive game. IF there was no counter to confusion then I could understand there being a ban on it, but there is a counter, and it's very easy to understand and utilize, so there is no reason to ban an entire status ailment cause people don't want to research strategy.

 

Quote

If the meta looks curse / stall to you, then try to change it. Think of innovative strategies rather than just following what everyone does. For the record, curse / stall isn't the only viable playstyle. If you want to promote diversity in our meta through luck based factors, then that isn't healthy diversity. The move attract ISN'T the same as confusion because it cannot affect the pokemon of same gender so anyone using it as a strategy is dumb as fuck because it could possibly be useless depending on your matchup, whereas confusion affects almost every pokemon since very few pokemon have own tempo. 

That's not even remotely close to how META's work or develop.  I don't know what competitive games you been playing, but the meta is controlled by whatever the strongest strategy is and then how to counter it.  With buffs and debuffs to different areas that makes the strategy and counter - stronger or weaker.  Untill the counter, or a different counter becomes the strongest strategy, and then the development continues.

There is a reason that Curse and Stall are the current meta, cause that is the strongest strategy the game currently offers with the least amount of strategy against it.  As the game only has a moderate amount of strategy when it comes to a small pool of types (EX; Fighting/Dark), and a heavily controlled structure of Pokemon you're allowed to use. The ability to use roles such as sweepers, or bulkty sweepers becomes nearly impossible, with only a select few Pokemon being able to provide the role reletively well.  With such a small group of sweepers, and bulky sweepers you can use, then it's easy to understand and counter those sweepers to ensure the stategys with Curse, and Stalling succeed even more.  Without any kind of RNG from Paralysis, Sleep, Freeze, Burn, Poison, Accuracy, Field Hazzards, Abilities, Infactuation, Crticals, and Confusion (Please remind me of more), then this strategy will be considered to strong, and then even that will be considered to be banned, untill the Meta only becomes the weaker sweepers, and then it will just be whoever is faster.  Again I will mention understanding how to utilize the effects of dfiferent moves and how to counter them, is the strategy in Pokemon.  If you don't know how to counter something like Confusion, research it, and then you will only be a better player then you are currently.

 

Quote

What we're playing right now is called competitive battling and not "Who has the better luck?" . I'm not saying there shouldn't be any RNG whatsoever, but using RNG as your strategy to win a match is just not by any means competitive. Have you ever seen a person go into a match with their aim to crit their opponent to death or freeze their opponent to death? No, but they probably use it as a last minute resort and even then the chances of things going their way are far lesser than someone spamming a confusion inducing move. 

There is a huge difference between ignorance, and using RNG to win.  How many people do you see running a Pokemon with Rapid Spin?  Not many.  Why?  Cause a majority of players in the game are not putting in the time to research, and strategize in the game to counter basic effects.  They all just run one or two hazzard Pokemon, setup in the first few turns (or not at all).  Run through other Pokemon to widdle down the opponents Pokemon using one Cleric to Heal Bell any permament status effects. Till landing on Curselax, or some sort of stall Pokemon to wipe the slate.



So again.  If we keep banning every move that people who say "I lost a game, my opponent used x, ban it please" what will come to this game.  Will it even be Pokemon anymore?  If you wish I can find a hefty list of Facebook games that is exactly like Pokemon but doesn't have any status effects, or RNG based moves.  Unfortunatly a majority still use Critical, and Accuracy, but even the worlds largest most competivie online games utilize the RNG from Critcal, and Accuracy.

*drops mic*

Edited October 26, 2016 by Pythonhier

[NikhilR]

7 minutes ago, Pythonhier said:

I'm sorry to say but you litterally just described my point.

 

For starters I'm not a jackass, it's a legitimate question that needs to be taken into consideration. You say we can't ban crits, burns, freezes, or enforce 100% move accuracy on all moves.  Well, fun fact, we actually can, and with how things are going this is going to be inevitable if we continue to allow people who can be considered "sore losers" with nothing more then "I got confused, and that supported my loss" to decide on the clauses enforced in the game.  Also how does causing confusion differate from Freeze, Paralysis, Sleep, Attract, and Accuracy?   These are all things that take random chance into consideration. The current meta is dominated by a Tanky Stallmon named Snorlax, that utilizes the rng from Body Slam's paralysis to make itself even more stronger.

At bolded part, no we can't. You claim to not be a jackass yet your posts say otherwise. How does causing confusion differentiate from freeze, paralysis, sleep, attract and accuracy? Freeze is a 10% chance and there's no direct move that causes a freeze, it's a secondary effect which can happen and we don't ban secondary effect. Also freeze status can be eliminated by switching into a fire type move. Spreading paralysis through thunderwave is a strategy because it helps walls cripple their opponent's sweepers. Sleep Powder / Spore don't affect grass types and only one pokemon can be slept thanks to sleep clause. Attract as I mentioned is another shitty move that is almost equivalent to confusion in terms of its purpose except that it has a counterplay in the sense that it doesn't affect same gender pokemon. How do you not understand this? Imo, accuracy is mostly associated with the high risk high reward part, where you can choose moves like thunder to get a kill or you're screwed. Just because the meta is dominated by Snorlax doesn't mean that you have to go by that. 

 

14 minutes ago, Pythonhier said:

As I understand the desire not to have rng in a competitve game, however by the end of the day you just have to accept that's apart of the game you are choosing to play, and if you are not skilled enough to consider the chance of being hit by a status ailment within your strategy then it's on you for your loss.  Not the games.  "Blame the player not the game". Might I also add that every competive game has chance in it.

For fuck's sake this isn't about having no rng in a competitive game. It's about limiting the role rng has in deciding the outcome of a game. For someone who talks about not being skillful in assessing risk or probability management, tell me what's skillful about spamming a confusion inducing move?

 

18 minutes ago, Pythonhier said:

There is a reason for the hax items clause, and it's not cause of only RNG.  It's also apart of the fact that the items considered "hax items" give a sustantial boost to a specific strategy that is far too strong to have in a competive game. IF there was no counter to confusion then I could understand there being a ban on it, but there is a counter, and it's very easy to understand and utilize, so there is no reason to ban an entire status ailment cause people don't want to research strategy.

Okay, tell me what counterplay there is to confusion?

 

19 minutes ago, Pythonhier said:

 

That's not even remotely close to how META's work or develop.  I don't know what competitive games you been playing, but the meta is controlled by whatever the strongest strategy is and then how to counter it.  With buffs and debuffs to different areas that makes the strategy and counter - stronger or weaker.  Untill the counter, or a different counter becomes the strongest strategy, and then the development continues.

I'm not saying the meta isn't controlled or associated with Snorlax, but that doesn't mean that you HAVE to run it to win games. When people are innovative enough to find ways of winning without having to use Snorlax or finding innovative ways to beat it, that's when room opens up for more creativity. 

 

23 minutes ago, Pythonhier said:

There is a reason that Curse and Stall are the current meta, cause that is the strongest strategy the game currently offers with the least amount of strategy against it.  As the game only has a moderate amount of strategy when it comes to a small pool of types (EX; Fighting/Dark), and a heavily controlled structure of Pokemon you're allowed to use the ability to use roles such as sweepers, or bulkty sweepers becomes nearly impossible, with only a select few Pokemon being able to provide the role reletively well.  With such a small group of sweepers, and bulky sweepers you can use then it's easy to understand and counter those sweepers to ensure the stategys with Curse, and Stalling succed even more.  Without any kind of RNG from Paralysis, Sleep, Freeze, Burn, Poison, Accuracy, Field Hazzards, Abilities, Infactuation, Crticals, and Confusion (Please remind me of more), then this strategy will be considered to strong, and then even that will be considered to be banned, untill the Meta only becomes the weaker sweepers, and then it will just be whoever is faster.  Again I will mention understanding how to utilize the effects of dfiferent moves and how to counter them, is the strategy in Pokemon.  If you don't know how to counter something like Confusion, research it, and then you will only be a better player then you are currently.

Currently there aren't many strategies because people would rather copy than create something on their own. There are still a lot more strategies that haven't been used yet. Telling me to research how to counter confusion without offering any suggestions for it, legit. 

 

28 minutes ago, Pythonhier said:

There is a huge difference between ignorance, and using RNG to win.  How many people do you see running a Pokemon with Rapid Spin?  Not many.  Why?  Cause a majority of players in the game are not putting in the time to research, and strategize in the game to counter basic effects.  They all just run one or two hazzard Pokemon, setup in the first few turns (or not at all).  Run through other Pokemon to widdle down the opponents Pokemon using one Cleric to Heal Bell any permament status effects. Till landing on Curselax, or some sort of stall Pokemon to wipe the slate.
 

Most people don't run rapid spin because it isn't necessary on offensive teams, it basically has nothing to do with ignorance or rng.  At max you allow 2 layers to be set up and that can still be dealt with. Defense / Balance are what needs rapid spin / spikes because their ability to maintain the momentum is by continuously tanking hits and forcing the opponent to switch. That's why there's a saying that the longer the game goes on, the lower are the odds for an offensive team to win. I've probably never seen any Cleric in OU lately, so yeah please tell me what cleric you've been seeing lately. 

 

34 minutes ago, Pythonhier said:

So again.  If we keep banning every move that people who say "I lost a game, my opponent used x, ban it please" what will come to this game.  Will it even be Pokemon anymore?  If you wish I can find a hefty list of Facebook games that is exactly like Pokemon but doesn't have any status effects, or RNG based moves.  Unfortunatly a majority still use Critical, and Accuracy, but even the worlds largest most competivie online games utilize the RNG from Critcal, and Accuracy.

We don't fucking ban a move just because a person says "I lost a game because my opponent used x". We ban something if it's essentially broken, like baton pass because there's nothing that the other player can do about it except pray that they get a crit to break the chain. Please stop associating confusion with critical hits or non 100% accuracy moves. 

[Pythonhier]

47 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

At bolded part, no we can't. You claim to not be a jackass yet your posts say otherwise. How does causing confusion differentiate from freeze, paralysis, sleep, attract and accuracy? Freeze is a 10% chance and there's no direct move that causes a freeze, it's a secondary effect which can happen and we don't ban secondary effect. Also freeze status can be eliminated by switching into a fire type move. Spreading paralysis through thunderwave is a strategy because it helps walls cripple their opponent's sweepers. Sleep Powder / Spore don't affect grass types and only one pokemon can be slept thanks to sleep clause. Attract as I mentioned is another shitty move that is almost equivalent to confusion in terms of its purpose except that it has a counterplay in the sense that it doesn't affect same gender pokemon. How do you not understand this? Imo, accuracy is mostly associated with the high risk high reward part, where you can choose moves like thunder to get a kill or you're screwed. Just because the meta is dominated by Snorlax doesn't mean that you have to go by that. 

You know I never insulted you, so I see no reason for you to be insulting other people. That's a rude way to treat people, and a sign of weakness.

Freeze can be caused by; Blizzard, Ice Beam, Ice Punch, Powder Snow, Secret Power, and Tri Attack.  Mostly all 10% chance across the board with the exception of Secret Power  (30%) and Tri Attack (6.77%).  Take into the consideration the current meta because of the other bans we choose to make.  Any sweepers used in the meta are all special attack users, cause without any viable moves in the phsycial move pool we have little to no physcial sweepers that are not exclusive to OU.  So looking at Blizzard, Ice Beam, Powder Snow, Secret Power and Tri Attack.  Sure 10% isn't scary on four out of six of those moves, and Secrect Power won't get the effect cause competive battles is held on a normal enviroment, but when utilized it can be very deadly.  Racking an RNG of only 20% to defrost.  That number sounds oddly familiar.

Freeze can be healed by switching into a fire type move, so exactly how many fire type moves do you see used in the current meta?  That's right.  Almost none. Why? Cause all of the good fire type pokemon are not even viable.  Sweepers are not viable in the current meta, the only ones that are, are restricted to OU, as others dwindle without high enough base stats in comparison to the tankiness for base stats of tanks.  Then take into consideration the move pool in which you have for fire type moves, and there are not even enough moves to even be used by defensive pokemon.  Another thing to mention, probably the most important fact to consider is if your team is already running Ice based moves, the need for any fire type moves is almost obsolete when the primary use would be to gain a type advantage on Grass Types.  The only Bug types you are going to see is Scizor, and he seconds as a steel type.  So getting a type advantage on him is simply used by any ground type move.  If you are already running a curse stall pokemon, give it earthquake, and then there is nothing stopping you from freezing pokemon with Ice Punch if the need arises.

"Spreading paralysis through thunderwave is a strategy because it helps walls cripple their oppnent's sweepers".  How is this any different then the confusion method?  Sorry, Were taking a meta already dominated by walls, and tanks.  Where sweepers have little to no viability, and the only ones viable are Sp. Atk sweepers in OU.  So clearly the intelligent thing is that buffing the walls, and tanks with an RNG based strategy such as this, is the balanced thing to do?  I'll just let you sit on that for a bit.

Yeah good thing Sleep Powder and Spore don't effect grass types.  If only those were the only moves to cause sleep (Grass Whistle, Hypnosis, Lovely Kiss, Sing, Yawn).  Also if only there were grass types viable in the current meta that isn't just Exeggutor, who is restricted to OU... Oh right. We already see where i'm going with that.

Attract.  Oh boy, I just love how ignorant you are about Attract specifically in Pokemmo.

Pokemmo competitive is also dominated by it's economy, and that economy actually controls what gender you most often see in competive play.  That gender you see more often is Male.  Why? Cause Males go for a higher value on the market.  Why are males more expensive on the market?  Cause of perfectionist breeders looking for their own OT.  So when a Pokemon switches tier's, and a high amount of competive pokemon hit the market, Perfectionist breeders seek out the male Pokemon in various egg groups to make thier 6x31 natured original OT breed.  So when people breed competively, know what they are doing, breed them to most often be male so they sell high on the market, if and when the pokemon is no longer viable in the tier they were used.

What does this mean for attract?  Make a team of attract Pokemon, have four female, and two male. Then come back to me and tell me it's a useless strategy.

 

Quote

For fuck's sake this isn't about having no rng in a competitive game. It's about limiting the role rng has in deciding the outcome of a game. For someone who talks about not being skillful in assessing risk or probability management, tell me what's skillful about spamming a confusion inducing move?

It's not skillful, but I don't have an issue against it in competive, cause I make a team that takes being confused into consideration.  #BlameThePlayerNotTheGame.

 

Quote

Okay, tell me what counterplay there is to confusion?

There's switching out.  That's the easiest solution. Before you cry "But entry hazzards", or that they confuse the next pokemon you send in. Learn how to use rapid spin, and understand that sooner or later they will run out of PP.  Also take into consideration that you should have more then 1 pokemon to counter another pokemon on your team, that's the point of diversity.  This is the difference between skill, knowledge, and RNG.  Find out the other counters yourself, typically I enjoy having my edge in game knowing how to counter confusion.

 

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I'm not saying the meta isn't controlled or associated with Snorlax, but that doesn't mean that you HAVE to run it to win games. When people are innovative enough to find ways of winning without having to use Snorlax or finding innovative ways to beat it, that's when room opens up for more creativity. 

I actually completley agree with you here, it's about understanding the current meta, and learning how to counter the strongest strategies.  I do have a Snorlax on my OU team, but I also have two other pokemon that easily counter Snorlax.  I am just using Snorlax as an example since he is one of the strongest Pokemon in the current meta since he can Stall, and use the Curse strategy.

 

Quote

Currently there aren't many strategies because people would rather copy than create something on their own. There are still a lot more strategies that haven't been used yet. Telling me to research how to counter confusion without offering any suggestions for it, legit. 

Sorry but the fact of the matter is; If I came in here and gave everyone basic knowledge on how to counter status effects in Pokemon, then I would be only lessening my chances of winning the competitive scene.  I may not use Confusion, cause to be honest, confusion is one of the weakest stategies in the game when countered.  I know how to counter it, and so if I ever do see it I already have the upper hand on my opponent.  When a person sends out a Confusion based Crobat for example, and I counter it.  Then the game just turned into a 6 Pokemon VS 5 Pokemon.  That is incredibly good for my side.

 

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Most people don't run rapid spin because it isn't necessary on offensive teams, it basically has nothing to do with ignorance or rng.  At max you allow 2 layers to be set up and that can still be dealt with. Defense / Balance are what needs rapid spin / spikes because their ability to maintain the momentum is by continuously tanking hits and forcing the opponent to switch. That's why there's a saying that the longer the game goes on, the lower are the odds for an offensive team to win. I've probably never seen any Cleric in OU lately, so yeah please tell me what cleric you've been seeing lately.

I used Rapid spin as an example, cause earlier people tried to use "Entry Hazzards" as a defense to why switching Pokemon was not a viable reason to first counter confusion.  Really you just proved my point further by explaining why using entry hazzards is not very viable.  Though for me I run 1 Pokemon that can rapid spin, and create entry hazzards, or one that can rapid spin, and another that can create entry hazzards.  If the need ever arises that I need them.

 

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We don't fucking ban a move just because a person says "I lost a game because my opponent used x". We ban something if it's essentially broken, like baton pass because there's nothing that the other player can do about it except pray that they get a crit to break the chain. Please stop associating confusion with critical hits or non 100% accuracy moves. 

The only argument is that it's RNG based, if you argue something is RNG based they have to compare it to everything else in the game that is RNG based.  That is how balance works.  Baton Pass was the only thing stopping the meta from becoming stallmon.  As many people disagree since they never bothered to learn how to counter, or utilize Baton Pass.  It is the same sense.  Funny that I didn't even mention Baton Pass, but i'm happy you brought it up.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Pythonhier

[NikhilR]

49 minutes ago, Pythonhier said:

You know I never insulted you, so I see no reason for you to be insulting other people. That's a rude way to treat people, and a sign of weakness.
 

Sorry, I get triggered when I read dumb stuff.

 

49 minutes ago, Pythonhier said:

Freeze can be caused by; Blizzard, Ice Beam, Ice Punch, Powder Snow, Secret Power, and Tri Attack.  Mostly all 10% chance across the board with the exception of Secret Power  (30%) and Tri Attack (6.77%).  Take into the consideration the current meta because of the other bans we choose to make.  Any sweepers used in the meta are all special attack users, cause without any viable moves in the phsycial move pool we have little to no physcial sweepers that are not exclusive to OU.  So looking at Blizzard, Ice Beam, Powder Snow, Secret Power and Tri Attack.  Sure 10% isn't scary on four out of six of those moves, and Secrect Power won't get the effect cause competive battles is held on a normal enviroment, but when utilized it can be very deadly.  Racking an RNG of only 20% to defrost.  That number sounds oddly familiar.

I don't understand the point of this. No one's gonna use secret power or powder snow so what is the purpose of mentioning it? When freeze becomes an issue with secret power abusing it, we'll address it, until then no one cares about it. Just because freeze can be caused by 3-4 viable moves, a 10% chance of the secondary effect happening is alright. Ice moves are almost non existent in OU with the exception of hidden power ice. 

 

49 minutes ago, Pythonhier said:

Freeze can be healed by switching into a fire type move, so exactly how many fire type moves do you see used in the current meta?  That's right.  Almost none. Why? Cause all of the good fire type pokemon are not even viable.  Sweepers are not viable in the current meta, the only ones that are, are restricted to OU, as others dwindle without high enough base stats in comparison to the tankiness for base stats of tanks.  Then take into consideration the move pool in which you have for fire type moves, and there are not even enough moves to even be used by defensive pokemon.  Another thing to mention, probably the most important fact to consider is if your team is already running Ice based moves, the need for any fire type moves is almost obsolete when the primary use would be to gain a type advantage on Grass Types.  The only Bug types you are going to see is Scizor, and he seconds as a steel type.  So getting a type advantage on him is simply used by any ground type move.  If you are already running a curse stall pokemon, give it earthquake, and then there is nothing stopping you from freezing pokemon with Ice Punch if the need arises.

I'm getting triggered again by the ignorance in this post but I'll respond. It doesn't matter how many fire type moves are there, it's about how many pokemon even use it. First please specify what tier's meta you're referring to when you say that fire types are not viable. Arcanine, Blaziken and Charizard are all viable in OU and you have pokemon like Snorlax that uses fireblast. UU has Altaria, Slowking, Nidoqueen and Manectric that use flamethrower. NU has Camerupt, Magmar, Magcargo (only gbwead), Flareon, Rapidash and probably more since I'm just typing this all out on top of my head. Lmao at the bold part, firstly there have been a lot of venomoths and scythers in NU too and bug resists ground so how does running EQ give you an advantage over Scizor? Seriously, do you even know anything about our meta or even watched it?

 

49 minutes ago, Pythonhier said:

"Spreading paralysis through thunderwave is a strategy because it helps walls cripple their oppnent's sweepers".  How is this any different then the confusion method?  Sorry, Were taking a meta already dominated by walls, and tanks.  Where sweepers have little to no viability, and the only ones viable are Sp. Atk sweepers in OU.  So clearly the intelligent thing is that buffing the walls, and tanks with an RNG based strategy such as this, is the balanced thing to do?  I'll just let you sit on that for a bit.

Have you heard of something called usage stats?. Yes our meta is dominated by walls / tanks but that doesn't mean people don't run wallbreakers or physical sweepers. It's funny how you say that special attackers are the only viable sweepers when Snorlax is the top used pokemon, lmao. You have metagross, gyarados, heracross, blaziken all at above 15%. If our meta was solely dominated by walls, they wouldn't be seen. 

 

49 minutes ago, Pythonhier said:

Yeah good thing Sleep Powder and Spore don't effect grass types.  If only those were the only moves to cause sleep (Grass Whistle, Hypnosis, Lovely Kiss, Sing, Yawn).  Also if only there were grass types viable in the current meta that isn't just Exeggutor, who is restricted to OU... Oh right. We already see where i'm going with that.
 

Okay mods, you can give me a WP now because I'm going to call this guy a dumbass now. What pokemon do you see using grass whistle, hypnosis, lovely kiss, sing and yawn commonly? The only legit pokemon that uses lovely kiss is probably Jynx and moves like grass whistle and hypnosis have an accuracy of 55 and 60, why would you even use these moves? OU has Loom and Venusaur which have decent usage, UU has Vile, Exeggutor and NU has Bellossom, Tangela, Jumpluff and Tropius. 

 

49 minutes ago, Pythonhier said:

Attract.  Oh boy, I just love how ignorant you are about Attract specifically in Pokemmo.

Edited October 26, 2016 by NikhilR

[NikhilR]

Gonna double post cuz I hate forums. 

54 minutes ago, Pythonhier said:

Attract.  Oh boy, I just love how ignorant you are about Attract specifically in Pokemmo.

Pokemmo competitive is also dominated by it's economy, and that economy actually controls what gender you most often see in competive play.  That gender you see more often is Male.  Why? Cause Males go for a higher value on the market.  Why are males more expensive on the market?  Cause of perfectionist breeders looking for their own OT.  So when a Pokemon switches tier's, and a high amount of competive pokemon hit the market, Perfectionist breeders seek out the male Pokemon in various egg groups to make thier 6x31 natured original OT breed.  So when people breed competively, know what they are doing, breed them to most often be male so they sell high on the market, if and when the pokemon is no longer viable in the tier they were used.

Perfectionist breeders don't play comp regularly or I don't think most comp players buy their pokemon from these perfectionist breeders so not everyone uses this same approach. Also who even said males go for a higher value on the market? A comp is a comp irrespective of the gender. Males are more useful because they can act as a breeder while females are going to be more in demand or better if you want to pass egg moves (for those hopeful for when devs implement gen4). So yea, that's now how it works. I'm gonna laugh irl if I see someone do what you said. 

 

58 minutes ago, Pythonhier said:

It's not skillful, but I don't have an issue against it in competive, cause I make a team that takes being confused into consideration.  #BlameThePlayerNotTheGame.

Good for you bro, let me see your awesome teambuilding skills to know how you deal with confusion. 

 

1 hour ago, Pythonhier said:

There's switching out.  That's the easiest solution. Before you cry "But entry hazzards", or that they confuse the next pokemon you send in. Learn how to use rapid spin, and understand that sooner or later they will run out of PP.  Also take into consideration that you should have more then 1 pokemon to counter another pokemon on your team, that's the point of diversity.  This is the difference between skill, knowledge, and RNG.  Find out the other counters yourself, typically I enjoy having my edge in game knowing how to counter confusion.

When you confuse a pokemon, you attack the next turn irrespective of whether he switches out or not. Then when you take damage and want to heal,  he confuses you and you take on more damage if you hit yourself. This cycle repeats and this can be done without the use of entry hazards. Your diversity means fuck all when your "more than 1 pokemon to counter" can still lose to the confuse ray / swagger pokemon. 

 

1 hour ago, Pythonhier said:

Sorry but the fact of the matter is; If I came in here and gave everyone basic knowledge on how to counter status effects in Pokemon, then I would be only lessening my chances of winning the competitive scene.  I may not use Confusion, cause to be honest, confusion is one of the weakest stategies in the game when countered.  I know how to counter it, and so if I ever do see it I already have the upper hand on my opponent.  When a person sends out a Confusion based Crobat for example, and I counter it.  Then the game just turned into a 6 Pokemon VS 5 Pokemon.  That is incredibly good for my side.

So much knowledge, thanks. 

 

1 hour ago, Pythonhier said:

I used Rapid spin as an example, cause earlier people tried to use "Entry Hazzards" as a defense to why switching Pokemon was not a viable reason to first counter confusion.  Really you just proved my point further by explaining why using entry hazzards is not very viable.  Though for me I run 1 Pokemon that can rapid spin, and create entry hazzards, or one that can rapid spin, and another that can create entry hazzards.  If the need ever arises that I need them.
 

Offense teams will suffer this way thanks to confusion because it forces so much switching around and when combined with entry hazards, it's scary. Entry hazards wouldn't be an issue if not for confusion. It isn't the same as leech seed btw. 

 

1 hour ago, Pythonhier said:

The only argument is that it's RNG based, if you argue something is RNG based they have to compare it to everything else in the game that is RNG based.  That is how balance works.  Baton Pass was the only thing stopping the meta from becoming stallmon.  As many people disagree since they never bothered to learn how to counter, or utilize Baton Pass.  It is the same sense.  Funny that I didn't even mention Baton Pass, but i'm happy you brought it up.

It's a lot more RNG based and there really is no counterplay to it because the confusion user loses nothing by spamming those moves.

[Rendiz]

Getting away from the arguing for a minute would anyone be apposed to updating confusion to gen 7 mechanics when sun and moon comes out?

[DoubleJ]

The best argument to keep confusion is simply that banning it takes away from the canon of pokemmo when we relate it to pokemon. Without confusion based moves, are we still playing pokemon?

[CCMayhem]

I have been using SubSwagger Jask too great outcomes recently, good shit. Not really under the impression its OP though especially since it has kind of a huge risk v reward factor too it hugely desperate play imo

 

Edited October 27, 2016 by CCMayhem

[gbwead]

3 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

The best argument to keep confusion is simply that banning it takes away from the canon of pokemmo when we relate it to pokemon. Without confusion based moves, are we still playing pokemon?

Other arguments:

1. I question the feasability of such a ban. Confusion moves are decent on a few pokemons, but increadibly bad for the rest. Flat banning confusion is a hard sell since no confusion user is currently banned for being uncompetitive when using a confusion move.
    
2. The RNG from confusion moves is not necessarily uncompetitive. It is uncompetitive when confusion is spammed brainlessly. However, confusion in a stall duel with spikes could be used, so that a player gains momentum at some point and capitalize on that momentum to break through somehow. 
   Spoiler

   If someone uses Haunter (Substitute | Confuse Ray | Shadow Ball | Sludge Bomb) and if Spikes are on the field, this player could either use Substitute or Confuse Ray when Special wall Nidoqueen switches in. The Haunter will only be able to kill the Nidoqueen if the confusion procs, but if it doesn't proc the haunter can simply switch out and come back later - which is not that hard considering the amazing typing of Haunter. The Haunter player will most likely kill the opposing Nidoqueen at some point, but I would not call that uncompetitive RNG. In this case, it would simply be using the probability of RNG to one's avantage in the safest way possible.

    

   Obviously, the Haunter's moveset I just mentionned is not very good, but if someone thought this Haunter fits his strategy, it would be wrong imo to remove this option.

    

3. Confusion in general is a 50/50 coin flip that benefit the confused target way more than it benefit the confusion inducer. Using confusion repetitively actually decreases a player's winning condition throughout a duel.

 

[OrangeManiac]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

Other arguments:

1. I question the feasability of such a ban. Confusion moves are decent on a few pokemons, but increadibly bad for the rest. Flat banning confusion is a hard sell since no confusion user is currently banned for being uncompetitive when using a confusion move 

2.  

This is a very important and underaddressed point what comes to a move discussion. About 20 fully evolved Pokemon (many of them highly viable) learn Confuse Ray and at least 80% of all Pokemon can be tutored Swagger. Yet, Jolteon is basically one of the only Pokemon that people are upset about having this move and the rest are some individual very fast sweepers, like Crobat. I think there's much more sense to accept that these Pokemon just have the perfect circumstances running this move (their speed, lack of bulk and metagame around them) instead making the whole move sound way more broken than it actually is. It would be like flat banning Body Slam from all Pokemon because Snorlax abuses the fuck out of it and not concentrating on the Pokemon's actual power. If Jolteon spamming Swagger is 2strong for OU and Crobat in UU and can't be dealt with (top kek) then they won't belong in their respective tiers.

 

I know the counterargument for this is that "remove just RNG from comp battles as much as you can" but because of how much RNG affects the game it is very hard to touch these subjects without putting a certain standard regarding everything else. For example, if Confusion is banned it isn't a huge stretch to cause paralyz inducing moves to be banned. If you argue it's less bad, well, it's just you trying to set a limit.

 

Some Pokemon are just more RNG affecting than the others and that's how it goes. Serene Grace Pokemon by default cause more RNG to the match, set up sweepers can't get crit, Twave users secretly hope for free turns, sleep inducers hope for 3 free turns and some Pokemon just aren't RNG affected much at all. Why can't just admit Jolteon/Crobat has a very strong RNG effect on the metagame but realize it's not strong enough for you to being forced to use one or that it barely gives an advantage unless used against certain Pokemon. 

 

Also that Confuse Ray vs Nidoqueen example was perfect holy shit gb that kind of scenario I was thinking in my head when I talked about "maximizing your chances to win".

 

Edited October 27, 2016 by OrangeManiac

[NikhilR]

1 hour ago, OrangeManiac said:

This is a very important and underaddressed point what comes to a move discussion. About 20 fully evolved Pokemon (many of them highly viable) learn Confuse Ray and at least 80% of all Pokemon can be tutored Swagger. Yet, Jolteon is basically one of the only Pokemon that people are upset about having this move and the rest are some individual very fast sweepers, like Crobat. I think there's much more sense to accept that these Pokemon just have the perfect circumstances running this move (their speed, lack of bulk and metagame around them) instead making the whole move sound way more broken than it actually is. It would be like flat banning Body Slam from all Pokemon because Snorlax abuses the fuck out of it and not concentrating on the Pokemon's actual power. If Jolteon spamming Swagger is 2strong for OU and Crobat in UU and can't be dealt with (top kek) then they won't belong in their respective tiers.

 

I know the counterargument for this is that "remove just RNG from comp battles as much as you can" but because of how much RNG affects the game it is very hard to touch these subjects without putting a certain standard regarding everything else. For example, if Confusion is banned it isn't a huge stretch to cause paralyz inducing moves to be banned. If you argue it's less bad, well, it's just you trying to set a limit.

 

Some Pokemon are just more RNG affecting than the others and that's how it goes. Serene Grace Pokemon by default cause more RNG to the match, set up sweepers can't get crit, Twave users secretly hope for free turns, sleep inducers hope for 3 free turns and some Pokemon just aren't RNG affected much at all. Why can't just admit Jolteon/Crobat has a very strong RNG effect on the metagame but realize it's not strong enough for you to being forced to use one or that it barely gives an advantage unless used against certain Pokemon. 

 

Also that Confuse Ray vs Nidoqueen example was perfect holy shit gb that kind of scenario I was thinking in my head when I talked about "maximizing your chances to win".

 

The issue is that more and more people might suddenly start to follow in this trend of abusing confusion to get free turns. I don't think body slam and confusion inducing moves are comparable because their purpose is different. Lax prefers to spam body slam to put on dmg while also spreading paralysis in order to be able to outspeed its check / counter whereas the confusion inducing move is mostly to grant a free turn when you have no other option. I don't think Jolt spamming swagger is too strong, it's more uncompetitive because it's the ONLY chance of the Jolt user winning against the spdef wall. Either things go your way (like Walpayer vs Kevola) and you get an undeserved victory or things don't (Walpayer vs Axoa) . This basically turns the whole process into an rngfest. Bluebreath earlier mentioned an example of Electabuzz beating an spdef Raichu with swagger. Instead of finding other ways to beat standard spdef walls, people are choosing a more rng associated approach. That's not healthy. 

 

There's difference again between paralysis inducing moves like thunderwave compared to confusion. Status boosts defense of pokemon like Milotic, twave can't affect an already statused pokemon, twave can boost manectric's spak or give health boost to jolteon / lanturn and above all, twave has immunities. Like this there are ways a person can play around twave but there's no proper way to play around confusion. I agree with you when you say it's me trying to set a limit but isn't that why we have the hax items clause?

 

The problem arises when you associate confusion with other status effects or abilities and they aren't the same. Serene Grace is considered to be broken or annoying on pokemon like Jirachi because of the rng associated with iron head flinch and that's probably the closest I'd match to being banworthy because I'm sure that if we ever implemented this in MMO, I'd push for its ban. So many matches have been decided by Jirachi's hax and while it's the user playing to his abilities to boost his chances to win. there isn't much the opponent can do when Jirachi spreads paralysis to be able to flinch pokemon faster than it AND increase its chances to flinch (70% if I'm right). SG is less broken on Blissey / Togetic because of how most of the metagame outspeeds them or they have coverage issues where they can't dent the other pokemon. I'll try out dunsparce and see how it does just for the lols. 

[gbwead]

10 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

The issue is that more and more people might suddenly start to follow in this trend of abusing confusion to get free turns. I don't think body slam and confusion inducing moves are comparable because their purpose is different. Lax prefers to spam body slam to put on dmg while also spreading paralysis in order to be able to outspeed its check / counter whereas the confusion inducing move is mostly to grant a free turn when you have no other option. I don't think Jolt spamming swagger is too strong, it's more uncompetitive because it's the ONLY chance of the Jolt user winning against the spdef wall. Either things go your way (like Walpayer vs Kevola) and you get an undeserved victory or things don't (Walpayer vs Axoa) . This basically turns the whole process into an rngfest. Bluebreath earlier mentioned an example of Electabuzz beating an spdef Raichu with swagger. Instead of finding other ways to beat standard spdef walls, people are choosing a more rng associated approach. That's not healthy. 

 

There's difference again between paralysis inducing moves like thunderwave compared to confusion. Status boosts defense of pokemon like Milotic, twave can't affect an already statused pokemon, twave can boost manectric's spak or give health boost to jolteon / lanturn and above all, twave has immunities. Like this there are ways a person can play around twave but there's no proper way to play around confusion. I agree with you when you say it's me trying to set a limit but isn't that why we have the hax items clause?

 

The problem arises when you associate confusion with other status effects or abilities and they aren't the same. Serene Grace is considered to be broken or annoying on pokemon like Jirachi because of the rng associated with iron head flinch and that's probably the closest I'd match to being banworthy because I'm sure that if we ever implemented this in MMO, I'd push for its ban. So many matches have been decided by Jirachi's hax and while it's the user playing to his abilities to boost his chances to win. there isn't much the opponent can do when Jirachi spreads paralysis to be able to flinch pokemon faster than it AND increase its chances to flinch (70% if I'm right). SG is less broken on Blissey / Togetic because of how most of the metagame outspeeds them or they have coverage issues where they can't dent the other pokemon. I'll try out dunsparce and see how it does just for the lols. 

I get that offense can't handle confusion as well as stall and I agree that it is unhealthy in the cases of Jolteon and Electabuzz (Subsitute + confusion), but that doesn't make confusion inherently unhealthy. Dusclops Confuse Ray is just so bad.

 

Hypothetically, what would a confusion clause look like if we wanted to limit ONLY what is unhealthy? What would be the moves affected by this clause? How would they be affected? In what tiers would that clause be active? 

[NikhilR]

20 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I get that offense can't handle confusion as well as stall and I agree that it is unhealthy in the cases of Jolteon and Electabuzz (Subsitute + confusion), but that doesn't make confusion inherently unhealthy. Dusclops Confuse Ray is just so bad.

 

Hypothetically, what would a confusion clause look like if we wanted to limit ONLY what is unhealthy? What would be the moves affected by this clause? How would they be affected? In what tiers would that clause be active? 

I feel that it is the faster pokemon that abuse confusion to a higher degree. Walls can't abuse confusion so much because even if the confused user does get hit, it isn't major damage since pokemon like dusclops generally don't have much offense other than seismic toss. 

 

I think a confusion clause would be better if we could apply it on pokemon with a certain base speed. 

Edited October 27, 2016 by NikhilR

[gbwead]

5 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

I think a confusion clause would be better if we could apply it on pokemon with a certain base speed. 

This certain base speed would vary from tier to tier and this base speed would constantly be subjected to changes whenever we see usage movements. It is also somewhat arbitrary which can lead to multiple mistakes. In the past, I have seen a lot of pokemons with different base speed use swagger or confuse ray. On top of my head, I can remember Jolteon, Crobat, Sceptile, Starmie, Tauros, Misterhide horrendous Manectric, Typhlosion, Houndoom, Lanturn, Umbreon,Lapras,  Zebra's Teether Dance Vileplume kek and Dusclops. I don't think it is realistically possible to determine a cut off point.

[XPLOZ]

19 minutes ago, gbwead said:

This certain base speed would vary from tier to tier and this base speed would constantly be subjected to changes whenever we see usage movements. It is also somewhat arbitrary which can lead to multiple mistakes. In the past, I have seen a lot of pokemons with different base speed use swagger or confuse ray. On top of my head, I can remember Jolteon, Crobat, Sceptile, Starmie, Tauros, Misterhide horrendous Manectric, Typhlosion, Houndoom, Lanturn, Umbreon,Lapras,  Zebra's Teether Dance Vileplume kek and Dusclops. I don't think it is realistically possible to determine a cut off point.

You forgot Ludicolo teether dance.

 

nuub

[gbwead]

1 minute ago, XPLOZ said:

You forgot Ludicolo teether dance.

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

nuub

 

In doubles tho, but ya.

Spoiler

Who u callin nub? Get your ass back in game, so I can coach you to some wins finale losses.

 

Edited October 27, 2016 by gbwead

[LuisPocho]

On 27/10/2016 at 2:52 AM, DoubleJ said:

The best argument to keep confusion is simply that banning it takes away from the canon of pokemmo when we relate it to pokemon. Without confusion based moves, are we still playing pokemon?

pokemon is boring, pokemmo is fun!