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Confusion thread


Tyrone

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21 minutes ago, KaynineXL said:

I don't know if Nikhil ever did say "Confusion is MUCH more dangerous than Twave" but from what I saw, he was trying to point out Confusion is much more RNG reliant than Twave which is obviously true. The reason most people use Twave is to decrease that Pokemons speed, that alone cripples like all offensive Pokemon that aren't immune. Confuse ray on the other hand, literally all can do is try and hax you, it doesn't do anything else.

 

The fact that Twave has 25% hax chance where as Confuse ray has a 50% hax rate plays a big role in this comparison as well, that's a pretty huge difference.

I just don't think you can compare Twave with Confuse ray at all.

I mean, they're both considered status conditions and fall under the same category on the effect they give, comparing them is the only thing you can do with them.

 

But yeah, I get you Nik, and I really wish everyone thought about RNG the same way you did, with your kind of mindset, but there's always gonna be people abusing RNG to get wins, and as much as Confuse ray aids to that, so do other moves, which is why I said it'd open up a lot more doors that'd better stay the way they are. 

Just for the sake of more replying, I remember this team where someone literally went #1 on OU ladder with 5/6 of his mons abusing swagger, because he just could and probably had nothing better to do.

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Twave litterally cut's your speed, and stops you from attacking, and you can't cure it by switching out.  Confuse ray can only stop you from attacking dealing damage to yourself, and gets cured when you switch out.  Giving it a 50% chance rather then a 25% chance sounds like a compensation for the fact you can just cure it by switching out.  Which is a huge bonus.  If the pokemon confuses you again, switch again.  Easy peasy.  Sooner or later he will run out of pp if his only goal is to keep confusing you or give up.

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12 minutes ago, Pythonhier said:

Twave litterally cut's your speed, and stops you from attacking, and you can't cure it by switching out.  Confuse ray can only stop you from attacking dealing damage to yourself, and gets cured when you switch out.  Giving it a 50% chance rather then a 25% chance sounds like a compensation for the fact you can just cure it by switching out.  Which is a huge bonus.  If the pokemon confuses you again, switch again.  Easy peasy.  Sooner or later he will run out of pp if his only goal is to keep confusing you or give up.

Okay let me put it this way, let alphabets denote party members of one player and numbers in the other. 

 

Pokemon A - the one that spams the confusion inducing move

Pokemon 1 - the only pokemon that can beat A

Pokemon 2 - a pokemon that can't touch A but you need healthy to deal with pokemon B

 

If A keeps spamming confusion moves which affect 1, then if you switch to something like 2, then he has no reason to spam confusion and instead will go for the attack and could end up attacking 1. This is just an example to just show that switching isn't a reliable way to deal with confusion because in order for it to work, you need to have other switch ins which don't get damaged by A. In my case it was a Crobat which spammed Sludge Bomb + Super Fang. 

Edited by NikhilR
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  • 3 weeks later...
On 27/09/2016 at 9:12 PM, Pythonhier said:

Twave litterally cut's your speed, and stops you from attacking, and you can't cure it by switching out.  Confuse ray can only stop you from attacking dealing damage to yourself, and gets cured when you switch out.  Giving it a 50% chance rather then a 25% chance sounds like a compensation for the fact you can just cure it by switching out.  Which is a huge bonus.  If the pokemon confuses you again, switch again.  Easy peasy.  Sooner or later he will run out of pp if his only goal is to keep confusing you or give up.

Someone obviously doesn´t know about entry hazards.

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17 hours ago, Kizhaz said:

If we wait long enough, Sun and Moon reduced Confusion to a 33% chance rather than 50% to hit yourself. Along with Para only halving your speed rather than quartering it. If it is received well in the Sun and Moon meta we could suggest it to be changed here

Also twave has 90% accuracy instead of 100%

 

18 hours ago, suigin said:

Ban it. Garbage mechanic that allows even the shittiest of players to gain free turns or force switches at little to no cost. It's more uncompetitive than Baton Pass, doesn't reward planning or skill, all it does is turn games into coin tosses.

I mean, I've seen good bpass teams that actually require some skill, but you can easily make a bp team that requires little to no skill, yet pays off with a most probable 6-0. Para/confusion, as annoying as they are, have a bit more to it than just pass around boosts up until your one, or two receivers get to the point where they go "I'll fuck anything in my way go fuck yourself".

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ban swagger its uncompetitive, if ya dont ban it unban focus band quick claw n all that shitty items for nabs just like swagger

 

force rng to happen and faster pokes like jolt manec or electrode abuse of it since can get free turns (+damage) for hit or switch

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On 21/10/2016 at 8:30 PM, Spaintakula said:

I mean, I've seen good bpass teams that actually require some skill, but you can easily make a bp team that requires little to no skill, yet pays off with a most probable 6-0.

Post one that'd work in Pokemmo.

The only reason why BP got banned (And even then it just got a complex ban) in Smogon because Denissss made a hermetically perfect team that would handle even teams entirely designed around countering it. Keep in mind in gen 6 there's more tools to work with (Fairy type, Scolipede, Stored Power, Magic Bounce, Quiver Dance), back in gen 3 Baton Pass was never banned because it was never an issue. But enough of that this isn't about Baton Pass it's about confusion.

 

Confusion (I'm specifically talking about Confuse Ray and Swagger) basically allows someone to randomly gain free turns by leaving the game in the hands of chance.

 

Paralysis is infamous for doing the same thing, but the chances of gaining a free turn are 25% instead of 50%. Also an entire type is immune to it and each of the most common inducing methods have at least one extra type immune to it ( Thunder Wave-Ground, Body Slam-Ghost, Stun Spore (I've never seen anyone use this but whatever)-Grass) meaning it has plenty of switch ins depending on the method used.

 

Sleep also earns a random amount of free turns, but it's regulated by sleep clause, and most sleep inducing moves have pretty awful accuracy (The only exception is Spore which is useless against grass types and used by three specific Pokemon at most).

 

Meanwhile confusion earns completely random amount of free turns for a completely random amount of time, and has very few Pokemon immune to it such as Slowbro, Slowking, Ludicolo, Smeargle and Grumpig if I'm generous.

One free turn can safely turn a game around by either making a hard hitter hit itself in confusion severely damaging itself either KOing or putting itself in KO range for a lot of things, or gaining a safe switch into something else or a safe set up. All of this is is caused by moves with either 100% or 90% accuracy and no specific types immune to them. Switching out is a solution, but also a free turn gained for the opponent, and depending on the situation the confused Pokemon may not be in the position to switch out, which basically forces it to pray that it won't hit itself in confusion.

 It is not the most reliable strategy to win but neither is Double Team spam yet this strategy got also banned for being too luck based (while also having some shoddy counterplay).

Baton Pass may arguably be "cheap" and "skill-less", but it takes at least two turns to pull off and lets the opposing player react accordingly with their counter-strategy. Confusion is a one turn wonder that de-evolves any strategy into a chance based praying game and on top of that it's spammable as hell due to uncommon immunities.

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4 hours ago, suigin said:

Post one that'd work in Pokemmo.

The only reason why BP got banned (And even then it just got a complex ban) in Smogon because Denissss made a hermetically perfect team that would handle even teams entirely designed around countering it. Keep in mind in gen 6 there's more tools to work with (Fairy type, Scolipede, Stored Power, Magic Bounce, Quiver Dance), back in gen 3 Baton Pass was never banned because it was never an issue. But enough of that this isn't about Baton Pass it's about confusion.

 

Confusion (I'm specifically talking about Confuse Ray and Swagger) basically allows someone to randomly gain free turns by leaving the game in the hands of chance.

 

Paralysis is infamous for doing the same thing, but the chances of gaining a free turn are 25% instead of 50%. Also an entire type is immune to it and each of the most common inducing methods have at least one extra type immune to it ( Thunder Wave-Ground, Body Slam-Ghost, Stun Spore (I've never seen anyone use this but whatever)-Grass) meaning it has plenty of switch ins depending on the method used.

 

Sleep also earns a random amount of free turns, but it's regulated by sleep clause, and most sleep inducing moves have pretty awful accuracy (The only exception is Spore which is useless against grass types and used by three specific Pokemon at most).

 

Meanwhile confusion earns completely random amount of free turns for a completely random amount of time, and has very few Pokemon immune to it such as Slowbro, Slowking, Ludicolo, Smeargle and Grumpig if I'm generous.

One free turn can safely turn a game around by either making a hard hitter hit itself in confusion severely damaging itself either KOing or putting itself in KO range for a lot of things, or gaining a safe switch into something else or a safe set up. All of this is is caused by moves with either 100% or 90% accuracy and no specific types immune to them. Switching out is a solution, but also a free turn gained for the opponent, and depending on the situation the confused Pokemon may not be in the position to switch out, which basically forces it to pray that it won't hit itself in confusion.

 It is not the most reliable strategy to win but neither is Double Team spam yet this strategy got also banned for being too luck based (while also having some shoddy counterplay).

Baton Pass may arguably be "cheap" and "skill-less", but it takes at least two turns to pull off and lets the opposing player react accordingly with their counter-strategy. Confusion is a one turn wonder that de-evolves any strategy into a chance based praying game and on top of that it's spammable as hell due to uncommon immunities.

Post a baton pass strat that'd work in MMO? You don't even need a strat in the first place for it to "work". Dry baton passes from a mon with already fast speed is enough for momentum to build up. We have ninjask, so there's another reason how baton pass would be already even more annoying. Also idk how you're talking about gen3 and smogon, since there's this small fun core that doesn't let you be phazed all that easily, if at all. (bar haze maybe a tiny bit) Try looking up that replay from psl this week.

Either way, off-topic, but you said gen3 smogon;

For the confusion, "one free turn can safely turn a game around"???

Let's see, bpass +2 speed from anything to something that's slow and hard hitting, and there you have a powerhouse out of nowhere waiting to shit on something. And +2 speed isn't that hard, it doesn't even need a dedicated bpass team for it to be transfered.

 

Now this is where it gets a lot more reasons on why it's cancer. I'd be cool with the first. Dedicated bp teams, no matter if gen3 or mmo, are/will be a thing. We still have the same pokemon, and, it's actually easier seeing how we don't have access to legendaries and the ubers, making it way less of a problem for baton pass chains to be executed, offense-wise.

Meaning, getting something to +2 speed and an additional boost to their perspective (sp)attack stat would naturally mean it's something to be aware of. And by aware of, I mean it's something more dangerous than 1 turn of confusion hit on yourself.

 

Idek where I'm going with this, but yeah

 

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13 hours ago, Erayne said:

Sorry for previous post but i think it was a bug. I just wanted to ask: can someone explain why we can't just have a "confuse clause"? 

It's kinda similar to why we don't have an accuracy clause either, sand attack can make a match more rng based however you can simply rid the effects by switching out, same goes for confusion.

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3 hours ago, BlackJovi said:

Whoever watched those Community Combat OU #4 finals, giantpipe vs xXPere, can agree that swagger is completely pooped and skillless. There shouldn't even be a discussion. 

Swagger was used in conjonction with Substitute once again. It was also used to break a Snorlax core which only shows that uncompetitive Jolteon is pretty decent in our uncompetitive lax meta.

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6 hours ago, Kizhaz said:

It's kinda similar to why we don't have an accuracy clause either, sand attack can make a match more rng based however you can simply rid the effects by switching out, same goes for confusion.

What I meant was: if we're not coming to a conclusion, why don't we just make a clause and make everyone happy?

Like "confusion inducing moves can't be used more than once every x turns".

Who would disagree? And why would he/she?

 

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when u loose to crobats use slowkings :3

i disagree because u determine ur own way of playing as the only one. completly destroying diversity in the meta, which isnt great at all at the moment but u guys want to go on because your straight forward tactics aren´t that successful against it.

Deal with it, maybe build ur own competive set arround confuseray?

 

Just no, dont clause,ban, ecetera everything when little kids cry. Its competive ...be so.

Edited by BudsBender
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52 minutes ago, BudsBender said:

when u loose to crobats use slowkings :3

i disagree because u determine ur own way of playing as the only one. completly destroying diversity in the meta, which isnt great at all at the moment but u guys want to go on because your straight forward tactics aren´t that successful against it.

Deal with it, maybe build ur own competive set arround confuseray?

 

Just no, dont clause,ban, ecetera everything when little kids cry. Its competive ...be so.

Spoiler

not sure if just another troll or another self proclaimed expert like the previous one who claimed that Snorlax isn't op because it's weak to fighting

Okay, let me re-phrase of what you want to say:

Disabling confusion hax from the game destroys the diversity is practically your only argument. Thing is, throwing everything into hands of RNG is not really a strategy- I would rather call it a desperation for a player who has no skills whatsoever and relies completly on luck to score a win. Another thing is, confuse ray/ swagger hardly provide any diversity in the meta as well.

 

Tell me please, where is strategy in this (this is a live example from my own experience):

I have a CB Armaldo out. My opponet has a Crobat out and a Quagsire too in his team, full HP. Instead of switching to Quagsire as a safe switch to counter my Armaldo, he decides to stay in with Crobat and confuse rays me.

 

I could understand somewhat, somehow, if the confuse-inducing moves would be used in conjunction with spikes to force switches and cause spike damage, I could also understand if my opponet would stay with Crobat because he did not have a single switch to Armaldo to take a CB Rock Blast. But I've been a witness (and a victim sometimes) when players were just brainlessly throwing everything into hands of RNG- I saw Jolteons using swagger on Snorlax when they weren't even behind the sub and I have my own Crobat example. It's a competitive game with elements of lottery, not a complete lottery and another nerfs in the RNG mechanics in future generation only prove my point.

 

To add a bit more- probably from pokemon game developers themselves, heh- confusion is about to get nerfed in next generation from 50 to 33% chance to hit yourself, which imo sums up the whole uncompetitiveness of the status

 

E:

 

About my own example of crobat vs Armaldo- the guy did it twice and second time it backfired, because Armaldo hit through confusion and killed the crobat. ;v)

Edited by RysPicz
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46 minutes ago, BudsBender said:

when u loose to crobats use slowkings :3

i disagree because u determine ur own way of playing as the only one. completly destroying diversity in the meta, which isnt great at all at the moment but u guys want to go on because your straight forward tactics aren´t that successful against it.

Deal with it, maybe build ur own competive set arround confuseray?

 

Just no, dont clause,ban, ecetera everything when little kids cry. Its competive ...be so.

1. About determining your own way as the only one...what? That's exactly why there is a tier discussion thread accessible to everybody and a tier council made of different people.

 

2. You say everybody should use slowking to counter confusion and then you say banning or "clauseing" it would destroy diversity...lol

 

3. "It's competitive...be so." Best reason ever

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LOLs.

 

What is bad about a slowbro or slowking? when ur so skilled players chances to have one in team are pretty high. Switch in or stay with your armaldo if u feel fine and take the win, why u cy?

Explain me where, there is no skill, if someone would win some torunaments with a confusion set in it?

Just because its dmg ratio is lowerd in future, doenst say its uncompetive. Just says it had to be balanced due the changes in the game it had through the process and the effect was quiet old i guess and maybe bit overpowerd. But the sense of it isn´t about luck. There are cardgameprofessionals.

Could you please accept that there are players out there that wanna play different strategies?

In my example, ill took myself. I would like to see more pokemons viable to each Tier. So This Crobat in your example wouldnt exist in meta, if confuse ray would be banned. Or well it would be ha hard nerf for alot of these utility pokemons.

And " i dont like to play against it" or "these players are not Entalligent!" is all you say here. You also loose vs normal Players because you are bad or u got parahax right? When you loose vs Crobat he had only luckhax...kiddd. RNG is not completly random, if you guys would at least inform yourself u would know that u can have an influence on it, says: the bigger the influence u make the bigger skill u have. Simply said.

 

But it is like dat. We work with da mechanics behind the scenes... maybe dumbs ( like the dumbs hatin them) try to copy and then rely completly on luck. For me it was one of the most interesting things, when i was getting in comp. playing pokemmo. So no wonder, i would tend to build my team about mechanics i mostly like and im mostly into. From that i can say, its not luck but a nice thing just like your playstyle... So if u more like other strategies make your team that way but consider others not following your path, so that you got something in reserve for them. Like I DO WHEN I PLAN MY ODD TEAMS :)

 

By the way, yes i see a big strength in confuse that it hasn´t to adapt alot to different teamsets, BUT it also can´t do that and being as effiecently as others when they adapt to meta. So Considering so many pokemons available but seriously speaking, the counters to confusion are real and enough to not let it determine the meta as YOU feel when Crobat shits on your armaldo because its fucking slow.

Edited by BudsBender
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