Confusion thread

[Thunderprime]

It may be scary to rest with snorlax but it takes a wish easy

[NikhilR]

10 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

To me using a move like Confuse Ray/Swagger sounds way more 'competitive' because that was your actual intended play you wanted to do your to your opponent. Getting random lucky side effect from attack is what seems really luck based to me compared to actual intentions from your moves.

So fishing for hax is = competitive for you? I mean the same reason people use Sand Veil Gliscor instead of Hyper Cutter is to avoid being hit, so I'd take it that you consider Sand Veil + Snow Cloak, non ban worthy?

Edited September 16, 2016 by NikhilR

[OrangeManiac]

1 minute ago, Gunthug said:

This is a complete mischaracterization of what we want our metagame to look like.

Who are the "we" here? The community? The Tierlist council? The staff? I most sincerely hope you meant all of those three or we have some serious problems with our tiering. Also saying that confusion based moves makes the entire game about hax just isn't true, I really don't think you wrote that meaning literally but it sure as heck looks like you just did.

[Gunthug]

18 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

Who are the "we" here? The community? The Tierlist council? The staff? I most sincerely hope you meant all of those three or we have some serious problems with our tiering. Also saying that confusion based moves makes the entire game about hax just isn't true, I really don't think you wrote that meaning literally but it sure as heck looks like you just did.

It was the royal we. And read my statement again, I said confusion inflicting moves like swagger have the potential to turn the game into a coin flip, which as you stated, is the sole intention of the user. This is something that other communities have generally tried to discourage. That's not to say that we're bound by those decisions or even that this situation here is as bad or worse, it's just the foundation of our discussion 

[Senile]

so I'm seeing a lot of people talk about SwagPlay like it's exactly the same thing as subswagger, and I'm here to say it's not.

 

So, the first thing, SwagPlay is called SwagPlay because half of the strategy is, in fact, Foul Play. Yes, Swagger is what was ultimately banned, but that was only because they determined that keeping it around wasn't really something they cared about, banning Foul Play/Prankster isn't desirable since they're pretty legitimate and commonly used, and they'd rather not throw in a complex ban.

However, the reason it was banned wasn't because of Confusion RNG, or just Swagger's increased self-damage to the opponent, but because of the way Swagger attack boosts work with Foul Play. Heavy attackers would often get 2, or even OHKO'd by a boosted Foul Play, and it's not like they can outspeed the Swagger regardless of how fast they are. Even walls can take heavy damage after a few Swaggers, making it exceptionally dangerous. Sure, you can switch out to get rid of the boosts, but they're just slowly whittling down your whole team with Paras and Foul Play damage while staring down a Klefki which is still at half HP, and your opponent has 5 other pokemon.

 

Foul Play being thrown in is the biggest part of what made SwagPlay actually threatening; Without it, sure, it can do a lot of recoil damage to your Charizard-X or Tyranitar, but honestly, at that point there's a lot more you can switch in that doesn't particularly care about a little bit of recoil damage and a para. Foul Play gives the Swagger+Prankster pokemon a tool that can actually damage and pressure the opponent, instead of just passively sitting there while the enemy wastes turns and wins the eventual PP stall. That's also the reason Jolteon is even remotely viable with SubSwagger right now, because it can actually put on some legitimate pressure in addition to using Sub Swagger to do some damage to Snorlax, potentially even scaring it away. Which is also why I find this discussion a bit ridiculous; SubSwagger is only being used because it's very effective against a very common answer (Snorlax) to a very specific threat (Jolteon). If it weren't for Snorlax, it wouldn't be anywhere close to viable.

 

Confusion isn't inherently banworthy, because it is definitely possible to play around/against it; Of course, if you're relying on Snorlax as an answer to Jolteon and then find out it's carrying SubSwagger and you get completely shit on, yeah, it's very easy to feel like it's pure RNG bullshit you can't do anything about. But, honestly, all it says to me is that you shouldn't be relying on Snorlax to answer Jolteon anymore, because it is no longer a reliable answer. What's a SubSwagger Jolteon going to do to a Chansey? A Gardevoir? A whole lot of nothing. SubSwagger Jolteon's shenanigans isn't anywhere near as universally obnoxious as SwagPlay was at fucking with pretty much everything, because there's actually pretty viable pokemon that can completely shut it down.

 

Also, of course, there was more than one pokemon that actually abused SwagPlay when it was banned.

[Gunthug]

8 minutes ago, Senile said:

so I'm seeing a lot of people talk about SwagPlay like it's exactly the same thing as subswagger, and I'm here to say it's not.

 

So, the first thing, SwagPlay is called SwagPlay because half of the strategy is, in fact, Foul Play. Yes, Swagger is what was ultimately banned, but that was only because they determined that keeping it around wasn't really something they cared about, banning Foul Play/Prankster isn't desirable since they're pretty legitimate and commonly used, and they'd rather not throw in a complex ban.

However, the reason it was banned wasn't because of Confusion RNG, or just Swagger's increased self-damage to the opponent, but because of the way Swagger attack boosts work with Foul Play. Heavy attackers would often get 2, or even OHKO'd by a boosted Foul Play, and it's not like they can outspeed the Swagger regardless of how fast they are. Even walls can take heavy damage after a few Swaggers, making it exceptionally dangerous. Sure, you can switch out to get rid of the boosts, but they're just slowly whittling down your whole team with Paras and Foul Play damage while staring down a Klefki which is still at half HP, and your opponent has 5 other pokemon.

 

Foul Play being thrown in is the biggest part of what made SwagPlay actually threatening; Without it, sure, it can do a lot of recoil damage to your Charizard-X or Tyranitar, but honestly, at that point there's a lot more you can switch in that doesn't particularly care about a little bit of recoil damage and a para. Foul Play gives the Swagger+Prankster pokemon a tool that can actually damage and pressure the opponent, instead of just passively sitting there while the enemy wastes turns and wins the eventual PP stall. That's also the reason Jolteon is even remotely viable with SubSwagger right now, because it can actually put on some legitimate pressure in addition to using Sub Swagger to do some damage to Snorlax, potentially even scaring it away. Which is also why I find this discussion a bit ridiculous; SubSwagger is only being used because it's very effective against a very common answer (Snorlax) to a very specific threat (Jolteon). If it weren't for Snorlax, it wouldn't be anywhere close to viable.

 

Confusion isn't inherently banworthy, because it is definitely possible to play around/against it; Of course, if you're relying on Snorlax as an answer to Jolteon and then find out it's carrying SubSwagger and you get completely shit on, yeah, it's very easy to feel like it's pure RNG bullshit you can't do anything about. But, honestly, all it says to me is that you shouldn't be relying on Snorlax to answer Jolteon anymore, because it is no longer a reliable answer. What's a SubSwagger Jolteon going to do to a Chansey? A Gardevoir? A whole lot of nothing. SubSwagger Jolteon's shenanigans isn't anywhere near as universally obnoxious as SwagPlay was at fucking with pretty much everything, because there's actually pretty viable pokemon that can completely shut it down.

 

Also, of course, there was more than one pokemon that actually abused SwagPlay when it was banned.

Good points aside, I haven't seen anyone claim that swagplay is the same as subswag. I only linked the swagplay discussion because there's 72 pages of discussion, much of which is centered around the age old question of "what makes something uncompetitive?" And not necessarily foul play's ability to exacerbate swagger 

 

sadly I'm only on about page 6 of the discussion and there's a lot of fucking morons posting in there to sift through, which is why I am still on the fence about the particulars of our issue here 

 

e: to add one more thing, you know damn well how slow our meta is to evolve and explore new options. So the mere fact that jolteon is the only poke abusing subswagger in ou right now does not rule out the potential for more Pokemon to adopt the strategy successfully (seems crobat is beginning to see some sub/fusion play in UU too) 

Edited September 16, 2016 by Gunthug

[Senile]

7 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

Good points aside, I haven't seen anyone claim that swagplay is the same as subswag. I only linked the swagplay discussion because there's 72 pages of discussion, much of which is centered around the age old question of "what makes something uncompetitive?" And not necessarily foul play's ability to exacerbate swagger 

 

sadly I'm only on about page 6 of the discussion and there's a lot of fucking morons posting in there to sift through, which is why I am still on the fence about the particulars of our issue here 

 

e: to add one more thing, you know damn well how slow our meta is to evolve and explore new options. So the mere fact that jolteon is the only poke abusing subswagger in ou right now does not rule out the potential for more Pokemon to adopt the strategy successfully (seems crobat is beginning to see some sub/fusion play in UU too) 

I mean, JJ did make an entire post comparing Jolteon to Prankster Swagger, but yknow

 

Anyway, the meta might be slow, but it's not like Swagger just got added to the game, it's been around for literally years, and after all this time, there's only one pokemon just starting to abuse it. (Although, SubSwagger Jolteon has been used as a gimmick every now and then iirc); After all this time, before anyone tries to do anything to adapt to the threat, people want an entire move (and from the looks of things, now 2 in Confuse Ray too) banned under the pretense that they MIGHT be used on more pokemon later maybe? It's not like these are new moves that need to be handled with kid gloves and we need to preemptively deal with or else; They've been around for a ridiculously long time with no real problem. Yeah, I know this is just a discussion thread and it's not like anything is going to happen, but honestly, even having a discussion thread at this point is, imo, waaaaaay too preemptive.

 

But beyond Swagger being around 5ever, yeah, the meta is slow to evolve, but that also means there hasn't been enough time for anyone to even try and adapt to the fact SubSwagger Jolteon is a threat. The metagame taking a long time to evolve goes both ways, and there's definitely been more time for Swagger/Confuse Ray to become prevalent than there has been for people to adapt to deal with them.

[Gunthug]

12 minutes ago, Senile said:

 

  Hide contents

I mean, JJ did make an entire post comparing Jolteon to Prankster Swagger, but yknow

 

 

Anyway, the meta might be slow, but it's not like Swagger just got added to the game, it's been around for literally years, and after all this time, there's only one pokemon just starting to abuse it. (Although, SubSwagger Jolteon has been used as a gimmick every now and then iirc); After all this time, before anyone tries to do anything to adapt to the threat, people want an entire move (and from the looks of things, now 2 in Confuse Ray too) banned under the pretense that they MIGHT be used on more pokemon later maybe? It's not like these are new moves that need to be handled with kid gloves and we need to preemptively deal with or else; They've been around for a ridiculously long time with no real problem. Yeah, I know this is just a discussion thread and it's not like anything is going to happen, but honestly, even having a discussion thread at this point is, imo, waaaaaay too preemptive.

 

But beyond Swagger being around 5ever, yeah, the meta is slow to evolve, but that also means there hasn't been enough time for anyone to even try and adapt to the fact SubSwagger Jolteon is a threat. The metagame taking a long time to evolve goes both ways, and there's definitely been more time for Swagger/Confuse Ray to become prevalent than there has been for people to adapt to deal with them.

Lol well I didn't read that post because he posted it 5 seconds before I posted and >mobile version. But fair point

 

And yeah yeah the slow to adapt argument cuts both ways. I don't think there's any harm in having this discussion, but I'm inclined to agree with you that maybe we're focusing on symptoms rather than the root of the problem 

[gbwead]

1 hour ago, DoubleJ said:

When utilized by Jolteon, Swagger imitates being used by a pokemon with the ability Prankster. There are very few viable options that can outspeed Jolteon and avoid being struck by Swagger in the first place. This list includes only pokemon with a Choice Scarf (Swift Band) that are currently being used, such as Flygon, Heracross, and Starmie. This speed factor is reminiscent of the ability Prankster which provides priority to non-attacking moves, thus the fastest viable pokemon in our OU metagame would negate the necessity of an ability such as Prankster since it already outspeeds "everything". Back to those three common scarf users though, each are incredibly weak to Jolteon. Two of which are OHKO'd and the other is absolutely crippled by Thunderbolt. To make this worse, Jolteon typically forces an immediate switch when it comes in safely, providing an opportunity for a Substitute which further hinders Scarf users from even wanting to face Jolteon. 

 

Other more natural counters to Jolteon, such as Snorlax, Chansey, Porygon2, and Gardevoir are all slower and thus susceptible to Swagger. Fortunately, of those four only Snorlax is truly threatened by the +2 attack boost and 40bp self-damaging move that occurs roughly 50% of the time. The other three are appropriate counters to this set, but unfortunately currently lack viability since Chansey is readily removed by Trapinch, Gardevoir is readily removed by Houndoom, and Porygon2 suffers from being anything more than a glorified pivot. 

 

Another option was stated to break Swagger and that is simply to PP stall the move itself with switching. Now that would be dandy if it wasn't being used by a nuke of an offensive weapon in Jolteon which will safely sit behind a Substitute as you repetitively switch in and out. The only pokemon that can safely do this are Gardevoir, Chansey, and Porygon2, in conjunction with one another, due to the ability Trace and Chansey's incredible Special Defense. Snorlax has trouble with this tactic without instant recovery and also due to the risk of hitting itself with Swagger, should it attempt to stay in and Rest. Swagger also happens to be a 24 PP move. 

 

Now as stated, Swagger is a move that can change the momentum of the game in an incredible way. What I have been eluding to this entire time is that Swagger simply forces switches, placing you at a significant disadvantage. Scenarios include having your special wall trapped by Trapinch, having an offensive weapon hit by a powerful attack by Jolteon, or inflicting damage upon yourself with a sharply boosted 40bp physical attack. Each option comes with significant risk. 

All this Swagger talk only applies to Jolteon. Based on everything you said, there is a good case to prove that Jolteon is uncompetitive in our current OU metagame. However, Swagger being uncompetitive on Jolteon doesn't necessarily make Swagger, as a move, banworthy. All of this is simply too specific to Jolteon's niche in OU. As of now, I am not convinced there is any other pokemon that can truly benefit from a Swagger strategy like Jolteon. On what pokemon is it worth it to drop 2 moves just to give a shot at haxing the opponent? I heard Sceptile could pull it off and yet I haven't seen a single one of  those yet. The level of haxing required for the Swagger strategy to work is just too high on other pokemons than Jolteon. They don't have the right tools and coverage to pressure the opponent. Confusion is really nothing more than something you can hope for 

 

 

[DoubleJ]

22 minutes ago, gbwead said:

All this Swagger talk only applies to Jolteon. Based on everything you said, there is a good case to prove that Jolteon is uncompetitive in our current OU metagame. However, Swagger being uncompetitive on Jolteon doesn't necessarily make Swagger, as a move, banworthy. All of this is simply too specific to Jolteon's niche in OU. As of now, I am not convinced there is any other pokemon that can truly benefit from a Swagger strategy like Jolteon. On what pokemon is it worth it to drop 2 moves just to give a shot at haxing the opponent? I heard Sceptile could pull it off and yet I haven't seen a single one of  those yet. The level of haxing required for the Swagger strategy to work is just too high on other pokemons than Jolteon. They don't have the right tools and coverage to pressure the opponent. Confusion is really nothing more than something you can hope for 

 

 

And as I said before, without anything currently in practice (outside of a Confuse Ray + Toxic Crobat) it's hard to prove any point against your argument for a complete ban other than the fact we have never been in favor of a complex ban, well excluding that one time with Curselax. So with that in mind, I focused my argument to the level you wanted it, which was to show how uncompetitive Swagger + Substitute is on Jolteon in our current OU meta.

[NikhilR]

How does one even deal with confusion? It isn't something that you prepare for when teambuilding because it's hardly used even though it has existed for a long time. No one used to consider using swagger / confuse way when teambuilding because people focus more into building an efficient team rather than slapping on a move which makes things 50/50. I prefer swagger / confuse ray being banned on the premise of being uncompetitive, not with respect to how many other pokemon could potentially abuse it.. When people come up with different sets, new things could be found to be ban worthy. Some things like Breloom+Hera can abuse sub-swagger with focus punch. Bar Chansey, P2 and Gardevoir, things like Venusaur / Swampert / Umbreon wouldn't be able to deal with Sub / Swag Jolteon, so it's not like it succeeds vs Lax alone. 

Edited September 16, 2016 by NikhilR

[gbwead]

7 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

And as I said before, without anything currently in practice (outside of a Confuse Ray + Toxic Crobat) it's hard to prove any point against your argument for a complete ban other than the fact we have never been in favor of a complex ban, well excluding that one time with Curselax. So with that in mind, I focused my argument to the level you wanted it, which was to show how uncompetitive Swagger + Substitute is on Jolteon in our current OU meta.

I'm sorry for my post. I was falling asleep as I was typing it and I guess I accidently clicked "Submit Reply" during the night. I was trying to say that if something would be done at this point, it would be banning Jolteon and not Swagger. I am personally not ready to take such a decision.

 

7 hours ago, NikhilR said:

How does one even deal with confusion? It isn't something that you prepare for when teambuilding because it's hardly used even though it has existed for a long time. No one used to consider using swagger / confuse way when teambuilding because people focus more into building an efficient team rather than slapping on a move which makes things 50/50. I prefer swagger / confuse ray being banned on the premise of being uncompetitive, not with respect to how many other pokemon could potentially abuse it.. When people come up with different sets, new things could be found to be ban worthy. Some things like Breloom+Hera can abuse sub-swagger with focus punch. Bar Chansey, P2 and Gardevoir, things like Venusaur / Swampert / Umbreon wouldn't be able to deal with Sub / Swag Jolteon, so it's not like it succeeds vs Lax alone. 

I think you are overestimating the uncompetitiveness of confusion moves. Using them is usually a high risk, low reward strategy. If Breloom does Swagger on an Arcanine that switches in, it could miss. If the Swagger doesn't miss and the Breloom then goes for Focus Punch, it risks dying to Flamethrower while Arcanine doesn't risk dying by staying. Confusion strategies are last resort strategies because they are rarely worth using. Breloom has 17% chance to kill the Arcanine with this strategy. How many duels have we all seen where Aerodactyl manages to steal a win thanks to a timely 27% flinch on a Slowbro? This happens all the time and it is really just part of the game. It sucks, I can't deny that, but it is what it is. 

 

As for Jolteon Sub/Swagger, we are starting to see people run Hyper Voice Jolteon and that is imo a good indication that the meta is trying to adapt to this kind of strategy. The main problem is really the confusion move plus the Substitute; the confusion move user is usually risking its life for a 50/50 or 45/55 chance of gaining momentum which is hardly worth it without Substitute. If people run Substitute + Swagger, this implies that they have only 2 coverage moves. Beside Jolteon, what pokemon can get perfect coverage from only 2 coverage moves? I don't think there is one tbh. If there is one, its 2 coverage moves most likely don't put as much pressure than Tbolt/HP Jolteon.

 

[SirYurop]

The difference between swagger/c ray to waterfall/rs/b slam etc, is that forces RNG situations, u cant control when ur gyara gonna flinch but w sub swager jolt/trode fishing for a confuse hit its pretty easy.

 

there are other pokes who can abuse swagger w counter and instarecover

 

Like i said in the ou thread the problem aint the confuse it self its the +2 associated w swagger so ban c ray is go to far imo

[SirYurop]

Only counter i can find to this is  send scarf jolly breelom on sub and then bullet seed and needs to have the sub down

 

Lf more

[fredrichnietze]

2 minutes ago, SirYurop said:

Only counter i can find to this is  send scarf jolly breelom on sub and then bullet seed and needs to have the sub down

 

Lf more

breloom is 70 base speed so you need 252 speed jolly to beat jolteon meaning your bullet seed is so weak you need 4 hits to probably kill and 5 to guarantee. odds are you get 2-3 and jolteon lives.

and ofc if you are running 252 speed/att jolly.

252 SpA Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 108-128 (79.4 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 140-166 (102.9 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Bullet_Seed_(move)

 

TL:DR more rng 

[Thunderprime]

Annyone tryied whirlwind on snorlax? Works good haha

[xilias]

3 minutes ago, Thunderprime said:

Annyone tryied whirlwind on snorlax? Works good haha

Tried it,and nope it sucks,you either wreck yourself by the confusion,or just get the jolteon out and he'll just come back later.

[SirYurop]

Yep forgot to mention than breloom relys on rng... jolteon its at 88% hp at max too since sub swagger must run lefties...hp ice counters...

 

Still lf more solid COUNTERS

[XPLOZ]

Did someone say confusion ?

 

 

Just play every pokemon with a lum berry. Problem solved, lock this thread pls. (10/10 pleb argumentation)

[pachima]

1 hour ago, SirYurop said:

Yep forgot to mention than breloom relys on rng... jolteon its at 88% hp at max too since sub swagger must run lefties...hp ice counters...

 

Still lf more solid COUNTERS

Snatch/magic coat. Too ez. Rip Confusion. Hail forgotten moves.

[NikhilR]

6 hours ago, gbwead said:

As for Jolteon Sub/Swagger, we are starting to see people run Hyper Voice Jolteon and that is imo a good indication that the meta is trying to adapt to this kind of strategy. The main problem is really the confusion move plus the Substitute; the confusion move user is usually risking its life for a 50/50 or 45/55 chance of gaining momentum which is hardly worth it without Substitute. If people run Substitute + Swagger, this implies that they have only 2 coverage moves. Beside Jolteon, what pokemon can get perfect coverage from only 2 coverage moves? I don't think there is one tbh. If there is one, its 2 coverage moves most likely don't put as much pressure than Tbolt/HP Jolteon.

 

Idk who runs hyper voice Jolteon gb, but I doubt it's that viable (could be wrong nonetheless). 2 coverage moves is enough actually if it hand you a large amount of momentum. Heracross + Breloom have decent coverage with their stabs and it allows them to pressure their counters like Weezing / Arcanine / Skarmory to a huge extent.

 

--------------------------------------------------------

 

Some points:

1) Swagger is not usually taken into consideration when teambuilding because people create strategies to win 80% or 90% of the time while this does only 50%, so really it's not even a win con.

2) There is no counter play to swagger / confuse ray.

3) Several players like myself, DoubleJ and Schuchty have lost to players abusing this "strategy" to come out victorious from a situation they should've lost. 

4) Even if it's a shitty "strategy" as some people might consider it, that doesn't mean it can't work and when it does, there is no strategy or skill behind it. 

5) When swagger is used, any and all skill is basically taken away and things become a gamble. Is "gambling > strategizing " the way we want our metagame to be?

 

Again I'll remind the community of what happened to me a couple of days ago, I had a 20% CB Azumarill + 100% Specs Haunter + 100% healhy spdef Cradily + 100% healthy physically def Exeggutor + 100% healthy DD Altaria vs my opponent's Confuse Ray Physical Crobat, Specs Manectric and Wish / Protect / Toxic / Seismic Clefable. That was a matchup I should've definitely won and his only way out from the losing situation was to get all those confusion hits from Crobat, and that was his best play without a doubt. The question is do we give the losing player a 50% chance of coming out of this hole by using a strategy that solely relies on RNG and completely nullifies everything that the more skillful player has done. Is that an element of competitive play and is it something that we want? 

 

This here is mostly a note to all the jackasses that compare confusion to other status effects, or say that "RNG is a part of the game, so accept it"  or say that "Pokemon is a game of rng, if you don't like it then go play something else" : We can't ban crits, burns, freezes or enforce 100% move accuracy on all moves, but we can ban moves whose primary effect is to cause confusion because as I mentioned, all it does is decide the game by RNG. It's stupid to keep things in the game which do nothing but amplify the role of rng and at the same time while banning it basically has no negative impact on the metagame. There's a reason why there is a hax items clause (for those plebs who've done no comp and still like to post in comp alley pretending like they know something, have a read https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/37764-official-pokemmo-list-of-clauses-updated-with-tournament-mode-clauses/ ) and even that has more "strategy" behind it than using confuse ray / swagger. 

 

TLDR:

1) Is it healthy for the game currently?
2) Is there any argument FOR keeping it in the game?
3) Does its ban negatively impact the game?

 

I feel like those are the questions that need to be addressed.

[gbwead]

15 hours ago, NikhilR said:

Idk who runs hyper voice Jolteon gb, but I doubt it's that viable (could be wrong nonetheless). 2 coverage moves is enough actually if it hand you a large amount of momentum. Heracross + Breloom have decent coverage with their stabs and it allows them to pressure their counters like Weezing / Arcanine / Skarmory to a huge extent.

I think it is important for this discussion to evaluate mathematically this extent that you consider huge. Does using a confusion move increase a player's winning condition? If yes, by how much? Is the potentially improved winning condition of the confusion move user significantly better than the winning condition that comes of regular haxing from an equivalent viable pokemon? For instance, a non SD Tentacruel can't really beat a Kanga 1v1 without haxing ^with some Ice Beam freeze or some timely crits. Is Swagger Tentacruel more likely to beat Kangaskhan than Ice Beam Tentacruel? If yes, what was the cost of choosing Swagger over another move? 

There is a lot to take into consideration when evaluating this extent and I honnestly doubt the extent is that big.

 

15 hours ago, NikhilR said:

Again I'll remind the community of what happened to me a couple of days ago, I had a 20% CB Azumarill + 100% Specs Haunter + 100% healhy spdef Cradily + 100% healthy physically def Exeggutor + 100% healthy DD Altaria vs my opponent's Confuse Ray Physical Crobat, Specs Manectric and Wish / Protect / Toxic / Seismic Clefable. That was a matchup I should've definitely won and his only way out from the losing situation was to get all those confusion hits from Crobat, and that was his best play without a doubt. The question is do we give the losing player a 50% chance of coming out of this hole by using a strategy that solely relies on RNG and completely nullifies everything that the more skillful player has done. Is that an element of competitive play and is it something that we want? 

I completly disagree with this. The losing player did not have 50% chance of coming out of that duel as the winner. Considering the plays you made and the plays he made, VadimEmpoleon had 0.88% chance of winning which is negligeable. When someone uses Confuse Ray, this person doesn't have 50% chance of winning the duel. This person have 50% chance of winning the turn and could possibly gain some momentum at best.

 

When someone is spamming Confuse Ray, we are talking by definition of multiple events. In the natural course of a duel, the pokemon using a confusion move is usually using that confusion move against a counter. If I am facing a Gyarados, if my current pokemon can't deal with it, I should naturally switch in a pokemon that can. If Gyarados uses Swagger on the pokemon that switches in (Ludicolo, Milotic, Vaporeon, Gyarados, Porygon2, ...), what is the Swagger Gyarados really going to accomplish beside maybe haxing me a little? Even though the odds are 50/50 per turn, my Gyarados counter will gain way more by winning the 50/50 than the Gyarados could ever hope for.

 

Overall, the more a confusion move is spammed, the more likely it will be that the two players win an equivalent number of 50/50. However, since winning a 50/50 is usually not as beneficial for the confusion move spammer than it is for the non confusion move spammer, the confusion move spammer will usually be on the losing end if that strategy is used.

 

When the confusion move is paired with Substitute, everything changes. Perhaps, this combo is uncompetitive, but using a confusion move by itself is hardly broken imo.

 

15 hours ago, NikhilR said:

This here is mostly a note to all the jackasses that compare confusion to other status effects, or say that "RNG is a part of the game, so accept it"  or say that "Pokemon is a game of rng, if you don't like it then go play something else" : We can't ban crits, burns, freezes or enforce 100% move accuracy on all moves, but we can ban moves whose primary effect is to cause confusion because as I mentioned, all it does is decide the game by RNG. It's stupid to keep things in the game which do nothing but amplify the role of rng and at the same time while banning it basically has no negative impact on the metagame. There's a reason why there is a hax items clause (for those plebs who've done no comp and still like to post in comp alley pretending like they know something, have a read https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/37764-official-pokemmo-list-of-clauses-updated-with-tournament-mode-clauses/ ) and even that has more "strategy" behind it than using confuse ray / swagger. 

Well said.

 

15 hours ago, NikhilR said:

1) Is it healthy for the game currently?
2) Is there any argument FOR keeping it in the game?
3) Does its ban negatively impact the game?

 

I feel like those are the questions that need to be addressed.

I'll propose an answer for question 2. When something gets banned, some elements of gameplay are removed and the options given to players are therefore limited artificially. In the grand scheme of things, each ban simplifies the competitive scene and brings the players closer to a rock/paper/scissors game. I am exagerating a bit, but I think pretty much everyone agrees that bans should be avoided as much as possible. The fact that there might not be an apparent argument for keeping the confusion moves in the game is not a valid reason for a ban. 

 

 

Edit: If someone knows exactly how the confusion mechanic works, I think it would be important to explain the details here. How many turns does it last? How does confusion fades over time? The first step of this discussion should be to make sure everyone works with the same information. If someone wants to test the confusion mechanic in PokeMMO, I am available ^^

Edited September 18, 2016 by gbwead

[RysPicz]

18 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Edit: If someone knows exactly how the confusion mechanic works, I think it would be important to explain the details here. How many turns does it last? How does confusion fades over time? The first step of this discussion should be to make sure everyone works with the same information. If someone wants to test the confusion mechanic in PokeMMO, I am available ^^

 

Confusion

 

The confused condition causes a Pokémon to hurt itself in its confusion 50% of the time. The damage is done as if the Pokémon attacked itself with a 40-power typeless physical attack (without the possibility of a critical hit).

Confusion wears off after 1-4 attacking turns. This means that turns recharging, such as after using Hyper Beam, and turns unable to attack, such as from paralysis, will not lower the remaining number of turns of confusion. However, a sleeping Pokémon may hurt itself in confusion if using a move such as Snore or Sleep Talk. Multi-turn attacks such as Fly and Dive require confusion to be checked both turns, further reducing the chance of a successful attack.

 

 

Pokémon with the Own Tempo Ability are immune to being confused. Confusion can be cured with Persim Berries, Touga Berries, the Yellow Flute, and, Generation II onwards, items that cure all status conditions such as Full Heals and Lum Berries; it is the only volatile status condition to be able to be cured by items that heal all status conditions.

 

E:
Thuglifed from bulbapedia

 

Edited September 17, 2016 by RysPicz

[gbwead]

1 minute ago, RysPicz said:

Confusion wears off after 1-4 attacking turns. This means that turns recharging, such as after using Hyper Beam, and turns unable to attack, such as from paralysis, will not lower the remaining number of turns of confusion. However, a sleeping Pokémon may hurt itself in confusion if using a move such as Snore or Sleep Talk. Multi-turn attacks such as Fly and Dive require confusion to be checked both turns, further reducing the chance of a successful attack.

So, if a pokemon uses Rest but doesn't use Sleep Talk or Snore, its confusion counter won't go down?

 

[RysPicz]

Just now, gbwead said:

So, if a pokemon uses Rest but doesn't use Sleep Talk or Snore, its confusion counter won't go down?

 

Judging from the info from bulbapedia, nope. To break the confusion apparently you have to... well, be lucky. It seems like confusion turns the battle into a haxfest- you need to avoid confusion damage from one to 4 times, while being confused, to actually snap out of it