[OU Discussion] Snorlax [Test banned]

[gbwead]

Just now, Gunthug said:

There's another very prominent member of the community who is suggesting a Curse complex ban in this very thread - not to mention we've already had a past complex ban of curse (albeit in a different metagame). Doesn't that pretty much put snorlax in the same conversation as ttar, mence, dnite, blissey? Ie: We could talk all day about which move/ability we should ban, which is shifting the conversation away from where it SHOULD be - Is the pokemon unhealthy/overly centralizing?

A Curse complex ban on Snorlax makes Snorlax less powerful. A Rest complex ban on Snorlax also makes Snorlax less powerful. Curselax is also a Restlax when you think about it. The reason why I feel complex banning is rarely a good solution is because it is nearly impossible to isolate what is problematic. A Body Slam complex ban is not like a Curse/Rest complex ban. Complex banning Body Slam doesn't really make Snorlax less powerful, it makes Snorlax more competitive and this is the bottom line that matters imo.

[RysPicz]

1 hour ago, Thunderprime said:

I just want to bring an idea: dugtrio

Why could we not give this little dude a try, it would fix so many problems. Blaziken too op? Punished. Not fair for chansey or herracross? Now there is shed hull and choice scarf. And finally snorlax would be punished for 90% of his movesets. Also dugtrio is easy to counter back by pursuit as well.

No. Dugtrio is uncompetitive. Amount of pokes it can just simply kill is unbeliveable, plus Dugtrio can get just whirlwinded out. It would not solve the Snorlax problem and make OU even more cancerous as it is right now. We should not bring one broken poke to seemingly balance the meta with another broken mon.

13 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

4) Disable has only 8 pp, so it's nothing something that will last long. Also with its paper thin defensives, it's easily pursuit trapped by something like tauros or maybe scarf hera.

? Disable has 20pp, pp maxed it's 32 I think

 

9 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

Is the pokemon overly centralizing?

Sorry Gunt, I'll be rude and respond with a quote of my own, pls don't scold me

On 16.08.2016 at 1:11 AM, RysPicz said:

Snorlax pushes the meta to a degree where it reminds me of... watch out, VGC16.

You gotta bring Lax. Then you bring a hard check for lax that can take any of it's attacks- Skarmory. Then you gotta take Starmie for spinning the spikes out because of Skarm. Then you have to bring something that can actually threaten Lax- Meta, Flygon or Heracross work fine. We could use like 2 more checks for Snorlax here and something for Heracross, hey let's take Rhydon and Weezing.

There you go- Lax, Skarm, Star, Meta or Hera or Flygon, Weezing, Rhydon. Probably the most common and one of most generic teams you can see. Those pokes are everywhere and they are there mainly because of Snorlax.

  Reveal hidden contents

To compare, in VGC you build your team this way usually:

You take Xerneas and Smeargle.

Then, you gotta take the Xerneas check. At least 2.

So you take Mega Kanga and Primal Groudon. You got your 2 legend slots filled. You need more Xerneas checks.

Talonflame works and along with Mega Kanga it helps with Smeargle.

Last slot is your amount of creativity!

There, your VGC16 team is ready.

OU leaves no place for innovation at all anymore because of Lax. I realise that Snorlax isn't offensive uber or defensive uber and only way it'd get the boot is that fucking uncomfortable "unhealthy" characteristic which is highly subjective, but facts are facts. Snorlax climbed the usage to the top in barely 2 months. A lot of players did not even have a Snorlax back then when it got unbanned (including myself).

 

[Laz]

10 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

1) A lax as an spdef wall only (without curse) is definitely less scarier because it won't be able to sweep (unless sub lax) and can get revenge killed easier.

That's what i'm suggesting again, and toxic / whirlwind can wreck slowbro 

 

2) Milo is sort of a solid answer with haze, but I feel surf / hp elec / toxic / recover milo would be a better set,

Surf/ Haze/ Hp elec / Recover can work too, elec to take out Gyara, and haze elec to take out slowbro.

 

Weezing unfortunately suffers a lot more because of lack of coverage for other pokes and gets parahaxed really easily and hence won't be able to stop lax. 

in a 1v1, Weezing can stall lax all day with Haze and Pain split, Dusclops can do just the same, run crunch and i'll switch to skarmory that has sub and i can sub / whirlwind, scouted tho.

 

4) Disable has only 8 pp, so it's nothing something that will last long. Also with its paper thin defensives, it's easily pursuit trapped by something like tauros or maybe scarf hera. 
Sub, disable, mean look, perish song
 

 

[gbwead]

Just now, NikhilR said:

Yes it is :)

I agree that it is as well. However, when we look at a potential ban, I believe the protocole is to determine if the pokemon fits an UBER characteristics, then determine if the pokemon or something about the pokemon is uncompetitive and then as a last resort determine if the pokemon or something about the pokemon is unhealthy. 

Test banning Snorlax for being unhealthy is the easy way out when Snorlax could be banned for being uncompetitive.

[Laz]

3 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Test banning Snorlax for being unhealthy is the easy way out when Snorlax could be banned for being uncompetitive.

Say welcome to a trapping meta with 4 fast special sweepers.

[RysPicz]

1 minute ago, Lazaro23 said:

Say welcome to a trapping meta with 4 fast special sweepers.

People will just carry 2 special walls instead of one.

Also give me back my fucking diglett

[gbwead]

Just now, Lazaro23 said:

Say welcome to a trapping meta with 4 fast special sweepers.

No worries I will participate in this traping fest with a Houndoom and perhaps a Cradily of yours would help me handle these sweepers xD 

 

If you want to talk more about the health of the OU metagame, lets do it. What are the special sweepers you are refering to? I am sure they can still be stopped.

[KaynineXL]

I'v skipped through a lot of comments because I'm lazy to ready through them all.

 

The way is see it, while there are a lot of valid points such as it sets a bad precedent for future tiering decisions.. But here's why I feel like a complex ban on Body slam isn't so bad and why it should be done to lax but not for others(like ttar).

 

So while Snorlax is here, right now I feel like it's probably borderline uncompetitive, but yeh... Body slam is more than likely the root cause of it. If it went, I really wouldn't care. If we were to ban Snorlax all that would happen is Chansey would replace it, does that really fix the problem? We've still got another cancerous wall that in my opinion just makes the meta even less diverse and way more trap reliant for special attackers to do literally anything at all. If Body slam was to be complex banned I think Snorlax would still be the most dominant special wall, it's still hitting hard(even harder), it's still very diverse and can hit pretty much everything but fortunately we won't have to worry about that unforgiving para hax, that said, we should see a rise in Chansey users and that would be interesting because we've never really had an OU meta where two special walls both had a decent chance to fight for the most dominant special wall(except maybe the calm ludi/venu/umbreon times).

 

I say go for that complex ban and see what happens.

 

Edit: To make myself clearer, I'm trying to say complex bans should be a last resort thing, and something done to help the meta as a whole. While we don't have a ghost type to switch on Body slam, and only to have another flat blob Chansey to take Snorlax's place if Snorlax was to be banned I feel like Body slam ban would meet in the middle and resolve the cancerous part about lax. In contrast with things like Ttar, what would complex banning a move on those do, other than allowing us to use one extra Pokemon? I hope you understand my point, not sure if I made it clear.

Edited August 18, 2016 by KaynineXL

[Laz]

3 minutes ago, gbwead said:

No worries I will participate in this traping fest with a Houndoom and perhaps a Cradily of yours would help me handle these sweepers xD 

 

If you want to talk more about the health of the OU metagame, lets do it. What are the special sweepers you are refering to? I am sure they can still be stopped.

252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Surf vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Umbreon: 69-82 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- 53.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Porygon2: 76-91 (39.5 - 47.3%) -- 97.3% chance to 2HKO after 3 layers of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Espeon Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Umbreon: 104-124 (51.4 - 61.3%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Umbreon: 110-130 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Porygon2: 115-136 (59.8 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

 

[xilias]

59 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

 

The biggest issue with lax is not knowing what set it is and that brings out so many mindgames. This means you generally have to run 2 answers for it, one for a safe switch in to body slam or cursed lax, and the other has a revenge killer. While parahax is a uguu, I'm more inclined to removing curse than body slam because a lax with return would hit like a truck. While lax does make body slam more powerful, curse makes lax all the more powerful. If curse isn't gonna be complex banned, then I'd go for banning Lax.  

Actually I think the problem with lax isn't that it is strong or that it can spam curse ,it's just the fact that once lax is in the field,all it does is spamming body slam hoping for the para,if your opponent switches to something that can OHKO it(CBanders/hera) you'll just outspeed it and 2HKO it because of the para or switch out and wait for the occasion to come again and hax his ass,and if he switches to something that can take damage well(weezing/skar/dusc),it just can't punish you because of the bulk and you can either curse or do wathever you want.but once slam isn't there,switching on to stuff that can deal with lax will be easier,because finding a cure to pure and crippling power is much easier than finding the cure for RNG itself,imo it's the parahax that makes curse set on lax viable,not the other way around .

ps: forgive my linguistic mistakes cuz English is my 3rd language.  

[gbwead]

23 minutes ago, Lazaro23 said:

252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Surf vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Umbreon: 69-82 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- 53.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Porygon2: 76-91 (39.5 - 47.3%) -- 97.3% chance to 2HKO after 3 layers of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Espeon Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Umbreon: 104-124 (51.4 - 61.3%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Umbreon: 110-130 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Porygon2: 115-136 (59.8 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Choice Spec Starmie is locked on a move, so I don't see it as sweeper. If a 252 spatk Choice Spec Starmie is not even close to 2hko a non fully invested Umbreon, I really don't see it as an overwhelming threat:

 

252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ludicolo: 70-84 (37.4 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic: 86-102 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gardevoir: 67-81 (38.2 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

We might have a Cacturne come back if Starmie becomes too much of a threath ^^

 

As for the calm minders, they are indeed very threathening. They are nevertheless not unstopabble. Arcanine Crunch + Espeed. Umbreon Wish (life orb dmg) + Bite/Pursuit can handle those. Haze Miltotic can stop them. They are also stopped by several RK and mostly Aerodactyl. 

 

There is no way to know for sure if these threaths would be prominent in a Laxless meta or if these counters would be used. Only a test can put to rest any doubt concerning a laxless meta.

 

 

 

[Laz]

31 minutes ago, xilias said:

Once slam isn't there,switching on to stuff that can deal with lax will be easier,because finding a cure to pure and crippling power is much easier than finding the cure for RNG itself,imo it's the parahax that makes curse set on lax viable,not the other way around .

+1 76 Atk Snorlax Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 148-175 (95.4 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

+1 76 Atk Snorlax Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 114-136 (63.3 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 76 Atk Snorlax Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 114-136 (53.7 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Rhydon Superpower vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 124-146 (47.8 - 56.3%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 76-91 (29.3 - 35.1%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

You guys want snorlax banned, well just ban it, it's better than a complex body slam ban, because it makes no sense, since curse is the move that should be banned, and that was banned way before introducing the gen4 items.

[Laz]

18 minutes ago, gbwead said:

 

Let's argue about this once a decision is made, too soon to argue 

[BlackJovi]

The way I see it banning body slam takes the uncompetitiveness (or however u write this) out of snorlax, and then it becomes a special wall with some offensive pressence compared to chansey, which is not that bad imo. I'm all for a body slam ban 

[KaynineXL]

20 minutes ago, Lazaro23 said:

+1 76 Atk Snorlax Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 148-175 (95.4 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

+1 76 Atk Snorlax Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 114-136 (63.3 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 76 Atk Snorlax Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 114-136 (53.7 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Rhydon Superpower vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 124-146 (47.8 - 56.3%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 76-91 (29.3 - 35.1%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

You guys want snorlax banned, well just ban it, it's better than a complex body slam ban, because it makes no sense, since curse is the move that should be banned, and that was banned way before introducing the gen4 items.

Difference is, there is a lot of counter play to Curse. Is there really counter play for Body Slam? Nothing is too viable that can heal bell(I think it was xploz who already said this, read his post for more in-depth discussion on that), the ghost types that are immune to Body Slam aren't exactly the most impressive Pokemon to use and can lose to lax's other sets.

Edited August 18, 2016 by KaynineXL

[DoubleJ]

I can't wait to open discussion threads on Arena Trap on Dugtrio, Dragon Dance for Tyranitar, Choice Band with Salamence, and Wish for Blissey to bring those pokes back to OU.  

[Spaintakula]

I really think a complex ban on a move that tends to paralyze is a bit ridiculous. Literally, out of the 3, why would you pick a ban on body slam and not curse. Not that I support a curse ban, but really. I don't see why I should fear a body slam over a setup that can later abuse something even powerful than it (return/dedge; etc).

2 hours ago, RysPicz said:

No. Dugtrio is uncompetitive. Amount of pokes it can just simply kill is unbeliveable, plus Dugtrio can get just whirlwinded out. It would not solve the Snorlax problem and make OU even more cancerous as it is right now. We should not bring one broken poke to seemingly balance the meta with another broken mon.

It got banned in a metagame without the items we currently have. Like it or not, if it was back, it wouldn't have the exact same impact on the metagame as it used to have. Plus, maybe people will stop whining and actually expect a poke of theirs being trapped and revenge killed, idk, maybe it's because I never even liked the dug ban, that's just me.

 

Edit: hhhh sorry but I couldn't help chuckle at how there's a lot of counter-play to a +3 atk/def monster with already high hp/spdef that can dent pretty much anything over a move that has a 30% para chance.

 

Man, y'all lucky we don't have shit like jirachi

Edited August 18, 2016 by Spaintakula

[DoubleJ]

Ok let me get serious for a second and piggy back off of Spaint's very intelligent response: Snorlax is terrifying because it can sweep you with Curse. This is known and every player in the game must find a way to deal with Curselax or risk losing. The entire reason why we are uguuing about Body Slam is because on Curse sets, Body Slam can immobilize its primary counters; with those counters being Rhydon, Skarmory, Metagross, and fighting types that come in and try to Superpower, Low Kick, or force the Snorlax to switch. Smart players don't even fuck around with swapping a fighting-type in on Snorlax because of Body Slam; it will either kill you or have a 30% chance to cripple you for the rest of the match. 

 

A paralyzed Rhydon is still viable against Snorlax, but is terrible against the rest of the tier as it can no longer outspeed and break other walls. A paralyzed Skarmory risks being broken down by a boosted Fire Punch when it is unable to Whirlwind the Lax out of play. A paralyzed Metagross is similar to Rhydon, but unfortunately it doesn't carry a move to OHKO Snorlax and thus becomes set-up bait with one unfortunate paralysis really crippling its odds of beating Curselax. 

 

The problem isn't Body Slam it is Curse. Removing Body Slam would only force Snorlax to use a stronger STAB move in Return or Double-Edge and provide Rhydon with safer switch in opportunities. Unfortunately though, Rhydon is still absolutely fucked by Curselax Earthquake in the course of a long match, and honestly there is little reason not to run Earthquake on Snorlax if you are willing to risk Skarmory walling you all day long with Shed Hull to evade your Magneton. 

 

tl;dr Banning Body Slam would not solve the Snorlax problem that players can't even name

[XPLOZ]

6 hours ago, Lazaro23 said:

Snorlax doesn't fit in the uber category ( in my opinion ) because Haze, Trick, Whirlwind, CB Superpower, and more options exist ( Psych up meta, Destiny bond, Grudge, Curse Cradily with rest ( don't say inb4 a crit / paralyze as RNG is not an argument ).

Complexly banning body slam seems ok, but as Zebra said, why don't we complexly ban all the users ( except wobbufeg ) and use them again ? 
If you think banning snorlax will make the meta any better, do it, I mean, it was banned before at some time anyway.  and the meta was so shit, trapinch everywhere

 

Why are you so focused on Curse ? Because it had been complex banned like 2 years ago ? Nobody says that Curselax fits an Uber characteristic in the current metagame. Only few people are suggesting a Curse complex ban, with an invalid reasoning ; "it would make it less powerful".

 

You're missing the point about complex banning body slam. I reffer you to gb's posts because he already talked about it.

The last sentence is pointless so not gonna talk much about it. I'm surprised that you think the metagame before was shit. Imo it was pretty good, even maybe the best OU metagame I have seen on this game. People were first crying about Chansey but then they discovered many ways to beat it, and running it became actually a risk. This led to diversity and creativity to make a solid specially defensive core.

 

6 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Let's be real guys, is Body Slam the real issue here, or just a scapegoat to maybe get this guy banned? In all my years I never thought I'd see an attacking move with a secondary effect get so much hate. 

 

Honestly, what we are missing so significantly is a Ghost-type that is actually viable. Dusclops has such a limited movepool it really only acts as a Curse stopper and spinblocker. Both of which are incredibly valuable in our current meta, but unfortunately Dusclops has zero offense and becomes set-up bait for oh so many offensive weapons. Haunter is a terrifying threat, but sadly it gets removed by one simple Pursuit. Misdreavus is ok, but falls somewhere between Dusclops and Haunter on the scale of shitty ghosts.

 

I'm not saying we should bring back Gengar, since that would introduce a whole new dilemma. What our current meta demands is near perfect play, and even then a simple Body Slam paralysis can fuck that over, but isn't that what RNG is there to do? To level the playing field? Idk, food for thought. I personally believe Snorlax has improved the meta aside from it being annoying as fuck. We went from Chansey on 50% of teams being trapped by Trapinch and Diglett which let Jolteon and Starmie sweep. The meta was so one dimensional. Gardevoir made an appearance but then we saw more Houndooms which ended that little adventure. 

 

I think we're just bound to go 'round and round. 

I'm pointing out since my first post than yes, body slam on lax is the real issue. I don't know how many OU battles you do/spectate, but any regular OU player can see that it's incredible how paralysis from lax body slam highly influences the outcome of most of the battles ; at a point it becomes unacceptable for a competitive game. Unless I run dusclops (which isn't at all a top tier pokemon), I just pray every single turn not to get fucked by the repetitive body slams from lax. (40% of usage but it would be interesting to get the winning stats because I often fight players from the top of the leaderboard and at least 80% of them use lax).

 

Yes we're missing ghosts, and this is one of the main reasons which make Lax bodyslam uncompetitive. I wouldn't even mention the UUs/NUs.

 

" What our current meta demands is near perfect play, and even then a simple Body Slam paralysis can fuck that over, but isn't that what RNG is there to do? "

I feel like this sentence is contradicting istelf. Our meta demands perfect play but repetitive body slam from lax can fuck it up. So it demands more a good RNG than anything else, doesn't it ? Atm players are spamming body slam, even on normal resistances, because they know that a paralysis from lax gives them a ton of momentum. They consider that predicting anything isn't worth it. If you remove Bodyslam, I'm pretty sure people wouldn't spam their normal stab like idiots, because they would lose momentum in a lot of situations.

 

It's not really what I remember from the previous metagame, and I played it a lot. Nobody knew what was a Trapinch before gbwead and Keith used it in OU. Diglet was very rare. Chansey was over used (not talking about the tier), but those Rhydons/Venu growth/other stuff were laughing at it (> how we destroyed players at the beginning of Venu growth). Jolt was less used than now because P2s and Gardevoirs were a lot used. Starmie didn't sweep easily because Choice spec/life orb weren't added yet (they were only there in a transitory metagame). Houndoom was very rare, less used than now.

 

 

 

 

I'll anwser to the other comments, but later, cause i'm just tired right now. They mostly say the same stuff anyway. You guys don't understand the point, even if gbwead explained it quite well. You're focusing on Curse but nobody gives a shit about Curselax at the moment. It isn't the huge threat it was ages ago, when it got complex banned. If you think it is, then prove it, and don't say pointless things like "I would ban Curse because it is his most powerful move LOLOLOL". This is exactly the wrong reasoning, gb said enough about it. We shouldn't remove some power to lax with a complex ban, because it could be done for any other current Uber and that doesn't make fucking sense. The point is to remove his uncompetitiveness. And it isn't a choice between Curse, firepunch, bodyslam... It's only about body slam. Nik said something interesting : "I'd prefer a complex ban of Curse because if body slam is complex banned, lax will replace it by a more powerful move". Although I disagree with him, it shows that a Bodyslam complex ban wouldn't make lax less powerful, but more competitive.

 

Edited August 18, 2016 by XPLOZ

[DoubleJ]

Ok let's slow down a minute and think this through. What does a complex ban on Body Slam do for us in the grand scheme of the meta?

 

Without Body Slam, Snorlax with Curse is more susceptible to being countered by Rhydon and Metagross, since it can't paralyze them into oblivion. It would need to rely on Earthquake to stop those threats more readily, which opens it up to being stopped cold by Skarmory up until Snorlax is the lax Pokemon and Skarm can't do shit to a Curse wielding Lax. Ok, without Body Slam Curselax isn't as scary. 

 

Now to tackle the other sets:

 

Choice Band Snorlax doesn't give two shits about using Body Slam or not. It's still going to Pursuit trap Starmie, Alakazam, and Haunter. It's still going to wield an incredible STAB move and is no longer tempted to use a weaker move in favor of a possible paralysis (more OHKO's). CB Lax relies on prediction, not paralysis so I don't see much benefit in complex banning Body Slam with this set. 

 

WW Snorlax has one primary roll; to prevent set-up special attackers from building steam and to induce damage to the opposing team with the help of Spikes. It doesn't really need to attack and it's primary offense comes indirectly. No benefit.

 

Wallbreaker Snorlax: ok, this one is a bit tricky. This Snorlax is a set designed to be somewhat "anti-meta". It uses a surprise factor to Fire Blast unsuspecting Skarmory and Forretress and to Surf incoming Rhydon. It beats its own counters and has an added benefit of throwing around a strong STAB as well. Body Slam is typically the go-to since a wallbreaker set can benefit from crippling sweepers with paralysis. Although, is this the real goal of using Snorlax, to paralyze your opponent? I think there are other moves for that. Benefit is questionable. 

 

Rest-talk Snorlax has absolute staying power and is designed to just outright beat a team through its longevity. Body Slam paralysis will certainly help this set as a well timed paralysis can mean an extra attack. Unfortunately without Body Slam Snorlax just uses a stronger move, such as Return or Double-Edge, and might be able to get more kills in the meantime. Questionable benefit. 

 

tl;dr Complex banning Body Slam doesn't make a difference imo; it simply makes Lax a bit more manageable but won't stop it from exerting its dominance on the tier. 

[alphatheomegaaa]

like 2 and a half years ago Curse was banned for a while which worked pretty well imo,besides Chansey, Snor is the only real viable Sp wall, but when it is really Op is when it comes to its set with curse due to only requiring 2 turns to really setup,after that its just like f this shit theres no point unless u Crit a fighting move or Dbond him

 

I personally dont think Bslam is the problem, Return and Dedge do the same job and sometimes even better somtimes when ur +1 or +2 being able to give u that added stab and damage, just my 2 cents 

[Edniss]

My opinion?

 

Too weak for Ubers

 

Too strong for OU

 

...

 

He's actually fitting the borderline OU, I think.

[Moetal]

When this is your most reliable counter against parahax Snorlax, I honestly don't know what to say.

[DaftCoolio]

5 minutes ago, Moetal said:

When this is your most reliable counter against parahax Snorlax, I honestly don't know what to say.

id say u cant have very many comps then because if its parahax from snorlax u are worried about you would run dusclops or just a usual team and have heal bell on vap/umb/garde (idk if it gets it dont have in dex am bad)/chansey. 

[RysPicz]

I'm gonna speak from my first hand experience right now, I've been really rusty in OU lately but I had some OU matchmaking battles.

So my opponet brought a Metagross on me. He got paralyzed on the switch because of Body Slam. Then, I used EQ, as he meteor mashed me (EQ lax OP). Because he would get 2shoted, I predicted a switch and... used body slam again. Cloyster came out and... yeah, got paralyzed too.

I ended up having ~50% HP Lax at the cost of 2 paralyzed pokes with a Metagross having only like ~~40% HP left. At the very end the paralyze really, really mattered because otherwise my Rhydon would get outspeeded by both of them most likely, but after all, it didn't for obvious reasons.

 

I'm up for any decision regarding Lax, but this is just some first hand example, when Snorlax didn't directly sweep my enemy, but the Body Slam paralyze gave me an insane advantage in this battle.

 

Now, if I would have to run Return or Double Edge...

I wouldn't paralyze Metagross and I would immeadietly run away from it once it switches in.

I wouldn't paralyze Cloyster and my slower poke (Rhydon) wouldn't outspeed it afterwards.

 

Honestly I see 3 possible decisions:

1. Complex ban Body Slam on Lax

2. Ban Lax

3. We go dev style and do nothing and let the problem escalate