[OU Discussion] Snorlax [Test banned]

[gbwead]

3 minutes ago, BurntZebra said:

I disagree with the idea of complex banning body slam. Although it is a potential solution, it sets a horrible precedent for future tiering decisions. I mean let's say we had tyranitar in the OU tier still and it was really centralizing. We could complex ban dragon dance, since once you know tyranitar can't set up, it's a lot easier to handle since it's most likely either going to be band, scarf, or mixed. And if it's either band or scarf, then you can just rely on resists, like skarmory for cb locked crunches and metagross for cb locked rock slides, unlike with the dragon dance set which can freely choose its moves. Or for another example, we could complex ban pursuit on houndoom so it no longer fits the support/unhealthy characteristic in UU. But where would we begin on these complex bans? And where would we stop? How would we know when to stop complex banning everything so everything fits into a tier? Why make an exception for one pokemon when complex banning dragon dance on tyranitar is a (hopefully) laughable suggestion? 

 

Another component of complex banning is whether snorlax makes body slam broken or does body slam make snorlax overcentralizing/unhealthy. Is body slam broken on any other pokemon? I'd say probably not. No one is really complaining about body slam miltank or tauros. It seems that body slam is more problematic due to snorlax's large bulk+great base attack, which allows body slam to 2hko pretty much anything that is offensive. And that is more indicative of snorlax being the actual problem, and not body slam itself.

 

And as Forfiter has pointed out, Snorlax can still have a ton of power with other stab normal moves like return, facade, and double edge. Blaziken is even less likely to be able to come in vs snorlax if it's running return or double edge, as double edge can ohko -def blaziken and return pretty much weakens blaziken to the point that it'll die after one life orb attack.

 

 

I guess my reasoning for not wanting to complex ban body slam boils down to the fact that complex banning something on snorlax doesn't make sense if we don't complex ban every other broken pokemon with a single move that pushes it over the limit. Earthquake or reversal on dugtrio. Sludge bomb on gengar. Dragon claw or dragon dance on dragonite+salamence. Softboiled on blissey (maybe?). And if we're doing a move ban, it should be across the board, not just on one pokemon in one tier. 

 

Ya, I agree that complex banning Body Slam sets a bad precedent, but when something is uncompetitive I really see complex banning as a realistic and fair option. Houndoom was banned for being unhealthy. Blissey, Gengar and Dugtrio as well. Dragonite, Salamence and Tyranitar were ban for fitting offensive uber characteristics. The only previous uncompetitive ban that we had was Wobbuffet and, since it doesn't learn another ability than Shadow Tag, a complex ban wasn't really an option.

 

Anyhow, I was trying to argue that Snorlax can be considered as uncompetitive and not just unhealthy, even though uncompetitiveness and unhealthiness are usually related. If a complex ban is not an option, Snorlax should then be ban imo.

[RysPicz]

 

How I see Snorlax without Body Slam

[XPLOZ]

I get the point of those who say that a complex ban would set a bad precedent for other tiering discussions. 

The line is thin between different complex bans. I feel like this one wouldn't be exactly the same than removing DD to Ttar for example. Nobody argued much about Lax being too OP or being unhealthy for OU yet. It just abuses of a move which becomes uncompetitive at 1 point. If you remove it, Lax will just replace it by another normal stab, sometimes more powerful, but which can't be abused. I really see those Snorlax making more clever plays than spamming Return on normal resistances like an idiot.

Anyway, I know that this statement is kinda subjective. Is there a difference between removing his uncompetitiveness and removing some of his power ? It's almost philosophical...

 

I think there are 2 questions we should study right now. 

Is Bodyslam + Lax a real pain for the OU metagame, at a point we should ban it ? 

If not, end of the story.

If yes, is Lax without Body slam important for the stability of the metagame ? (Special sweepers stronger than before, Chansey easily trapable... ...)

If not, Lax should be banned.

If yes, a complex ban should be considered.

 

In other words, a complex ban should be considered in a very specific situation, at the end of the discussion. As Gunthug said, I brought it too early in the discussion.

 

 

 

EDIT : Of course feel free to say that Lax should be banned for another reason than Bodyslam

Edited August 17, 2016 by XPLOZ

[Murcielago]

I really don't feel that it should be banned tbh, at least not yet.

 

Its not uber offensive or defensive, supportive... anything.  Its also really not "too good to use" but it is "too good to not be prepared for"

 

I also feel like banning lax now wouldn't allow the meta to evolve... if your losing straight up to curselax your not building your teams properly.  mis-predicting snorlax can be very punishing, but so can predicting anything else... 

 

The problem with snorlax is when you predict wrong it is a slow and painful death, or a slow and painful heavy blow.  you have to sit and read the + atk + def - speed messages sometimes for multiple turns and then have the thing slowly tear you apart compared to say predicting the wrong band on a flygon or switching gyrados into a tpunch... it has a bigger emotional impact...

 

I dont know, I just feel like the more bans we have the harder it makes it to get the right comps together.  Like the competive advantage the "no life players" have over the people who do other stuff aside from pokemon gets even greater the more often we change the meta.

 

Like... if its not banned i would imagine the usage would eventually drop or level out... its not going to rise to 50%+ usage, I wouldnt think anyways.

[Hotarubi]

11 hours ago, XPLOZ said:

 

Can you explain how curse is the main problem here ? Because I really think it isn't. From what I saw, very few good players are getting swept by curselax in the current metagame.

Saying "at least it will be less good without curse" is exactly the kind of reasoning we should avoid concerning complex bans. If we're going this way, we can just unban all the ubers and complex ban them.

My point is that Lax without bodyslam is kinda healthy for the metagame. I didn't talk much about it yet but you made a valid point saying chansey might be "too easy" to trap. And with the new items, a fast and powerful special sweeper could be savage once chansey is gone. Well a good teambuild with good resistances/immunities or/and a Choice scarfer could deal with it.

 

Also I agree with xilias, the para of bodyslam can help Curselax to set-up. When Metagross or Rhydon come to try to avoid a sweep, a para stops them cold.

 

The fact that Curselax or snorlax in general came out of uber tier made me thinking OH SHIT?!
Honestly My personal opinion is that it belongs in uber where it was for a long while.

Overall I see snorlax as becoming so common in teams during Ou matchmaking that you pretty much have to bring a counter just for curselax.

Though opinion is the least valuable type of information I think its a valid one.

Snorlax is causing a huge imbalance problem to the OU tier and I know I'm not alone in feeling this way.

#makesnorlaxUber.

[Aerun]

2 hours ago, Hotarubi said:

The fact that Curselax or snorlax in general came out of uber tier made me thinking OH SHIT?!
Honestly My personal opinion is that it belongs in uber where it was for a long while.

Overall I see snorlax as becoming so common in teams during Ou matchmaking that you pretty much have to bring a counter just for curselax.

Though opinion is the least valuable type of information I think its a valid one.

Snorlax is causing a huge imbalance problem to the OU tier and I know I'm not alone in feeling this way.

#makesnorlaxUber.

Nah, like someone said if snorlax goes to uber again, only viable spdef wall will be chansey, and that's a bait for trappers.

Also I just like how the OU tier is atm but yeah that bodyslam is annoying especially if you have a shit rng like mines.

[Draekyn]

1 minute ago, Aerun said:

if you have a shit rng like mines.

Oooh @Rigamorty gonna cut you

[NikhilR]

13 minutes ago, Aerun said:

Nah, like someone said if snorlax goes to uber again, only viable spdef wall will be chansey, and that's a bait for trappers.

Also I just like how the OU tier is atm but yeah that bodyslam is annoying especially if you have a shit rng like mines.

Shed Shell / Hull Chansey new meta.

 

Lack of leftovers gonna hurt it bad.

Edited August 17, 2016 by NikhilR

[BlackJovi]

1 minute ago, NikhilR said:

Shed Shell / Hull Chansey new meta.

 

Lack of leftovers gonna hurt it bad.

iirc, EpicVerde used it vs yang and won, it knocked his fuck off 

[Aerun]

2 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Shed Shell / Hull Chansey new meta.

 

Lack of leftovers gonna hurt it bad.

Also does shell thinggy work on a move like block tho?

Rest block slowbro mvp

[DarylDixon]

3 minutes ago, BlackJovi said:

iirc, EpicVerde used it vs yang and won, it knocked his fuck off 

knock off ludi so ezz

[NikhilR]

9 minutes ago, Aerun said:

Also does shell thinggy work on a move like block tho?

Rest block slowbro mvp

Shed Shell allows you to switch out from block also.

[RysPicz]

4 hours ago, NikhilR said:

Shed Shell allows you to switch out from block also.

Can't wait to see some sneaky players using a Shed Hull Kanga against me in UU.

 

About the trapping argument, let's not forget- both Chansey and Snorlax have anti-trapping tools. Snorlax can whirlwind, Chansey can Hail (for Diglett) or Sub (for Trapinch) but it will get phucked by Perish Haunter while Snorlax won't.

Just so, you know, they have tools to keep their leftovers recovery.

[Spaintakula]

20 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Can't wait to see some sneaky players using a Shed Hull Kanga against me in UU.

 

About the trapping argument, let's not forget- both Chansey and Snorlax have anti-trapping tools. Snorlax can whirlwind, Chansey can Hail (for Diglett) or Sub (for Trapinch) but it will get phucked by Perish Haunter while Snorlax won't.

Just so, you know, they have tools to keep their leftovers recovery.

0 SpA Chansey Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Haunter: 94-112 (40.6 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Hey hey hey, that is, if haunter doesn't have pain split

[Laz]

So in order for chansey to deal with trappers, its moveset will probably look like this:

 

Wish. protect, toxic, psychic 
Wish protect, toxic, hail,
Wish protect, toxic, hyper voice
Wish, protect, substitute, toxic
( Chansey with no wish is just a sitting bait, and seismic instead of toxic means slowbro will sweep your whole team )

Wish protect, toxic, seismic with shed hull 

252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 99-117 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 99-117 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- 83.4% chance to 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 99-117 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 3 layers of Spikes

Not forgetting Trick, which can make chansey unusable if you depend on it as your only special defensive wall, banning snorlax will be unhealthy for the meta as the key to winning will be: getting rid of Chansey.

If Chansey adapts to the trappers it will lose 1 important moveset ( seismic toss ) which will make it clearly a setup bait, inb4 you say it is already a setup bait, but it can take down low hp pokemons, which won't be able to take down if snorlax is banned.
Porygon2 is shit, it dies to 2 high rolls Choice specs surf, and low roll Psychic.

Snorlax doesn't fit in the uber category ( in my opinion ) because Haze, Trick, Whirlwind, CB Superpower, and more options exist ( Psych up meta, Destiny bond, Grudge, Curse Cradily with rest ( don't say inb4 a crit / paralyze as RNG is not an argument ).

Complexly banning body slam seems ok, but as Zebra said, why don't we complexly ban all the users ( except wobbufeg ) and use them again ? 
If you think banning snorlax will make the meta any better, do it, I mean, it was banned before at some time anyway.  and the meta was so shit, trapinch everywhere

 

 

 

 

 

[NikhilR]

27 minutes ago, Lazaro23 said:

So in order for chansey to deal with trappers, its moveset will probably look like this:

 

Wish. protect, toxic, psychic 
Wish protect, toxic, hail,
Wish protect, toxic, hyper voice
Wish, protect, substitute, toxic
( Chansey with no wish is just a sitting bait, and seismic instead of toxic means slowbro will sweep your whole team )

Wish protect, toxic, seismic with shed hull 

252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 99-117 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 99-117 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- 83.4% chance to 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 99-117 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 3 layers of Spikes

Not forgetting Trick, which can make chansey unusable if you depend on it as your only special defensive wall, banning snorlax will be unhealthy for the meta as the key to winning will be: getting rid of Chansey.

If Chansey adapts to the trappers it will lose 1 important moveset ( seismic toss ) which will make it clearly a setup bait, inb4 you say it is already a setup bait, but it can take down low hp pokemons, which won't be able to take down if snorlax is banned.
Porygon2 is shit, it dies to 2 high rolls Choice specs surf, and low roll Psychic.

Snorlax doesn't fit in the uber category ( in my opinion ) because Haze, Trick, Whirlwind, CB Superpower, and more options exist ( Psych up meta, Destiny bond, Grudge, Curse Cradily with rest ( don't say inb4 a crit / paralyze as RNG is not an argument ).

Complexly banning body slam seems ok, but as Zebra said, why don't we complexly ban all the users ( except wobbufeg ) and use them again ? 
If you think banning snorlax will make the meta any better, do it, I mean, it was banned before at some time anyway.  and the meta was so shit, trapinch everywhere

 

 

 

 

 

Shed Shell allows Chansey to not become trap bait and  prevents the need for it to change its moveset, thus allowing it to support and act as spdef wall. Trick applies to Snorlax as well, the difference being that snorlax isn't completely crippled unless you have a safe switch in, but it becomes a much less reliable switch in to special attackers. A curse-less snorlax can also be swept by Slowbro.

 

Pokes that are viable and learn Haze are namely Weezing, Milotic and Dusclops. You're quick to say that Chansey has to give up a move for trappers but do you see how Snorlax forces those pokemon above to drop a valuable move for it as well? Skarmory is forced to run Shed Shell to avoid being trapped by Magneton and Leftovers-less Skarmory is pretty much ass because of lack of roost, and when you factor in that it has to repeatedly take a +1 fire punch from Snorlax, it's no longer an effective answer. I haven't seen any pokemon use grudge but it could definitely be a ingenious way to take down Lax. Destiny Bond is not an actual answer to beating Curselax either since it can either be stalled out or scouted with its limited pp. Cradily isn't something that great either, considering that Breloom's usage is on the rise and Heracross+Metagross are seeing decent usage as well. Psych Up Meta is actually pretty cool, but paralysis is DEFINITELY a part of the argument because it is a 30% chance of happening. So theoretically, Metagross can switch into a body slam and get para'd, then take the fire punch and then either psych up or get parahaxed. I think I saw in RNSC thread or somewhere, where a Metagross basically got crit+burnt. Of course this is situational, but the truth is that this has been tried out and failed. Frags ran a psych up meta vs me in 2015 and it got burnt by fire punch. While psych up meta is a really good answer, it's not one of the best out there. 

 

There's the other issue of how Snorlax basically limits teambuilding to the point where you can question its healthiness in the meta. People say you need a safe switch in for snorlax but given the no. of possible sets it can run, there is essentially no proper counter. You just have to be lucky that you're running a Rhydon vs a curse-firepunch lax or a bodyslam / pursuit / fireblast lax because that's the only situation where I can see having a lax can become a vulnerability or how its presence can be punished. While curse isn't going to be complex banned, I'm in favour of getting rid of it in OU. 

Edited August 17, 2016 by NikhilR

[DoubleJ]

Let's be real guys, is Body Slam the real issue here, or just a scapegoat to maybe get this guy banned? In all my years I never thought I'd see an attacking move with a secondary effect get so much hate. 

 

Honestly, what we are missing so significantly is a Ghost-type that is actually viable. Dusclops has such a limited movepool it really only acts as a Curse stopper and spinblocker. Both of which are incredibly valuable in our current meta, but unfortunately Dusclops has zero offense and becomes set-up bait for oh so many offensive weapons. Haunter is a terrifying threat, but sadly it gets removed by one simple Pursuit. Misdreavus is ok, but falls somewhere between Dusclops and Haunter on the scale of shitty ghosts.

 

I'm not saying we should bring back Gengar, since that would introduce a whole new dilemma. What our current meta demands is near perfect play, and even then a simple Body Slam paralysis can fuck that over, but isn't that what RNG is there to do? To level the playing field? Idk, food for thought. I personally believe Snorlax has improved the meta aside from it being annoying as fuck. We went from Chansey on 50% of teams being trapped by Trapinch and Diglett which let Jolteon and Starmie sweep. The meta was so one dimensional. Gardevoir made an appearance but then we saw more Houndooms which ended that little adventure. 

 

I think we're just bound to go 'round and round. 

[Thunderprime]

I just want to bring an idea: dugtrio

Why could we not give this little dude a try, it would fix so many problems. Blaziken too op? Punished. Not fair for chansey or herracross? Now there is shed hull and choice scarf. And finally snorlax would be punished for 90% of his movesets. Also dugtrio is easy to counter back by pursuit as well.

[Laz]

2 hours ago, NikhilR said:

A curse-less snorlax can also be swept by Slowbro. That's what I'm suggesting, at least we will have a lax that serves as a special defensive wall.

 

Pokes that are viable and learn Haze are namely Weezing, Milotic and Dusclops.   Those are some good answers, Milotic gets stronger with a paralyze, while clops and Weezing are bulky enough to take hits and haze it, unless you wanna wait until lax is +4 or more.

Cradily isn't something that great either, considering that Breloom's usage is on the rise and Heracross+Metagross are seeing decent usage as well. That means he will sac his curses and switch, and you will have a chance to not let it setup again if you predict well.

 

There's the other issue of how Snorlax basically limits teambuilding to the point where you can question its healthiness in the meta, there is essentially no proper counter.

Sub disable haunter when ?

 

 

2 hours ago, NikhilR said:

While curse isn't going to be complex banned, I'm in favour of getting rid of it in OU. 

2 hours ago, Lazaro23 said:

If you think banning snorlax will make the meta any better, do it, I mean, it was banned before at some time anyway.  and the meta was so shit, trapinch everywhere

 

Edited August 17, 2016 by Lazaro23
Fkn Autocorrect

[gbwead]

3 hours ago, Lazaro23 said:

Complexly banning body slam seems ok, but as Zebra said, why don't we complexly ban all the users ( except wobbufeg ) and use them again ? 

When it comes to Tyranitar, Salamence, Dragonite, Blissey and Gengar, it is not really possible to determine what is the ONE thing that makes a pokemon unhealthy or UBER.

 

What makes Blissey unhealthy? Natural Cure? Its crazy special bulk? Its access to Wish/Softboiled?  None of the above. Blissey is unhealthy for the combination of all these things and not one in particular. 

 

Why do Salamence or Dragonite fit offense uber characteristics? Is it because they have access to Dragon Claw? Is it because they have access to Fire Punch? It is because they have access to both Dragon Claw and Fire Punch which gives these monsters perfect coverage.

 

Snorlax is problematic in our current meta because of Body Slam specifically. It is Body Slam that makes Snorlax so uncompetitive. Heal Bellers are hardly viable which mean a paralysis has a permanent impact on a duel. Snorlax has no viable counter and several switch in options which mean Snorlax can spam Body Slam with ease with little to no consequence and puts the opponent in an impossible situation where he/she can only hope not to get paralysed.

 

3 hours ago, Lazaro23 said:

If you think banning snorlax will make the meta any better, do it, I mean, it was banned before at some time anyway.  and the meta was so shit, trapinch everywhere

I am not saying the meta will be better/healthier with Snorlax gone. I am saying that we have in OU right now can't even be called a meta since Snorlax's uncompetitive presence reduces OU to dice roll game. This is not a competitive meta. I am exagerrating a little bit here, but you get my point ^^

 

2 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

What our current meta demands is near perfect play, and even then a simple Body Slam paralysis can fuck that over, but isn't that what RNG is there to do? To level the playing field?

I am not sure I understand what you mean. When Snorlax comes in play, it usually puts immediate pressure on the opposing pokemon. To deal with Snorlax, the opponent needs to use checks - not counters - and, even if the opponent does so sucessfully, RNG from Body Slam can still ruin everything. How can that be considered as leveling the play field? To me, the RNG from Body Slam unlevels the play field even more.

 

 

 

Today and yesterday, I have seen people mention Destiny Bond and now Grudge as ways to counter lax. If we HAVE to use these moves to stop lax, lax should be banned right away. What will be next? CB Explosion Metagross? We would not have pokemons that fit offense uber characteristics if Destiny Bond was considered a viable way to counter them.

Edited August 17, 2016 by gbwead

[DoubleJ]

@gbwead What does Body Slam exactly do that makes beating Snorlax impossible? Which Pokemon are crippled to the point of losing their ability of countering Lax by a simple paralysis?

[gbwead]

14 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

@gbwead What does Body Slam exactly do that makes beating Snorlax impossible? Which Pokemon are crippled to the point of losing their ability of countering Lax by a simple paralysis?

That is the thing we don't really have counters to Snorlax, we have checks. If you want to deal offensively against Lax, sending Heracross, Blaziken, Medicham or other physical bulldozers should be an option. Right now, this option is highly unreliable because of the chances of paralysis of Body Slam. When we see Snorlax in OU, more often than not, the outcome of the duel is determined by that paralysis or that non-paralysis. Skills are not rewarded.

 

Ludicolo has the bulk to take Snorlax. Arcanine Charm can stop Curselax. Metagross Psych Up can stop Curselax. Rhydon can wallbreak Slowbro. Defensive Gyarados has the bulk to stop some Snorlax. Offensive Gyarados has the offense capacity to threathen Snorlax. Flygon can threathen Snorlax with Superpower. These pokemons lose to Snorlax if they switch in on a paralysis. The list goes on and on. 

 

Edit: Beating Snorlax is not impossible. If that was the case Snorlax would fit an Uber characteristic. Beating Snorlax is improbable, which is why I see Snorlax as uncompetitive.

Edited August 17, 2016 by gbwead

[NikhilR]

35 minutes ago, Lazaro23 said:

A curse-less snorlax can also be swept by Slowbro. That's what I'm suggesting, at least we will have a lax that serves as a special defensive wall.

 

Pokes that are viable and learn Haze are namely Weezing, Milotic and Dusclops.   Those are some good answers, Milotic gets stronger with a paralyze, while clops and Weezing are bulky enough to take hits and haze it, unless you wanna wait until lax is +4 or more.

Cradily isn't something that great either, considering that Breloom's usage is on the rise and Heracross+Metagross are seeing decent usage as well. That means he will sac his curses and switch, and you will have a chance to not let it setup again if you predict well.

 

There's the other issue of how Snorlax basically limits teambuilding to the point where you can question its healthiness in the meta, there is essentially no proper counter.

Sub disable haunter when ?

 

 

1) A lax as an spdef wall only (without curse) is definitely less scarier because it won't be able to sweep (unless sub lax) and can get revenge killed easier.

 

2) Milo is sort of a solid answer with haze, but I feel surf / hp elec / toxic / recover milo would be a better set, Weezing unfortunately suffers a lot more because of lack of coverage for other pokes and gets parahaxed really easily and hence won't be able to stop lax. 

 

3) You're right, but the momentum still remains with the Lax user and that's how it constantly pressurizes you. 

 

4) Disable has only 8 pp, so it's nothing something that will last long. Also with its paper thin defensives, it's easily pursuit trapped by something like tauros or maybe scarf hera. 

 

----------------------------------------

 

The biggest issue with lax is not knowing what set it is and that brings out so many mindgames. This means you generally have to run 2 answers for it, one for a safe switch in to body slam or cursed lax, and the other has a revenge killer. While parahax is a uguu, I'm more inclined to removing curse than body slam because a lax with return would hit like a truck. While lax does make body slam more powerful, curse makes lax all the more powerful. If curse isn't gonna be complex banned, then I'd go for banning Lax.  

[Gunthug]

25 minutes ago, gbwead said:

When it comes to Tyranitar, Salamence, Dragonite, Blissey and Gengar, it is not really possible to determine what is the ONE thing that makes a pokemon unhealthy or UBER.

 

What makes Blissey unhealthy? Natural Cure? Its crazy special bulk? Its access to Wish/Softboiled?  None of the above. Blissey is unhealthy for the combination of all these things and not one in particular. 

 

Why do Salamence or Dragonite fit offense uber characteristics? Is it because they have access to Dragon Claw? Is it because they have access to Fire Punch? It is because they have access to both Dragon Claw and Fire Punch which gives these monsters perfect coverage.

 

Snorlax is problematic in our current meta because of Body Slam specifically. It is Body Slam that makes Snorlax so uncompetitive. Heal Bellers are hardly viable which mean a paralysis has a permanent impact on a duel. Snorlax has no viable counter and several switch in options which mean Snorlax can spam Body Slam with ease with little to no consequence and puts the opponent in an impossible situation where he/she can only hope not to get paralysed.

There's another very prominent member of the community who is suggesting a Curse complex ban in this very thread - not to mention we've already had a past complex ban of curse (albeit in a different metagame). Doesn't that pretty much put snorlax in the same conversation as ttar, mence, dnite, blissey? Ie: We could talk all day about which move/ability we should ban, which is shifting the conversation away from where it SHOULD be - Is the pokemon unhealthy/overly centralizing?

[NikhilR]

6 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

There's another very prominent member of the community who is suggesting a Curse complex ban in this very thread - not to mention we've already had a past complex ban of curse (albeit in a different metagame). Doesn't that pretty much put snorlax in the same conversation as ttar, mence, dnite, blissey? Ie: We could talk all day about which move/ability we should ban, which is shifting the conversation away from where it SHOULD be - Is the pokemon unhealthy/overly centralizing?

Yes it is :)