[OU Discussion] Snorlax [Test banned]

[alphatheomegaaa]

1 minute ago, Hotarubi said:

<3 you , however probability is a proven math.

observed values vs expected values usually don't deviate too much from one another

However there is that chance and chance is not competitive.

I don't want to continue this mantra but....

What determines the numbers that are selected in the lottery or whether heads or tails results after a coin flip?

We can ask similar questions about biological events. What determines whether chromosome 14 will be pulled to the left side of the cell or the right side during anaphase I of meiosis?

What determines if snorlax will stop your team from being effective in the long term of a battle begin to end via bodyslam?

The answer is chance... chance is not competitive and in-fact involves no skill.

Then you've never played Pokemon. I would rather face chance Para over an assured +1Def +1Att Snorlax. Your arguement is on theory, We can discuss the what ifs, but what will happen when that snorlax setups is your going to lose, unless you have Haze or you get lucky with a Fighting move crit. You can't argue with theories or what if scenarios because those aren't facts, this game is based around Rng. There are crits, Rolls, Statuses, flinches, and misses are all unfair according to your theories. They make the game unfair and unbalanced then? So we should take them all out! fuck crits, fuck parahax, fuck confusion, fuck misses, fuck everything that makes this game interesting and the variables that make this game so great.

[Hotarubi]

1 minute ago, alphatheomegaaa said:

Then you've never played Pokemon. I would rather face chance Para over an assured +1Def +1Att Snorlax. Your arguement is on theory, We can discuss the what ifs, but what will happen when that snorlax setups is your going to lose, unless you have Haze or you get lucky with a Fighting move crit. You can't argue with theories or what if scenarios because those aren't facts, this game is based around Rng. There are crits, Rolls, Statuses, flinches, and misses are all unfair according to your theories. They make the game unfair and unbalanced then? So we should take them all out! fuck crits, fuck parahax, fuck confusion, fuck misses, fuck everything that makes this game interesting and the variables that make this game so great.

Well, the percentages of said probability in those other situational statuses or crits are not the kind of power that paraslam offers to snorlax.

Curse is bad however we have been told that no Complex bans would take place and so. 

Its either view the pokemon as a whole and ban it or don't ban it.

Its not about other pokemon statuses or crits.

Its about this pokemon and about what it is doing in our meta.

The exact things it consistently does is spam curse and bodyslam and wall off special sweepers forcing a swap and often times killing with pursuit....

[alphatheomegaaa]

4 minutes ago, Hotarubi said:

Well, the percentages of said probability in those other situational statuses or crits are not the kind of power that paraslam offers to snorlax.

Curse is bad however we have been told that no Complex bans would take place and so. 

Its either view the pokemon as a whole and ban it or don't ban it.

Its not about other pokemon statuses or crits.

Its about this pokemon and about what it is doing in our meta.

The exact things it consistently does is spam curse and bodyslam and wall off special sweepers forcing a swap and often times killing with pursuit....

If someone can spam Bslam on your then your a fool-of-a-took because your allowing that to happen to yourself. Will it happen eventually ofc thats what happens, but your arguement is based on solely on What If's, a scenario where everything goes wrong, but eventually there will be a match where everything does go wrong. You cant cry about it, it happened, its just luck(aka chance)

[Erayne]

Seriously, just bring back gengar to counter bslam spamming and to reduce snorlax options so that its counters work better. Knowing gengar is in the meta would mean people can't mindlessly spam bslam and would make a lot of snorlax run crunch, meaning let's say skarmory would be a far more reliable counter against it.

[Hotarubi]

41 minutes ago, Erayne said:

Seriously, just bring back gengar to counter bslam spamming and to reduce snorlax options so that its counters work better. Knowing gengar is in the meta would mean people can't mindlessly spam bslam and would make a lot of snorlax run crunch, meaning let's say skarmory would be a far more reliable counter against it.

PLEASE post this in requested discussions, we aren't discussing bringing in offensive ubers here.....

 

2 hours ago, alphatheomegaaa said:

Then you've never played Pokemon. I would rather face chance Para over an assured +1Def +1Att Snorlax. Your arguement is on theory, We can discuss the what ifs, but what will happen when that snorlax setups is your going to lose, unless you have Haze or you get lucky with a Fighting move crit. You can't argue with theories or what if scenarios because those aren't facts, this game is based around Rng. There are crits, Rolls, Statuses, flinches, and misses are all unfair according to your theories. They make the game unfair and unbalanced then? So we should take them all out! fuck crits, fuck parahax, fuck confusion, fuck misses, fuck everything that makes this game interesting and the variables that make this game so great.

I need to address this again. + 1 curse is still defeated by certain special sweepers, however not if they become paralyzed and not if snorlax is spamming bodyslam causing para.

 

[Erayne]

47 minutes ago, Hotarubi said:

PLEASE post this in requested discussions, we aren't discussing bringing in offensive ubers here.....

 

We're discussin about snorlax, and i'm just talkin about a solution not involving it's ban just like you said banning curse would be the solution. PLEASE think before writing anything and try to be constructive.

 

Edit: I meant bslam. Sorry

Edited October 30, 2016 by Erayne

[soyhector]

On 29/10/2016 at 8:55 PM, suigin said:

you know good players will remain good even if snorlax is banned right

it's not very likely that there's a good player whose only decent team relies on snorlax and whose winrate would plummet the moment it gets banned

Thats true but there are people who have not a good competitive level and win duels only because Snorlax and its RNG with Body Slam. Before Snorlax being OU the people had more ways to make their pokemon teams, but now they are obligated to use a waller and staller team. I feel that duels with Snorlax depends on luck sometimes and no on the knowledge of the 2 players.

[Spaintakula]

9 hours ago, soyhector said:

Thats true but there are people who have not a good competitive level and win duels only because Snorlax and its RNG with Body Slam. Before Snorlax being OU the people had more ways to make their pokemon teams, but now they are obligated to use a waller and staller team. I feel that duels with Snorlax depends on luck sometimes and no on the knowledge of the 2 players.

Except the same could be said the other way around. "Players can't deal with snorlax because they're weak or they don't teambuild good enough, or because this and that." 

 

Both nowhere near good enough arguments to give us a solid decision.

[DoubleJ]

After an extended community discussion, the tier council voted to keep Snorlax in the OU tier. Further discussion after that decision has honestly not been fruitful in my opinion. I've read countless arguments from the community post-decision and there isn't anything new. Players are still just complaining about Body Slam parahax, and aren't focusing on other issues that might warrant a ban. Truthfully speaking though, there really are few valid arguments to get Snorlax banned. 

 

We've all agreed it's not an Offensive Uber because it can be countered, based on the set. It's not a Defensive Uber because we've all found that special attackers can actually beat it throughout the duration of a match. It is borderline uncompetitive, borderline unhealthy, and could be classified as a borderline Support Uber with Pursuit + Body Slam paralysis. Regardless though, we are still seeing the same old arguments. Let's spice it up and find a new way to approach this top tier OU threat if you feel it really does deserve a ban. 

[pachima]

3 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

because it can be countered, based on the set.

B-b-but Typhlo also can be. And you want typhlo banned.

[DoubleJ]

11 minutes ago, pachima said:

B-b-but Typhlo also can be. And you want typhlo banned.

This is a flawed argument because the effect these pokemon have on the tier is completely different. In addition, there is honestly only one viable UU pokemon that can completely counter Typhlosion and that is 252+ SpDef Slowking. Otherwise everything else is just fodder to just one Typhlosion set, Specs or Life Orb Eruption/Fire Blast with HP Grass and EQ. That is what defines an offensive uber. 

[pachima]

Just now, DoubleJ said:

This is a flawed argument because the effect these pokemon have on the tier is completely different. In addition, there is honestly only one viable UU pokemon that can completely counter Typhlosion and that is 252+ SpDef Slowking. Otherwise everything else is just fodder to just one Typhlosion set, Specs or Life Orb Eruption/Fire Blast with HP Grass and EQ. That is what defines an offensive uber. 

This is completely true. I´m also in to ban Typhlo, but then you cant ask to keep snorlax because obviously there is also just one viable OU pokemon that completely counter Snorlax (bar some banded variants or parahax). Otherwise every other wall is just fodder for one of its many moves.

I´m  not saying Snorlax is same as Typhlo. Its not, just look at speed, kek.

But the effect both exert on teambuilding is pretty much the same.

[DoubleJ]

1 minute ago, pachima said:

This is completely true. I´m also in to ban Typhlo, but then you cant ask to keep snorlax because obviously there is also just one viable OU pokemon that completely counter Snorlax (bar some banded variants or parahax). Otherwise every other wall is just fodder for one of its many moves.

I´m  not saying Snorlax is same as Typhlo. Its not, just look at speed, kek.

But the effect both exert on teambuilding is pretty much the same.

Both are centralizing yes, but when it comes down to the most basic of arguments Snorlax isn't an offensive uber and Typhlosion essentially is. Snorlax could be argued as being a Support Uber since it can safely switch into really any special attacker without our not-so-trusty Focus Blast, beat them with Pursuit, and/or spam Body Slam for a chance at paralysis which does support its teammates. 

 

Snorlax can and does make it easier for other pokemon to sweep with ease. Gyarados is the best example since Snorlax and Gyara share the same counters (Weezing, Milotic, WW Skarm, etc). If Snorlax gets lucky and breaks these pokemon with Body Slam + paralysis or if it packs a surprising CB, Gyarados can sweep late game with these threats removed. Gyarados without a DD boost is also easily revenge killed and forced to switch by the very things that Snorlax Pursuit traps. If I were a pro-Snorlax ban player, I would start my argument there. 

[pachima]

16 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Both are centralizing yes, but when it comes down to the most basic of arguments Snorlax isn't an offensive uber and Typhlosion essentially is. Snorlax could be argued as being a Support Uber since it can safely switch into really any special attacker without our not-so-trusty Focus Blast, beat them with Pursuit, and/or spam Body Slam for a chance at paralysis which does support its teammates. 

 

Snorlax can and does make it easier for other pokemon to sweep with ease. Gyarados is the best example since Snorlax and Gyara share the same counters (Weezing, Milotic, WW Skarm, etc). If Snorlax gets lucky and breaks these pokemon with Body Slam + paralysis or if it packs a surprising CB, Gyarados can sweep late game with these threats removed. Gyarados without a DD boost is also easily revenge killed and forced to switch by the very things that Snorlax Pursuit traps. If I were a pro-Snorlax ban player, I would start my argument there. 

There you go, snorlax could in fact, be banned by unhealthy by being support uber which is what I always supported, there is just one thing: Pretty much everyone defending lax (not saying its u) is giving the wrong arguments to it, which consequently leads to to a wrong path on this discussion.

Anyway, I believe that this gives arise to some fruitful discussion around lax. Instead of 30 pages of the same bullshit.

Thats all I wanted from you. Thanks!

Also, dont judge me bad on the typhlo, I dont think Typhlo is really balanced on that tier (Can be, Idk, still to early to affirm and just my opinion)

Lastly, sorry! Cause I just wanted to use you as a new dawn for this thread, and start having some new arguments from a non-biased perspective of someone who wants to keep lax.

EDIT: Fixed some mistake, In my head, those two reasons eclipse one another. I know, they are both completely different reasons, but meh. Thanks for pointing it out @DoubleJ

 

Edited November 1, 2016 by pachima

[DoubleJ]

2 minutes ago, pachima said:

There you go, snorlax could in fact, be banned by unhealthy which is what I always supported, there is just one thing: Pretty much everyone defending lax (not saying its u) is giving the wrong arguments to it, which consequently leads to to a wrong path on this discussion.

Anyway, I believe that this gives arise to some fruitful discussion around lax. Instead of 30 pages of the same bullshit.

Thats all I wanted from you. Thanks!

Also, dont judge me bad on the typhlo, I dont think Typhlo is really balanced on that tier (Can be, Idk, still to early to affirm and just my opinion)

Lastly, sorry! Cause I just wanted to use you as a new dawn for this thread, and start having some new arguments from a non-biased perspective of someone who wants to keep lax.

 

 

Correction, not unhealthy, but rather as a Support Uber. Two entirely different classifications. And no problemo, keep up the good fight. 

[Murcielago]

I'm surprised this is still going on... at this point its clear that pachima simply doesn't like snorlax and wants it banned.  There are clear definitions as to what constitutes a ban and snorlax doesn't meet them.  At this point it is time to stop whining about it.

[Laz]

i have an idea make 2 ou tiers 1 with snorlax and 1 without snorlax

 

[Gunthug]

3 minutes ago, Lazaro23 said:

i have an idea make 2 ou tiers 1 with snorlax and 1 without snorlax

 

Cody tried this once lol

[Moetal]

And so the era of OU1 and OU2 begin.

[codylramey]

3 hours ago, Gunthug said:

Cody tried this once lol

the goal of what i was doing was different tho.

[Gunthug]

11 minutes ago, codylramey said:

the goal of what i was doing was different tho.

Well yeah, and iirc wasn't it the dragonite ban that triggered the attempt? Or maybe it was ttar  

[codylramey]

Just now, Gunthug said:

Well yeah, and iirc wasn't it the dragonite ban that triggered the attempt? Or maybe it was ttar  

It was the topic of complex banning all together.

[Gunthug]

Just now, codylramey said:

It was the topic of complex banning all together.

Oh kek, how could I forget 

[KaynineXL]

6 minutes ago, codylramey said:

It was the topic of complex banning all together.

Hey cody, whats up.

 

 

edit:

keep snorlax

pls don't ban me tyrone

Edited November 1, 2016 by KaynineXL

[soyhector]

So im going to start using my Snorlax >:c The point that some people dont understand is that Snorlax obligate to build a team only for counter it...Its really hard to use Jolteon, Alakazam, Espeon, Charizard, Porygon and some more pokemons. The teams are built all in the same way nowadays...Im not saying Snorlax is unstoppable, but for example i use pokemons i dont want to use only for it and i cant use other pokemons i want to use.

 

P.S: My native language is spanish, im saying if something i said is not understandable :)