[OU Discussion] Snorlax [Test banned]

[BurntZebra]

14 minutes ago, gbwead said:

You are right, I don't know much about these tiers. I litteraly just checked the tierlists, saw a couple of things that were banned and started to read some articles about these things. 

 

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that Mega Stones, unlike Soul Dew, are actually creating a new pokemon. A Latias that chooses to use a Soul Dew instead of a Leftovers is still a Latias even though Latias with Soul Dew is OP. A Gyarados that chooses to use a Mega Stone instead of a Life Orb is completly different from a regular Gyarados. They might share the same pokedex number, but Mega Gyarados and Gyarados are different. What I am trying to say here is that Soul Dew is completly useless on anything that isn't Latios or Latias. The fact that Mega Stones are also useless for pokemons that can't mega evolve is imo irrelevant since people see a mega evolutions as a new pokemons entirely. Saying Lucario is OP with a Mega Stone is somewhat misleading since Lucario with a Mega Stone is no longer a Lucario. 

 

Banning Soul Dew is the equivalent of limiting Latios and Latias. The same could be said about banning Natural Cure on only Chansey, banning Thick Club on only Marowak or potentially banning a move on a specific pokemon. If the ban is specific to a certain pokemon, the ban becomes complex by technicality from what I can tell. I guess it could be argued that Soul Dew Latios/Latias is so overwhelmingly strong that it is more simple to just ban the item instead of the pokemon. I think the same could be said about Snorlax and Body Slam to some lesser degree; instead of banning the entire pokemon, why not ban only what is broken about it? In the case of Snorlax, if it is possible to determine specifically what is broken about it, a complex ban somewhat make sense. I am not saying Latios should be banned instead of Soul Dew, but simply trying to put in perspective that complex bans are an option.

 

As for Drizzle and Drough, saying that these abilities are only too strong for pokemon of lower tiers is a pretty big statement. Surely, this analysis has many layers; Drizzle and Drough are not broken necessarily since they are not broken in OU; the pokemons that have access to these abilities are usually not broken without them. I haven't looked into that ban in details - so once again feel all free to correct me if I am wrong - but Smogon basically determined that Drizzle and Drough were only broken in lower tiers rather than flat banning the lower tiers pokemon or flat banning the abilities in all tiers. This sounds a lot that our PokeMMO situation; Body Slam is not necessarily a problem in general and Snorlax might not be a problem. If only Snorlax with Body Slam is the issue, that is what we should focus on imo.

 

I am really not trying to imply that our flat Baton Pass ban is a complex ban. That would be quite stupid. I was attempting to show that nearly all bans - whether it is a flat ban or a complex ban - are limiting some pokemons. Unless tiering becomes a popularity contest, people agreeing that the negative consequences of our flat Baton Pass ban are minimal is hardly a valid reason to justify if something should be banned or not. Considering the amount of support in this thread for a Body Slam complex ban, it would be quite easy to make this ban happen. A consensus is always good, but that doesn't always lead to the best decision.

 

From our tiering policy:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Banning Types: Flat Bans and Complex Bans

 

There are two types of bans, Flat Bans and Complex Bans. Flat bans are used for general situations, when a pokemon, move, ability, etc. meet some sort of banning criteria, at which point, they are banned in their entirety. However, in complex situations where a flat ban would be either ineffective or heavily unfavorable for some reason, complex bans can be used. Typically, these are used for a situation where one specific issue cannot be sorted out, such as with the Shell Smash + Baton Pass ban which took place in Generation 5 within lower tiers. In this case, there were multiple pokemon which could abuse this combination, meaning a flat ban on all of these pokemon was excessive. Likewise, Shell Smash itself wasn't a problem, as there were many legitimate users of it, and the same applied to Baton Pass. As this was a complex situation in which no Flat Ban method was ideal, a Complex Ban was used.

 

Is flat banning Snorlax heavily unfavorable for some reason? Yes. The only way to flat ban Snorlax at this point would be to test ban it which leads to numerous problems, namely an unstable OU metagame and lower tier disruptions. Some people also believe the Laxless metagame will be incredibly booring because Chansey would be complete cancer. I personally disagree with that last statement, but it remains a potential reason why some people might see this flat ban as unfavorable. 

 

We are in a very delicate situation and expecting a simple solution to our OU problem is unrealistic. Why is a complex ban not an option? Why does it set a bad precedent for Body Slam on Snorlax and not for Shell Smash + Baton Pass in Gen 5? Complex banning Body Slam limits Snorlax just like complex banning Shell Smash + Baton Pass limit all the users of these 2 moves.

 

The bottom line is that, if we are able to pinpoint that Body Slam is what is problematic about Snorlax, I think we should not hesitate to complex ban. 

 

Soul dew latios is not the same thing as natural cure chansey. Soul dew only has an effect on latios and latias. Natural cure is on several different pokemon like chansey, blissey, starmie, roselia, and altaria. Thick club on marowak is a more valid comparison since the items have similar effects, although soul dew affects special attack and special defense on two already powerful pokemon, whereas marowak would probably be an NU or mediocre UU pokemon without thick club. The other issue with the comparison is that soul dew made both latios and latias overpowered, while thick club doesn't necessarily make cubone overpowered (for the sake of this argument, we will say marowak is overpowered, even though it probably isn't). This also leads into my other argument that a widely distributed move like body slam should either be problematic on every pokemon that runs it or on no pokemon at all, if you're trying to claim body slam is the issue. If snorlax is the only user of body slam that has any prevalence in the meta and nothing else runs body slam, it might be a good idea to think- maybe snorlax is the thing that makes body slam powerful and spammable, not the other way around. 

 

I'm not really entirely sure on the whole story with drizzle+drought, since those abilities don't have much of a distribution, only kyogre+politoed for drizzle, and ninetales, zard y, groudon, and vulpix for drought. I've never really seen anyone complain about the tiering decision, although smogon doesn't always make the most consistent tiering decisions like banning chatter on chatot, even when chatot is the only thing that learned it. 

 

I think you're also overestimating how "unfavorable" it is to ban snorlax entirely. If it would disrupt the meta so much that we would all just die, then I think that suggests that snorlax has an unhealthy presence in the current OU tier. Currently, we don't really know what the meta would look like since the meta got reset a day or two after life orb was implemented, so anyone making claims about the meta doesn't really know for sure. There are some obvious reasons to run chansey, but there's also some big reasons not to run chansey. I won't discuss this too much since it's largely just theory and that's what the point of a suspect ban on snorlax is in the first place. 

 

Also for the record, I believe that snorlax is what makes body slam powerful, not the other way around. 

[razimove]

Just wish they'd make Snorlax Uber for 1-2 weeks, and do a few OU tourneys in that week, to see the difference. I mean, there's counters to him, if you predict the switch, or if you have a haze pokemon, but is damn to counter that thing if he gets 2-3 curses in. way to much of a threat compared to every other OU monster imo.

[OrangeManiac]

4 hours ago, redspawn said:

Just wish they'd make Snorlax Uber for 1-2 weeks, and do a few OU tourneys in that week, to see the difference. I mean, there's counters to him, if you predict the switch, or if you have a haze pokemon, but is damn to counter that thing if he gets 2-3 curses in. way to much of a threat compared to every other OU monster imo.

The thing is we kinda have an idea of the Laxless meta. The only difference to pre Scarf/Specs/Life Orb meta is Feraligatr being somewhat viable in OU right now. None of the physical sweepers are really that notable Orb users, perhaps Blaziken and Gyarados got some more viablity to break Weezing + Chansey with less effort than before. Other than that we've mostly seen the metagame and it's heavily dominated by Metagross, Chansey and Weezing. If Snorlax is at 40% usage now as the only Pokemon, these 3 were at the similar usage then too as Snorlax is now. at least you can argue that Weezing is actually a viable wall and not only used to Haze Snorlax. But in general test to me seems fairly unnecesary. 

[razimove]

2 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

The thing is we kinda have an idea of the Laxless meta. The only difference to pre Scarf/Specs/Life Orb meta is Feraligatr being somewhat viable in OU right now. None of the physical sweepers are really that notable Orb users, perhaps Blaziken and Gyarados got some more viablity to break Weezing + Chansey with less effort than before. Other than that we've mostly seen the metagame and it's heavily dominated by Metagross, Chansey and Weezing. If Snorlax is at 40% usage now as the only Pokemon, these 3 were at the similar usage then too as Snorlax is now. at least you can argue that Weezing is actually a viable wall and not only used to Haze Snorlax. But in general test to me seems fairly unnecesary. 

I've been using life orbs on a few, houndoom/blaziken being 2 good examples, together with aero and sceptile, works fine on them. I just can't figure a way to make sureI can get around a snorlax that is with 2-3 curses already, not a big fan of weezing myself, been using haze on milotic and even testing on dusclops. But I'd rather see metagross, chansey and weezing than see a snorlax hoenstly. Those 3 go down easily if you play well, snorlax? nah.. one mistake is over.

[BurntZebra]

11 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

The thing is we kinda have an idea of the Laxless meta. The only difference to pre Scarf/Specs/Life Orb meta is Feraligatr being somewhat viable in OU right now. None of the physical sweepers are really that notable Orb users, perhaps Blaziken and Gyarados got some more viablity to break Weezing + Chansey with less effort than before. Other than that we've mostly seen the metagame and it's heavily dominated by Metagross, Chansey and Weezing. If Snorlax is at 40% usage now as the only Pokemon, these 3 were at the similar usage then too as Snorlax is now. at least you can argue that Weezing is actually a viable wall and not only used to Haze Snorlax. But in general test to me seems fairly unnecesary. 

That's a pretty big assumption to make. Scarf, specs, life orb, and shed hull, along with milotic and feraligatr (and typhlosion I guess) obviously have some significant impact on the tier. We really only saw like a week of choice scarf+specs meta of a snorlax-less meta and maybe like 1 or 2 days of snorlax-less meta with life orb and shed hull. Scarf and specs have some obvious advantages by getting some immediate speed or special attack, but they also make the distribution of trick users better. Alakazam and starmie have a lot more of an incentive to run trick now since they can actually use choice items to their advantage. Life orb has had some obvious effects on the meta. As you mentioned, metagross, gyarados, and blaziken got a lot more viable with life orb, especially the mixed sets of these, allowing metagross to 2hko ludicolo/slowbro, gyarados 2hko'ing cloyster/skarmory, and allowing blaziken to do a lot more in general. Besides that, venusaur, charizard, jolteon, espeon, heracross, houndoom, kingdra, breloom, medicham, and flygon all have more viability now with increased opportunities for offense. Life orb improves the matchup vs chansey a lot as well, since for a while, chansey could just protect vs physical attackers freely, but now they can be life orb, so they still hit with the power, while being able to change moves. If a medicham thunderpunchs a chansey while chansey protects, then chansey isn't really free to do anything now since medicham could just high jump kick and ohko chansey who thinks its going to live a thunderpunch, or they try to send in a ground type and get ohko'ed by high jump kick. 

 

tl:dr I don't think we can really draw any big conclusions about what the meta will look like since we haven't actually seen it.

 

Obviously there are some things that would be indicative of a successful test if we do end up testing it, such as increased porygon/gardevoir/venusaur usage, increased ursaring/machamp/heracross/breloom usage (all of these take pretty huge hits from snorlax, but have better matchups vs chansey), and possibly decreased skarmory/metagross usage. There is more to a test besides this, such as overall team building constraint (is it easier to build teams without snorlax than building teams for snorlax) and overall viability of certain pokemon that snorlax previously made fairly unviable. 

 

[Murcielago]

Is snorlax uber?

 

Offensive:

 

The only way snorlax even comes close to this is with curse. Even then the prevalence of haze users and steel type walls prevents most/all curse lax sweeps. Curse lax can be used as a special wall and late game sweeper once his counters are gone.

 

Defensive:

 

With curse snorlax can become insanely bulky. After 2 curses even super power and fighting moves don't do all that much damage. Still, this requires set up and assumes the other player doesn't have a haze user.

 

Support:

 

Snorlax doesn't add any significant support to help another pokemon sweep with ease.

 

 

Based on the above three criteria for uber, it is clear that Snorlax is not uber. Its presence in the metagame does make haze/roar users much more viable but that isn't a bad thing.

 

 

Is snorlax uncompetitive?

 

Bodyslam with a 30% chance of paralyze can be quite useful. If snorlax is allowed to shoot off bodyslams something will get paralyzed. Thunderwave, wil-o-wisp, toxic, spore allow for a higher percentage (in many cases 100%) of status, yet those are not considered uncompetitive... With all of that said I do not believe that bodyslam/parahax makes snorlax uncompetitive.

 

Is snorlax unhealthy?

 

I have been playing ou competitively for about a year now... and I haven't seen more diversity in the meta as there is today. Bringing snorlax back made haze users and fighting types useful again also ghosts. There are also numerous pokemon who can be used to counter snorlax and allow for some creative team building, there have been numerous listed in this thread. Personally I found the “chansey meta” to be the most stale and boring of all... there was way less diversity.

 

 

TLDR: Dont ban snorlax its not uber, and it is healthy and competitive.

[KaynineXL]

Good job TC. You made the right decision.

 

 

I wanted to add, @Tyrone you said Snorlax will not be banned at this moment, does this mean we are going to discontinue this discussion?

[Hotarubi]

9 hours ago, KaynineXL said:

 

 @Tyrone you said Snorlax will not be banned at this moment, does this mean we are going to discontinue this discussion?

I sure, hope not. Though you may feel it was a good decision. A large group within the community is displeased with this decision.

The opinion of a select few should not outweigh the opinion of many.

I don't know how to apply logic to an illogical situation. Which is exactly what this is.

New people get appointed and then drastic changes happen to the tiers and the one thing that needs to happen most doesn't happen.

Wonderful job.

Lets just throw bellyzard back into UU too while we are at it.......

 

Once again, I don't see how this is logical since its not a popularity contest but.....

The movement of Typhlosion to UU seems to have been based on usage, however it should already have a ban from UU 

as its presence will force players to build against it being an extremely dangerous offensive specs poke in the tier.

 

Though I feel i'm getting off topic. I know that nothing much can be said that wasn't said here before.

However I can say this, given the opportunity I am more than sure our community would do away with this .

Snorlax In OU situation.

I see that more often than not people want either 

A. 

A complex ban on Snorlax, via curse or Bodyslam.

B.

A complete ban on Snorlax.

 

Not to remain bias but I'm mostly concerned with what the community wants here.

Not just a select few people who want to keep this uncompetitive factor  in the tier.

I see it as both limiting on team building possibilities, and non sporting because it makes the game more of an RNG struggle in many cases.

It also provides multiple risks for players who build a team to counter snorlax but don't end up fighting one.

I see this decisions as very distasteful as "there won't be any complex bans." 

well on that note, an overall ban seems to be the best stance you can take.

 

Judgement on a persons MMO play time may be one thing to consider, however people should not be disregarded in this community based on any individual characteristic aside from that.

If you have been a part of this competitive community for any extended period of time and acquired any sort of tools or knowledge.

I think everyones voice should matter.

If you can battle 6 pokemon and play in matchmaking ranked. I think you should have a say in what does and doesn't go in the tier.

If you compete, on any level competitively I believe that should allow you the opportunity to have a say in what matters or atleast have the opportunity to have your voice heard or attempt to appoint someone who agrees with your valid opinion.

 

I don't see this as a fair decision and I don't think that there is a lot of logic behind recent tier changes.

I know that I am not alone in thinking this.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Hotarubi

[KaynineXL]

@Hotarubi

"The opinion of a select few should not outweigh the opinion of many."

 

Where is your evidence to support this claim? Just because Team KO is convinced, it may feel to you that there is overwhelming supporting for it, when in reality there isn't. With no disrespect, Team KO doesn't exactly have any stand out comp players(judging by official event results from what I'v seen), so why should the comp community all of a sudden be convinced it should be banned just because of the overwhelming support from Team KO?

 

I can assure you, many of the top ranked teams with the top ranked players feel Snorlax is not ban worthy. I will say something though, to lesser experienced comp players, I can see why Pokemon like Snorlax can be a pain, because one wrong move and it can be the end for you. More experienced players can usually handle Snorlax to a degree(lol at NikhilR).

Edited October 4, 2016 by KaynineXL

[Spaintakula]

10 minutes ago, Hotarubi said:

I sure, hope not. Though you may feel it was a good decision. A large group within the community is displeased with this decision.

The opinion of a select few should not outweigh the opinion of many.

I don't know how to apply logic to an illogical situation. Which is exactly what this is.

New people get appointed and then drastic changes happen to the tiers and the one thing that needs to happen most doesn't happen.

Wonderful job.

Lets just throw bellyzard back into UU too while we are at it.......

 

Once again, I don't see how this is logical since its not a popularity contest but.....

The movement of Typhlosion to UU seems to have been based on usage, however it should already have a ban from UU 

as its presence will force players to build against it being an extremely dangerous offensive specs poke in the tier.

 

Though I feel i'm getting off topic. I know that nothing much can be said that wasn't said here before.

However I can say this, given the opportunity I am more than sure our community would do away with this .

Snorlax In OU situation.

I see that more often than not people want either 

A. 

A complex ban on Snorlax, via curse or Bodyslam.

B.

A complete ban on Snorlax.

 

Not to remain bias but I'm mostly concerned with what the community wants here.

Not just a select few people who want to keep this uncompetitive factor  in the tier.

I see it as both limiting on team building possibilities, and non sporting because it makes the game more of an RNG struggle in many cases.

It also provides multiple risks for players who build a team to counter snorlax but don't end up fighting one.

I see this decisions as very distasteful as "there won't be any complex bans." 

well on that note, an overall ban seems to be the best stance you can take.

 

Judgement on a persons MMO play time may be one thing to consider, however people should not be disregarded in this community based on any individual characteristic aside from that.

If you have been a part of this competitive community for any extended period of time and acquired any sort of tools or knowledge.

I think everyones voice should matter.

If you can battle 6 pokemon and play in matchmaking ranked. I think you should have a say in what does and doesn't go in the tier.

If you compete, on any level competitively I believe that should allow you the opportunity to have a say in what matters or atleast have the opportunity to have your voice heard or attempt to appoint someone who agrees with your valid opinion.

 

I don't see this as a fair decision and I don't think that there is a lot of logic behind recent tier changes.

I know that I am not alone in thinking this.

The Tier Council has decided to not ban Snorlax at this moment. Votes in favor of a ban did not outnumber the votes against the ban.  

Please stop.
 

[Hotarubi]

2 hours ago, KaynineXL said:

@Hotarubi

"The opinion of a select few should not outweigh the opinion of many."

 

Where is your evidence to support this claim? Just because Team KO is convinced, it may feel to you that there is overwhelming supporting for it, when in reality there isn't. With no disrespect, Team KO doesn't exactly have any stand our comp players(judging by official event results from what I'v seen), so why should the comp community all of a sudden be convinced it should be banned just because of the overwhelming support from Team KO?

 

I can assure you, many of the top ranked teams with the top ranked players feel Snorlax is not ban worthy. I will say something though, to lesser experienced comp players, I can see why Pokemon like Snorlax can be a pain, because one wrong move and it can be the end for you. More experienced players can usually handle Snorlax to a degree(lol at NikhilR).

My expression wasn't merely regarding my own team.

Which is a rather arrogant and wonderful assumption on your part.

Bravo.

Anyways I have to insist that you are incorrect on this gross generalization you make of individuals.

You cannot make this claim just based on a newly updated tier council.

Whats more is criticism of my team, honestly doesn't hold up any argument here.

Having ranked players on the OU ladder isn't important to you i guess in that regards either?

Anyways to go more in- depth on this issue. I know that there are players all over the server who are displeased with this decision as I've been talking about this since this thread was started.

I've discussed this matter with players all over the server, not just ones isolated within my team.

It is both arrogant and repulsive that you would state something so farce as 

2 hours ago, KaynineXL said:

will say something though, to lesser experienced comp players,

Your oppinion about experience has nothing to do with this situation.

RNG and repetition leads the match to be about luck and not skill.

There are multiple players who are of great skill and prowess, and also individuals of great prospect and intellect when it comes to competitive play who also share this same opinion I have expressed.

This is a garbage decision.

I don't think I myself have ever been more disappointed seeing the opinion of so many go overlooked for the happiness of a minority.

 

2 hours ago, KaynineXL said:

Where is your evidence to support this claim?

My evidence to support this claim. Well when I attempted to creat a poll I was shut down. Sadly I tried to prove a point and honestly I believe that some people are just to afraid to admit the truth, or possibly that they are afraid of being proven wrong.

 

Edited October 4, 2016 by Hotarubi

[Spaintakula]

10 minutes ago, Hotarubi said:

My evidence to support this claim. Well when I attempted to creat a poll I was shut down. Sadly I tried to prove a point and honestly I believe that some people are just to afraid to admit the truth, or possibly that they are afraid of being proven wrong.

 

Yeah, we'd definitively like a poll from someone unimportant more than a poll on an official discussion thread, stop being so self-centered and butthurt, just because you're misunderstood, doesn't mean every other single person that doesn't agree with you is wrong right off the bat. Very childish and frankly a no-no if you want people to take you seriously. Which from what I see, they don't.

[KaynineXL]

14 minutes ago, Hotarubi said:

My expression wasn't merely regarding my own team.

Which is a rather arrogant and wonderful assumption on your part.

Bravo.

Anyways I have to insist that you are incorrect on this gross generalization you make of individuals.

You cannot make this claim just based on a newly updated tier council.

Whats more is criticism of my team, honestly doesn't hold up any argument here.

Having ranked players on the OU ladder isn't important to you i guess in that regards either?

Anyways to go more in- depth on this issue. I know that there are players all over the server who are displeased with this decision as I've been talking about this since this thread was started.

I've discussed this matter with players all over the server, not just ones isolated within my team.

It is both arrogant and repulsive that you would state something so farce as 

Your oppinion about experience has nothing to do with this situation.

RNG and repetition leads the match to be about luck and not skill.

There are multiple players who are of great skill and prowess, and also individuals of great prospect and intellect when it comes to competitive play who also share this same opinion I have expressed.

This is a garbage decision.

I don't think I myself have ever been more disappointed seeing the opinion of so many go overlooked for the happiness of a minority.

If the evidence wasn't gathered from your own team, then I'd love to see it. You can't quote that more are in favour for it gone than to stay when your poll didn't even give any evidence before it was closed.. So why did you already say it?

 

I'm sorry, Team KO has a lot of stand out comp players, maybe I'm not looking at the brackets hard enough. Ladder doesn't mean too much, no. Especially OU, it's for the most part, a grind, although ratio sets a good example of a good player.

 

I'm not wrong, Snorlax is a handful to deal with and if you don't have the correct switch ins, a lesser experienced player would find themselves in trouble. More experienced players know what to expect. This is the same with all Pokemon though, but I feel Snorlax is probably the most punishing.

 

Keep pretending you know it all though.

Edited October 4, 2016 by KaynineXL

[Hotarubi]

Just now, KaynineXL said:

If the evidence wasn't gathered from your own team, then I'd love to see it. You can't quote that more are in favour for it gone than to stay when your poll didn't even give no evidence before it was closed.. So why did you already say it?

 

I'm sorry, Team KO has a lot of stand out comp players, maybe I'm not looking at the brackets hard enough. Ladder doesn't mean too much, no. Especially OU, it's for the most part, a grind, although ratio sets a good example of a good player.

 

I'm not wrong, Snorlax is a handful to deal with and if you don't have the correct switch ins, a lesser experienced player would find themselves in trouble. More experienced players know what to expect. This is the same with all Pokemon though, but I feel Snorlax is probably the most punishing.

 

Keep pretending you know it all though.

You can still vote on the poll btw, you just cant post on the topic......

[KaynineXL]

Just now, Hotarubi said:

You can still vote on the poll btw, you just cant post on the topic......

Should have turned on being able to see who voted. This way we can see how many from your team voted yes.

[Hotarubi]

Just now, KaynineXL said:

Should have turned on being able to see who voted. This way we can see how many from your team voted yes.

You can still vote also.

I wanted to actually see where this went.

However it didn't get given the chance it deserved it just got shut down. Which is completely bullshit.

[OrangeManiac]

I think it's a wonderful idea of having a poll to decide a ban. Whoever makes the most alts is clearly the most dedicated to this game.

[Rendiz]

25 minutes ago, Hotarubi said:

You can still vote also.

I wanted to actually see where this went.

However it didn't get given the chance it deserved it just got shut down. Which is completely bullshit.

There are lots of negatives around holding an unofficial open poll and so is far from being an ideal way of gauging the feelings of the community. Not only the fact that it can be very easily exploited like Orange mentioned. Also based off of the fact that it is an unofficial poll straight after a TC decision, as it has the potential to have massively different results since a lot of players would simply ignore it since it as unofficial, also based on the timing and nature of the poll, it's clear that it would incite a disproportionate amount of votes in favour of a snorlax ban, since people would use it as a platform to vent their frustrations more so than anything else.

 

While I'm sure this was not your intention it could be viewed as an attempt to undermine the TC and further your own agenda  rather than trying to have an intellectual debate about the supposed issue.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Rendiz

[Hotarubi]

11 minutes ago, Rendiz said:

There are lots of negatives around holding an unofficial open poll and so is far from being an ideal way of gauging the feelings of the community. Not only the fact that it can be very easily exploited like Orange mentioned. Also based off of the fact that it is an unofficial poll straight after a TC decision, as it has the potential to have massively different results since a lot of players would simply ignore it since it as unofficial, also based on the timing and nature of the poll, it's clear that it would incite a disproportionate amount of votes in favour of a snorlax ban, since people would use it as a platform to vent their frustrations more so than anything else.

 

While I'm sure this was not your intention it could be viewed as an attempt to undermine the TC and further your own agenda  rather than trying to have an intellectual debate about the supposed issue.

WIth all due respect I would appreciate if this can happen then.

It wasn't about my own agenda and whats more It was mostly about collecting useful knowledge.

I don't believe that the person posting the Poll truly matters at all.

So long as it gets proper moderation .

If there was some way to prevent people from using ALT accounts to collect this information that would be much better also.

I don't like the loopholes which discredit anything that goes against whatever certain individuals have said.

I simply honestly want a fair decision to be made based on the overall fairness.

Maybe its true some players aren't in the know enough to have experience fighting snorlax in 500+ battles.

However I know a lot of us are.

I have to say this.

What if we could get 100 of those players together and have an actual vote between only those players?

That way there would be no bias decision making within who can vote.

50/50 chances seems fair to me.

If you took a larger group than 7 people whom already stated the opinion they sided with in this thread prior to being appointed council members.

Well i think that would be the fair decision.

I'm not ranting or trying to go on.

I see that this acceptance of Snorlax into our meta without the chance given to experience the new items, and pokemon, i.e. typh, mega, and feral, also milotic without snor snax just feel unfair.

Though that has nothing to do with how tiering works.

I know that this pokemon in question is deserving of atleast a complex ban and since "no complex bans" will happen.

This pokemon needs more discussion before an actual decision could be permanently made.

This really is absolute trash of a decision.

Nobody can tell me that I am alone in feeling this way.

[Rendiz]

18 minutes ago, Hotarubi said:

I don't believe that the person posting the Poll truly matters at all.

It's not really about the person who makes the poll rather the intent and potential outcomes of the poll. An unofficial poll has no purpose other than a platform to vent wheras if they made an official poll which would have the intent of helping to gauge the communities feelings and using it to help guide the TCs decision you would see far more votes from dedicated comp players.

 

19 minutes ago, Hotarubi said:

What if we could get 100 of those players together and have an actual vote between only those players?

I guess what you are suggesting here is something similar to what we had before (probably have some details wrong my memory is bad) with the previous lax / blissey ban where people who had played in 3? OU officials could vote on the ban. Presuming you mean something similar to this but including high ranking ladder players also?

 

The problem I see with this is also going to be referring to the previous lax / bliss ban, (again may have gotten some details wrong). The results were very even on either side, with it being slightly in favour of keeping the fat blobs around. Yet they were banned anyway as firstly; the results were close to even and more importantly because this was to be used mostly as an aid rather than the deciding factor by itself since the reason we have a TC is to make the hard decisions since quite frankly a lot of people just don't know what they are talking about when it comes to tiering and the meta and everything else associated with these things.

 

I feel like if another such poll was made it would have similar results with relatively even votes on either side. I know you seem to think that most people are in favour of banning lax but my personal experience has been the opposite, where almost everyone I have spoken to unanimously wants it to stay. Regardless of this I still feel like its pretty safe to say the results of such a poll would probably be around even, which would just end up throwing the decision back to the TC, making the whole endeavor pointless, while taking up a giant amount of time and resources for those involved.

[Kizhaz]

The result was never going to please everyone, when you have a 50/50 split one side was gonna get butthurt

[Bilburt]

a poll isnt a bad idea

there are easy ways around people using alts

- account must exist for a determined amount of time

- account must have at least have a minimum amount of posts etc.

maybe besides @TeamRocketHarry

I dont think anyone has 20 alts ready to vote

or you could allow only 1 account per IP adress or something of that kind

 

A poll would help determine what the community really thinks. And might help tier council with making a decision. While im sure Tier Council is trying their best. I cant help but think that some of the council would rather adjust the meta to their own battlestyle. Yes I know that nobody makes an unbiased descision. It at least helps check the abuse of power that might be happening. Furthermore, because we as players dont really have any insight into any decision that TC makes I feel we should at least have to right to influence the decision with a poll

 

 

[fredrichnietze]

1 hour ago, Kizhaz said:

The result was never going to please everyone, when you have a 50/50 split one side was gonna get butthurt

from my experience, their is never a tiering result that pleases everyone. i still meet people on showdown who say they quit mmo for decision "fill in the blank". 

[NikhilR]

5 hours ago, KaynineXL said:

More experienced players can usually handle Snorlax to a degree(lol at NikhilR).

I hate you. 

[Draekyn]

1 hour ago, Bilburt said:

A poll would help determine what the community really thinks.

What happens when a great portion of the community is unable to deal with snorlax because they can't be bothered to deviate from the defensive core they stole from a replay?