[OU Discussion] Snorlax [Test banned]

[jakesevtraining]

6 hours ago, Hotarubi said:

Yes I was told that they use it for snorlax. I wouldn't dare add this kind of strat to my party. Atleast not just for snorlax.

Feels a waste of one slot.

 

There are plenty of pokemons that can kill snorlax among others pokemon :)

 

 

maybe you should try using hitmonlee, he can kill snorlax :)

[pachima]

3 minutes ago, jakesevtraining said:

 

There are plenty of pokemons that can kill snorlax among others pokemon :)

 

 

maybe you should try using hitmonlee, he can kill snorlax :)

There are also plenty of pokemons that can kill tyranitar yet he is ubers, that is no valid argument.

[jakesevtraining]

Just now, pachima said:

There are also plenty of pokemons that can kill tyranitar yet he is ubers, that is no valid argument.

 

 

Heh well if they unbanned him I would kill him too as i am not an unskilled player ^_^

[pachima]

Just now, jakesevtraining said:

 

 

Heh well if they unbanned him I would kill him too as i am not an unskilled player ^_^

At this point, I don´t know if you are serious or not.

[jakesevtraining]

Just now, pachima said:

At this point, I don´t know if you are serious or not.

 

 

It's really simple

 

 

Snorlax is sort of annoying

 

Snorlax isn't that hard to kill/beat

 

 

I never really lose because of snorlax

 

 

 

I don't understand why people are crying about snorlax so I assume they do it because they're trash tier players

[Tyrone]

Just now, jakesevtraining said:

 

 

It's really simple

 

 

Snorlax is sort of annoying

 

Snorlax isn't that hard to kill/beat

 

 

I never really lose because of snorlax

 

 

 

I don't understand why people are crying about snorlax so I assume they do it because they're trash tier players

Implying other players are bad and yourself are good is not a valid argument to keep Snorlax in the Tier.

Please add some constructive argumentation to your posts, if you can not do this, just don't post at all.

[xXBlu3BreathXx]

Surely everyone can agree that Snorlax is strong, the wide movepool allows it to beat a lot of the regular counters, however it seems like people are forgetting that we are not dealing with Ash's 6 move Snorlax, you may point out the fact that Snorlax may force you to run mutiple mons just to deal with it, this point has little substance due to the presence of Milotic which can 1v1 every snorlax set. B-but parahax, hax is hax. Deal with it, this game is designed with RNG as a deciding factor as to who will win, sure body slam has a higher secondary chance then moves like flamethrower or thunderbolt but this is most likely due to the power trade off from other stab normal attacks. Snorlax makes great work with body slam to patch up the low base speed but that doesn't deny the fact it is slow especially if curse is under its belt, which allows you to revenge kill it with strong physical attacks.    

 

 If you really cannot deal with Snorlax you need to remember that Snorlax is not a wall but a tank, this means that eventually you can even take it down with special attacks, I've seen a couple of rain mons being able to hit Snorlax hard and no doubt trick users can make snorlax easier to deal with. A lot of gimmicks have been played to deal with snorlax such as wynaut, diglet and trapping/spite dusclops but just the fact that snorlax makes these gimmicks more popular it doesn't mean they are solely used for Snorlax, all of those listed can take on Chansey and have potential elsewhere such as Diglet beating mons locked into choiced electric moves. This also applies to the mons people run for snorlax commonly, lets say you run a Skarmory and a Ludicolo this leaves Skarmory subject to fire blast Snorlax while ludicolo can shrug it off, meanwhile a curse set would be a problem for Ludicolo it can leech seed or cripple it to force it to rest but that's it, Skarmory can easily whirlwind it out after that. The only two potential problems I see is paralysis on a sub snorlax with fireblast which could bypass the leech seed but I doubt you would not be able to deal with it with the lack of rest recovery (sub/bslam/fire blast/rest would be so kek to run) a long with the Snorlax user sacrificing his party to setup curse (this is a good thing because you should have a way to deal hefty physical damage to Snorlax). Keep in mind this is just an example I gave on the spot, I haven't tested it so I am by no means saying this is a 100% full proof method of defeating Snorlax. 

 

 Even if the ban does go through I would like more reasons than just "I don't want to teambuild for Snorlax" and "PARAHAX", although I do admit if anything is banned it should be body slam, it does pressure you with the paralysis (but this is just RNG) however this would allow for much safer switch ins. I fear with a full Snorlax ban the OU tier will become stale with Chansey, I know for a fact trappers would be used even more if Chansey is the dominant spdef switch in and Chansey is very exploitable to begin with. 

 

TL;DR I see Snorlax as a necessary evil that can be stopped (please no hitmontop-ttar argument). 

[pachima]

1 hour ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

the presence of Milotic which can 1v1 every snorlax set. B-but parahax, hax is hax.

First, banded Snorlax beats milotic 1v1. (With either return or Dedge) 

Second, I wouldn´t consider a pp stall battle a 1v1. Haze milotic can´t beat standard lax as lax also can´t beat milotic barring hax, which I´m excluding here.

Third, Most of what you said holds true however, I think you are commiting a error which can be summarized as follows:

A banned pokemon X is a pokemon which has either B or C features.

Snorlax doesn´t possess C feature.

So, Snorlax shouldn´t be banned.

What I´m trying to say is:

Snorlax definitely doesn´t fall on every banable condition, however, it falls on some.

 

Now, not regarding to your comment in particular, what i have seen in this discussion is that most people appealng for snorlax keeping in OU are commiting this same mistake. @gbwead already pointed out some of those called features where snorlax fall in the banned category. Doesn´t matter whether it falls on the others or not, One is enough (althought quite subjectively) for a ban,

 

Edited September 25, 2016 by pachima
Grammar. Stuff

[Erayne]

In my quite inexperienced point of view, I don't see why snorlax should be banned. Because there's no perfect counter for all possible movesets? But that would be true for other pokemon too and I don't even see it as a problem. Because team building is too much influenced by his presence in ou? Then chansey should have been banned a loooong time ago. It's a really good pokemon but not that op and I think it makes the tier healthier then it was before

[DrButler]

any idea when we will have a "yes" or "no" ?

[RysPicz]

8 hours ago, DrButler said:

any idea when we will have a "yes" or "no" ?

This. I feel like TC isn't taking any steps (aside from gbwead) and is just stalling the entire discussion

[Hotarubi]

2 hours ago, RysPicz said:

This. I feel like TC isn't taking any steps (aside from gbwead) and is just stalling the entire discussion

It is taking an awful lot of time to make a decision here.

I'll give you that.

I like to know one way or the other also.

[ReDellaStrada47]

On ‎17‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 5:09 AM, BurntZebra said:

And that is more indicative of snorlax being the actual problem, and not body slam itself.

 

And as Forfiter has pointed out, Snorlax can still have a ton of power with other stab normal moves like return, facade, and double edge. Blaziken is even less likely to be able to come in vs snorlax if it's running return or double edge, as double edge can ohko -def blaziken and return pretty much weakens blaziken to the point that it'll die after one life orb attack.

 

I guess my reasoning for not wanting to complex ban body slam boils down to the fact that complex banning something on snorlax doesn't make sense if we don't complex ban every other broken pokemon with a single move that pushes it over the limit. Earthquake or reversal on dugtrio. Sludge bomb on gengar. Dragon claw or dragon dance on dragonite+salamence. Softboiled on blissey (maybe?). And if we're doing a move ban, it should be across the board, not just on one pokemon in one tier. 

 

On ‎21‎/‎09‎/‎2016 at 1:57 AM, NikhilR said:

Is Snorlax unhealthy / overcentralizing? Yes it is. When you're forced to run 2 unreliable pokemon to handle that beast, it puts a lot of restriction on your teambuilding and you end up being unable to run pokemon that could break through your opponent's defense or you end up being unable to handle a particular threat. [...] Also WW / Roar doesn't accomplish anything when Lax is the last pokemon and can end up using Skarm as set up bait.  Milo getting that def boost due to paralysis means fuck all when it can't recover and thus doesn't allow it to counter other things reliably. Again if people feel that Skarmory+Milo are valid answers, then please do watch some of the replays mentioned in the thread. Changing a moveslot for one pokemon is fair but changing the entire ev spread of one pokemon to deal with another is unhealthy, like those suggesting to run defensive Machamp / Hariyama. I think those that were making comparisons of Snorlax to Tyranitar were trying to bring about the point of how Tyranitar can be countered by running bulky fighting types which eventually leads to unhealthiness. 

 

Can those who enjoy our current metagame tell me what is enjoyable about it and what forms of diversity is present? [...] Can those who say that Lax can be dealt with and that players haven't come up with an innovative set, suggest to the rest of us what can be used? From all I know depending on Lax's set, it has specific counters and that just basically means you have to run 2-3 pokemon to guarantee yourself that you won't get screwed by it. I can honestly say that I enjoyed the Chansey metagame a lot more because people HAVE come up with sets to beat Chansey like Growth Jolt, Growth Venusaur, Sub - Curse Haunter etc.

On ‎20‎/‎09‎/‎2016 at 7:27 PM, gbwead said:

Well, if there is no viable way to prevent this from happening and if it is child's play for Snorlax to come into play, it is a huge problem. Heal Bellers suck in our current meta because Snorlax makes them useless. Forcing people to play Milotic is hardly healthy for the metagame considering how Milotic is only good at sitting pretty and do nothing. 

 

Protect itself? Is this a joke? Snorlax doesn't need any protecting since its very presence is enough to give an unforgiving advantage to whoever uses it. You lose momentum scouting lax, you risk getting paralysed as you scout and we all know at this point how detrimental a paralysis can be. Forcing people to use a pivot + 1/2 moveset counters just to deal with lax is also not healthy for the OU metagame.

 

Please not this again. "Snorlax is not broken, it just you guys that suck". This argument is straight up pitiful given the number of quality players that have said how cancerous Snorlax is. However, when people start proposing Destiny Bond Houndoom and Lum Berry Rhydon as viable ways to adjust one's playstyle to Snorlax, it becomes quite clear who is deluded and who is not.

 

My 2 cents.

I think Snorlax is Uber. Too many hp + so much atck + so much spe. def.

 

The problem is not Curse or Body slam but Rest. At least for my team.
You can defeate a Snorlax burning it, for example, and the opponent has to switch to heal it; and you can use Roar/Whirlwind too.
Snoralx has too many hp to use Rest: full hp and no status.

 

So... I'm thinkg.
Some people say the problem is Body slam, others say it's Curse, I say it's Rest... MAY BE the problem it's just Snorlax itself?

 

Let me do some "maths" to see what Snorlax has more than others.

 

HP =160

Slaking 150. 65 s. def like Snorlax in def (but Curse!), 100 in def and Snorlax has 110 in s. def. More atk and speed... but that ability! Honestly the only Pokemon similar to Lax.

Hariyama 144. A bit more atk with 120. But look ad def (60) and s. def (60)!

Lapras? 130 with less s. def (95) a bit more of def (80 but no Curse) and a lot less (s.) atk 85.

Wailord? 170. 45 in each def... 90 in (s.) atk.

Wigglytuff?!?

 

ATK = 110  (half of these are not even OU)

Vaporeon has 130 in hp (Snorlax 160), 60 in def (65 + Curse), 95 in s. def (110 without weakness) and 110 in s. atk (Snorlax in atk).

Slaking and Hariyama as before.

Scizor 130. HALF hp, 100 def (110 Lax's s. def) and 80 s. def (Lax 65 def + Curse). No Curse, no Rest.

Ursaring 130. 75 def and s. def. 90 in hp

Rhydhon 130 and 120 in def. It's OK, but 105 in hp and...40 s. def (no Calm Mind or Amensia).

Machamp 130. 80 def and 85 s. def and 90 in hp too. Not bad buth not enough.

Breloom 130 but 60 hp, 80 def and 60 s. def

Absol 130 with 65 in hp and 60 both decences

Kingler 130 and 115 def... but 55 in hp (1/3 of Snorlax!) and 50 s. def

Pinsir 125 and 100 in def. 65 hp...

Gyarados 125 and also 100 in s. def. But 95 hp, no Rest, 4x Electric

Heracross 125. Quite good defences too (75 - 95) but HALF hp! And a some more weaknesses.

Armaldo 125 and 100 in def. But  80 s. def, HALF hp and some more weaknesses.

Granbull 120 and 90 hp. OK... 75 def, 60 s. def.

Hitmonlee 120. 110 in s. def. Oh, it's like Snorlax!!! No... 1/3 in hp! And even less def (53).

Donphan 120 in both atk and def with 60 in s. def. 90 in hp. It's not bad at all, but has nothing to boost s. def like Snorlax do with Course

Blaziken 120. HALF hp, and it's enough XD

Sharpedo 120 and half hp, and basically no defences XD

Crawdaunt 120. Less than half hp, both defences lower.

Kabutops 115 and 105 def. But 60 hp.

Zangose 115. HALF hp and 60 in both defences

Banette the same: 115, 65 hp, 65 def, 63 s. def

Arcanine SAME atk good. 90 hp good enough (?). 80 in each def, still good. And Morning Sun is as good as Rest. But not Curse.

Dodrio. I've never seen one! XD

Scyter same here XD

Swampert. Like Slaking is a perfect comparison, it has got Rest + Curse too. 90 in both defenceses is good, like the only 1 weakness. One of the most similar Pokemon to Snorlax, I think. The biggest different is that 100 in hp... guys the Snorlax problem IS HP!

Golem? Cactune?!? Flareon?!?

S. DEF =  110 (as with atk: most of these are not even OU)

Kekleon 120 and 70 in def, so it's the same or even better...(?) Nope 60 hp and 90 atk.

Tentacruel 120 and even 65 in def! But with HALF hp and a lot less atk (70/80).

Mr. Mime 120, 100 s. atk and 65 def. The difference? Try to guess: hp! 1/4

Hypno 115 and 70 in def. Oh, is even better than Snoralx! Half hp and 73 s. atk...

Gardevoir 115, with same defence (but no Curse) and a bit more of (s.) atk 125, but with 68 in hp and no Rest.

Hitmonlee as before. Hitmonchan too, and it also as 105 atk, but that damn 50 hp; the same for Hitmontop.

Slowking 110 perfect. 95 hp is good too and even 80 in def! 100 in s. atk is good enough. It has Slak-off. And Slowbro too, with Calm Mind he boosts s. def with a lot of def. But too many weaknesses and let's be serious 160 hp is a lot more.

Cradily 107, also 97 in def. But 81 in atk/s. atk and HALF hp.

The same for Blastoise.

Flareon again... lol

 

 

And this is important too:

On ‎21‎/‎09‎/‎2016 at 0:15 PM, DrButler said:

And what are the chances that we can have a talk about spectating tournaments again? Because if lax stays, we gotta do something about scouting. I dont really give a fuck about any other poke, but lax is way too versatile, so when your team gets scouted you have a huge disadvantage when you dont have 2 boxes filled with ou comps / the team support to scout other people (which some people dont wanna do anyways).

And some people quoted "Chansey"... well I play it a lot and I think it should be banned.

 

[Hotarubi]

14 minutes ago, ReDellaStrada47 said:

 

My 2 cents.

I think Snorlax is Uber. Too many hp + so much atck + so much spe. def.

 

The problem is not Curse or Body slam but Rest. At least for my team.
You can defeate a Snorlax burning it, for example, and the opponent has to switch to heal it; and you can use Roar/Whirlwind too.
Snoralx has too many hp to use Rest: full hp and no status.

 

So... I'm thinkg.
Some people say the problem is Body slam, others say it's Curse, I say it's Rest... MAY BE the problem it's just Snorlax itself?

 

Let me do some "maths" to see what Snorlax has more than others.

 

HP =160

Slaking 150. 65 s. def like Snorlax in def (but Curse!), 100 in def and Snorlax has 110 in s. def. More atk and speed... but that ability! Honestly the only Pokemon similar to Lax.

Hariyama 144. A bit more atk with 120. But look ad def (60) and s. def (60)!

Lapras? 130 with less s. def (95) a bit more of def (80 but no Curse) and a lot less (s.) atk 85.

Wailord? 170. 45 in each def... 90 in (s.) atk.

Wigglytuff?!?

 

ATK = 110  (half of these are not even OU)

Vaporeon has 130 in hp (Snorlax 160), 60 in def (65 + Curse), 95 in s. def (110 without weakness) and 110 in s. atk (Snorlax in atk).

Slaking and Hariyama as before.

Scizor 130. HALF hp, 100 def (110 Lax's s. def) and 80 s. def (Lax 65 def + Curse). No Curse, no Rest.

Ursaring 130. 75 def and s. def. 90 in hp

Rhydhon 130 and 120 in def. It's OK, but 105 in hp and...40 s. def (no Calm Mind or Amensia).

Machamp 130. 80 def and 85 s. def and 90 in hp too. Not bad buth not enough.

Breloom 130 but 60 hp, 80 def and 60 s. def

Absol 130 with 65 in hp and 60 both decences

Kingler 130 and 115 def... but 55 in hp (1/3 of Snorlax!) and 50 s. def

Pinsir 125 and 100 in def. 65 hp...

Gyarados 125 and also 100 in s. def. But 95 hp, no Rest, 4x Electric

Heracross 125. Quite good defences too (75 - 95) but HALF hp! And a some more weaknesses.

Armaldo 125 and 100 in def. But  80 s. def, HALF hp and some more weaknesses.

Granbull 120 and 90 hp. OK... 75 def, 60 s. def.

Hitmonlee 120. 110 in s. def. Oh, it's like Snorlax!!! No... 1/3 in hp! And even less def (53).

Donphan 120 in both atk and def with 60 in s. def. 90 in hp. It's not bad at all, but has nothing to boost s. def like Snorlax do with Course

Blaziken 120. HALF hp, and it's enough XD

Sharpedo 120 and half hp, and basically no defences XD

Crawdaunt 120. Less than half hp, both defences lower.

Kabutops 115 and 105 def. But 60 hp.

Zangose 115. HALF hp and 60 in both defences

Banette the same: 115, 65 hp, 65 def, 63 s. def

Arcanine SAME atk good. 90 hp good enough (?). 80 in each def, still good. And Morning Sun is as good as Rest. But not Curse.

Dodrio. I've never seen one! XD

Scyter same here XD

Swampert. Like Slaking is a perfect comparison, it has got Rest + Curse too. 90 in both defenceses is good, like the only 1 weakness. One of the most similar Pokemon to Snorlax, I think. The biggest different is that 100 in hp... guys the Snorlax problem IS HP!

Golem? Cactune?!? Flareon?!?

S. DEF =  110 (as with atk: most of these are not even OU)

Kekleon 120 and 70 in def, so it's the same or even better...(?) Nope 60 hp and 90 atk.

Tentacruel 120 and even 65 in def! But with HALF hp and a lot less atk (70/80).

Mr. Mime 120, 100 s. atk and 65 def. The difference? Try to guess: hp! 1/4

Hypno 115 and 70 in def. Oh, is even better than Snoralx! Half hp and 73 s. atk...

Gardevoir 115, with same defence (but no Curse) and a bit more of (s.) atk 125, but with 68 in hp and no Rest.

Hitmonlee as before. Hitmonchan too, and it also as 105 atk, but that damn 50 hp; the same for Hitmontop.

Slowking 110 perfect. 95 hp is good too and even 80 in def! 100 in s. atk is good enough. It has Slak-off. And Slowbro too, with Calm Mind he boosts s. def with a lot of def. But too many weaknesses and let's be serious 160 hp is a lot more.

Cradily 107, also 97 in def. But 81 in atk/s. atk and HALF hp.

The same for Blastoise.

Flareon again... lol

 

 

And this is important too:

 

And some people quoted "Chansey"... well I play it a lot and I think it should be banned.

 

I don't agree with rest being the issue but 160 base HP 5th highest in game is a lot of hp.

Swampert being smilar to snorlax I also disagree with,  Snorlax as a pokemon doesn't have the critical weakness to grass swampert has.

It's ability to tank special attacks and combined persistence to throw in a 30% chance of para

bodyslam with stab is my biggest issue with it.

Its both a special defensive wall and a physical sweeper if its running curse, what more is its astounding ability to take hits mainly due to curse setup and that massive amount of hp.

In some scenarios i could imagine its rest being a problem if its end battle and given the ability to wear down its opponent resting and relying on para to outspeed.

 

[LifeStyle]

@ReDellaStrada47 Why did you list like 50+ pokes (lost count idek) and compared those with Snorlax? I mean most of those aren't even OU and some of those don't even get decent usage in NU smh

[gbwead]

@ReDellaStrada47 I want to salute your dedication. You actually went through all the posts of the thread before posting and very few players would have done that at this point in the discussion.

[FinnTheMember]

21 pages wew~ Houndoom went to OU, Breloom is OU now too. And if there were some discussions about them , im sure not big deal as OU bans. Coz of Uber Tier. You cant use ubers except Doubles battles. Snorlax-Gengar-Salamance-Dragonite-.. And those pokes have many fans in game. Maybe this discussion endless coz of that.

 

Is it possible to nerf uber pokes and adding them to OU tier ? 

[RysPicz]

5 minutes ago, FinnTheMember said:

Is it possible to nerf uber pokes and adding them to OU tier ? 

I really wish it would be possible but nah. Dragons in our meta, without legendaries to balance them out, would again rampage over the tier. It's not really good to bring broken stuff to fix even more broken stuff.

Surprisingly enough I just spammed Lord gbwead with some hashtags:

#bansnorlax

#banwalls

#baneverything

#bringbackthedragons

#calcingischeating

 

or something like that

[ReDellaStrada47]

 

40 minutes ago, LifeStyle said:

@ReDellaStrada47 Why did you list like 50+ pokes (lost count idek) and compared those with Snorlax? I mean most of those aren't even OU and some of those don't even get decent usage in NU smh

Thanks for this! Now I can clarify it.

 

I listed some pokemons, and some are not even OU or UU. So what's the problem with Snorlax?
Is Curse? Is Rest? Is Bodyslam (or Return)? Some other pokemons have those!

 

Yes and no: all these are the problem! Because Snorlax (and its stats) is the problem.

If you want to ban something of Snorlax and not Snorlax itself, what are you gonna ban? Some players lose against Curse, other against Rest, others against Bodyslam. So the problem is Snorlax and all these things, you cannot ban just one.

[gbwead]

A lot of people seem to still support a Body Slam complex ban, so I will try to appeal again – probably the last time ^^ - to all the people in disbelief that this is the right path for our OU tier.

 

 

 

On 18/08/2016 at 2:23 AM, Spaintakula said:

I really think a complex ban on a move that tends to paralyze is a bit ridiculous.

On 19/08/2016 at 10:42 PM, Senile said:

don't try to spin it like you're just removing an uncompetitive element from the game just because the existence of a % lets you say it's RNG, you're just removing one of Snorlax's greater options to limit it, making it much easier to account for all of it's tools, and by extension making it easier to deal with.

 

I realise that I was wrong when I said that complex banning Body Slam doesn’t limit Snorlax. It absolutely does. However, removing an uncompetitive element from the game is what the Body Slam complex ban is about. The fact that this complex ban also limits Snorlax is an indirect consequence. Baton Pass got flat banned because it was broken for various reasons and the fact that all Baton Pass users were limited by this flat ban is not a valid reason to prevent this ban from happening. Basically, removing an uncompetitive element from the game will almost always limit the pokemons that benefit from using this uncompetitive element.

 

The reasons why Body Slam on Snorlax is uncompetitive have been explained thoroughly in this thread. The lack of switch ins to Snorlax should really be a red flag at this point. Some of you think this degree of uncompetitiveness is acceptable, others think it is not. You have all made up your mind about this, so I don’t think there is a need to repeat all the things that were said already about this specific issue.

 

 

 

 

On 17/08/2016 at 5:09 AM, BurntZebra said:

I disagree with the idea of complex banning body slam. Although it is a potential solution, it sets a horrible precedent for future tiering decisions.

On 18/08/2016 at 6:50 AM, Lazaro23 said:

test ban it, no fuck's given, juat don't complex ban body slam as we will want Some ubers back in the meta too

On 27/08/2016 at 4:53 PM, OrangeManiac said:

I hate to go all slippery slope but complex bans like this are a no no because things would get really fucking complicated when you would have to consider every move with every Pokemon and discuss all the possible variants of being able to ban single moves from Pokemon. 

This complex ban avoidance has been bothering me for quite some time. If complex bans can’t happen because they set a bad precedent, why is there – among the different categories of ban – a ban category called “complex ban”? If complex banning is not an option, it should not appear in our tiering policy.

 

I decided to do some research and look into smogon tiers. You can’t imagine how surprised I was when I realised that Smogon, as much as they try to avoid complex bans, aren’t scared to make the tough decisions to have some special complex bans. In gen 6 OU, Smogon chose to complex ban the object Soul Dew instead of banning Latios and Latias.

Spoiler

I am coming for you Thick Club Marowak ^^ 

I later on found out that the Drough and Drizzle abilities are banned in all tiers except OU. This also seems like a complex ban. And then, we have the extremely complicated Baton Pass clause that could also be considered like a complex ban.

My point here is that pokemon battling is not a simple game and our current tiering attitude, where we try to overly simplify everything, doesn’t serve the players any good. Sometimes the controversial complex ban is the right decision.

 

 

 

 

On 19/08/2016 at 3:21 AM, DoubleJ said:

the precedent has already been set that there will not be any complex bans in PokeMMO. The tier council has stood by this on countless occasions and developers aren't in favor of this either (at least from my experience in the past).

Sorry Nik if I quote you out of context, but I really feel you said it best in the Confusion thread:

On 17/09/2016 at 5:11 PM, NikhilR said:

It's stupid to keep things in the game which do nothing but amplify the role of rng and at the same time while banning it basically has no negative impact on the metagame. 

The fact that Body Slam - or Confuse Ray - has never been banned before on PokeMMO or by Smogon doesn't mean our hands are tied and we should just accept the fact that this game sucks when we could make it better. I am not saying Body Slam should be banned here, just saying that it should be an option.

 

 

 

On 16/08/2016 at 5:12 PM, Gunthug said:

Our thoughts on complex bans are simply that they should only be used in very special circumstances where a standard ban would be inadequate to address the problem. If the problem is that Snorlax's body slam is terrorizing the tier, a standard snorlax ban would solve that (assuming the ban criteria was met, of course). 

I get that complex bans should be a solution of last resort, but I honnestly think we are at the point where it is do or die. From a tiering perspective, a test ban is ideal, but I doubt we can afford one. PokeMMO metagames evolve extremely slowly and there is so much on the line with this Snorlax decision. All tiers will be affected by this for the longest time. For these reasons, a Snorlax test ban would reasonably last 2-3 months minimum; in order to analyse the Laxless meta, we will have to wait for that meta to evolve to a stable state. Then, if we realise banning Snorlax is a bad idea, we would return to this current meta which will also take a lot of time. During all this testing and readapting phase, the UU and NU tiers would change drastically just because of the testing. Overall, testing might seem like the right thing to do, but it is hardly a realistic solution - or at least it is somewhat of a cruel solution regarding the players that will go through a lot of trouble just for that test. A Body Slam complex ban on Snorlax might be difficult to justify, but it is definetly worth the trouble of verifying if it is justifiable. 

Edited September 26, 2016 by gbwead

[RysPicz]

Honestly, right now, in this situation.. any decision is fine, as long as it's actually made, so we all will finally know what we're standing on.

 

Please, TC, stop stalling and just do what you're supposed to do. I realise it's not simple without full council but the discussion- except for yesterday's entertaining posts of our OU king- got pretty stale during past few days.

[Gunthug]

The TC is split on the decision and we seem to be awaiting new blood before we make the decision. (My mind is made up, so not really anything I can do to speed up the process). Whining about it won't help, though maybe it'll score you some meaningless likes? Is that what you're shooting for?

 

edit: for those wondering, my opinion is that snorlax exerts an unhealthy influence on the Ou tier and should therefore be suspect tested for at least a month, as is standard for unhealthy bans. 

 

Edit2 @gbwead just saw your post, there's a lot in there to address so it'll have to wait until after work 

[Senile]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

I realise that I was wrong when I said that complex banning Body Slam doesn’t limit Snorlax. It absolutely does. However, removing an uncompetitive element from the game is what the Body Slam complex ban is about. The fact that this complex ban also limits Snorlax is an indirect consequence. Baton Pass got flat banned because it was broken for various reasons and the fact that all Baton Pass users were limited by this flat ban is not a valid reason to prevent this ban from happening. Basically, removing an uncompetitive element from the game will almost always limit the pokemons that benefit from using this uncompetitive element.

 

The reasons why Body Slam on Snorlax is uncompetitive have been explained thoroughly in this thread. The lack of switch ins to Snorlax should really be a red flag at this point. Some of you think this degree of uncompetitiveness is acceptable, others think it is not. You have all made up your mind about this, so I don’t think there is a need to repeat all the things that were said already about this specific issue.

 

 

This complex ban avoidance has been bothering me for quite some time. If complex bans can’t happen because they set a bad precedent, why is there – among the different categories of ban – a ban category called “complex ban”? If complex banning is not an option, it should not appear in our tiering policy.

 

I decided to do some research and look into smogon tiers. You can’t imagine how surprised I was when I realised that Smogon, as much as they try to avoid complex bans, aren’t scared to make the tough decisions to have some special complex bans. In gen 6 OU, Smogon chose to complex ban the object Soul Dew instead of banning Latios and Latias.

  Hide contents

I am coming for you Thick Club Marowak ^^ 

I later on found out that the Drough and Drizzle abilities are banned in all tiers except OU. This also seems like a complex ban. And then, we have the extremely complicated Baton Pass clause that could also be considered like a complex ban.

My point here is that pokemon battling is not a simple game and our current tiering attitude, where we try to overly simplify everything, doesn’t serve the players any good. Sometimes the controversial complex ban is the right decision.

My main sticking point here is that what you're talking about aren't complex bans. Soul Dew is just banned, just like how they just ban Mega Stones for OP megas instead of banning the Mega pokemon themselves; You could argue that it's an arbitrary sticking point, but it really isn't. Is saying "Latios and Latias are banned" really any more or less complex than saying "Soul Dew is banned"? If anything, it's less complex, because it's essentially having 1 less thing banned. The reason banning Body Slam on Snorlax is a complex ban is because it's specifically banning a move on Snorlax in particular. Complex bans aren't simply any ban that isn't a flat pokemon ban, they're exactly what they sound like; Complex bans.

 

Likewise, Drought and Drizzle being banned in lower tiers isn't a complex ban, just like how our flat Baton Pass ban in PokeMMO isn't a complex ban. The reason they're banned in lower tiers is because Drought and Drizzle are pretty consistently considered OP, or at least undesirable, for every pokemon they're found on. A blanket weather ban (except for Hail, because it sucks, and Sand Stream, because the only non-OU to have it is Hippopotas and most abusers are OU) isn't a complex ban, it's a flat ban on weather. It's just like how banning Arena Trap, which was discussed a while ago, wouldn't be a complex ban. With that being said, although it's a flat ban, you have to be careful of side affects, just like how you wouldn't flat ban Body Slam because of Snorlax, since that'd affect a ton of other pokemon.

 

The Baton Pass clause is a complex ban; Of course, it's also an example of a terrible complex ban. You might not be aware of the history of it, but it's gone through a ton of changes over several months, because the initial clause ended up not being sufficient to stop Baton Pass. It went from 3 Baton Pass per team, to 1 Baton Pass per team, to 1 Baton Pass per team and you can't have both Baton Pass and a move that boosts Speed and another stat. It was a complex ban that resulted in not actually fixing the problem, and taking months and multiple adjustments before being left alone, instead of just banning Baton Pass.

 

The fact that complex banning Body Slam on Snorlax is just a complex ban to limit it is absolutely relevant to the discussion, because it is, in fact, a complex ban. Sure, the Baton Pass flat ban here negatively affected every pokemon that had it, but for the most part, people seemed to agree that Baton Pass was negative on pretty much every pokemon that actually ran it, so the consequences of a flat ban like that were minimal. Is complex banning Body Slam just to make Snorlax weak enough that it can be kept in OU without being too good something that should be done? I don't think so at all, but your comparisons to Smogon bans aren't accurate; Not only are they not complex bans, they're also inherently different.

[gbwead]

1 hour ago, Senile said:

My main sticking point here is that what you're talking about aren't complex bans. Soul Dew is just banned, just like how they just ban Mega Stones for OP megas instead of banning the Mega pokemon themselves; You could argue that it's an arbitrary sticking point, but it really isn't. Is saying "Latios and Latias are banned" really any more or less complex than saying "Soul Dew is banned"? If anything, it's less complex, because it's essentially having 1 less thing banned. The reason banning Body Slam on Snorlax is a complex ban is because it's specifically banning a move on Snorlax in particular. Complex bans aren't simply any ban that isn't a flat pokemon ban, they're exactly what they sound like; Complex bans.

 

Likewise, Drought and Drizzle being banned in lower tiers isn't a complex ban, just like how our flat Baton Pass ban in PokeMMO isn't a complex ban. The reason they're banned in lower tiers is because Drought and Drizzle are pretty consistently considered OP, or at least undesirable, for every pokemon they're found on. A blanket weather ban (except for Hail, because it sucks, and Sand Stream, because the only non-OU to have it is Hippopotas and most abusers are OU) isn't a complex ban, it's a flat ban on weather. It's just like how banning Arena Trap, which was discussed a while ago, wouldn't be a complex ban. With that being said, although it's a flat ban, you have to be careful of side affects, just like how you wouldn't flat ban Body Slam because of Snorlax, since that'd affect a ton of other pokemon.

 

The Baton Pass clause is a complex ban; Of course, it's also an example of a terrible complex ban. You might not be aware of the history of it, but it's gone through a ton of changes over several months, because the initial clause ended up not being sufficient to stop Baton Pass. It went from 3 Baton Pass per team, to 1 Baton Pass per team, to 1 Baton Pass per team and you can't have both Baton Pass and a move that boosts Speed and another stat. It was a complex ban that resulted in not actually fixing the problem, and taking months and multiple adjustments before being left alone, instead of just banning Baton Pass.

 

The fact that complex banning Body Slam on Snorlax is just a complex ban to limit it is absolutely relevant to the discussion, because it is, in fact, a complex ban. Sure, the Baton Pass flat ban here negatively affected every pokemon that had it, but for the most part, people seemed to agree that Baton Pass was negative on pretty much every pokemon that actually ran it, so the consequences of a flat ban like that were minimal. Is complex banning Body Slam just to make Snorlax weak enough that it can be kept in OU without being too good something that should be done? I don't think so at all, but your comparisons to Smogon bans aren't accurate; Not only are they not complex bans, they're also inherently different.

You are right, I don't know much about these tiers. I litteraly just checked the tierlists, saw a couple of things that were banned and started to read some articles about these things. 

 

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that Mega Stones, unlike Soul Dew, are actually creating a new pokemon. A Latias that chooses to use a Soul Dew instead of a Leftovers is still a Latias even though Latias with Soul Dew is OP. A Gyarados that chooses to use a Mega Stone instead of a Life Orb is completly different from a regular Gyarados. They might share the same pokedex number, but Mega Gyarados and Gyarados are different. What I am trying to say here is that Soul Dew is completly useless on anything that isn't Latios or Latias. The fact that Mega Stones are also useless for pokemons that can't mega evolve is imo irrelevant since people see a mega evolutions as a new pokemons entirely. Saying Lucario is OP with a Mega Stone is somewhat misleading since Lucario with a Mega Stone is no longer a Lucario. 

 

Banning Soul Dew is the equivalent of limiting Latios and Latias. The same could be said about banning Natural Cure on only Chansey, banning Thick Club on only Marowak or potentially banning a move on a specific pokemon. If the ban is specific to a certain pokemon, the ban becomes complex by technicality from what I can tell. I guess it could be argued that Soul Dew Latios/Latias is so overwhelmingly strong that it is more simple to just ban the item instead of the pokemon. I think the same could be said about Snorlax and Body Slam to some lesser degree; instead of banning the entire pokemon, why not ban only what is broken about it? In the case of Snorlax, if it is possible to determine specifically what is broken about it, a complex ban somewhat make sense. I am not saying Latios should be banned instead of Soul Dew, but simply trying to put in perspective that complex bans are an option.

 

As for Drizzle and Drough, saying that these abilities are only too strong for pokemon of lower tiers is a pretty big statement. Surely, this analysis has many layers; Drizzle and Drough are not broken necessarily since they are not broken in OU; the pokemons that have access to these abilities are usually not broken without them. I haven't looked into that ban in details - so once again feel all free to correct me if I am wrong - but Smogon basically determined that Drizzle and Drough were only broken in lower tiers rather than flat banning the lower tiers pokemon or flat banning the abilities in all tiers. This sounds a lot that our PokeMMO situation; Body Slam is not necessarily a problem in general and Snorlax might not be a problem. If only Snorlax with Body Slam is the issue, that is what we should focus on imo.

 

I am really not trying to imply that our flat Baton Pass ban is a complex ban. That would be quite stupid. I was attempting to show that nearly all bans - whether it is a flat ban or a complex ban - are limiting some pokemons. Unless tiering becomes a popularity contest, people agreeing that the negative consequences of our flat Baton Pass ban are minimal is hardly a valid reason to justify if something should be banned or not. Considering the amount of support in this thread for a Body Slam complex ban, it would be quite easy to make this ban happen. A consensus is always good, but that doesn't always lead to the best decision.

 

From our tiering policy:

Spoiler

 

Banning Types: Flat Bans and Complex Bans

 

There are two types of bans, Flat Bans and Complex Bans. Flat bans are used for general situations, when a pokemon, move, ability, etc. meet some sort of banning criteria, at which point, they are banned in their entirety. However, in complex situations where a flat ban would be either ineffective or heavily unfavorable for some reason, complex bans can be used. Typically, these are used for a situation where one specific issue cannot be sorted out, such as with the Shell Smash + Baton Pass ban which took place in Generation 5 within lower tiers. In this case, there were multiple pokemon which could abuse this combination, meaning a flat ban on all of these pokemon was excessive. Likewise, Shell Smash itself wasn't a problem, as there were many legitimate users of it, and the same applied to Baton Pass. As this was a complex situation in which no Flat Ban method was ideal, a Complex Ban was used.

 

Is flat banning Snorlax heavily unfavorable for some reason? Yes. The only way to flat ban Snorlax at this point would be to test ban it which leads to numerous problems, namely an unstable OU metagame and lower tier disruptions. Some people also believe the Laxless metagame will be incredibly booring because Chansey would be complete cancer. I personally disagree with that last statement, but it remains a potential reason why some people might see this flat ban as unfavorable. 

 

We are in a very delicate situation and expecting a simple solution to our OU problem is unrealistic. Why is a complex ban not an option? Why does it set a bad precedent for Body Slam on Snorlax and not for Shell Smash + Baton Pass in Gen 5? Complex banning Body Slam limits Snorlax just like complex banning Shell Smash + Baton Pass limit all the users of these 2 moves.

 

The bottom line is that, if we are able to pinpoint that Body Slam is what is problematic about Snorlax, I think we should not hesitate to complex ban. 

 

[Senile]

5 minutes ago, gbwead said:

You are right, I don't know much about these tiers. I litteraly just checked the tierlists, saw a couple of things that were banned and started to read some articles about these things. 

 

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that Mega Stones, unlike Soul Dew, are actually creating a new pokemon. A Latias that chooses to use a Soul Dew instead of a Leftovers is still a Latias even though Latias with Soul Dew is OP. A Gyarados that chooses to use a Mega Stone instead of a Life Orb is completly different from a regular Gyarados. They might share the same pokedex number, but Mega Gyarados and Gyarados are different. What I am trying to say here is that Soul Dew is completly useless on anything that isn't Latios or Latias. The fact that Mega Stones are also useless for pokemons that can't mega evolve is imo irrelevant since people see a mega evolutions as a new pokemons entirely. Saying Lucario is OP with a Mega Stone is somewhat misleading since Lucario with a Mega Stone is no longer a Lucario. 

 

Banning Soul Dew is the equivalent of limiting Latios and Latias. The same could be said about banning Natural Cure on only Chansey, banning Thick Club on only Marowak or potentially banning a move on a specific pokemon. If the ban is specific to a certain pokemon, the ban becomes complex by technicality from what I can tell. I guess it could be argued that Soul Dew Latios/Latias is so overwhelmingly strong that it is more simple to just ban the item instead of the pokemon. I think the same could be said about Snorlax and Body Slam to some lesser degree; instead of banning the entire pokemon, why not ban only what is broken about it? In the case of Snorlax, if it is possible to determine specifically what is broken about it, a complex ban somewhat make sense. I am not saying Latios should be banned instead of Soul Dew, but simply trying to put in perspective that complex bans are an option.

I mean, I understand what you're trying to say, and I get the idea that "the ban is specific to a certain pokemon, because only x can use y so isn't it effectively a complex ban?", but no. A complex ban is only a complex ban if the rule itself is complicated. That's all it boils down to. It's not "Soul Dew is banned on Latios/Latios", just that Soul Dew is banned. Yes, Soul Dew only does anything relevant on Latios/Latias, but there is a distinction. Also, the difference between Thick Club and Soul Dew is that Thick Club also doubles Cubone's attack stat, not just Marowak's, and Cubone is undoubtedly not broken. However, both Latios and Latias are pretty clearly broken with Soul Dew, so you could argue that the problem aren't the pokemon themselves, but Soul Dew; It's an item that's so good, that on the 2 pokemon that can use it, it's very easily OP. So, you just flat ban Soul Dew.

 

5 minutes ago, gbwead said:

 

As for Drizzle and Drough, saying that these abilities are only too strong for pokemon of lower tiers is a pretty big statement. Surely, this analysis has many layers; Drizzle and Drough are not broken necessarily since they are not broken in OU; the pokemons that have access to these abilities are usually not broken without them. I haven't looked into that ban in details - so once again feel all free to correct me if I am wrong - but Smogon basically determined that Drizzle and Drough were only broken in lower tiers rather than flat banning the lower tiers pokemon or flat banning the abilities in all tiers. This sounds a lot that our PokeMMO situation; Body Slam is not necessarily a problem in general and Snorlax might not be a problem. If only Snorlax with Body Slam is the issue, that is what we should focus on imo.

I mean, it's a pretty big statement, but considering they ARE banned from lower tiers, it's pretty clear what the judgement was. You're right that the pokemon that have those abilities aren't broken without them, in fact, without these abilities they kind of suck. I'm not sure why the fact that the abilities aren't banned in OU has anything to do with anything. They're not necessarily broken in OU, because it's OU. OU can deal with weather, especially since they have the Sand Streamers (Hippo and Tyranitar) as highly viable options, and Weather got mega-nerfed in gen 6. Even then, Rain can definitely be viable in OU, and has seen some use before. Again, there's a distinction between "Drought and Drizzle are banned" and "Drizzle is banned from Politoed and Drought is banned from Ninetales", even if they're effectively the same thing (well, they kind of aren't, but they're pretty close).

 

5 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I am really not trying to imply that our flat Baton Pass ban is a complex ban. That would be quite stupid. I was attempting to show that nearly all bans - whether it is a flat ban or a complex ban - are limiting some pokemons. Unless tiering becomes a popularity contest, people agreeing that the negative consequences of our flat Baton Pass ban are minimal is hardly a valid reason to justify if something should be banned or not. Considering the amount of support in this thread for a Body Slam complex ban, it would be quite easy to make this ban happen. A consensus is always good, but that doesn't always lead to the best decision.

 

From our tiering policy:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Banning Types: Flat Bans and Complex Bans

 

There are two types of bans, Flat Bans and Complex Bans. Flat bans are used for general situations, when a pokemon, move, ability, etc. meet some sort of banning criteria, at which point, they are banned in their entirety. However, in complex situations where a flat ban would be either ineffective or heavily unfavorable for some reason, complex bans can be used. Typically, these are used for a situation where one specific issue cannot be sorted out, such as with the Shell Smash + Baton Pass ban which took place in Generation 5 within lower tiers. In this case, there were multiple pokemon which could abuse this combination, meaning a flat ban on all of these pokemon was excessive. Likewise, Shell Smash itself wasn't a problem, as there were many legitimate users of it, and the same applied to Baton Pass. As this was a complex situation in which no Flat Ban method was ideal, a Complex Ban was used.

 

Is flat banning Snorlax heavily unfavorable for some reason? Yes. The only way to flat ban Snorlax at this point would be to test ban it which leads to numerous problems, namely an unstable OU metagame and lower tier disruptions. Some people also believe the Laxless metagame will be incredibly booring because Chansey would be complete cancer. I personally disagree with that last statement, but it remains a potential reason why some people might see this flat ban as unfavorable. 

 

We are in a very delicate situation and expecting a simple solution to our OU problem is unrealistic. Why is a complex ban not an option? Why does it set a bad precedent for Body Slam on Snorlax and not for Shell Smash + Baton Pass in Gen 5? Complex banning Body Slam limits Snorlax just like complex banning Shell Smash + Baton Pass limit all the users of these 2 moves.

 

The bottom line is that, if we are able to pinpoint that Body Slam is what is problematic about Snorlax, I think we should not hesitate to complex ban. 

 

The key difference between all the complex bans you're talking about and Body Slam on Snorlax is that the complex bans affect multiple pokemon. Why did they ban Smash Pass instead of just moving up Gorebyss? Because Gorebyss isn't the only pokemon that can Smash Pass, there's several, and they're all problematic. It's explained right in the tiering policy bit you quoted, when there are multiple abusers of something and a flat ban is undesirable for whatever reason is typically the time you complex ban. Body Slam on Snorlax would not be such a time.

 

I'm not here to argue about whether or not complex banning Body Slam would be healthier or more desirable or anything like that, with that being said, the only distinction I'm trying to make clear is the line between flat bans and complex bans, as you're mixing up what are effectively flat bans with complex bans.

 

granted, I don't agree with complex banning bslam, but I'm not really gonna bother arguing about it; I already said all I had to say on the subject before.