[OU Discussion] Snorlax [Test banned]

[Gunthug]

9 minutes ago, LifeStyle said:

It's been made pretty clear by most comments here that Body Slam is the only thing wrong with Snorlax.

Is a Body Slam ban just not possible or what? If not, then just ban Snorlax, pretty simple.

Ok it wouldn't let me reply to this thread till I got rid of that fucking quote above. Thanks a lot mobile version

 

anyway, believe it or not, there are those on tier council who don't think lax should be banned at all. And we're not rushing a decision just because some community members are getting antsy. Especially when we don't even have a full council 

[KaynineXL]

I don't think Snorlax should be banned either although I do agree that Body Slam is what makes it problematic. A complex ban on Body Slam is what I'd like to see, but if that's not possible, just keep Snorlax, removing it gives us other issues anyway.

[LifeStyle]

11 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

Ok it wouldn't let me reply to this thread till I got rid of that fucking quote above. Thanks a lot mobile version

 

anyway, believe it or not, there are those on tier council who don't think lax should be banned at all. And we're not rushing a decision just because some community members are getting antsy. Especially when we don't even have a full council 

I don't want Snorlax to be banned either, I think it's good to have it as a special wall that can actually strike back at shit, unlike Chansey who just sits there waiting to get baited.

Like I said earlier, if Body Slam was banned, Snorlax could actually be a healthy fit in our current meta. If Body Slam stays, then Snorlax is cancer.

[xilias]

Just now, KaynineXL said:

I don't think Snorlax should be banned either although I do agree that Body Slam is what makes it problematic. A complex ban on Body Slam is what I'd like to see, but if that's not possible, just keep Snorlax, removing it gives us other issues anyway.

But the "keep something broken in the tier to avoid some other broken thing to appear"isn't how our TC works,if it's bad,it should be out.

[KaynineXL]

9 minutes ago, xilias said:

But the "keep something broken in the tier to avoid some other broken thing to appear"isn't how our TC works,if it's bad,it should be out.

I didn't say it was broken

[xilias]

3 minutes ago, KaynineXL said:

I didn't say it was broken

 

23 minutes ago, KaynineXL said:

I don't think Snorlax should be banned either although I do agree that Body Slam is what makes it problematic. A complex ban on Body Slam is what I'd like to see, but if that's not possible, just keep Snorlax, removing it gives us other issues anyway.

I think it's pretty clear that you said that snorlax with bodyslam is problematic,and that if we can't complex ban then we should keep the "problematic bodyslam lax" cuz if we remove it we'll have other issues anyway .I'm in favor of a body slam ban,but if we can't complex ban it,then let's ban the whole thing because keeping the meta how it is now is bad.

[DaftCoolio]

5 hours ago, gbwead said:

Protect itself? Is this a joke? Snorlax doesn't need any protecting since its very presence is enough to give an unforgiving advantage to whoever uses it. You lose momentum scouting lax, you risk getting paralysed as you scout and we all know at this point how detrimental a paralysis can be. Forcing people to use a pivot + 1/2 moveset counters just to deal with lax is also not healthy for the OU metagame.

To scout a pokemon that has such a wide move pool like snorlax only seems logical, whether you lose momentum or not it beats losing 1-2 of your pokemon. While it is safe to assume movesets on most pokemon there are a handful where doing so is not the brightest idea. Nidoking for example is similar in that it too has a large amount of viable moves and it can be dangerous to assume its moveset. 

 

Snorlax is also the most commonly used pokemon in OU atm (i think i heard someone say that) it makes sense for people devote moves to deal with it. And its not like those moves are specifically for snorlax and no other pokemon. Haze stops alot of set up pokemon so does ww/roar, not just useful for snorlax.

 

2 minutes ago, xilias said:

 

I think it's pretty clear that you said that snorlax with bodyslam is problematic,and that if we can't complex ban then we should keep the "problematic bodyslam lax" cuz if we remove it we'll have other issues anyway .I'm in favor of a body slam ban,but if we can't complex ban it,then let's ban the whole thing because keeping the meta how it is now is bad.

There is a difference between problematic and broken

[KaynineXL]

18 minutes ago, xilias said:

 

I think it's pretty clear that you said that snorlax with bodyslam is problematic,and that if we can't complex ban then we should keep the "problematic bodyslam lax" cuz if we remove it we'll have other issues anyway .I'm in favor of a body slam ban,but if we can't complex ban it,then let's ban the whole thing because keeping the meta how it is now is bad.

Just because something us problematic, doesn't mean its broken. Every Pokemon in their respective tier should have a certain aspect of them that is problematic(otherwise there isn't any point using that Pokemon).

 

Some people think Curse is what makes Snorlax problematic, which is true but I along with many others think Body Slam is most problematic. Is it so problematic that it makes it ban worthy? Well that's debatable, but for me, I don't think so.

 

I see why you thought that though, I didn't exactly go too in-depth. My bad.

Edited September 20, 2016 by KaynineXL

[NikhilR]

Is Snorlax unhealthy / overcentralizing? Yes it is. When you're forced to run 2 unreliable pokemon to handle that beast, it puts a lot of restriction on your teambuilding and you end up being unable to run pokemon that could break through your opponent's defense or you end up being unable to handle a particular threat. Skarm is hardly a safe bet when it has no form of recovery and can't continuously keep taking a +1 fire punch and if it gets parahaxed, it becomes harder to phaze. Also WW / Roar doesn't accomplish anything when Lax is the last pokemon and can end up using Skarm as set up bait.  Milo getting that def boost due to paralysis means fuck all when it can't recover and thus doesn't allow it to counter other things reliably. Again if people feel that Skarmory+Milo are valid answers, then please do watch some of the replays mentioned in the thread. Changing a moveslot for one pokemon is fair but changing the entire ev spread of one pokemon to deal with another is unhealthy, like those suggesting to run defensive Machamp / Hariyama. I think those that were making comparisons of Snorlax to Tyranitar were trying to bring about the point of how Tyranitar can be countered by running bulky fighting types which eventually leads to unhealthiness. 

 

Can those who enjoy our current metagame tell me what is enjoyable about it and what forms of diversity is present? It's not like I haven't tried to come up with non-standard answers like running a Knock Off + Taunt Sableye to deal with Curselax to end up getting burnt by Firepunch and then running a sub-punch Ludicolo to abuse the Skarm / Starmie / Lax core to only realise that focus punch is pulled off after Curselax has become +1 which means it uses that as set up bait too, meaning that for such a Ludicolo to work properly, you need to focus punch on the switch in. Can those who say that Lax can be dealt with and that players haven't come up with an innovative set, suggest to the rest of us what can be used? From all I know depending on Lax's set, it has specific counters and that just basically means you have to run 2-3 pokemon to guarantee yourself that you won't get screwed by it. I can honestly say that I enjoyed the Chansey metagame a lot more because people HAVE come up with sets to beat Chansey like Growth Jolt, Growth Venusaur, Sub - Curse Haunter etc.

Edited September 21, 2016 by NikhilR

[Hotarubi]

2 hours ago, NikhilR said:

Is Snorlax unhealthy / overcentralizing? Yes it is. When you're forced to run 2 unreliable pokemon to handle that beast, it puts a lot of restriction on your teambuilding and you end up being unable to run pokemon that could break through your opponent's defense or you end up being unable to handle a particular threat. Skarm is hardly a safe bet when it has no form of recovery and can't continuously keep taking a +1 fire punch and if it gets parahaxed, it becomes harder to phaze. Also WW / Roar doesn't accomplish anything when Lax is the last pokemon and can end up using Skarm as set up bait.  Milo getting that def boost due to paralysis means fuck all when it can't recover and thus doesn't allow it to counter other things reliably. Again if people feel that Skarmory+Milo are valid answers, then please do watch some of the replays mentioned in the thread. Changing a moveslot for one pokemon is fair but changing the entire ev spread of one pokemon to deal with another is unhealthy, like those suggesting to run defensive Machamp / Hariyama. I think those that were making comparisons of Snorlax to Tyranitar were trying to bring about the point of how Tyranitar can be countered by running bulky fighting types which eventually leads to unhealthiness. 

 

Can those who enjoy our current metagame tell me what is enjoyable about it and what forms of diversity is present? It's not like I haven't tried to come up with non-standard answers like running a Knock Off + Taunt Sableye to deal with Curselax to end up getting burnt by Firepunch and then running a sub-punch Ludicolo to abuse the Skarm / Starmie / Lax core to only realise that focus punch is pulled off after Curselax has become +1 which means it uses that as set up bait too, meaning that for such a Ludicolo to work properly, you need to focus punch on the switch in. Can those who say that Lax can be dealt with and that players haven't come up with an innovative set, suggest to the rest of us what can be used? From all I know depending on Lax's set, it has specific counters and that just basically means you have to run 2-3 pokemon to guarantee yourself that you won't get screwed by it. I can honestly say that I enjoyed the Chansey metagame a lot more because people HAVE come up with sets to beat Chansey like Growth Jolt, Growth Venusaur, Sub - Curse Haunter etc.

To be consistent with my responses. That video of those matches shows more than enough valid proof IMO.

I've got the experience both using Snorlax and being against it just as Forfiter had said.

This seems like a no brainer to me.

It shouldn't be in the OU tier.

[Hotarubi]

So I'll take the time to point out my issues with snorlax in this tier.

51% para chance with spam of a few body slams.

High spdef and 160 base hp with rest to support itself .

CURSE allowing it to sweep late game making it much more viable and effective choice as a special wall than chansey.

The ability to be both a spdef wall and a sweeper I believe is a bit OP in this class of pokemon. 
Within the OU tier I don't think anyone can name a pokemon that is more difficult to deal with.

It makes it easier to win having snorlax on your side , and hard to win having snorlax against you.

The counters for snorlax that we currently have are truly not viable in this gen.

Fact stands that Something must be done about this.

My general fix to snorlax involved a genger a ttar and metagross.

Only metagross is allowed in OU.

 

I feel that it causes a huge imbalance. I agree with it being over-centralized and I see it as OP for the tier with its current available move pool.

 

 

[DaftCoolio]

11 minutes ago, Hotarubi said:

It makes it easier to win having snorlax on your side , and hard to win having snorlax against you.

 

if u both have lax does that cancel it out?

[Hotarubi]

46 minutes ago, DaftCoolio said:

if u both have lax does that cancel it out?

I think you could call that match fair. If you "both" have it on your party and both benefit from its use.

However isn't that what we want to avoid?

It becoming the Literal OU STAPLE.

[DaftCoolio]

19 minutes ago, Hotarubi said:

I think you could call that match fair. If you "both" have it on your party and both benefit from its use.

However isn't that what we want to avoid?

It becoming the Literal OU STAPLE.

Just because a pokemon has high usage doesn't mean its broken

[DaftCoolio]

8 minutes ago, Xatu said:

It's alot more than "some community members getting antsy" were talking every comp OU player in the game right now. 

Well its not every comp OU player and there is no point rushing a rather important decision

 

9 minutes ago, Xatu said:

In fact, we should vote for the new members. 

this is why we dont vote for TC members

[DrButler]

I dont really care if it stays or goes to uber, but id like to adjust, because i think that if it stays theres a few fancy breeds to do. Last time i bred a lax it went to uber 2 days later and i dont wanna waste that money again, so when will something be decided?

 

And what are the chances that we can have a talk about spectating tournaments again? Because if lax stays, we gotta do something about scouting. I dont really give a fuck about any other poke, but lax is way too versatile, so when your team gets scouted you have a huge disadvantage when you dont have 2 boxes filled with ou comps / the team support to scout other people (which some people dont wanna do anyways).

[OrangeManiac]

We all to seem to be bashing Snorlax so hard from all different sides so I decided to give it some love. Thank you Snorlax for being the go to Special Offense check for so many players while still not being so obnoxiously good at it (like Chansey) that you make 90% of the special attackers in OU tier borderline unusable. You at least give those special attackers a legitimate chance to shine with pure attacking force instead of old Chansey meta gimmicks like Leech Seed + Growth Venusaur. Thank you for giving Alakazams, Offensive Starmies, Jolteons, Espeons, Magnetons, Kingdras the viability they diserve. You prevent Chansey for making these Pokemon sad by giving it some massive pressure with your existence.

 

And before half the thread jumps on my throat for "keeping a broken Pokemon in tier to check other broken stuff", when you're arguing whether the metagame is better without a certain Pokemon you kinda have to look at all aspects of the metagame before and after. What comes to this uncompetitiveness argument, not sure if I'm buying that. There has to be something more to it with the Pokemon because every paraflincher would be Ubers then. Calling Snorlax offensive ubers is really unused argument throughout this thread which I'm fairly surprised about considering Curse set still is and ever will be nasty, however it's notably less bad because sleeping Snorlax can actually be hit hard by numerous specs users which Snorlax ironically makes more viable with its existence.

[codylramey]

Honestly if it wasnt for the bslam para lax wouldnt be that bad to deal with. If it wasnt for how hard he hits he also wouldnt be that hard to deal with. If it wasnt for his bulk he wouldnt be that hard to deal with. If it wasnt for his access to curse he wouldnt be that hard to deal with. You take any of these things away and lax isnt broken. But think about it for a second, what are snorlaxes main weaknesses? He is physically squishy and he has a low speed. But he can negate his speed problem with parahax. He can negate the fact that parahax is only 30% with his ability to switch in on most any non-physical pokemon pretty much guaranteeing a para on something. And he can negate his physical squishyness with curse. What other pokemon do you know has the ability to negate all of its weaknesses the way lax does? To put the icing on the cake, he easily rests off any status due to his high health allowing him to switch into anything that doesnt hit like a cannon and he cant even be poisoned to help wear him down.

[LegendP]

ban it

[XPLOZ]

22 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

You at least give those special attackers a legitimate chance to shine with pure attacking force instead of old Chansey meta gimmicks like Leech Seed + Growth Venusaur.

???

[gbwead]

15 minutes ago, XPLOZ said:

???

I think he meant Leech Seed Venusaur or Growth Venusaur, and not LS+Growth Venusaur. Leech Seed Venusaur was always pretty standard, so I never saw it as a gimmick. As for Growth Venusaur, it has become so popular that, even though it was a gimmick at some point, it really can no longer be considered one today. I see more Block+CM Slowbro, Taunt+Wish Gardevoir and Haunter as the gimmicks special attackers of that meta.

[jakesevtraining]

I use both snorlax and chansey on my team 100% of the time

 

 

 

 

people hate duel me :)

[BigShotJoe]

On 9/22/2016 at 3:49 AM, gbwead said:

I think he meant Leech Seed Venusaur or Growth Venusaur, and not LS+Growth Venusaur. Leech Seed Venusaur was always pretty standard, so I never saw it as a gimmick. As for Growth Venusaur, it has become so popular that, even though it was a gimmick at some point, it really can no longer be considered one today. I see more Block+CM Slowbro, Taunt+Wish Gardevoir and Haunter as the gimmicks special attackers of that meta.

No, he meant a Venusaur with Leech Seed and Growth. The Leech Seed heals more damage than Chansey can take per turn while you set up Growth to go for a sweep.

[gbwead]

26 minutes ago, BigShotJoe said:

No, he meant a Venusaur with Leech Seed and Growth. The Leech Seed heals more damage than Chansey can take per turn while you set up Growth to go for a sweep.

1. You don't need Leech Seed for recovery if you play Growth:

+1 252+ SpA Overgrow Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 127-150 (35.5 - 42%) -- 88.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

35% of Chansey's total HP is 125 HP. This implies that if a low HP Venusaur uses Giga Drain after using Growth it will recover 62 HP + the leftovers recovery. Chansey can only deal 50 dmg, so Venusaur comes out on top.

 

 

2. Leech Seed and Growth in the same moveset leaves Venusaur with only 2 coverage moves:

• Sludge Bomb + Giga Drain  
  Forretress, Metagross and Skarmory can wall this Venusaur completly.
   
• Giga Drain + HP Fire
  Arcanine, Charizard, Blaziken, Houndoom and Typhlosion can deal with that Venusaur easily.
   
• Sludge Bomb + HP Fire
  A Overgrow Grass Type that doesn't have a Grass damaging move, that is just sad. Venusaur would just not deal enough damage to a lot of threats like Starmie, Slowbro, Flygon, Swampert and several others.

Setting up just to get blocked instantly is the worst thing possible for a sweeper than will lose a lot of momentum. Without 3 coverage moves, Venusaur is just not very threathening.

Edited September 25, 2016 by gbwead

[BigShotJoe]

44 minutes ago, gbwead said:

1. You don't need Leech Seed for recovery if you play Growth:

+1 252+ SpA Overgrow Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 127-150 (35.5 - 42%) -- 88.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

35% of Chansey's total HP is 125 HP. This implies that if a low HP Venusaur uses Giga Drain after using Growth it will recover 62 HP + the leftovers recovery. Chansey can only deal 50 dmg, so Venusaur comes out on top.

 

 

2. Leech Seed and Growth in the same moveset leaves Venusaur with only 2 coverage moves:

• Sludge Bomb + Giga Drain  
  Forretress, Metagross and Skarmory can wall this Venusaur completly.
   
• Giga Drain + HP Fire
  Arcanine, Charizard, Blaziken, Houndoom and Typhlosion can deal with that Venusaur easily.
   
• Sludge Bomb + HP Fire
  A Overgrow Grass Type that doesn't have a Grass damaging move, that is just sad. Venusaur would just not deal enough damage to a lot of threats like Starmie, Slowbro, Flygon, Swampert and several others.

Setting up just to get blocked instantly is the worst thing possible for a sweeper than will lose a lot of momentum. Without 3 coverage moves, Venusaur is just not very threathening.

Nobody ever said it was the best for sweeping entire teams. They specifically said that it was used to killing Chansey, or did you miss the bold letters?