[OU Discussion] Snorlax [Test banned]

[Liberalisme]

We could also bring back Gengar!

Edited September 20, 2016 by Liberalisme

[gbwead]

1 hour ago, DoubleJ said:

If there is currently an "undeniable chaos" then shouldn't we wait to propose any bans until the meta has stabilized and players have learned how to use these new items, mechanics, and pokemon? 

This argument has saved Snorlax way too many times already. It is the very reason it was given a second chance during the reset.

A lot of people have posted in this thread to voice how sick and tired they were to see Snorlax ruin the OU tier. Not banning Snorlax would be equivalent to stalling until the implementation of new elements that would cause new chaos. 

[DaftCoolio]

44 minutes ago, gbwead said:

This argument has saved Snorlax way too many times already. It is the very reason it was given a second chance during the reset.

A lot of people have posted in this thread to voice how sick and tired they were to see Snorlax ruin the OU tier. Not banning Snorlax would be equivalent to stalling until the implementation of new elements that would cause new chaos. 

Sure a lot of people are saying they don't like lax but tiering isn't based on popularity (except for houndoom rip in peace). When the argument to ban it is "i dont like it when my counters get paralyzed but i dont want to run a cleric" its hard to agree with a ban

[gbwead]

22 minutes ago, DaftCoolio said:

Sure a lot of people are saying they don't like lax but tiering isn't based on popularity (except for houndoom rip in peace). When the argument to ban it is "i dont like it when my counters get paralyzed but i dont want to run a cleric" its hard to agree with a ban

I was refering to the fact that DoubleJ stated that the OU tier is popular when there is clear evidence in this thread that it isn't. Wait and see is a good tiering strategy when it is acceptable, when there is nothing at stake. On Showdown, it is acceptable, because the metagame doesn't get rocked by new features every 2 months. There is also no time component or ressource component on Showdown. In PokeMMO, asking people to wait and see has dire consequences. Asking players to invest themselves in a shitty meta is unacceptable on PokeMMO, but it would not be a big issue on Showdown imo.

 

Edit: This is also why it would have been foolish to have a complete reset and force PokeMMO players to endure a shitty Salamence, Dnite, Wobuffet and Tyranitar meta for months.

Edited September 20, 2016 by gbwead

[RysPicz]

Please, TC, make your decision before PSL begins.

[DoubleJ]

5 hours ago, gbwead said:

I was refering to the fact that DoubleJ stated that the OU tier is popular when there is clear evidence in this thread that it isn't. Wait and see is a good tiering strategy when it is acceptable, when there is nothing at stake. On Showdown, it is acceptable, because the metagame doesn't get rocked by new features every 2 months. There is also no time component or ressource component on Showdown. In PokeMMO, asking people to wait and see has dire consequences. Asking players to invest themselves in a shitty meta is unacceptable on PokeMMO, but it would not be a big issue on Showdown imo.

So, 9 likes on your post  back on page 14 and now we're in a "dire situation"? Nah gb, don't be so dramatic. The goal of tiering is to avoid bans whenever possible, but to do so when absolutely necessary. Snorlax using Body Slam and paralyzing 30% of the time, Snorlax having to use bizarre movesets to protect itself, and players not adjusting their playstyles to protect themselves from RNG isn't the best argument, but again, this debate is OUT OF MY HANDS. The decision is up to you and the tier council, who are trying to find time to sit down and talk about this. Debating endlessly on this thread is pointless. You have to convince your TC partners, not me or the community at this point. 

 

And random fact, I polled LYLE yesterday and received the following results from our more active members: 1 agrees with a Snorlax ban, 8 do not. It might be irrelevant, but I felt it would be good for me to understand where my team sits on the issue. 

[gbwead]

@DoubleJ

The point of this thread is to discuss Snorlax. If you find this debate pointless, you don't have to take a part in it; no one is forcing you to as far as I know.

 

If after going through the 18 pages of this thread you still convince yourself that the current OU tier is "popular", this truly saddens me, just like watching a blind man crossing the street when the green light is still on. I am serious here; popularity is not going to be a valid argument to keep or ban Snorlax because no one can claim and no one can verify whether or not the current OU meta is "popular". 

 

1 hour ago, DoubleJ said:

Snorlax using Body Slam and paralyzing 30% of the time

Well, if there is no viable way to prevent this from happening and if it is child's play for Snorlax to come into play, it is a huge problem. Heal Bellers suck in our current meta because Snorlax makes them useless. Forcing people to play Milotic is hardly healthy for the metagame considering how Milotic is only good at sitting pretty and do nothing. 

 

1 hour ago, DoubleJ said:

Snorlax having to use bizarre movesets to protect itself

Protect itself? Is this a joke? Snorlax doesn't need any protecting since its very presence is enough to give an unforgiving advantage to whoever uses it. You lose momentum scouting lax, you risk getting paralysed as you scout and we all know at this point how detrimental a paralysis can be. Forcing people to use a pivot + 1/2 moveset counters just to deal with lax is also not healthy for the OU metagame.

 

1 hour ago, DoubleJ said:

and players not adjusting their playstyles to protect themselves from RNG isn't the best argument

Please not this again. "Snorlax is not broken, it just you guys that suck". This argument is straight up pitiful given the number of quality players that have said how cancerous Snorlax is. However, when people start proposing Destiny Bond Houndoom and Lum Berry Rhydon as viable ways to adjust one's playstyle to Snorlax, it becomes quite clear who is deluded and who is not.

[DoubleJ]

4 minutes ago, gbwead said:

@DoubleJ

The point of this thread is to discuss Snorlax. If you find this debate pointless, you don't have to take a part in it; no one is forcing you to as far as I know.

 

If after going through the 18 pages of this thread you still convince yourself that the current OU tier is "popular", this truly saddens me, just like watching a blind man crossing the street when the green light is still on. I am serious here; popularity is not going to be a valid argument to keep or ban Snorlax because no one can claim and no one can verify whether or not the current OU meta is "popular". 

Never once had I said "popularity" is what is gong to keep Snorlax from getting banned. It was merely a remark on the fact that there are a number of players who enjoy this meta as it is and that the players represented here are a very small subset. 

 

4 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Well, if there is no viable way to prevent this from happening and if it is child's play for Snorlax to come into play, it is a huge problem. Heal Bellers suck in our current meta because Snorlax makes them useless. Forcing people to play Milotic is hardly healthy for the metagame considering how Milotic is only good at sitting pretty and do nothing. 

252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 70-84 (29.5 - 35.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 30-36 (14.1 - 16.9%) -- possible 6HKO

 

 

How does Snorlax make Heal Bell users useless? They are still quite able of doing their job very well. With STAB Surf, Vaporeon is even able to double as a counter to most Metagross, Flygon, Charizard, and Arcanine. 

 

4 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Protect itself? Is this a joke? Snorlax doesn't need any protecting since its very presence is enough to give an unforgiving advantage to whoever uses it. You lose momentum scouting lax, you risk getting paralysed as you scout and we all know at this point how detrimental a paralysis can be. Forcing people to use a pivot + 1/2 moveset counters just to deal with lax is also not healthy for the OU metagame.

You lose momentum scouting any pokemon throughout a match, Snorlax just happens to be able to para your switch in 30% of the time. We can't play safely 100% of the time. 

 

4 minutes ago, gbwead said:

 

Please not this again. "Snorlax is not broken, it just you guys that suck". This argument is straight up pitiful given the number of quality players that have said how cancerous Snorlax is. However, when people start proposing Destiny Bond Houndoom and Lum Berry Rhydon as viable ways to adjust one's playstyle to Snorlax, it becomes quite clear who is deluded and who is not.

Never said that, I said the way we play is in need of change. Similarly to the Scald meta in later generations, it might be time we starting thinking about bulky, hard hitting wallbreakers paired with a cleric. 

 

 

You're taking my words far out of context and starting to get fairly emotional in your dialogue. While I enjoy a good debate, I don't appreciate players who get so riled up they start making arrogant analogies. As you said, no one is forcing me to stay here so with that I'm out. Good luck with your decision. 

[Thunderprime]

1 hour ago, DoubleJ said:

Never once had I said "popularity" is what is gong to keep Snorlax from getting banned. It was merely a remark on the fact that there are a number of players who enjoy this meta as it is and that the players represented here are a very small subset. 

 

252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 70-84 (29.5 - 35.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 30-36 (14.1 - 16.9%) -- possible 6HKO

 

 

How does Snorlax make Heal Bell users useless? They are still quite able of doing their job very well. With STAB Surf, Vaporeon is even able to double as a counter to most Metagross, Flygon, Charizard, and Arcanine. 

 

You lose momentum scouting any pokemon throughout a match, Snorlax just happens to be able to para your switch in 30% of the time. We can't play safely 100% of the time. 

 

Never said that, I said the way we play is in need of change. Similarly to the Scald meta in later generations, it might be time we starting thinking about bulky, hard hitting wallbreakers paired with a cleric. 

 

 

You're taking my words far out of context and starting to get fairly emotional in your dialogue. While I enjoy a good debate, I don't appreciate players who get so riled up they start making arrogant analogies. As you said, no one is forcing me to stay here so with that I'm out. Good luck with your decision. 

I tryied using vaporeon as main cleric and it a great pokemon idk why it is not used much. But snorlax laugh when it sees vaporeon either start to curse or like it happened to me spam body slam and hax to death. Vaporeon without the bonus defense like milotic or haze is no good vs snorlax. I know its possible to wish/heal bell and switch but still vaps get often paralised just before switching and next time it comes in play get rekt by gyarados flygon snorlax whatever many pokes it is suppose to wall

Edited September 20, 2016 by Thunderprime

[SweeTforU]

today I got para'd by body slam and I think we should ban this thing already

[Spaintakula]

18 minutes ago, Thunderprime said:

I tryied using vaporeon as main cleric and it a great pokemon idk why it is not used much. But snorlax laugh when it sees vaporeon either start to curse or like it happened to me spam body slam and hax to death. Vaporeon without the bonus defense like milotic or haze is no good vs snorlax. I know its possible to wish/heal bell and switch but still vaps get often paralised just before switching and next time it comes in play get rekt by gyarados flygon snorlax whatever many pokes it is suppose to wall

fun fact, vap can phase

E: acid armor go

Edited September 20, 2016 by Spaintakula

[gbwead]

1 minute ago, Spaintakula said:

fun fact, vap can phase

 

and Misdreavus can Heal Bell. I'll let you guess what they both have in common.

[Thunderprime]

7 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

fun fact, vap can phase

E: acid armor go

Ok lol so you both at +6 then what? 24 chances to lose by a crit

[Spaintakula]

1 minute ago, Thunderprime said:

Ok lol so you both at +6 then what? 24 chances to lose by a crit

Uhm, no, you're not both at +6. You're at + something, and he's phazed out, roar/etc

[DarylDixon]

32 minutes ago, SweeTforU said:

today I got para'd by body slam and I think we should ban this thing already

2 body + parahaxx and crits what else?

[pachima]

For the guys, who want to keep snorlax Ou, please move down every uber to OU, if they complain, I will be here to tell them exactly what they are saying now,.

[Spaintakula]

5 minutes ago, pachima said:

For the guys, who want to keep snorlax Ou, please move down every uber to OU, if they complain, I will be here to tell them exactly what they are saying now,.

You're assuming people who don't want to see snorlax think like you and believe snorlax is ubers material. I'm not denying your claim or whatever you believe in that makes you think it should be banned, I just believe in mine more, and you decide to disregard anything that goes against yours. Why in hell would you make an asinine comment like that?

[pachima]

4 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

You're assuming people who don't want to see snorlax think like you and believe snorlax is ubers material. I'm not denying your claim or whatever you believe in that makes you think it should be banned, I just believe in mine more, and you decide to disregard anything that goes against yours. Why in hell would you make an asinine comment like that?

Why? Because in 18 pages of discussion, ppl here are walking in circles with his comments. This becoming useless as hell. Literally everything that should be said had already be said, yet, none of the two parts want to understand the position of the other. Just make a damn decision, and let me play 6 snorlax lures, not even mad.

[Laz]

How about nerfing body slam's paralyze odd and keeping it into the tier to keep the balance, 30% is really a high rate. Otherwise I really think it should be moved up very soon because it fucks up counters and spurs uncompetitiveness, a whole match can be decided by a single para from snorlax, because this thing has everything to sweep: huge HP, threatening attack and huge bulk.

I suggest lowering the 30% rate to like 10% or 15%.

[gbwead]

Just now, Lazaro23 said:

How about nerfing body slam's paralyze odd and keeping it into the tier to keep the balance, 30% is really a high rate. Otherwise I really think it should be moved up very soon because it fucks up counters and spurs uncompetitiveness, a whole match can be decided by a single para from snorlax, because this thing has everything to sweep: huge HP, threatening attack and huge bulk.

I suggest lowering the 30% rate to like 10% or 15%.

This would be great, but it won't happen because this would alter the game. In Pokemon games, Body Slam has been designed with a 30% rate. If we are starting to mess with the way the move was designed, we would slowly but surely no longer be playing pokemon :/

[pachima]

15 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

You're assuming people who don't want to see snorlax think like you and believe snorlax is ubers material. I'm not denying your claim or whatever you believe in that makes you think it should be banned, I just believe in mine more, and you decide to disregard anything that goes against yours. Why in hell would you make an asinine comment like that?

Also uber material and highly unealthy to OU are quite distinct things. I´m not saying snorlax itself is ubers material, its just the way OU is atm, cant handle him like it should. Period, if thats banable or not, its a whole different story, and again, we will repeat the same neverending cycle of arguments. This is mine, Over, do whatever you think its the best considering this.

[RysPicz]

12 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

You're assuming people who don't want to see snorlax think like you and believe snorlax is ubers material. I'm not denying your claim or whatever you believe in that makes you think it should be banned, I just believe in mine more, and you decide to disregard anything that goes against yours. Why in hell would you make an asinine comment like that?

Spaint do you even play this game? Have you logged in to see the replays GB, Nik and Jim posted? Have you seen how fucking difficult to deal with Snorlax is and how incredibly problematic it is? You're defending a broken poke in a broken meta, Snorlax does not make the tier any more healthy and it does not have any positive impact on teambuilding either but I don't feel like repeating myself about how it restricts teambuilding and how the usage stats prove it (the post is somewhere @ beggining of the thread). I actually completly loved how the biggest defender of Snorlax doublej said that "snorlax restricts pokes like growth venusaur, growth jolteon, SD ursaring, CM Espeon and maaaaaaaaaaaaaany more from being viable in the tier as an argument to keep it in tier. One poke blocks a huge variety of offense, varying from physical to special, making the metagame stall, because you got only few viable answers for Snorlax and even if you got them, you are not safe because like I already said, scouting is super easy here and so is bringing a proper Snorlax to counter a proper team. And you fucking have to bring that answer for Snorlax because it's almost everywhere and only hardcore hyper offense players really rarely don't use it (in fact, they run a CB Lax).

I'm speaking out of pure experience which definietly isn't small because I both was using Snorlax and I faced them as well. I know how difficult is it to deal with it, I know how easily it comes on any special attack, I know how it's body slam paralyze very often determines the outcome of the match, I know how easily it can just sack entire party of it's own to set up curse lategame and fuck you over completly.

 

This is not a hero we need, nor a hero we deserve

[Spaintakula]

19 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Spaint do you even play this game? Have you logged in to see the replays GB, Nik and Jim posted? Have you seen how fucking difficult to deal with Snorlax is and how incredibly problematic it is? You're defending a broken poke in a broken meta, Snorlax does not make the tier any more healthy and it does not have any positive impact on teambuilding either but I don't feel like repeating myself about how it restricts teambuilding and how the usage stats prove it (the post is somewhere @ beggining of the thread). I actually completly loved how the biggest defender of Snorlax doublej said that "snorlax restricts pokes like growth venusaur, growth jolteon, SD ursaring, CM Espeon and maaaaaaaaaaaaaany more from being viable in the tier as an argument to keep it in tier. One poke blocks a huge variety of offense, varying from physical to special, making the metagame stall, because you got only few viable answers for Snorlax and even if you got them, you are not safe because like I already said, scouting is super easy here and so is bringing a proper Snorlax to counter a proper team. And you fucking have to bring that answer for Snorlax because it's almost everywhere and only hardcore hyper offense players really rarely don't use it (in fact, they run a CB Lax).

I'm speaking out of pure experience which definietly isn't small because I both was using Snorlax and I faced them as well. I know how difficult is it to deal with it, I know how easily it comes on any special attack, I know how it's body slam paralyze very often determines the outcome of the match, I know how easily it can just sack entire party of it's own to set up curse lategame and fuck you over completly.

 

This is not a hero we need, nor a hero we deserve

Well I haven't joined a tour in months, but I was never a tour guy. Doesn't mean I don't spectate/play. Which I actually do tbh, whenever I have the time, I dip ingame for a few battles, log off, and voila. I do get your claim though, not saying I know more than anyone about this game, but I as much as anyone else have common competitive sense.

[RysPicz]

6 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

Well I haven't joined a tour in months, but I was never a tour guy. Doesn't mean I don't spectate/play. Which I actually do tbh, whenever I have the time, I dip ingame for a few battles, log off, and voila. I do get your claim though, not saying I know more than anyone about this game, but I as much as anyone else have common competitive sense.

I respect your opinion even though it differs from mine, but I really, really have tons of experience with Snorlax and I try to speak from it rather than basing my opinion on dry theory. I really do my best to stay unbiased and I seriously want the metagame itself to benefit from the decision rather than just myself. I've won a huge amount of battles with my own Lax being the decisive factor and I also do not feel like bringing Milotic to every match because it's the safest answer to Snorlax I can think of. I'm restricted by it's presence and this is something I really cannot deal with, this isn't a healthy metagame- at least for me.

[LifeStyle]

It's been made pretty clear by most comments here that Body Slam is the only thing wrong with Snorlax.

Is a Body Slam ban just not possible or what? If not, then just ban Snorlax, pretty simple.