[OU Discussion] Snorlax [Test banned]

[LifeStyle]

Pretty much most I've seen from OU lately is lax spamming body slams and milos switching in fishing for that para

Lax is cancer so people counter it with cancer/gimmicks , subswag jolt, blockperish lapras, speedytrapinch, etc

It's a thin line between creativity and idek what to name this current meta

Edited September 19, 2016 by LifeStyle

[OrangeManiac]

23 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Imo, considering Snorlax leaves little to no place for creativity, the meta can only get worse by becoming stale and utterly booring where skills no longer determine who is the winner of a duel. Once again, I am refering to the fact that unhealthiness is directly related to centralisation in the case of Snorlax and I am also refering to the fact that players will eventually lose interest in playing competitively in PokeMMO since there is nothing competitive about our current meta. 

The players who complain about Snorlax are mostly experienced players. Experienced players hate when they lose despite playing better than their opponent. If you think of that last statement, it's quite honestly the opposite. Imagine if you had to as a new player play against the top tier players with 6000 less playing hours and trying to succeed against them. To me THAT is what would scare people off from this game when we have no divisions of level in this game. In addition, did you think about 'competitiveness' in your first 1000 hours? I sure as hell didn't.

 

This may be a bit off topic whether lax is banworthy but saying Lax will get people off from this game doesn't make the slightest sense. It makes already people who have won it all have more unlucky bumps for their next trophy. Is it fair? Maybe, maybe not.

 

Edited September 19, 2016 by OrangeManiac

[gbwead]

2 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

The players who complain about Snorlax are mostly experienced players. Experienced players hate when they lose despite playing better than their opponent. If you think of that last statement, it's quite honestly the opposite. Imagine if you had to as a new player play against the top tier players with 6000 less playing hours and trying to succeed against them. To me THAT is what would scare people off from this game when we have no divisions of level in this game. In addition, did you think about 'competitiveness' in your first 1000 hours? I sure as hell didn't.

 

This may be a bit off topic whether laxnis banworthy but saying Lax will get people off from this game doesn't make the slightest sense. It makes already people who have won it all have more unlucky bumps for their next trophy. Is it fair? Maybe, maybe not.

That is not what I exactly said. I said people would stop playing the game competitively, not the game as a whole. People that have less than 1000 hours rarely care about competitiveness indeed.

[BlackJovi]

This is just a neverending circle of whining, when lax gets banned (if) people gonna start whining about how stally the meta is with chansey in it, when people realize chanseys get trapped by trapinch everytime, they're gonna whine about trapinch, people gonna start running shed hull chansey, people will whine about shed hull.. etc

[OrangeManiac]

Just now, gbwead said:

That is not what I exactly said. I said people would stop playing the game competitively, not the game as a whole. People that have less than 1000 hours rarely care about competitiveness indeed.

A player who plays their first match of matchmaking is playing the game 'competitively', at least to according to my definition of the word but this is getting to discussion of word meanings and therefoe off topic.

[gbwead]

2 minutes ago, BlackJovi said:

This is just a neverending circle of whining, when lax gets banned (if) people gonna start whining about how stally the meta is with chansey in it, when people realize chanseys get trapped by trapinch everytime, they're gonna whine about trapinch, people gonna start running shed hull chansey, people will whine about shed hull.. etc

Let's just ban Chansey too and call it a day ^^

 

Edit:

1 minute ago, OrangeManiac said:

A player who plays their first match of matchmaking is playing the game 'competitively', at least to according to my definition of the word but this is getting to discussion of word meanings and therefoe off topic.

If the experienced players stop playing competitively and if the amateurs - aspiring to become experienced players - never actually get to become experienced out of boredom, having a discussion like we are having right now would be impossible since there would be no one to discuss with. 

Edited September 19, 2016 by gbwead

[RysPicz]

1 minute ago, gbwead said:

Let's just ban Chansey too and call it a day ^^

Let's ban Skarmory too, it's OP

[DarylDixon]

8 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Let's just ban Chansey too and call it a day ^^

that's my wish.

[LifeStyle]

Just now, DarylDixon said:

that's my wish.

And Focus Punch Breloom amirite

[Thunderprime]

47 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

I'm not against a stale chansey meta, I'll adapt anyway. You all wont, and in 2-3 months time, if lax is banned, another discussion will come about chansey's unhealthiness to the metagame, and you'll start doing the same circle that's been going for a while now, hoping for a better metagame, while knowing deep in your mind you're never gonna get it, so it's something to do until X things come to the game. What we can do is just adapt to one metagame and work with it, and not constantly switch back and forth. But hey, it's pokemmo, things always go like that, so you all have to adapt to that too.

Plz chansey is cancer but cureable unlike snorlax. I say we ban snorlax and all adapt to the new meta.

Chansey also already had its discussion and they decided not to ban it when it was stronger than now so why would it get discussed then.

[pachima]

What about a complex ban on leftovers in snorlax?

Leftovers is what makes it able to switch multiple times on special sweepers to exert pressure on enemy´ team.

Also, without leftovers, laxes would mostly get given choice band. With choice band, walling it is much skillwise, while the player using snorlax cant just use bslam to force para, and will have most of the time, to predict some switches with any non-standard move (That yes, needs some skill)

Also, with banded, a pursuit locked lax cant beat defensive starmie.

Just one of my thoughts.

[Thunderprime]

I d rather wear shell bell than an unneeded choice band

Edited September 19, 2016 by Thunderprime

[Xatu]

4 hours ago, Tyrone said:

I would like to see some replays from Official Tournament games in which Snorlax is clearly shown to be unhealthy for the game.

Please write the name of the Tournament, round # and the two competing players.

 

Using this, the Tier Council can review those cases and analyze if / how Snorlax has been the problematic factor.

 

 

My personal stance on Snorlax is that a ban would likely have a negative impact on the metagame, recreating the stale "Chansey-metagame" where the obvious replacement for Snorlax on most teams will be Chansey, and the safest switchin for Chansey is yet another Chansey. This leads to unnecessarily long and boring matches for both spectators and players.

Many skilled players will argue that "Chansey is more exploitable than Snorlax, so it isn't as big of a problem" which holds truth, but another truth is that not every competitive player is as skilled as the players arguing this and will not see the exploits a Chansey offers. (Or the main counter of Chansey has fainted in the duel before Chansey did and the only way to now beat it is to pp-stall)

 

It also needs to be stated that one of the issues with Snorlax (Body Slam paralysis) come due to the fact that there's an increase dislike among the competitive playerbase for RNG, as seen in the OU Discussion Request thread, Confusion thread, Suggestion for haxless tournament and arguments for complex ban on Body Slam Snorlax.

 

When looking at the situation from a helicopter point of view, as Tier Council leader I must look at the whole metagame picture and not just the Official Tournament semis and finals. Each normal / ranked matchmaking game is affected by the change made. The OU Tier has never been as popular as it currently is, which is obvious by the sheer amount of usage statistics I get to process each month, currently around 250 daily matches being recorded on average!

 

I will not rush the decision on Snorlax due to community pressure, as I believe the effects need to be thoroughly discussed and precautions of a potential test ban have to be agreed upon. As I've said before, the Tier Council meeting about Snorlax will take place this month and hopefully we can sort it out.

tl; dr ban chansey and snorlax problem solved.

[gbwead]

12 minutes ago, pachima said:

What about a complex ban on leftovers in snorlax?

Leftovers is what makes it able to switch multiple times on special sweepers to exert pressure on enemy´ team.

Also, without leftovers, laxes would mostly get given choice band. With choice band, walling it is much skillwise, while the player using snorlax cant just use bslam to force para, and will have most of the time, to predict some switches with any non-standard move (That yes, needs some skill)

Also, with banded, a pursuit locked lax cant beat defensive starmie.

Just one of my thoughts.

Knock Off > Complex Ban

Leftovers can help any pokemon. The fact that leftovers helps a broken pokemon right now doesn't mean that leftovers itself is broken on Snorlax. 

[RysPicz]

I miss the tier where you had to use a choiceband or pretend you do, that would be the bane of snorlax

[Hotarubi]

1 hour ago, OrangeManiac said:

Just please stop with these loaded questions. Acting like you can see only one counter-argument against Lax ban isn't only absurd but incredibly arrogant.

But thats the truth.

Im only interested in fairness and competitive health for Ou tier.

It's true that the pokemon is overpowered for OU .

The best counter being Tyranitar , Gengar, and metagross triangle which walls it off entirely.

The fact is it's up to par with the other Uber pokemon which Is why I persist in saying let it return uber.

I see no other reason to leave it in Ou tier rather than to add more RNG and avoid a chansey meta.

An offensive spdef wall like snorlax with a damaging stab move that causes 51% paralysis in a few spams seems incredibly unhealthy.

Doesn't milotic with recover and haze vs snorlax with curse body slam rest and return seem like a huge stall fest as the last pokemon out of 6 on each side?

Isn't the current health of competitive OU what this discussion is about?

The fact stands that snorlax poses a huge threat on multiple levels and its best counters are uber.

Something must be done about this.

 

[pachima]

Bring Snorlax UU please.

[Tackle]

is machamp and hariyama is not enough to stop lax?

 

or people just dont want to use those?

 

[xilias]

27 minutes ago, Tackle said:

is machamp and hariyama is not enough to stop lax?

 

or people just dont want to use those?

 

Both aren't very resistant to stab body slams,both are crippled by paralysis and both can only switch on it twice before dying

[codylramey]

I felt a lot more freedom when building a team back in chansey meta than i did right b4 i left. The biggest problem was gyaradose which isnt that big of a problem.

 

Side note: I use to deal with chansey with trick, is that not an effective way of dealing with lax?

[RysPicz]

12 minutes ago, codylramey said:

I felt a lot more freedom when building a team back in chansey meta than i did right b4 i left. The biggest problem was gyaradose which isnt that big of a problem.

 

Side note: I use to deal with chansey with trick, is that not an effective way of dealing with lax?

You shall not escape from paraslam

[Tackle]

15 hours ago, xilias said:

Both aren't very resistant to stab body slams,both are crippled by paralysis and both can only switch on it twice before dying

how about making them def trained to sustain some bd slams?

they got Guts ability right? is getting paralysis makes them more strong?

 

[xilias]

Just now, Tackle said:

how about making them def trained to sustain some bd slams?

they got Guts ability right? is getting paralysis makes them more strong?

 

well you can do that,obviously you'll just force them to switch out ,and they'll just comeback later to spam body slam,and since both hariyama and machamp lack recovery moves this won't work for the whole duel but it can still work.But the problem is that when some pokemon forces players to run gimmick  pokémons/sets to counter them,then they're unhealthy,I mean each and every uber can get get countered by some pokemon in the tier,but they're unhealthy because it's forcing you to play that single pokemon and that's bad for the meta.

[Spaintakula]

13 minutes ago, xilias said:

well you can do that,obviously you'll just force them to switch out ,and they'll just comeback later to spam body slam,and since both hariyama and machamp lack recovery moves this won't work for the whole duel but it can still work.But the problem is that when some pokemon forces players to run gimmick  pokémons/sets to counter them,then they're unhealthy,I mean each and every uber can get get countered by some pokemon in the tier,but they're unhealthy because it's forcing you to play that single pokemon and that's bad for the meta.

Rest talk hari/champ, what else you need. no para, free guts, free recovery

[DoomedRaven]

1 hour ago, Tackle said:

is machamp and hariyama is not enough to stop lax?

 

or people just dont want to use those?

 

Hariyama is just a filler in OU (he is actually BL) because he is too strong in UU (never seen one so I doubt it). He is practically useless with only HP bulk as his defenses are non-existant and his speed is a joke. You could use one to block some Rock Slides or to counter Houndoom, who is also rarely seen in OU, so there is no point of running a Hariyama just for the sake of killing a Snorlax who would OBVIOUSLY switch out when he sees the Hari.

 

Machamp is another piece of poop and suffers from the safe problems as Hariyama, but he is less bulky. It's kind of those Pokemon whose job can be better handled by others (say Swift'd Medicham). They are not bad, they are just terrible in this centralized meta.

Edited September 19, 2016 by DoomedRaven