[OU Discussion] Snorlax [Test banned]

[Tyrone]

Spoiler

 

snorlax o snorlax

how we love you

how we hate you

snorlax o snorlax

your presence condems you

your bulk betrays you

snorlax o snorlax

cursed to rest forevermore

banished once more

 

I made a poem just cause idk. felt creative starting this sucker off ~Artemiseta

 

 

 

Snorlax - here we go again. This monster has been one of the most loved, and hated, pokemon in Pokemmo history. In this thread we will determine its fate once more by looking at its health in the OU tier.

 

Without a doubt Snorlax is one of the most fearsome in the OU tier at the moment. It is fully capable of being a special tank, or just an offensive behemoth. It's important to note this is not the same Snorlax that was banned to Ubers in the past. The fixed Trick mechanic and the implementation of new items have helped special attackers to deal with Snorlax. For instance, Magneton Choice Spec can usually 3HKO Snorlax with Thunderbolt which is pretty good considering Snorlax relies on Rest to heal up. Starmie Choice Spec can also severely cripple a Snorlax if it uses Trick at the right time. Snorlax is more vulnerable on the special side than he used to be and it maybe possible to exploit this weakness with a well rounded offensive team that keeps the pressure on. The introduction of choice band and choice specs have also done a lot to limit the role that Snorlax plays in the current meta. He no longer is able to sponge special attack after special attack with as much ease as before or without some investment.

 

However, Laxs are now running new sets to deal with some common answers, namely Skarmory and Rhydon. Snorlax's large movepool, its favorable typing, its useful abilities as well as its high and very well distributed base stats makes this pokemon incredibly unpredictable. He can now run fire blast or surf or substitute and focus punch to wear down his common switch ins. That's not all - lax can curse up, take heavy hits, deal severe damage thanks to its good coverage, suprise an opponent with a special move, whirlwind, pursuit and hax the opponent with Body Slam para. This pokemon is so versatile that it is capable of eliminating all its potential counters and punishes whoever underestimates it.

 

As mentioned there are still some pokemon that have good match ups against Snorlax. Rhydon is pretty decent if Snorlax doesn't have Surf/Earthquake and doesn't get any Body Slam para. Dusclops is pretty good as well, even though Crunch CB hurts a lot and Snorlax outspeeds Dusclops. Skarmory can phase out Lax and gain momentum by placing spikes, but could regret staying against a potential Fire Blast. Metagross Psych Up can be quite useful against a Curselax, but para can really cripple it and Fireblast/Earthquake hurts a lot.

 

Over the course of time there has been one key factor that Snorlax can abuse, Body Slam. This frightens even the most sure switch in, Rhydon. The paralysis is something that Snorlax can use like no other pokemon in the game. Paralysis renders lax's biggest flaw - it's low speed - a complete non-factor. The parahax has become more of an issue lately and has caused the OU tier to shift to have multiple ways to force Snorlax out and to try not to let him into play in general. However, it is important to note that Snorlax makes body slam so strong, not the other way around - you don't see other pokemon abusing this move to the extent snorlax does, so let's keep our discussion focused on the pokemon in question.

 

Even though Snorlax is not as bulky as Chansey, doesn't have an advantageous typing like Venusaur against certain special attackers, can't bring as much support as Umbreon or doesn't have access to an instant recovery move like other special walls, Snorlax outclasses all other special walls. The fact that Snorlax hard counters other special walls and that Snorlax doesn't really have any true hard counters makes this pokemon too good not to be used. Snorlax's usage shows how popular it is in the current meta, sitting atop the usage chart, and it is followed b one of the safest switch ins that there is in Skarmory. With a ll this in mind the tier council would like your help in determining the fate of Snorlax once more. Is it having an unhealthy affect on our meta? Is it too good not to use?

 

Took a lot form GB here from old thread so TYVM. added information into it. tried not to repeat some things over and over but certain points should be given home like really only 2 switch ins, 3 if Dusclops isn't facing a correctly predicted CB crunch

 

Some Important moves: Body Slam, Return, Double-edge, Fire Punch, Fire Blast, Surf, Earthquake, Focus Punch, Substitute, Rest, Curse, Crunch, Pursuit

The main sets that Snorlax likes to run are:

 

Choice Band:

Body Slam, Crunch, Fire Punch, Pursuit/ Earthquake

 

Leftovers:

Curse, Body Slam, Fire Punch, Rest

Curse, Body Slam, Rest, Sleep Talk

Substitute, Body Slam, Fire blast/ Surf, Focus Punch

 

~Write up thanks to Artemiseta, Gunthug, gbwead and BurntZebra

 

Keep the discussion on topic, irrelevant and no content posts will be removed.

[XPLOZ]

A thread about lax, finallyyyyyy. 

 

I have seen the OU metagame changing and I feel like Snorlax makes it less enjoyable/competitive. What I noticed is that more than half of OU battles are nowadays decided by Snorlax Bodyslam's paralysis. Heal bellers aren't that viable in this meta. Lax puts too much pressure on them. You got Chansey which is forced to run twave (because of Lax immunity) and which is a bait to those Rhydons around (used to counter Lax lol). You got Vap, but a vap support without wish is kinda bad, so you have only 1 spot left for an offensive move (bait + doesn't counter gyara...). You got Jolt support which is too frail with Lax everywhere and finally you got Umbreon... 

Players who use Lax don't give a shit about normal resistances, they spam Body slam because they know that a paralysis can highly cripple a Metagross, a Rhydon or anything else. Of course they fear a bit Dusclops, but you know, it's just a Dusclops, this thing with its limited movepool doesn't put much pressure, unlike Gengar, which is banned. 

 

On the other hand, Lax comes on the field less easily than before, because of the new item : Choice Spec. It takes some good damage and can be Tricked, which makes the Curse set totally useless. I think that Curselax isn't the huge threat it was before, and Lax surely shouldn't be banned because of this set only. 

 

Lax remains very versatile with those CB sets (Pursuit is a lot punishing), Mixed set (to counter his "counters", with fireblast, or even surf), Sub sets, and Curse sets. Each of those sets can punish an opponent not well prepared, but none of them is too OP for the current metagame. The only problem I see is Body slam, because it punishes too much our metagame (I mean DPP has Rotom, Gengar, or even Dusknoir, while we only have Dusclops). A lax without body slam would be a lot healthier, in my opinion. 

 

I'd really like to see a complex ban here, because I feel like it's a situation where it is very necessary. We want to make a competitive game, right ? 

 

 

EDIT : I would like to point out that I don't say that body slam is banworthy itself. It is only Lax + bodyslam, because lax can abuse it a lot more than anything else (well Kanga can, but Plume is a very viable heal beller, so paralysis isn't much of an issue. That's why most of Kangas run double edge).

 

Edited August 16, 2016 by XPLOZ
typos

[Gilan]

27 minutes ago, XPLOZ said:

A lax without body slam would be a lot more healthy, in my opinion. 

 

I'd really like to see a complex ban here, because I feel like it's a situation where it is very necessary. We want to make a competitive game, right ? 

 

The move that would replace body slam would be return. 70% of the time body slam is worse than return... People run body slam over return because that 30% chance to paralyze the opponent has such a high payoff, i.e. it opens the door for the 25% chance at time walking the opponent, which is such an incredible tempo swing that it overcomes that 17 difference in move power. Normally paralyze isn't such a big deal, because the user has to waste an entire turn to apply the status (i.e. use thunder wave or glare) which is a huge tempo loss, but it pays off if the opponent para haxes at least once. When the effect as just slapped on to an already fairly powerful move (most of the time snorlax doesn't even need 102 over 85) the move becomes incredible. Now, is the move itself insane? No. But it is incredibly strong and is so complimentary to Snorlax who can afford the 17 difference in move power and even benefits a great deal from a paralyze, ignoring para haxes, that it just might be too strong on that particular pokemon.

 

Therefore, I agree that it would be interesting to see what would happen with a complex ban on body slam.

 

p.s. I just woke up so sorry if I don't make the most sense...

[XPLOZ]

3 minutes ago, Gilan said:

Now, is the move itself insane? No. But it is incredibly strong and is so complimentary to Snorlax who can afford the 17 difference in move power and even benefits a great deal from a paralyze, ignoring para haxes, that it just might be too strong on that particular pokemon.

 

Therefore, I agree that it would be interesting to see what would happen with a complex ban on body slam.

 

Yeah I just edited my post to precise this point, because I was seeing the debate about bodyslam itself coming. Bodyslam isn't banworthy itself, but it's incredible how Lax can abuse it.

[Artemiseta]

3 hours ago, Tyrone said:

 

However, it is important to note that Snorlax makes body slam so strong, not the other way around - you don't see other pokemon abusing this move to the extent snorlax does, so let's keep our discussion focused on the pokemon in question.

 

 

please check that. body slam is important on lax but not on others. same could have been said about the move curse itself way back when. Snolrax was banned and not curse complex banned just in case you forgot

[Gunthug]

8 minutes ago, Artemiseta said:

please check that. body slam is important on lax but not on others. same could have been said about the move curse itself way back when. Snolrax was banned and not curse complex banned just in case you forgot

Well to be fair, there was a short period within our vast history where curse was complex banned. However, senile has stated that they went the complex route because the meta was in such a precarious position that the loss of snorlax would have been devastating for the tier. Keep in mind how different the metagame was back then though (baton pass, no physical special split, etc) and remember just how drastic things have to be to warrant a departure from the standard banning methods 

Edited August 16, 2016 by Gunthug

[XPLOZ]

Well Curselax had been complex banned already in the past.

 

I know that the current TC isn't in favor of any complex ban, but I feel like it would be great in this particular case.

Edited August 16, 2016 by XPLOZ
Ninja'd

[Gunthug]

8 minutes ago, XPLOZ said:

Well Curselax had been complex banned already in the past.

 

I know that the current TC isn't in favor of any complex ban, but I feel like it would be great in this particular case.

Our thoughts on complex bans are simply that they should only be used in very special circumstances where a standard ban would be inadequate to address the problem. If the problem is that Snorlax's body slam is terrorizing the tier, a standard snorlax ban would solve that (assuming the ban criteria was met, of course). 

 

Personally I don't think it's worth considering at this point so early in the discussion. 

[Liberalisme]

Isn't just testbanning an option and then look how the tier is without Snorlax?

[XPLOZ]

3 minutes ago, Liberalisme said:

Isn't just testbanning an option and then look how the tier is without Snorlax?

I think that test bans can't be used everywhere because it makes the metagame unstable (which isn't good for the competitiveness).

It is an option but the discussion has to determine that it is needed in this case.

[fredrichnietze]

here we go again......

so uber support for parahax? just gonna pop up and say this is ridiculous but it gave me a good laugh, especially the poem.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Thunder_Wave_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Stun_Spore_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Body_Slam_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Bounce_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Dragon_Breath_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Glare_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Thunder_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Thunder_Punch_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Thunderbolt_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Tri_Attack_(move)

all these moves have a 10-100% chance to para, but lax is somehow different? it somehow can paralyze better then anything else? 

 

anyways, not uber support for paralyzing pokes.

 

now is it uber offensive or defensive? no it's just annoying. those special sets turn 1-2 of laxes counters into checks, but they have a trade off. 4 moves and that means less coverage or no curse.

 

lax is annoying. lax has always been annoying. lax will always be annoying. bliss too. annoying=/=ban worthy.

even thou technically wobbu isnt uber with ghost/switch item but it's so annoying no one wants to argue for it so i guess im a hypocrite but w/e

[Spaintakula]

1 hour ago, fredrichnietze said:

here we go again......

so uber support for parahax? just gonna pop up and say this is ridiculous but it gave me a good laugh, especially the poem.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Thunder_Wave_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Stun_Spore_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Body_Slam_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Bounce_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Dragon_Breath_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Glare_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Thunder_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Thunder_Punch_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Thunderbolt_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Tri_Attack_(move)

all these moves have a 10-100% chance to para, but lax is somehow different? it somehow can paralyze better then anything else? 

 

anyways, not uber support for paralyzing pokes.

 

now is it uber offensive or defensive? no it's just annoying. those special sets turn 1-2 of laxes counters into checks, but they have a trade off. 4 moves and that means less coverage or no curse.

 

lax is annoying. lax has always been annoying. lax will always be annoying. bliss too. annoying=/=ban worthy.

 

 

Most of those moves are either status, or moves that usually come as coverage, and one/two pokes who can use it as stab. Thing is, snorlax can afford itself to throw a few body slams each switch in/out, while others struggle more to do so.

[XPLOZ]

2 hours ago, fredrichnietze said:

here we go again......

so uber support for parahax? just gonna pop up and say this is ridiculous but it gave me a good laugh, especially the poem.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Thunder_Wave_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Stun_Spore_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Body_Slam_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Bounce_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Dragon_Breath_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Glare_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Thunder_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Thunder_Punch_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Thunderbolt_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Tri_Attack_(move)

all these moves have a 10-100% chance to para, but lax is somehow different? it somehow can paralyze better then anything else? 

 

 

 

Paralysis itself isn't part of the discussion. And it shouldn't, because it isn't cancerous like it is in 4th gen for example.

Can snorlax paralyze better than anything else ? Yes, and this is the point. Snorlax has plenty of safe switches-in and abuses of his stab bodyslam like no one does. Like I explained, we got only 1 ghost in OU (not even a top tier pokemon) and our heal bellers are all baits to lax. Lax is powerfull, slow, and has got a very good movepool. Thereby it takes a lot advantage of the paras he gets from bodyslam and puts an insane pressure. You just have to watch OU battles to see how players ridiculously spam body slam with their lax (and it works !!!). They generally win a ton of momentum with a single paralysis.

Lax without body slam would really be a different pokemon. Right now, you have to build a team where lax has as few switches as possible, because repetitive bodyslam spam punishes too much. I wouldn't mind bringing something like Jolt support if lax didn't have bodyslam. It would be a bait, but at least you can wish your team without beeing crippled by dumb paras, and win yourself momentum over lax.

Edited August 16, 2016 by XPLOZ
typo

[Laz]

< Lax banned
< Lax unbanned

< Lax banned 
< Lax unbanned

I only see 2 scenarios happening, lax getting banned, or lax getting complexly banned ( ban curse ) 
At least with no curse, lax is just a regular slow wall with a large move pool, and it can still be very useful ( whirlwind, sub fp, sub toxic, special, belly drum, CB etc )
Banning lax will just make trappers more viable as chansey will be the only legit sp.def wall, ( trapinch diglet haunter lapras misdreavus can do the job )
Banning body slam will not fix the curse lax set as it doesn't need a para to sweep.
Feel free to disagree

Edited August 16, 2016 by Lazaro23
mistyping

[xilias]

17 minutes ago, Lazaro23 said:

Banning body slam will not fix the curse lax set as it doesn't need a para to sweep.

Not true,the parahax gives lax more ease to set,if it can't para then CB rhdydon/hera or even a calm mind bro can switch in and stop it.

[Aerun]

36 minutes ago, Lazaro23 said:

Banning body slam will not fix the curse lax set as it doesn't need a para to sweep.
 

People were actually complaining about how OP a para is and how it could make his user win easier. Also you can't compare body slam with curse since bodyslam will have to para to win easier, so relying on rng, curse will sweep if your opponent doesn't have a phazer or something, so that's all their fault for not bringing one.

My point is that we can't do shit about rng and it's out of our control (there are clerics but like XPLOZ said it's not worth running them because it's not that good) and you can't get swept unlike curse which you only need to bring a phazer for (thinking of haze vapo, haze weezing, roar arcanine, ww skarmory and others..) to not get swept.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Aerun

[XPLOZ]

50 minutes ago, Lazaro23 said:

I only see 2 scenarios happening, lax getting banned, or lax getting complexly banned ( ban curse ) 
At least with no curse, lax is just a regular slow wall with a large move pool, and it can still be very useful ( whirlwind, sub fp, sub toxic, special, belly drum, CB etc )
 

 

Can you explain how curse is the main problem here ? Because I really think it isn't. From what I saw, very few good players are getting swept by curselax in the current metagame.

Saying "at least it will be less good without curse" is exactly the kind of reasoning we should avoid concerning complex bans. If we're going this way, we can just unban all the ubers and complex ban them.

My point is that Lax without bodyslam is kinda healthy for the metagame. I didn't talk much about it yet but you made a valid point saying chansey might be "too easy" to trap. And with the new items, a fast and powerful special sweeper could be savage once chansey is gone. Well a good teambuild with good resistances/immunities or/and a Choice scarfer could deal with it.

 

Also I agree with xilias, the para of bodyslam can help Curselax to set-up. When Metagross or Rhydon come to try to avoid a sweep, a para stops them cold.

 

Edited August 16, 2016 by XPLOZ

[DoubleJ]

Why are the usage statistics removed with each update? It would be nice to visually compare usage between these updates, especially in this case. Snorlax is such an "on the fence" pokemon that we've banned it several times in the past and the only argument for or against it that makes honest sense would be one decided upon by numbers. 

 

If my memory is correct, in previous metas where Snorlax was banned it had 50% or higher usage. It was THE pokemon in the tier. That was before the prevalence of Trick, the presence of Life Orb or Swift Band, or even Metagross. Now we have all of these being used at an incredible rate and Snorlax is seeing only 40% usage. Is it the highest used pokemon right now? Yes, and that's because it is a really, really good pokemon. It can act as a Special Def wall with enough defensive bulk to handle most attacks. It sports an incredible movepool and can even sweep unprepared teams with Curse. 

 

Is this just another case of a diverse pokemon destroying our tier and the player base whining about how "broken" it is, or is Snorlax truly broken? Honestly, we can't label it as an Offensive Uber. It has one sweeper set which is stopped cold by Haze users, phazers, CB fighting types, and Rhydon. Is it a Defensive Uber? Well no, it's been stated above that with the introduction of the Special Choice Band Snorlax just can't hang with powered up special attackers in the grand scheme of the match. So what does that leave us with? Yes you're correct, we need to investigate whether it is healthy for the meta or not (or rather, unhealthy).

 

So does Snorlax have a negative impact on the tier? The only real way to determine that is to look at the numbers. Until then it can only be a subjective argument among players and the tier council. 

[Spaintakula]

1 hour ago, DoubleJ said:

Why are the usage statistics removed with each update? It would be nice to visually compare usage between these updates, especially in this case. Snorlax is such an "on the fence" pokemon that we've banned it several times in the past and the only argument for or against it that makes honest sense would be one decided upon by numbers. 

 

If my memory is correct, in previous metas where Snorlax was banned it had 50% or higher usage. It was THE pokemon in the tier. That was before the prevalence of Trick, the presence of Life Orb or Swift Band, or even Metagross. Now we have all of these being used at an incredible rate and Snorlax is seeing only 40% usage. Is it the highest used pokemon right now? Yes, and that's because it is a really, really good pokemon. It can act as a Special Def wall with enough defensive bulk to handle most attacks. It sports an incredible movepool and can even sweep unprepared teams with Curse. 

 

Is this just another case of a diverse pokemon destroying our tier and the player base whining about how "broken" it is, or is Snorlax truly broken? Honestly, we can't label it as an Offensive Uber. It has one sweeper set which is stopped cold by Haze users, phazers, CB fighting types, and Rhydon. Is it a Defensive Uber? Well no, it's been stated above that with the introduction of the Special Choice Band Snorlax just can't hang with powered up special attackers in the grand scheme of the match. So what does that leave us with? Yes you're correct, we need to investigate whether it is healthy for the meta or not (or rather, unhealthy).

 

So does Snorlax have a negative impact on the tier? The only real way to determine that is to look at the numbers. Until then it can only be a subjective argument among players and the tier council. 

That's the thing with mmo meta, it's not really like anything other so you can easily compare and make a decision. There's lots of variables to be taken as insight, all of which help create the metagame it is/will be. Are we always gonna have an unstable clusterfuck meta where a certain pokemon with diversity or firepower or bulk will be able to take more than half of the tier on it's own? Which brings us back to something that we're always gonna need, gen4+ mons, or legends, both of which aren't anywhere near confirmed nor have a future in the game. rip us

[gbwead]

My thoughts on Snorlax

 

Snorlax doesn’t fit any uber characteristics, but is nevertheless banworthy. Describing as "unhealthy" Snorlax’s impact on the OU metagame is a poor choice of words. Snorlax is far worse and should be considered as uncompetitive.

 

From our tiering etiquette, here is the definition of something "uncompetitive" :

Spoiler

Uncompetitive game aspects (or strategies) are those that take away autonomy (control of the game's events), take it out of the hand's of player's decisions-- and do so to a degree that can be considered uncompetitive.

 

The implementation of new items and trick strategies have somewhat limited the switch in options of Snorlax. However, Snorlax’s bulk allows it to be successfully played as a special wall/tank. Snorlax can generally - or sometimes depending on movesets - switch and put direct pressure on Venusaur, Charizard, Arcanine, Alakazam, Slowbro, Magneton, Cloyster, Chansey, Starmie, Vaporeon, Jolteon, Espeon, Umbreon, Forretress, Porygon2, Ludicolo, Gardevoir and others.

 

Furthermore, it is very well known that Snorlax has no viable counters in OU. Snorlax’s sets have very wide coverage and nothing likes Body Slam beside Dusclops and Milotic. However, these two, as Snorlax’s counters, are quite useless in OU. They both hardly put any pressure on an opponent. They both need Haze to stop Curselax. Dusclops has a hard time against CB Pursuit Heracross. Miltotic will not be able to haze Snorlax effectively if it gets toxic previously during the battle. CB Snorlax also punishes these two pokemons.

 

Basically, players are forced to run seemingly useless pokemons to check lax or accept risking being paralysed. 30% to paralyse an opponent’s pokemon is huge considering how Snorlax makes heal bellers unviable by straight up countering them. Therefore, Body Slam Snorlax does indeed take a lot of autonomy away from players forcing them to leave their fate in RNG gods.

 

Unlike other pokemons with nearly perfect coverage and with the potential to punish all switch ins, Snorlax remains extremely useful even once scouted. Once Charizard’s set is revealed or once Sceptile’s set, it is possible to hard counter these pokemons. However, this is not the case with Snorlax. Rhydon should be a safe switch against a casual curselax, but Rhydon has 30% of getting paralysed on the switch in. The same goes with many counters checks.

 

If Body Slam was complex banned on Snorlax, scouted Snorlaxes could be countered. Bold Ludicolo has the bulk to handle several Snorlax’s sets. However, a paralysed Ludicolo, usually loses against Snorlax. The Leech Seed momentum Ludicolo gets for taking a Body Slam fades as soon as Snorlax switches out. The paralysis remains for the rest of the duel. Arcanine, Slowbro and sometimes even Weezing end up in the same situation than Ludicolo.

 

A Body Slam complex ban on Snorlax would also provide players an offensive way to put pressure on Snorlax. Blaziken, Heracross and Medicham can all threathen Snorlax as soon as they come in play. Unfortunetly, since they can only take 1 hit from a stab Snorlax move, this implies that switching on Snorlax needs to be worth it. If they get paralysed by Body Slam, they die. If an opponent sends one of these threaths in front of Snorlax, he has no control over the outcome.

 

I feel the following quote from the tiering etiquette applies perfectly to this situation:

Spoiler

This is uncompetitive in that the opponent has no control over the [move Body Slam], they are left to do nothing but hope that the luck sways to their favor. This significantly detracts from skill, as there are little to no viable methods of playing around it.

 

Considering Snorlax can come in play more than once giving his bulk, it can usually try to get a paralysis with Body Slam more than once. If a Snorlax does 2 Body Slam in one duel, the odds that there was a paralysis are 51%, which is huge!

 

For these reasons, I support a test Body Slam complex ban on Snorlax ^^

Edited August 17, 2016 by gbwead

[BlackJovi]

No further questions your honor, Lord Gb has spoken 

[LifeStyle]

Agree af with what gbwead just said

[Torinnnnn]

thank fucking god

 

i struggle with the concept of reading

Edited August 17, 2016 by Nobarsmcgee

[RysPicz]

14 hours ago, Tyrone said:

snorlax o snorlax

how we love you

how we hate you

snorlax o snorlax

your presence condems you

your bulk betrays you

snorlax o snorlax

cursed to rest forevermore

banished once more

 

I made a poem just cause idk. felt creative starting this sucker off ~Artemiseta

My.

Fucking.

Sides.

 

@gbwead

I already let you know how I see it through priv message but I guess it won't hurt to share my thoughts with the community.

Return/ Facade/ Double- Edge would then replace Snorlax's main means of firepower. I belive this might be a viable solution you're suggesting and definietly something to consider, because Snorlax will finally have a totally viable counter regardless of it's set.

If it's a curselax, fire punch + stab won't make an effect on Rhydon and it can switch in without fearing the paralyze. It will have to disregard one of the attacks for EQ or idk, Brick Break (?) to hurt the switching-in Rhydon. With Brick Break and STAB, Dusclops is it's perfect counter. I can continue on and on but I bet you get the point ;v)

[BurntZebra]

9 minutes ago, gbwead said:

My thoughts on Snorlax

 

Snorlax doesn’t fit any uber characteristics, but is nevertheless banworthy. Describing as "unhealthy" Snorlax’s impact on the OU metagame is a poor choice of words. Snorlax is far worse and should be considered as uncompetitive.

 

From our tiering etiquette, here is the definition of something "uncompetitive" :

  Reveal hidden contents

Uncompetitive game aspects (or strategies) are those that take away autonomy (control of the game's events), take it out of the hand's of player's decisions-- and do so to a degree that can be considered uncompetitive.

 

The implementation of new items and trick strategies have somewhat limited the switch in options of Snorlax. However, Snorlax’s bulk allows it to be successfully played as a special wall/tank. Snorlax can generally - or sometimes depending on movesets - switch and put direct pressure on Venusaur, Charizard, Arcanine, Alakazam, Slowbro, Magneton, Cloyster, Chansey, Starmie, Vaporeon, Jolteon, Espeon, Umbreon, Forretress, Porygon2, Ludicolo, Gardevoir and others.

 

Furthermore, it is very well known that Snorlax has no viable counters in OU. Snorlax’s sets have very wide coverage and nothing likes Body Slam beside Dusclops and Milotic. However, these two, as Snorlax’s counters, are quite useless in OU. They both hardly put any pressure on an opponent. They both need Haze to stop Curselax. Dusclops has a hard time against CB Pursuit Heracross. Miltotic will not be able to haze Snorlax effectively if it gets toxic previously during the battle. CB Snorlax also punishes these two pokemons.

 

Basically, players are forced to run seemingly useless pokemons to check lax or accept risking being paralysed. 30% to paralyse an opponent’s pokemon is huge considering how Snorlax makes heal bellers unviable by straight up countering them. Therefore, Body Slam Snorlax does indeed take a lot of autonomy away from players forcing them to leave their fate in RNG gods.

 

Unlike other pokemons with nearly perfect coverage and with the potential to punish all switch ins, Snorlax remains extremely useful even once scouted. Once Charizard’s set is revealed or once Sceptile’s set, it is possible to hard counter these pokemons. However, this is not the case with Snorlax. Rhydon should be a safe switch against a casual curselax, but Rhydon has 30% of getting paralysed on the switch in. The same goes with many counters checks.

 

If Body Slam was complex banned on Snorlax, scouted Snorlaxes could be countered. Bold Ludicolo has the bulk to handle several Snorlax’s sets. However, a paralysed Ludicolo, usually loses against Snorlax. The Leech Seed momentum Ludicolo gets for taking a Body Slam fades as soon as Snorlax switches out. The paralysis remains for the rest of the duel. Arcanine, Slowbro and sometimes even Weezing end up in the same situation than Ludicolo.

 

A Body Slam complex ban on Snorlax would also provide players an offensive way to put pressure on Snorlax. Blaziken, Heracross and Medicham can all threathen Snorlax as soon as they come in play. Unfortunetly, since they can only take 1 hit from a stab Snorlax move, this implies that switching on Snorlax needs to be worth it. If they get paralysed by Body Slam, they die. If an opponent sends one of these threaths in front of Snorlax, he has no control over the outcome.

 

I feel the following quote from the tiering etiquette applies perfectly to this situation:

  Reveal hidden contents

This is uncompetitive in that the opponent has no control over the [move Body Slam], they are left to do nothing but hope that the luck sways to their favor. This significantly detracts from skill, as there are little to no viable methods of playing around it.

 

Considering Snorlax can come in play more than once giving his bulk, it can usually try to get a paralysis with Body Slam more than once. If a Snorlax does 2 Body Slam in one duel, the odds that there was a paralysis are 51%, which is huge!

 

For these reasons, I support a test Body Slam complex ban on Snorlax ^^

I disagree with the idea of complex banning body slam. Although it is a potential solution, it sets a horrible precedent for future tiering decisions. I mean let's say we had tyranitar in the OU tier still and it was really centralizing. We could complex ban dragon dance, since once you know tyranitar can't set up, it's a lot easier to handle since it's most likely either going to be band, scarf, or mixed. And if it's either band or scarf, then you can just rely on resists, like skarmory for cb locked crunches and metagross for cb locked rock slides, unlike with the dragon dance set which can freely choose its moves. Or for another example, we could complex ban pursuit on houndoom so it no longer fits the support/unhealthy characteristic in UU. But where would we begin on these complex bans? And where would we stop? How would we know when to stop complex banning everything so everything fits into a tier? Why make an exception for one pokemon when complex banning dragon dance on tyranitar is a (hopefully) laughable suggestion? 

 

Another component of complex banning is whether snorlax makes body slam broken or does body slam make snorlax overcentralizing/unhealthy. Is body slam broken on any other pokemon? I'd say probably not. No one is really complaining about body slam miltank or tauros. It seems that body slam is more problematic due to snorlax's large bulk+great base attack, which allows body slam to 2hko pretty much anything that is offensive. And that is more indicative of snorlax being the actual problem, and not body slam itself.

 

And as Forfiter has pointed out, Snorlax can still have a ton of power with other stab normal moves like return, facade, and double edge. Blaziken is even less likely to be able to come in vs snorlax if it's running return or double edge, as double edge can ohko -def blaziken and return pretty much weakens blaziken to the point that it'll die after one life orb attack.

 

 

I guess my reasoning for not wanting to complex ban body slam boils down to the fact that complex banning something on snorlax doesn't make sense if we don't complex ban every other broken pokemon with a single move that pushes it over the limit. Earthquake or reversal on dugtrio. Sludge bomb on gengar. Dragon claw or dragon dance on dragonite+salamence. Softboiled on blissey (maybe?). And if we're doing a move ban, it should be across the board, not just on one pokemon in one tier.