Tier Reset Announcement and Discussion

[Tyrone]

The Tier Council has decided that after the implementation of following items, that a partial reset of the OverUsed, a full reset of UnderUsed and NeverUsed Tiers would be the best step forward for the PokeMMO Meta game:

 

Special Choice Band
Swift Choice Band
Life Ball
Shed Hull

 

 

 

These mirror the effects of the later generation items (In order of the above): Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Life Orb and Shed Shell.

 

 

The following Pokemon will be moved down from Ubers to the OverUsed tier:
Snorlax
Blissey
Gengar

 

This leaves Ubers with:
Wobbufet
Dragonite
Salamence
Tyranitar
Dugtrio

 

The ban on the move 'Baton Pass' will remain in effect.

 

Wobbufet and Dugtrio are remaining banned due to continuing to have an unhealthy effect on the metagame.

Dragonite, Salamence and Tyranitar will remain banned due having a large offensive presence that exceeds that of OU. (Calcs soon)

Blissey and Snorlax are being moved down to coincide with the new pro-offensive atmosphere the new meta seems to have.

 

The decision to move down Gengar has been tricky, since it benefits a lot from the new items as well.
In the end it was decided that it should undergo testing and will be closely watched.

 

Usage stats will be kept up to date and publically available as well as possible to inform every player of the metagame state.

 

Q: What will happen to the UnderUsed and NeverUsed Tiers?

A: All Tiers are being reset, thus we must collect further usage for these tiers to become effective again.

 

Q: When will we have UnderUsed and NeverUsed Tiers back?

A: We estimate around two months for the UnderUsed Tier and four for the NeverUsed Tier to make a comeback.

 

Any Discussion towards the unbanning of these pokemon, or lack thereof, is allowed in this Thread.

Please make sure your posts are relevant to the Discussion at hand.

[Kizhaz]

I'm curios to the reasoning for not testing Dugtrio and Wobbuffet. From the sounds of it we may as well have not gotten the shed shell. I understand that trapping is still unhealthy to the meta and that it cant be expected to start seeing a bunch of Jolteon running shed shell, but having its presence alone I thought would be enough for a test. Not to mention choice scarf also helps beat Dug and specs/band over wobbu.

 

As for the dragons and ttar, I can understand why they aren't being tested but I feel as though if Gengar is being tested, then these guys should be too. Ttar is a hard counter to Gengar for the most part (bar willo and hp fighting), Dragonite is still a strong option as a banded user and well, mence can do it all (Skarm still counters unless mixed with orb fire blast, and I wouldn't count a shed shell as a bad item for Skarm if magnemence becomes a thing)

 

At the end of the day I'm happy to see something happening so yeah :)

[Robofiend]

12 hours ago, Kizhaz said:

I'm curios to the reasoning for not testing Dugtrio and Wobbuffet. From the sounds of it we may as well have not gotten the shed shell. I understand that trapping is still unhealthy to the meta and that it cant be expected to start seeing a bunch of Jolteon running shed shell, but having its presence alone I thought would be enough for a test. Not to mention choice scarf also helps beat Dug and specs/band over wobbu.

 

As for the dragons and ttar, I can understand why they aren't being tested but I feel as though if Gengar is being tested, then these guys should be too. Ttar is a hard counter to Gengar for the most part (bar willo and hp fighting), Dragonite is still a strong option as a banded user and well, mence can do it all (Skarm still counters unless mixed with orb fire blast, and I wouldn't count a shed shell as a bad item for Skarm if magnemence becomes a thing)

 

At the end of the day I'm happy to see something happening so yeah :)

 

But what would you even run Shed Shell on?

 

Shed shell is a pretty useless item to throw on a wall that isn't named Skarmory - the Dugtrio user just needs to be a little bit more patient. Shed Shell Snorlax is one of those things that makes almost no sense, given its function, since Leftovers are pretty much the key to any useful Lax set (except CB). By comparison, Skarmory is actually a great candidate for Shed Shell because of how important Spikes are to its team (not to mention that Roost gives it better survivability in the later gens). Shed Shell on sweepers is straight up laughable - it's such an obvious waste of potential for pretty much anything that's weak to Dugtrio revenge killing.

 

Shed Shell will also remain fairly useless as long as Trick is around, as Special Walls are the most likely things to get trickSpec'd and rendered irrelevant. 

 

The really cancerous part of Dugtrio wasn't only that it took out special walls, it also threatened or revenged a ton of the game's top sweepers. Heracross, Metagross, Ursaring, and loads of other physical wallbreakers could be finished off by even a non-banded set, letting Dugtrio support defensive teams even better than it can support offensive ones.

 

In short: Shed Shell is pretty irrelevant because it's a subpar choice for an item on pretty much anything you give it to and because it doesn't really stop Dugtrio from performing other duties against the standard meta. 

 

Edited May 1, 2016 by Robofiend
was wrong about single used shell

[Gunthug]

9 minutes ago, Robofiend said:

 

But what would you even run Shed Shell on?

 

Shed shell is a pretty useless item to throw on a wall that isn't named Skarmory - it gets used after its first exposure so the Dugtrio user just needs to be a little bit more patient. Shed Shell Snorlax is one of those things that makes almost no sense, given its function, since Leftovers are pretty much the key to any useful Lax set (except CB). By comparison, Skarmory is actually a great candidate for Shed Shell because of how important Spikes are to its team (not to mention that Roost gives it better survivability in the later gens). Shed Shell on sweepers is straight up laughable - it's such an obvious waste of potential for pretty much anything that's weak to Dugtrio revenge killing.

 

Shed Shell will also remain fairly useless as long as Trick is around, as Special Walls are the most likely things to get trickSpec'd and rendered irrelevant. 

 

The really cancerous part of Dugtrio wasn't only that it took out special walls, it also threatened or revenged a ton of the game's top sweepers. Heracross, Metagross, Ursaring, and loads of other physical wallbreakers could be finished off by even a non-banded set, letting Dugtrio support defensive teams even better than it can support offensive ones.

 

In short: Shed Shell is pretty irrelevant because it's a subpar choice for an item on pretty much anything you give it to and because it doesn't really stop Dugtrio from performing other duties against the standard meta. 

Agree with your assessment of dug, but apparently shed shell is not consumed in use here 

[Senile]

4 minutes ago, Robofiend said:

 

But what would you even run Shed Shell on?

 

Shed shell is a pretty useless item to throw on a wall that isn't named Skarmory - it gets used after its first exposure so the Dugtrio user just needs to be a little bit more patient. Shed Shell Snorlax is one of those things that makes almost no sense, given its function, since Leftovers are pretty much the key to any useful Lax set (except CB). By comparison, Skarmory is actually a great candidate for Shed Shell because of how important Spikes are to its team (not to mention that Roost gives it better survivability in the later gens). Shed Shell on sweepers is straight up laughable - it's such an obvious waste of potential for pretty much anything that's weak to Dugtrio revenge killing.

 

Shed Shell will also remain fairly useless as long as Trick is around, as Special Walls are the most likely things to get trickSpec'd and rendered irrelevant. 

 

The really cancerous part of Dugtrio wasn't only that it took out special walls, it also threatened or revenged a ton of the game's top sweepers. Heracross, Metagross, Ursaring, and loads of other physical wallbreakers could be finished off by even a non-banded set, letting Dugtrio support defensive teams even better than it can support offensive ones.

 

In short: Shed Shell is pretty irrelevant because it's a subpar choice for an item on pretty much anything you give it to and because it doesn't really stop Dugtrio from performing other duties against the standard meta. 

Uh, shed shell doesn't get used on switching out? I'm not sure if you typo'd and meant something else or don't understand how Shed Shell works, but it makes you immune to trapping for the whole match (barring trick like you mentioned, ofc)

 

Thanks to Scarf, Dugtrio can't safely revenge like every weakened pokemon and finish it off; They have to at least scout for an item, so I'd almost say Dugtrio is slightly worse at that as well.

[Robofiend]

Ah my bad there, thought it was similar to Eject Button. I've never used it competitively because it's fairly useless in later gens.

[BurntZebra]

1 hour ago, Senile said:

Uh, shed shell doesn't get used on switching out? I'm not sure if you typo'd and meant something else or don't understand how Shed Shell works, but it makes you immune to trapping for the whole match (barring trick like you mentioned, ofc)

 

Thanks to Scarf, Dugtrio can't safely revenge like every weakened pokemon and finish it off; They have to at least scout for an item, so I'd almost say Dugtrio is slightly worse at that as well.

Dugtrio still takes out the actual offensive threats that threaten defensive teams. A choice band/swords dance heracross is much more threatening to a stall team than a scarf heracross. If dugtrio is run on a stall team and it plays a scarf heracross, it doesn't really matter if dugtrio can't trap it, because heracross can't break through walls very easily. Same situation for metagross. Choice band and life orb sets are scary for a defensive team, but scarf set, not so scary. Ursaring is pretty much exclusively a leftovers or choice band pokemon. Dugtrio can obviously still trap snorlax and non hyper voice/hail blissey. So basically the two supporting things dugtrio was banned for (taking out wallbreakers for defensive teams and taking out special walls for special attack teams), dugtrio can still do perfectly fine. 

 

Sure it might not be able to trap everything below 120 base speed now, but it being able to potentially trap something like starmie wasn't really the reason it was banned in the first place. Scarf will make dugtrio users a bit more cautious, but won't really prevent dugtrio from accomplishing what it's destined to do.  

[XPLOZ]

What I think about the current meta :

 

-Gengar is centralizing because you are almost forced to run Blissey not to get rekd. Also, you often have to change your movesets on some pokemons because the Disable set is very frightening and can eventually destroy your team if you are not well prepared (still quite hard to check if you are prepared). As Gengar has lots of amazing immunities, putting 2 moves to touch Gengar is sometimes quite difficult. Because of this, some movesets are a lot altered and some pokemons aren't viable anymore. The support set of Gengar (Wow PS) is still amazingly reliable. With those immunities, it cripples a lot of physical attackers and it blockspin well (exept on starmie). So Gengar can either be a very good support, either a very good wallbreaker. It's like too good not to use.

 

-Blissey is centralizing too. The special offensive side is just ruined. The only thing that Special attackers can do to Blissey is to trick it. Nobody will run an all-out special attacker because it's stopped cold. Even Gengar is a lot more played with the set I mentionned than with special sweeping sets. Blissey is a lot less breakable than Chansey because it has a very good coverage with those special moves : ice beam, tbolt & flame, and it's also bulkier. A Venu Growth could break easily Chansey Toxik, a Jolt Wish/Growth could break the Twave one, a Haunter with Sub was a very good pokemon to run against Chansey. I didn't even mention physical attackers like Rhydon that could easily setup on Chansey, (and ofc Trapinch...).

 

-Snorlax is alright, because it has some difficulties with Gengar around, but I have the feeling that Curselax can still be cancerous, mainly because people will prefer to run utility special attackers than big special sweepers (that can actually break Snorlax with Choice spec / Life orb). Why ? Because Bliss is around and will stall them to death, so that's pretty useless as I said before. Add to Curselax a Magneton and you have a pro strat, brainless as fuck and deadly (well, the new item helps a bit those Skarms).

 

Conclusion : The meta is at the moment unbalanced imo. I think that testing a meta without Bliss/Gengar could be nice. People will run more all-out special Sweepers and Curselax will have difficulties to setup.

Gengar can't be banned without Bliss, and Bliss can't be banned without Gengar. Indeed, if Bliss gets banned, Gengar would be ridiculously unstoppable. On the other hand, if Gengar gets banned, Bliss would be a free run in every team (Gengar is still able to put Bliss in trouble with Disable, Focus punch...).

[KaynineXL]

13 minutes ago, XPLOZ said:

What I think about the current meta :

 

Conclusion : The meta is at the moment unbalanced imo. I think that testing a meta without Bliss/Gengar could be nice. People will run more all-out special Sweepers and Curselax will have difficulties to setup.

Gengar can't be banned without Bliss, and Bliss can't be banned without Gengar. Indeed, if Bliss gets banned, Gengar would be ridiculously unstoppable. On the other hand, if Gengar gets banned, Bliss would be a free run in every team (Gengar is still able to put Bliss in trouble with Disable, Focus punch...).

I agree Gengar and Bliss either both stay or both go, it would be ridiculous to keep one without the other. That said, things could change in that regard if more ubers were hypothetically brought down such as ttar, and I'm not sure that's out of the question as of yet(not saying I would agree with that either). I think either way, Lax should stay just because with the new bands Snorlax has a harder time as it doesn't have the bulk or recovery of Bliss and it doesn't enjoy too many specs sp atker hits while relying on rest for recovery, not to mention trick could be terrible for a curse lax. The great thing about Snorlax is it can be played in many roles, and even though I think the curse set isn't as great as it once was, it can thrive in other roles which I feel is good for the meta.

 

Only possibly steps I think that could happen after we thoroughly test this meta:

1. Keep OU as it is.

2. Ban Gengar & Bliss

3. Test more ubers in OU

4. Maybe even discuss Baton Pass.

[XPLOZ]

Things might change for Gengar if Ttar was coming back, but we have to be sure that we're not bringing back Ttar just to balance an OP thing. This would be a mistake. If Ttar should be unbanned, it would be because it's not unhealthy anymore for the whole metagame. That being said, I think that I would be against an unban of Ttar. The special offensive side, which already suffers a lot, would have a very hard time with this monster around. His ability to trap with Pursuit + Choice Scarf would be a bit ridiculous.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 2, 2016 by XPLOZ

[R3TR0NIX]

Time to voice out my opinion about Gengar. 

 

Overall, Gengar is a really fast and versatile Pokemon that can be dangerous to a team that isn't able to predict it's moveset. Honestly, if I were to describe Gengar...

 

I would call it the Greninja of PokeMMO.

 

Obviously not as strong as Greninja, and Greninja got banned in Gen 6 because of Protean. What I'm saying is that like Greninja, predicting the wrong moveset will cause you to lose some mons from your team. 

 

While items have made Gengar more easy to handle with, it also benefits Gengar a lot. Honestly, if Gengar remains unbanned basically almost everyone would be forced to run Blissey in order to not get rekt. 

 

 

Dont take my opinion too lightly though since I'm only a newbie who does a lot of battles in ORAS

[DoctorPBC]

Gonna voice my opinion

 

 

I haven't played Blissey since the update so im not going to comment on her, but for the other two

 

Snorlax: Incredibly powerful in the right hands but by and large not out of place in OU, I have used a max spdef careful rest-talk set with a degree of success and it managed to keep most special attackers at bay (only falling to BZs mean look gengar) but that lack of attacking power was noticable. I've also ran an adamant curselax set and it definitely was not all that great, it was constantly put under pressure by powerful special attackers and it didn't really get a whole lot done. Definitely not feeling like its OP at all, just a viable alternative to Chansey if you want more of a attacking presence at the cost of reliable recovery and bulkiness

 

Gengar: Im not going to say its overpowered, because I personally dont think it is. Its pursuit bait for a lot of things and really has a rough time once you have figured out the set. But it does force a ton of unsafe switches trying to figure that out and really has a jack of all trades feel to it. I have ran a choice specs trick set with moderate success, its tricked to plenty of Blisseys but somehow failed to get a whole lot done after that. I have also ran the bulky wow set everyone has been clamoring about and again im not feeling how strong it is. 

 

For now I say we keep Gengar in OU, its not stupidly powerful and its certainly beatable with smart play. I think long-term it truly depends on what Ubers come and go from OU. Tyranitar is a huge issue for Gengars especially with a scarf set, but Dugtrio is perhaps Gengars biggest enabler. All depends on which route the TC goes.

 

I also want to add that specially defensive Muk is viable for dealing with Gengar, Houndoom and specially based Metagross also do very well against it incase people are feeling like there is no plausible way of dealing with it

 

 

 

[DoubleJ]

Since we're all doing an 'assessment of the meta' kind of thing, I'd like to point out my thoughts on the recently released ubers. 

• Snorlax thus far fits in very well since it just doesn't have the staying power in such an offensive meta
• Blissey is pure cancer to any special attacker and fears little since it easily can just swap out of any Pursuit and Protect on CB users (no change)
• Gengar to me is a mixed-bag. Blissey stops it fairly well, but its diversity is incredible and thus you kind of shit yourself every time you see Gengar come in safely. Fortunately, Choice Scarf provides an easier opportunity to revenge kill (or at least chase it away). Think Choice Scarf Houndoom with Pursuit. 

In addition, after reading through the prior comments I am entirely on board with keeping Dugtrio banned. While Choice Scarf limits Dugtrio's effectiveness, it still is unhealthy in that it negates a lot of wallbreakers in the game. There is no sound argument against Wobbu, but fuck it, keep it banned lol. 

 

Tyranitar likely has the hardest time in the tier (of the three offensive ubers) despite being such an offensive juggernaut and I still believe the big three should be tested as well. Dragonite probably had the biggest boost and is even more dangerous  than before. Mence doesn't benefit 'a whole lot', but still does Mence things. Life Orb on the mixed set makes it pretty scary though. 

 

tl;dr Ban Blissey, keep watching Gengar, Snorlax is fine.  

[KaynineXL]

12 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Since we're all doing an 'assessment of the meta' kind of thing, I'd like to point out my thoughts on the recently released ubers. 

• Snorlax thus far fits in very well since it just doesn't have the staying power in such an offensive meta
• Blissey is pure cancer to any special attacker and fears little since it easily can just swap out of any Pursuit and Protect on CB users (no change)
• Gengar to me is a mixed-bag. Blissey stops it fairly well, but its diversity is incredible and thus you kind of shit yourself every time you see Gengar come in safely. Fortunately, Choice Scarf provides an easier opportunity to revenge kill (or at least chase it away). Think Choice Scarf Houndoom with Pursuit. 

In addition, after reading through the prior comments I am entirely on board with keeping Dugtrio banned. While Choice Scarf limits Dugtrio's effectiveness, it still is unhealthy in that it negates a lot of wallbreakers in the game. There is no sound argument against Wobbu, but fuck it, keep it banned lol. 

 

Tyranitar likely has the hardest time in the tier (of the three offensive ubers) despite being such an offensive juggernaut and I still believe the big three should be tested as well. Dragonite probably had the biggest boost and is even more dangerous  than before. Mence doesn't benefit 'a whole lot', but still does Mence things. Life Orb on the mixed set makes it pretty scary though. 

 

tl;dr Ban Blissey, keep watching Gengar, Snorlax is fine.  

I agree with a lot of it but if we banned Blissey and kept Gengar, what could we use to swap in? Chansey could not be used which leaves us with Snorlax which isn't a great switch considering you can come in on fpunches, WoWs and even specs sbombs. Stuff like Gard, Pory etc just don't have the bulk to deal with Gar. If that was to happen, surely Gengar has to go immediately as well.

 

That said, I wonder what it would be like with ttar down, bliss gone. Ttar to control gar a little. I'v not really used ttar so I don't know how strong it really is, but if ttar was able to be controlled I think it could balance the meta.

-With Bliss gone, sp atkers have a much easier time especially since Chansey might not be so viable with Gengar here which leaves people with stuff like Pory and Garde which are breakable with sp atkers.

-Since Bliss is gone, Gengar will run havoc, having ttar down would dampen its offensive sets considerably which would be the most scary if pory/garde went.

 

Again, I don't know how strong ttar actually is so I can't give much opinion on if it would be good to bring down or not.

Edited May 3, 2016 by KaynineXL

[jcsouza]

One thing i need to say: Gengar is back, finaly. Looking forward to seed tyranitar, salamence e dragonite back to OU...

[ziom34304]

My opinion:

1. Ban Blissey, I think Chansey is good enough to stop Gengar, also Blissey is in my opinion better DEF tank than Weezing what's little funny:

+5 252+ Atk Arcanine Flame Wheel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 309-364 (85.3 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

+5 252+ Atk Arcanine Flame Wheel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 112-133 (65.1 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

No huge difference in damage + Softboiled>Pain Split + Blissey's Sp Def makes her pretty ultimate tank which you can kill ONLY with Stab/CB Fight move with no other chances to break unless DBond/PSong. Blissey combined with pkmn like Skarmory,Forretress or Slowbro = Ultimate Defense, now lets 2 teams with this pkmn meet(what probably won't be hard) and we get 1h battle of changing and healing,..

2. Gengar should stay, there's still a lot of pkmn's to stop him.

3. Snorlax is fine too.

4. Unban for testing Ttar,Dnite and Salamence.

[XPLOZ]

23 minutes ago, ziom34304 said:

My opinion:

1. Ban Blissey, I think Chansey is good enough to stop Gengar, also Blissey is in my opinion better DEF tank than Weezing what's little funny:

+5 252+ Atk Arcanine Flame Wheel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 309-364 (85.3 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

+5 252+ Atk Arcanine Flame Wheel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 112-133 (65.1 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

No huge difference in damage + Softboiled>Pain Split + Blissey's Sp Def makes her pretty ultimate tank which you can kill ONLY with Stab/CB Fight move with no other chances to break unless DBond/PSong. Blissey combined with pkmn like Skarmory,Forretress or Slowbro = Ultimate Defense, now lets 2 teams with this pkmn meet(what probably won't be hard) and we get 1h battle of changing and healing,..

2. Gengar should stay, there's still a lot of pkmn's to stop him.

3. Snorlax is fine too.

4. Unban for testing Ttar,Dnite and Salamence.

You should apply for the TC brah

[BurntZebra]

22 minutes ago, ziom34304 said:

My opinion:

1. Ban Blissey, I think Chansey is good enough to stop Gengar, also Blissey is in my opinion better DEF tank than Weezing what's little funny:

+5 252+ Atk Arcanine Flame Wheel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 309-364 (85.3 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

+5 252+ Atk Arcanine Flame Wheel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 112-133 (65.1 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

No huge difference in damage + Softboiled>Pain Split + Blissey's Sp Def makes her pretty ultimate tank which you can kill ONLY with Stab/CB Fight move with no other chances to break unless DBond/PSong. Blissey combined with pkmn like Skarmory,Forretress or Slowbro = Ultimate Defense, now lets 2 teams with this pkmn meet(what probably won't be hard) and we get 1h battle of changing and healing,..

2. Gengar should stay, there's still a lot of pkmn's to stop him.

3. Snorlax is fine too.

4. Unban for testing Ttar,Dnite and Salamence.

What are these magical Pokemon that can counter gengar? I mean there are probably so many Pokemon that can handle a perish trap gengar, sub punch gengar, life orb gengar, scarf gengar, and specs gengar all at the same time. Chansey doesn't stop gengar unless it runs a gimmick move like psychic. I also doubt we'll be unbanning any of the pseudos

[BlackJovi]

Ban gengar already 

[RysPicz]

I would rather still see full meta reset than just ban something. Full reset is a full reset, otherwise we could still have the UU and NU tiers and just bring Lax, Bliss and Gengar for testing. Reseting the meta because of those items (while we still keep seeing the same pokes over and over in OU) and bringing back the mentioned 3 didn't have a big impact on OU itself, it erased the 2 other tiers we already had for um, no reason. Also I have doubts about Tyranitard being OP in where we are + it would be a fantastic way of fucking up Gengar's onslaught. Sure, there might be problems countering it, but with pokes like scarf Hera, scarf Medicham being quite common, Shed Shell Skarm becoming a real thing, we might have a reliable way of dealing with it (and Dragons as well, since they don't have that 120 bp Outrage and Draco Meteor yet, hue).

 

Oh and pls devs, implement legendaries asap! This is the best moment for doing this. Pls :)

Edited May 3, 2016 by RysPicz
I edit because I can

[ReDellaStrada47]

I don't see why Blissey, Snorlax and Gengar could be defeated now with these new item. Honestly I think they are still uber; actually the life orb makes Gengar even better.

I would like to say more, but I have to farm so much that I don't have energy and time for this :( I've discusset enough with team-mates.

 

I don't think OU tier will change so much, and I don't understand why to reset, it would be easier to change single pokemons when a strategy made it OP for a tier.

[XPLOZ]

I am skeptical about bringing back the 3 monsters Ttar Dragonite and Mence and I'll explain a bit why.

 

Tyranitar : I just can't see special offense viable with Blissey + Ttar on the field. One stalling them to death while the other Pursuiting like a king with Choice Scarf. We need to remember that in this meta we don't even have Focus Blast, so it might be a pain to deal with Ttar (at least on the special offensive side). What we can actually say about Ttar is that : #1 DD sets are maybe less frightening because of those Fighting Sweepers around with Choice Scarf, #2 Mixed sets are stronger because of Life Orb. Imo, it is maybe be the less OP between the 3, but also maybe the unhealthiest. An important thing is that we can't take the argument "It will rekt Gengar so it's nice because Gengar is too OP" to bring back Ttar. We just have to wonder if it fits the Uber's caracteristics or not. But I think that we have to discuss it and that a thread should open.

 

Dragonite : It was a monster (mainly as a Choice Bander with the famous set Superpower/Espeed/FirePunch/Dclaw), but it is still one, and maybe even more. Life Orb is amazing on it, and Mixed sets, which could already surprise your opponents, are more reliable than ever. For example, a move like Tbolt on Nite was a bit weak to break bulky Water types, but it is now powerful enough. Saying that "there is Shed Shell so Skarm is safe and YOLO let's bring back those monsters" is wrong imo. #1 No lefto + only Rest as a recovery move, Skarm will dodge the trap but won't last very long on the field. #2 Mixed sets with Life Orb will be a lot more played and will rekt hard this bird. Dragons don't have a 120 bp outrage and Draco Meteor, but in this meta we lack lots of other things too. The steel types are a bit weak comparing to 4G. 3 are used in OU : 2 stalls who lack very good 4G moves and Metagross (which is a big thing, but still slower than Dragonite).

 

Salamence : He actually enjoys a lot those new items. DD + Life Orb is very frightening, Mixed Sets + Life Orb too, Salamence Scarf'd can be a thing. This monster can still be a very good support with Wish... In my opinion, it is just too strong for our meta. I can't really see Dragons coming back, and after all it wouldn't be very logical. Indeed, we banned them while they were less strong. Those monsters (including Ttar) benefit greatly from Life Orb because they are beasts at breaking walls with special moves. Ok there will be some things with Scarf to stop them sometimes, but they can just switch out on a wall (which doesn't fear much a Choice Scarfer), and when they'll come back,  the carnage will continue.

Edited May 3, 2016 by XPLOZ

[Robofiend]

I agree with pretty much everything XPLOZ said (as usual, kinda). Tyranitar is the only thing that might be worth testing, but it seems like part of the reason we'd even consider it is because it checks Gengar, which isn't sound reasoning to bring it back.

 

In any case, we need to give the meta some time to adapt if we're serious about giving Blissey and Gengar (and Snorlax) a chance.

[Monnyz]

I don't know if that was announced already in the thread but I honestly don't feel like reading a big text.

anyways I feel like gengar. Blissey and snorlax should keep Ubers. When I heard the tiers would be reset. I though that some NU would go to UU like sneasel or kabuto. Or even uu like absol. Breelom to ou. Or even some ous like metagross that is really enjoying this new items go to Ubers. But brining gengar blissey and snorlax back. Was a bit stupid (no offense TC)

chansey was already a real headache. Besides fisical sweepers that scare the shit out of chansey. There was very few pokemons that could stand a chance into chansey in a 1v1 and/or counter it. And now blissey. Most od the pokemons thwt could counter chansey are now scared of her. Trapinch gets outspeed and dies with an ice beam. Venusour also doesn't want to take an ice beam since is not mega. Sub focus punch dusclop is not a good choice anymore caus like others. It has that 20% of getting freezed/burned and the others fisical sweepers. They are most likely going to strike an weezing or skarmory

 

snorlax is also an really hard Pokemon  to stop as well. He can just come in middle of the game or even at the end and set up a curse/belly drumb and is ggs. And when u get him low enough or toxiced. Is just gonna rest and laugh on ur face

and finnaly gengar. He's the one that has the most with this new items. The thing on gengar that is really annoying is because he can surprise you when u less expensive. Every time a gengar enters in the battle I've no idea what set be has. Could be a special offensive with choice specs/life orb. Could be a sub focus punch. Or even a mean look perys song. Or even a choice scarf destiny bond to stop sweeps from fast and frail mons. No one knows what set gengar is using. And when they know it can be late with the cost of 1. 2 or even more mons. The only thing thay could stop this thing is more Ubers. And no one wants that. That would be the total chaos. Ban blissey/snorkax/ gebgar or reply with a reason they should keep in OU

Edited May 5, 2016 by Monnyz
fixed some miss pronounced words

[BurntZebra]

"I don't know if that was announced already in the thread but I honestly don't feel like reading a big text.

anyways I feel like gengar. Blissey and snorlax should keep Ubers. When I heard the tiers would be reset. I though that some NU would go to UU like sneasel or kabuto. Or even uu like absol. Breelom to ou. Or even some ous like metagross that is really enjoying this new items go to Ubers. But brining gengar blissey and snorlax back. Was a bit stupid (no offense TC)

chansey was already a real headache. Besides fisical sweepers that scare the shit out of chansey. There was very few pokemons that could stand a chance into chansey in a 1v1 and/or counter it. And now blissey. Most od the pokemons thwt could counter chansey are now scared of her. Trapinch gets outspeed and dies with an ice beam. Venusour also doesn't want to take an ice beam since is not mega. Sub focus punch dusclop is not a good choice anymore caus like others. It has that 20% of getting freezed/burned and the others fisical sweepers. They are most likely going to strike an weezing or skarmory

 

snorlax is also an really hard Pokemon  to stop as well. He can just come in middle of the game or even at the end and set up a curse/belly drumb and is ggs. And when u get him low enough or toxiced. Is just gonna rest and laugh on ur face

and finnaly gengar. He's the one that has the most with this new items. The thing on gengar that is really annoying is because he can surprise you when u less expensive. Every time a gengar enters in the battle I've no idea what set be has. Could be a special offensive with choice specs/life orb. Could be a sub focus punch. Or even a mean look perys song. Or even a choice scarf destiny bond to stop sweeps from fast and frail mons. No one knows what set gengar is using. And when they know it can be late with the cost of 1. 2 or even more mons. The only thing thay could stop this thing is more Ubers. And no one wants that. That would be the total chaos. Ban blissey/snorkax/ gebgar or reply with a reason they should keep in OU"

 

(for some reason quoting is totally broken with new update).

 

That's not what a tier reset is though. Sneasel and kabutops were already usable in UU if you really wanted to run them. Moving pokemon randomly up would accomplish nothing and is against the usage based tiering in general. A pokemon won't get moved up unless it gets enough usage in a higher tier or it gets banned by the tier council. 

 

The main reason why pokemon were brought down with the new items, is because they were banned for being unhealthy/centralizing, but the meta is obviously different now than it was like 8 months ago when gengar was banned. Although I didn't really want to see any ubers come down as I assumed most of them would be too good not to run (and the prediction is somewhat true right now), I think it was the right decision to test some former ubers. I think testing any of the other ubers would have been stupid as all the pseudos gained even more power with life orb/scarf and we only gained a few mediocre checks to them like fast choice scarfers like flygon or gengar. 

 

The tier council (and a majority of the community) had already agreed that chansey was not banworthy so I wouldn't really try to make any arguments claiming it was too OP. Blissey is a bit different, as it threatens basically everything besides snorlax with either a coverage move or thunder wave. I don't see blissey staying in OU too long, as it has over 50% usage when combined with chansey (might not be a valid assumption as some people do run both). And without blissey, gengar is pretty much unchecked as well, so that might get banned eventually too. People seem to like snorlax right now, although I was a bit wary about snorlax in general, as 30% body slam paralysis and the curse set makes snorlax very hard to switch into and even harder to stop. The one thing going against snorlax is stronger special attackers and low kick heracross. But, not everyone wants to run specs/life orb on all their special attackers, just so snorlax doesn't come in for free.