Baton Pass Poll (Remade)

[Matoka]

Baton pass is a move that has a lot of controversy behind it.

 

People claim it is unhealthy, overpowered, annoying to play against and "No one wants it"

 

People claim that we cannot know any of these things without a fair trial to see what it is like in the new meta game which is far far different than that of 2 years ago when baton pass last received it's trail.

 

For those who do not know:
Baton Pass Clause means that only one Pokemon on your team may know the move "Baton Pass".

 

The number of people FOR a trial in one form or another would be the number of people who selected Option 1 plus the number of people who selected Option 2, This would be compared against the number of people who selected Option 3.

 

Feel free to give your reasoning behind your choice.
Simply saying "Nah lets forget it exists" or "I don't like the move" will not help help develop an understanding of why it should remain banned, as there are people who Will not forget it exists and that wants to use it.

Please keeps your reasons OBJECTIVE. Claims that it will be too strong may or may not be correct, but we will not know until a trial is held.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Matoka

[DaftCoolio]

4 minutes ago, Matoka said:

Claims that it will be too strong are not objective as you have no proof.

can u prove it wont be?

[Matoka]

Just now, DaftCoolio said:

can u prove it wont be?

 

No, and I shouldn't need to, this is the reason why it should have a trial, to find this out. I specifically mentioned that quote to give an example that we cannot know any facts until a trial is held.

While the meta is this chaotic already I feel like this is an appropriate time to do a trial so everything settles out quickly and we can get info on baton pass.

[OrangeManiac]

7 minutes ago, Matoka said:

Claims that it will be too strong are not objective as you have no proof.

 

Then what the heck do you need this vote for if you discredit the opposing opinion by default? 

 

I'm all for testing Baton Pass and trying out things but this is such a way to just push your agenda without trying to actually make arguments. People can have legitimate arguments/feelings regarding why Baton Pass is not good for our metagame. You are referring to the fact they haven't been tested but you still cannot claim they "have no proof", it's like saying we would have to test whether Evasion Clause and Sleep Clause are "possibly not needed" in our current metagame. People can say they don't want to see what Baton Pass brings to the competitive game and they are entitled to it if they so wish.

[Matoka]

5 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

 

Then what the heck do you need this vote for if you discredit the opposing opinion by default? 

 

I only mentioned that directed towards people who adamantly claim that it is a fact that it is too strong without testing it first.

 

People saying that they think it will be too strong is entirely fine, and an accepted reason, but is an opinion that can have things supporting it such as examples like the video you provided yesterday, but is not a "fact". I only said that because I do not want the for OR against parties claiming facts without a test first.

 

I edited how I worded it to better reflect what I meant, I did not mean to so harshly discredit those against, my apologies.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Matoka

[Stylish]

Baton pass ban should be replaced with the Baton Pass Clause in my opinion.

This is my thought process:

The new recent items have made the meta shift to a more offensive oriented style, so much so that the tier counsel recognized this and lowered Bliss and Snorlax back into OU.

These new items and the revamp of the physical/special moves seem to make it seem like the game is heading in a direction of modernizing pokemmo (Closest to gen 4 right now, in my opinion.)

However Gen 4, and above had an incredibly pivotal offensive tool in U-Turn and Volt Switch.

The importance of these moves and how strong they are can be checked out here.

Like U-Turn and Volt switch, Baton Pass gives offensive teams the momentum swings that they need to be able to break stall without trapping.

Baton pass can also be used by defensive teams to avoid being pursuit trapped for example.

Scouting is a huge part of the early game when there is no team preview, and baton pass is the best move to scout with.

So to me, if we want a more offensive metagame that leans heavily on the player ability, then the baton pass clause would be a healthy addition to our gameplay.

 

Thoughts?

[BurntZebra]

2 minutes ago, Stylish said:

Baton pass ban should be replaced with the Baton Pass Clause in my opinion.

This is my thought process:

The new recent items have made the meta shift to a more offensive oriented style, so much so that the tier counsel recognized this and lowered Bliss and Snorlax back into OU.

These new items and the revamp of the physical/special moves seem to make it seem like the game is heading in a direction of modernizing pokemmo (Closest to gen 4 right now, in my opinion.)

However Gen 4, and above had an incredibly pivotal offensive tool in U-Turn and Volt Switch.

The importance of these moves and how strong they are can be checked out here.

Like U-Turn and Volt switch, Baton Pass gives offensive teams the momentum swings that they need to be able to break stall without trapping.

Baton pass can also be used by defensive teams to avoid being pursuit trapped for example.

Scouting is a huge part of the early game when there is no team preview, and baton pass is the best move to scout with.

So to me, if we want a more offensive metagame that leans heavily on the player ability, then the baton pass clause would be a healthy addition to our gameplay.

 

Thoughts?

Gen 4 didn't have volt switch and u-turn users were a bit more limited. We also don't have stealth rock which makes baton pass less risky than DPP OU baton passing. Currently, offensive teams don't even need baton pass to beat defensive teams. Also this argument is based off the idea that baton pass wasn't OP in DPP OU, which is debatable. There has been discussion on smogon to retroactively banning baton pass with the same rules as ORAS OU, since baton pass is still pretty powerful in gen 4-5. 

 

I don't know any defensive pokemon that would normally run baton pass, and it can still be pursuit trapped if it outspeeds the pursuit user. 

 

Even though we could probably test baton pass since it's been a long time since it was first banned and the meta is obviously different, I don't really want to see a baton pass test myself. First, full baton pass teams are cancer with ingrain smeargle+a full boosting team, and require very specific movesets and even something like perish song can be stopped by soundproof mr mime. Second, even limiting baton pass to one per team can still be a problem. A gligar or scizor can be used to quick pass an agility and/or swords dance to a physical attacker for a quick sweep, which is pretty unskillful. Scarf and other items do make baton pass less spammable than before, but it's still not too difficult for something like jolteon to baton pass spam to gain massive momentum. 

[Senile]

27 minutes ago, BurntZebra said:

Gen 4 didn't have volt switch and u-turn users were a bit more limited. We also don't have stealth rock which makes baton pass less risky than DPP OU baton passing. Currently, offensive teams don't even need baton pass to beat defensive teams. Also this argument is based off the idea that baton pass wasn't OP in DPP OU, which is debatable. There has been discussion on smogon to retroactively banning baton pass with the same rules as ORAS OU, since baton pass is still pretty powerful in gen 4-5. 

 

I don't know any defensive pokemon that would normally run baton pass, and it can still be pursuit trapped if it outspeeds the pursuit user. 

 

Even though we could probably test baton pass since it's been a long time since it was first banned and the meta is obviously different, I don't really want to see a baton pass test myself. First, full baton pass teams are cancer with ingrain smeargle+a full boosting team, and require very specific movesets and even something like perish song can be stopped by soundproof mr mime. Second, even limiting baton pass to one per team can still be a problem. A gligar or scizor can be used to quick pass an agility and/or swords dance to a physical attacker for a quick sweep, which is pretty unskillful. Scarf and other items do make baton pass less spammable than before, but it's still not too difficult for something like jolteon to baton pass spam to gain massive momentum. 

Pursuit trapping straight up doesn't work against baton passing, your explanation for Pursuit is only how it works vs U-turn/Volt Switch. If you're thinking that doesn't make any sense, you're absolutely right. I also have no idea why people keep bringing up Baton Pass in 4th gen as if it's relevant, we don't have half the nasty Baton Passers gen 4 had, like Celebi, Gliscor, Togekiss and Zapdos.

 

Again, full baton pass things were basically never a thing, and definitely never dominated the metagame when they were banned. Even if they were, conjecturing that they might maybe be good if they're unbanned 2 years later is pretty much a baseless assumption. Honestly, the whole "specific moveset" argument never stuck with me; The biggest answer to Baton Pass was never really bizarre moves and options, those are things you're forced to run if you let BP get going, the real trick is to never let them get going in the first place. The specific answers like Haze are just options that completely shit on Baton Pass if you're forced into a situation where you have to use them, and are incredibly effective at basically destroying that entire team and getting gg ez win m8.

 

As for things like Gligar and Scizor passing boosts for sweeps, or Jolteon passing for momentum, yeah, that's pretty annoying, but that's literally what Baton Pass exists for. That's literally the purpose of the move. Might that be too good? I mean, probably not maybe, that's why it should be tried out.

[Thunderprime]

Annyone who ever fought a ninjask batonpassing 1+ SD to a metagross knows that this move is just OP. not even half the pokemmo players wants this move.

 

-Not an op move in every pokemon game, but in pokemmo yes

[Matoka]

42 minutes ago, Thunderprime said:

Annyone who ever fought a ninjask batonpassing 1+ SD to a metagross knows that this move is just OP. not even half the pokemmo players wants this move.

 

-Not an op move in every pokemon game, but in pokemmo yes

 

Who has ever fought against a Ninjask baton passing to Metagross, wasn't the ban 2 years ago and metagross came out after that? along with Ninjask?

Are you a time traveler?

[BurntZebra]

29 minutes ago, Senile said:

Pursuit trapping straight up doesn't work against baton passing, your explanation for Pursuit is only how it works vs U-turn/Volt Switch. If you're thinking that doesn't make any sense, you're absolutely right. I also have no idea why people keep bringing up Baton Pass in 4th gen as if it's relevant, we don't have half the nasty Baton Passers gen 4 had, like Celebi, Gliscor, Togekiss and Zapdos.

 

Again, full baton pass things were basically never a thing, and definitely never dominated the metagame when they were banned. Even if they were, conjecturing that they might maybe be good if they're unbanned 2 years later is pretty much a baseless assumption. Honestly, the whole "specific moveset" argument never stuck with me; The biggest answer to Baton Pass was never really bizarre moves and options, those are things you're forced to run if you let BP get going, the real trick is to never let them get going in the first place. The specific answers like Haze are just options that completely shit on Baton Pass if you're forced into a situation where you have to use them, and are incredibly effective at basically destroying that entire team and getting gg ez win m8.

 

As for things like Gligar and Scizor passing boosts for sweeps, or Jolteon passing for momentum, yeah, that's pretty annoying, but that's literally what Baton Pass exists for. That's literally the purpose of the move. Might that be too good? I mean, probably not maybe, that's why it should be tried out.

Hm yeah it seems you're right about pursuit vs baton pass. I guess they just decided to make uturn/volt switch slightly more punishable via pursuit. I think gen 4 is relevant to an extent, although we're still missing the damage reducing berries, focus sash, and light clay, all of which aid in making baton pass more powerful. I don't really think it takes 5 extra baton pass users to make it OP or not OP. 

 

Full baton pass teams were definitely a thing, although obviously not everyone was running them, but definitely a select few ran them in officials and outside of officials. Stopping baton pass teams is a lot easier said than done. One 50/50 decision can lead you to lose vs a baton pass team. One choice locked move can let something set up. Running something that isn't an offensive pokemon can open up the opportunity for a baton passer to set up one too many boosts.

 

I'd say gligar/scizor passing boosts could be a bit beyond annoying. Jolteon sub passing probably will probably just be annoying though. 

[codylramey]

51 minutes ago, Senile said:

 

O.o

 

Also im down for a test, i dont think anything will change tho. I feel like the best we could do is allow only 1 BP per team.

[Thunderprime]

nope but it happened to me you dont want to see that happen to you

[Senile]

15 minutes ago, BurntZebra said:

Hm yeah it seems you're right about pursuit vs baton pass. I guess they just decided to make uturn/volt switch slightly more punishable via pursuit. I think gen 4 is relevant to an extent, although we're still missing the damage reducing berries, focus sash, and light clay, all of which aid in making baton pass more powerful. I don't really think it takes 5 extra baton pass users to make it OP or not OP. 

 

Full baton pass teams were definitely a thing, although obviously not everyone was running them, but definitely a select few ran them in officials and outside of officials. Stopping baton pass teams is a lot easier said than done. One 50/50 decision can lead you to lose vs a baton pass team. One choice locked move can let something set up. Running something that isn't an offensive pokemon can open up the opportunity for a baton passer to set up one too many boosts.

 

I'd say gligar/scizor passing boosts could be a bit beyond annoying. Jolteon sub passing probably will probably just be annoying though. 

I mean, the reason I bring up the extra baton pass users is mostly because people keep bringing up 4th gen; Most of them, ESPECIALLY Gliscor, Togekiss and Celebi are all large parts of 4th Gen Baton Pass teams, and Gliscor is probably the single best lone boost-passer you can run on a regular 4th gen team. Not having them is pretty relevant when bringing gen 4 into the discussion.

 

As for baton pass teams...ehhhh, they kind of weren't a thing. A few people ran them in Viridian, there was 1 tournament where a baton pass team swept through and either won or got to finals, and people got really upset about that, but other than that isolated instance Baton Pass teams really never saw much success.

 

You're right that stopping it is easier said than done, but honestly, the same applies to any team archetype. Baton Pass teams crux their entire strategy and all of their odds at winning on this one tactic; If all it took to beat them was running a pokemon with Whirlwind and laughing, it'd be absolute garbage. As for one choice locked move letting something setup, that's honestly a lot more relevant for single Baton Passers like Gligar or Scizor than baton pass teams. With Baton Pass teams, they'll start setting up almost immediately, and within the first 3 turns you should already know what they're doing, if not from turn 1. Plus, like you mentioned, we don't have resist berries or Light Clay, and Brick Break is actually viable on several pokemon, so dual screens support isn't as good as it is in later gens, where BP teams heavily rely on it for early setup.

 

Gligar would probably be doomed to UU, and even if it is a problem there, (honestly I could see it happening), it can just be banned to BL. Scizor probably won't be THAT amazing, but definitely more than annoying. Jolteon sub passing is actually the one I think you're underestimating here, because passing to trappers vs Bliss/Lax switchins seems incredibly annoying, and was actually a huge problem when BP was first banned.

[fredrichnietze]

could the poll be changed to "i want bp to be tested/i do not want it to be tested" for simplicity sake?

 

 

[Matoka]

I didn't know what to expect in terms of poll results, but I'm surprised it's been so consistently balanced between For and Against.

[suigin]

Baton pass isn't bad for the game, get a Phazer, something with a multi hit move(for Ninjask subs), or a taunt user, you shouldn't ban a move that has a pretty decent amount of counterplay.

Hell Shedinja is currently bugged and can't learn the damn move so you can't abuse him.

Edited May 5, 2016 by suigin

[TatsuyaSuo]

Stuff like haze, WW and roar aren't only good against BP but also messes with anything that uses set up moves like DD, SD, BD, etc, (some people even struggle against common-as-f*** DD gyara because they don't even know what their roar tm even does) and there's plenty of things to even take advantage of set up, like encore to allow yourself to counter-set up/switch out/etc, some people just don't like/want to have to think outside their straight-forward meta and claim things are op when there's actually more than one counterplay which don't even require weird specific movesets or strategies, again, those moves prove useful for a variety of scenarios aside of just countering BP.

[NikhilR]

I'm quite sure that well structured BP teams carry taunt and no team runs multiple phazers, so if yours is taunted, then you're fucked. This is just my opinion, but I feel that most of you who are voting for baton pass to come back, haven't played an efficient baton pass team which is incredibly cancerous. 

 

5 hours ago, TatsuyaSuo said:

Stuff like haze, WW and roar aren't only good against BP but also messes with anything that uses set up moves like DD, SD, BD, etc, (some people even struggle against common-as-f*** DD gyara because they don't even know what their roar tm even does) and there's plenty of things to even take advantage of set up, like encore to allow yourself to counter-set up/switch out/etc, some people just don't like/want to have to think outside their straight-forward meta and claim things are op when there's actually more than one counterplay which don't even require weird specific movesets or strategies, again, those moves prove useful for a variety of scenarios aside of just countering BP.

Please list some super viable hazers / roarers apart from Skarm (100% needs Shed Shell which means no recovery). Roar swamp doesn't exist currently and remind me of some encore users as well.

Edited May 5, 2016 by NikhilR

[ShadowGary]

no

[suigin]

2 hours ago, NikhilR said:

I'm quite sure that well structured BP teams carry taunt and no team runs multiple phazers, so if yours is taunted, then you're fucked. This is just my opinion, but I feel that most of you who are voting for baton pass to come back, haven't played an efficient baton pass team which is incredibly cancerous. 

 

Please list some super viable hazers / roarers apart from Skarm (100% needs Shed Shell which means no recovery). Roar swamp doesn't exist currently and remind me of some encore users as well.

Phazers:

Vaporeon Weezing Steelix Quagsire Tentacruel Dusclops

[NikhilR]

 

23 minutes ago, suigin said:

Phazers:

Vaporeon Weezing Steelix Quagsire Tentacruel Dusclops

Vaporeon with haze / roar suffers quite a bit but CAN be useful. Weezing with haze leaves it vulnerable to offense since it loses a coverage move in tbolt or flamethrower, Steelix is pretty much shit in our OU meta, Quagsire has only 2 jobs - walling meta and aero and the latter is hardly used right now. It needs toxic / recover / ice beam / eq and replacing either of those moves with haze could be detrimental. Dusclops with haze is a nice way to deal with curselax but then still doesn't accomplish much. Tentacruel has a nice typing but again would suffer a lot from 4mss where the addition of haze could take away its ability to have a larger impact. I've seen XPLOZ run a surf / sludgebomb / knockoff / rapid spin and you can see how haze would lower Tentacruel's effectiveness because all haze does is eliminate the set ups but not the pokemon that is setting up. 

 

All in all, the efforts one has to put to limit the abuse of baton pass leaves them vulnerable in so many other areas. 

[suigin]

You can't have perfect coverage for everything on every pokemon, it's not like the investment in haze is a bad thing, you might lose some coverage for certain things but in exchange you can deal with setup which is like half the game anyways.

I also seem to have forgotten about Rest Roar Gyarados, a quite underrated set tbh.

[NikhilR]

1 hour ago, suigin said:

You can't have perfect coverage for everything on every pokemon, it's not like the investment in haze is a bad thing, you might lose some coverage for certain things but in exchange you can deal with setup which is like half the game anyways.

I also seem to have forgotten about Rest Roar Gyarados, a quite underrated set tbh.

You're missing the point, because you lack coverage move for a pokemon, you need to pair yourself with a pokemon to take care of the pokemon you could've dealt with. Piata ran a sludgebomb / wow / painsplit / haze Weezing and because he lacked a move for gyarados, he ran a hp electric Ludicolo alongside it and now that Ludicolo has probably compromised on either giga (most likely) / surf / synthesis / leech seed for this. This process keeps repeating and Haze Weezing is really terrible when you want to deal with things like Snorlax because you end up getting parahaxed and you eventually lose. You don't exactly deal with set up either because you end up committing suicide in the process of hazing. I try hazing a SD Heracross (which I anyways lose out to), Gyarados, SD Ursa, it becomes pointless since I'm just gonna keep dying. Can't haze something slower than me like CM Slowbro. Moreover that set allows Gengar to switch in freely apart from the move WoW.

 

Rest - Roar Gyara isn't really an underrated set. It isn't used much in our meta because it's useless in stall as most physical attackers carry thunderpunch or a rock type coverage unlike how it is in DPP. The things it walls are tpunch-less Infernapes (most carry Grass Knot but it needs Nasty Plot to do srs damage), Lucarios, none stone edge gyaras, non tpunch or stone edge Flygons, Scizors, Physical Jirachi, Bronzong, Metagross (hardly encountered any tpunch ones) , Weavile. So you see how that set would be useful in another meta but not ours. 

Edited May 5, 2016 by NikhilR

[Matoka]

50 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

You're missing the point, because you lack coverage move for a pokemon, you need to pair yourself with a pokemon to take care of the pokemon you could've dealt with. Piata ran a sludgebomb / wow / painsplit / haze Weezing and because he lacked a move for gyarados, he ran a hp electric Ludicolo alongside it and now that Ludicolo has probably compromised on either giga (most likely) / surf / synthesis / leech seed for this. This process keeps repeating and Haze Weezing is really terrible when you want to deal with things like Snorlax because you end up getting parahaxed and you eventually lose. You don't exactly deal with set up either because you end up committing suicide in the process of hazing. I try hazing a SD Heracross (which I anyways lose out to), Gyarados, SD Ursa, it becomes pointless since I'm just gonna keep dying. Can't haze something slower than me like CM Slowbro. Moreover that set allows Gengar to switch in freely apart from the move WoW.

 

Rest - Roar Gyara isn't really an underrated set. It isn't used much in our meta because it's useless in stall as most physical attackers carry thunderpunch or a rock type coverage unlike how it is in DPP. The things it walls are tpunch-less Infernapes (most carry Grass Knot but it needs Nasty Plot to do srs damage), Lucarios, none stone edge gyaras, non tpunch or stone edge Flygons, Scizors, Physical Jirachi, Bronzong, Metagross (hardly encountered any tpunch ones) , Weavile. So you see how that set would be useful in another meta but not ours. 

This is making the assumption that the entire team would be baton passers, what about if baton pass clause was present (Which seems like the more competitive choice compared to as many baton passers as you want)