Do not allow the replay system until the tournament is finished!

[KaynineXL]

The fact you can literally watch a good bit of the game, and get a good understanding of your opponents team within the 10 minutes timer is a big flaw in my opinion.

I suggest the replay system of a tournament should be allowed once the tournament is finished.

That is all.


EDIT: My bad, I mean the replay system, not spectating lol.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Pereiraa
Please don't double post.

[Gunthug]

I'm not inherently bashing Smogon or simulators, what I've been preaching is that the unique atmosphere developed around our tournaments is something that was far more exciting to me than with other formats. I could literally walk into an environment filled with competitors, rivals, haters, and fans that could discuss, argue, and cheer all along the way. In a smogon tournament, this is far more limited and lacks the flare that our game used to offer. I can only hope that this design is reintroduced in some form in the future. Otherwise, as Zebra said, it's a very lonely place to play and compete, and one that isn't exciting for me anymore. 

 

Sorry for backtracking, but I just decided to dive into this thread and I noticed my name. 

No worries, I get where you're coming from. I think the atmosphere you're referring to is almost a psychological effect of actually seeing all of our sprites grouped up in one place, which kaynine alluded to earlier in the thread. The comparisons to simulator/showdown/smogon are still confusing, though - I try to drop by the smogon forums a couple times a week, and when I do I see a really vibrant community filled with competitors, rivals, haters, and some of the biggest fans of competitive play in the world.

 

You say that smogon tournaments lack the flair that ours have, are you referring to the spontaneous room-tournaments that sometimes pop up on showdown? Because when I think of a smogon tournament, I think of Smogon Tour or the Smogon Grand Slam, or SPL. So if that's where we're headed, sign me up

 

I do think that the current system has its flaws and can be improved greatly - the fact that the 2 competitors are whisked away to some unheard of channel where they can't talk to anyone is definitely not good (nor does this happen in any smogon/showdown tournament). I've got some thoughts on ways to improve that, but we're already pretty far off topic for this thread (though i'm sure people are greatful for a reprieve from zebra and cody's bickering lel)

[DoubleJ]

No worries, I get where you're coming from. I think the atmosphere you're referring to is almost a psychological effect of actually seeing all of our sprites grouped up in one place, which kaynine alluded to earlier in the thread. The comparisons to simulator/showdown/smogon are still confusing, though - I try to drop by the smogon forums a couple times a week, and when I do I see a really vibrant community filled with competitors, rivals, haters, and some of the biggest fans of competitive play in the world.

 

You say that smogon tournaments lack the flair that ours have, are you referring to the spontaneous room-tournaments that sometimes pop up on showdown? Because when I think of a smogon tournament, I think of Smogon Tour or the Smogon Grand Slam, or SPL. So if that's where we're headed, sign me up

 

I do think that the current system has its flaws and can be improved greatly - the fact that the 2 competitors are whisked away to some unheard of channel where they can't talk to anyone is definitely not good (nor does this happen in any smogon/showdown tournament). I've got some thoughts on ways to improve that, but we're already pretty far off topic for this thread (though i'm sure people are greatful for a reprieve from zebra and cody's bickering lel)

 

I mean that's why our system is unique. We all used to be able to actually gather, in one setting, with a physical presence in the way of our sprites. I could literally just walk up to my opponent, talk some shit and try to be as intimidating as possible if I chose. You can't do that with Smogon. The competition is superior there, but there are aspects here that make MMO a bit superior in my own personal opinion. I like relationships and "togetherness", so this thing is/was pretty fun. 

 

Regardless though, we are pretty off-topic and only arguing about silly things, but as you said the Cody/Zeb Snoozefest was due for a break. 

[codylramey]

 So why is linoone not completely banworthy from OU? Because it requires team support to pull off a clean flail sweep and it takes a pretty good matchup to use the team support to pull off the flail sweep.

 

Okay right here you gave the reason why linoone isnt considered banworthy. You could have stopped here and been 100% correct.

 

As you are able to scout ahead, you can potentially plan against linoone, by either running offense and preventing linoone from setting up (sometimes difficult as offensive teams might give linoone opportunities to set up still like pursuit aero, or they run one defensive pokemon as a backbone of the team and allows linoone to set up) or you can run defensive pokemon like arcanine or dusclops in an attempt to stop linoone from sweeping once it inevitably sets up vs a defensive team. Some of us might not want to be forced to run haunter/dusclops/arcanine to prevent linoone from sweeping through our teams, so we are given the opportunity to scout ahead for it. If your opponent is stupid enough to run a surprise pokemon like linoone two times in a row in a tournament, then you are at an advantage, but if your opponent doesn't run linoone before, then you can potentially be at a disadvantage again since not many people run dusclops/haunter on their standard teams. 

 

Right here you went on a rant that has nothing to do with why linoone isnt ban worthy. Linone takes lots of team support to pull off a clean sweep (your words) and he is cleanly stopped by ghost types unless he runs theif which leaves him opened to being stopped by the most popular poke in the game. IF it was true that he was broken we would open a suspect test thread on him, talk about it, and NOBODY would bring up or take any discussion about scouting srs. Go ahead ant try it, or better yet go back into previous discussions and see if anyone brought up scouting. The dugtrio discussion would have been prime real estate for that topic but it wasnt brought up because it is not a part of the meta.

Also you are failing to realize that you cant scout the first round of a tourny. The fact that this cant be used 100% of the time disqualifies it as being able to be considered apart of the meta.

[OrangeManiac]

I came here to bump this thread. Maybe a little bit salty but it's funny when my opponent openly admits he was able to fully counter me during the 10 minutes of prepare time with the replay. There's honestly no reason to access the replay during the tournament other than for scout purposes.

[FinnTheMember]

Just now, OrangeManiac said:

I came here to bump this thread. Maybe a little bit salty but it's funny when my opponent openly admits he was able to fully counter me during the 10 minutes of prepare time with the replay. There's honestly no reason to access the replay during the tournament other than for scout purposes.

Actually i can agree that idea but, if i cant watch replay, but if i watch lively match = thats mean my friends can watch. if someone has many scouts = nothing change and advantage for crowded organised groups/teams.

 

But if your idea , close replay and lively battle watch both = hmm it has no cons , but that can makes tournaments boring. 

 

sorry for english.

[OrangeManiac]

4 minutes ago, FinnTheMember said:

Actually i can agree that idea but, if i cant watch replay, but if i watch lively match = thats mean my friends can watch. if someone has many scouts = nothing change and advantage for crowded organised groups/teams.

 

But if your idea , close replay and lively battle watch both = hmm it has no cons , but that can makes tournaments boring. 

 

sorry for english.

Not allowing people to spectate is sort of boring considering so many people opt to spectate the tournaments instead of playing. But who would want to watch replays during an ongoing official? No one but a person who wants to scout you. Therefor removing the ability to watch replays when a tournament is on seems like reasonable to me.

Yeah, it doesn't exactly remove scouting altogether. But considering this only has pros and barely any cons I see no reason why this couldn't be a thing to not make a player with the most comps (and therefor ability to counterteam) a favorite in every match by default.

Edited October 30, 2016 by OrangeManiac

[FinnTheMember]

Just now, OrangeManiac said:

Not allowing people to spectate is sort of boring considering so many people opt to spectate the tournaments instead of playing. Who would want to watch replays during an ongoing official? No one but a person who wants to scout you. Therefor removing the ability to watch replays when a tournament is on seems like reasonable to me.

Yeah, it doesn't exactly removing scouting altogether. But considering this only has pros and barely any cons I see no reason why this couldn't be a thing to not make a player with the most comps (and therefor ability to counterteam) a favorite in every match by default.

Yes you are right. I just thought like, if crowded groups have an advantage like that, we must give a little chance to every player with watch replays. But , still you are right.

[XPLOZ]

Big teams might get an advantage over little teams / players without any team because they will easily find mates to watch live battles.

[Thunderprime]

@SweeTforU scouting? Nah you dont need dis.

 

But yeah another pros: i'm tired to wait 9min50 second so my oppenent can maximise the scouting.

Some people dont have 50 pokes in each tier so they would get more chances on the lower braquet

[BlackJovi]

Can't you switch teams? 

[Gazelli]

A change like this wouldn't benefit players who are working through a bracket on their own. Big teams can easily have one of their members scout the next opponent, just count every 2 downwards. Every alternate pair will be matched up with each other, so it's not like you don't know who you are going to face. Thus, the player playing alone may have no idea of what team his opponent could bring, but his opponent already has a counter team since a teammate has scouted for him. The only people who will benefit from this change are those who are in big teams and have people who can scout. At any rate, doesn't the current system encourage players to use different teams and Pokemon? If people didn't have the ability to scout, they would only run teams they are comfortable with. Moreover, the person who has been scouted can easily change the whole structure of his team to avoid being counter teamed completely, which could in fact, give an upper hand to the person who has been scouted. The fact that people are complaining about being scouted means they aren't creative enough, or ballsy enough, to create different kinds of teams. 

 

The main point being that the current system provides an opportunity for solo players to scout their opponent. If that opponent happens to be in a big team, it would even out the playing field since it is likely the person in the bigger team already has scouts on them. On the other hand, the system proposed offers no solution to solo players, and in fact only gives incentive for bigger teams to have people ready to scout. 

 

Edit: I have a suggestion, for those who continue to be concerned about the scouting issue. Often times there comes a player who likes to write down the sets and gender of other people's comps, for future reference. Though it may not seem like a big deal, in major tourneys it would let the person who has scouted take an accurate guess as to what the set of the pokemon is. Perhaps censoring the gender when in a PVP battle could provide a more competitive and unpredictable battle system. Though this may be tough to implement, and may not be worth it, I personally feel it's a "step forward in the right direction" as Craig has mentioned before. Just a suggestion at the end of the day tho.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Gazelli
Didn't feel like double posting

[NikhilR]

For me the problem lies with the grind it takes to breed comps. A person with 6 comps has a very, very low chance of winning a tournament because no team is perfect or built to handle everything, which is why you need to have different teams which have a better chance of winning depending on what your opponent likes to run. Scouting works both ways, so there's nothing stopping you from changing your team because you can't tell me that your team is rock solid and that after watching your opponent's replay, there was nothing in his team that could pose a big threat to you. Again, the problem lies with people not being able to build different solid teams. If your opponent is solely focused on counterteaming, then he's very well likely to forget to run something to handle a very common threat in the tier. There are also variations in counterteaming, where people run pokemon to either break the opponent's defense, handle the offense or even both. When that happens you're massively restricting yourself and I've heard players say that they've lost because they counterteamed too. The reason people go for cteaming is because it's the easiest approach to get a win apart from running confusion inducing moves (pls ban). Building a solid team with having the better matchup 90% of the time is what makes a good player and playing through having a worse matchup is what makes a better player. Scouting helps you know what sort of playstyle your opponent likes to run, which allows you to better understand their mentality and what kind of plays they make. 

 

Like Gazelli said, the proposed system makes it easier for players in bigger teams to be prepared while solo players will have it more difficult. The current system of tournaments makes it fair for both players to be prepared for each other, but it's the access to a larger no. of comps which gives the more experienced player the advantage. The best way to approach this would be to randomize the bracket since then you'll be forced to run a well built team. 

Edited October 31, 2016 by NikhilR

[Hotarubi]

On 4/1/2016 at 11:41 AM, KaynineXL said:

The fact you can literally watch a good bit of the game, and get a good understanding of your opponents team within the 10 minutes timer is a big flaw in my opinion.

I suggest the replay system of a tournament should be allowed once the tournament is finished.

That is all.


EDIT: My bad, I mean the replay system, not spectating lol.

You have my 100% support here.

This is how I run every tournament I host.

I believe it stops people from countering individuals who in fact have less pokemon to choose from than they opponent.

It also sets grounds for a fair match not knowing who you're about to face and with what Pokemon that individual will battle.

 

[GergFalerg]

What if they continue making automated tournies like they are now, with a clear bracket and replay possibility... but also make other automated tournies specifically for no scouting, with the bracket shuffled every round and no replay until the tourny ends.

[GeneralVenican]

would be heck of alot easier to just it so participants in the tourney cant watch other while the tourney is going on, even tho u can have a friend to do it for you, it will still limit the amount of scouting

[DoubleJ]

I like this idea, but there is one major flaw to this suggestion. Without an available replay system throughout the duration of a tournament, there should be less scouting, which is good because scouting is toxic to many of us.

 

My counter argument is that by removing the replay system, you give more power to players that are in big teams. Players that are in big teams can rely on their teammates to scout their opponents for them and provide that information during the 10-minute team building phase without ever replaying the match. If there is no replay system, individual players who are not a part of a big team or have friends to scout for them will be at a severe disadvantage, even more so than with a replay. 

 

The ultimate solution would be to remove the replay system and also prevent spectating too, but this is poor idea since watching a match live is inherently a "fun" aspect to PokeMMO and something that keeps community based events popular. 

 

So, I don't believe this suggestion will fix anything and provide even more problems by giving power to players in bigger teams. 

[Munya]

42 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

The ultimate solution would be to remove the replay system and also prevent spectating too, but this is poor idea since watching a match live is inherently a "fun" aspect to PokeMMO and something that keeps community based events popular. 

 

Not even sure that would be the end all solution since big teams might have multiple people competing, if a teammate loses and another team member ends up playing against that person they could just pass on the information they obtained from their previous match.  This is no way reliable since you don't get to pick who you are fighting when you sign up but it could at some point occur.

 

Personally, it might extend tournaments which could cause a problem but I am more for the idea of people finish round 1, they wait until everybody finishes round 1 then round 2 begins with a re-randomized bracket, and continue this until the finals.  You might still be able to get a rough idea of what your opponents might have with enough teammates watching but counter team building probably wouldn't be as big of an issue.

[DoubleJ]

3 minutes ago, Munya said:

Personally, it might extend tournaments which could cause a problem but I am more for the idea of people finish round 1, they wait until everybody finishes round 1 then round 2 begins with a re-randomized bracket, and continue this until the finals.  You might still be able to get a rough idea of what your opponents might have with enough teammates watching but counter team building probably wouldn't be as big of an issue.

This would make the most sense and give everyone the appropriate amount of time to "scout/counter" equally, but this argument doesn't do the OP any justice since they simply want scouting and counter teaming to not be a thing anymore. 

[Munya]

1 minute ago, DoubleJ said:

This would make the most sense and give everyone the appropriate amount of time to "scout/counter" equally, but this argument doesn't do the OP any justice since they simply want scouting and counter teaming to not be a thing anymore. 

The bracket wouldn't show until the second round actually starts, they'll have 10 minutes from the last match to the next round start to change their team if they wish but they won't know who they are facing until the round actually begins, counter teaming wouldn't be an issue until probably the last round, maybe the semis.

[pachima]

Randomized bracket each round plz. Not flawless but turns early rounds much harder to scout. Also, delayed spectates besides the finals would be great.

[Murcielago]

Scouting is part of the game.  If match replay was to be removed it would simply give bigger advantage to larger more established teams (who would be scouting with other players) while allowing individuals to watch replays helps to level the playing field.  Any/all tournament sports have an element of scouting involved.

[LifeStyle]

You can remove match replays but you can't remove Osuki's notebook

[GeneralVenican]

remove the bracket and release it after the tourney, easy

[Munya]

2 hours ago, GeneralVenican said:

remove the bracket and release it after the tourney, easy

Needs to be a way to spectate, removing the bracket removes that, and if you show the battles somewhere you can still get a rough idea of who you are facing or what the hidden bracket looks like via the battles that have ended/started for the next round.

[GeneralVenican]

40 minutes ago, Munya said:

Needs to be a way to spectate, removing the bracket removes that, and if you show the battles somewhere you can still get a rough idea of who you are facing or what the hidden bracket looks like via the battles that have ended/started for the next round.

no, remove the bracket as in we cant see who the next opponent is. we can still spectate ingame, this gives the people less time to scout their last match and removes the thing about teammates scouting the entire next opponents match

Edited November 2, 2016 by GeneralVenican