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Do not allow the replay system until the tournament is finished!


KaynineXL

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I mean scouting is always happening, whether the actual player is doing the scouting or they have their friends scout their future opponents. Although some people might not want to admit it, scouting is an integral part of competitive play, in both our competitive environment and smogon tournaments/other formal tournament environments. One of the facets of being a good comp player is to consider the possibility of your opponent running a counter team and then make appropriate changes to your own team.

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I mean scouting is always happening, whether the actual player is doing the scouting or they have their friends scout their future opponents. Although some people might not want to admit it, scouting is an integral part of competitive play, in both our competitive environment and smogon tournaments/other formal tournament environments. One of the facets of being a good comp player is to consider the possibility of your opponent running a counter team and then make appropriate changes to your own team.

 

no.  Scouting =/= Competitive

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no.  Scouting =/= Competitive

Scouting is a part of every competitive thing ever. Pretty much every sport has scouting in an attempt to gain an advantage over the opponent. Most other games also involve scouting, dealing with analyzing strategy and trying to counter a certain strategy. Pokemon is no exception. There's scouting in VGC. There's scouting in the Smogon official tournaments. There's scouting in our tournaments, regardless of the replay system being in effect or not. 

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Scouting is a part of every competitive thing ever. Pretty much every sport has scouting in an attempt to gain an advantage over the opponent. Most other games also involve scouting, dealing with analyzing strategy and trying to counter a certain strategy. Pokemon is no exception. There's scouting in VGC. There's scouting in the Smogon official tournaments. There's scouting in our tournaments, regardless of the replay system being in effect or not.

You're arguing for no reason right now other than to argue. Scouting is obviously bad. Just because you're being pessimist by saying it won't go away doesn't mean we cant take steps to make it less worse. Baby steps Zebra. This is like saying we shouldn't ban Salamence to Ubers because something else is going to broken, then we're going to have to ban more. Something will always be strong. We can't achieve balance, but we can work towards it. Slippery slope Zebra. Slipper mo fuckin slope. Making scouting less prevalent is possible. Arguing against this suggestion is nonsensical.

Edited by DrCraig
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Scouting is a part of every competitive thing ever. Pretty much every sport has scouting in an attempt to gain an advantage over the opponent. Most other games also involve scouting, dealing with analyzing strategy and trying to counter a certain strategy. Pokemon is no exception. There's scouting in VGC. There's scouting in the Smogon official tournaments. There's scouting in our tournaments, regardless of the replay system being in effect or not. 

 

Isn't this a fallacy? Like assuming that if something is already happening commonly it is not a bad thing?

 

As I said before in another thread, this can all be avoided if your opponent is secret. Until you reach semifinals, you will pretty much not be able to scout. The idea is to get ready for your battle without knowing who you will face. This way, spectators can watch any match without influencing the outcome of the tournament.

 

Also, this topic should include a poll to see if the community is for or against scouting.

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I mean scouting is always happening, whether the actual player is doing the scouting or they have their friends scout their future opponents. Although some people might not want to admit it, scouting is an integral part of competitive play, in both our competitive environment and smogon tournaments/other formal tournament environments. One of the facets of being a good comp player is to consider the possibility of your opponent running a counter team and then make appropriate changes to your own team.

If that's the case, we might as well show who is fighting in the future rounds instead of keeping it hidden. It makes no sense to have a half hidden bracket while you can just spectate the game. Not only will allowing people to spectate ultimately slowing down the whole tournament as people will try scout as much as possible but it is a big disadvantage for the newer players who don't have the quantity of comps others have.

 

Eitherway, this change will stop scouting in early rounds, so it's a step in the right direction.

 

@keith, not sure how to do that.

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Just like when the tournament starts, and you are plunged directly into a match withhout knowing who you face. It can be easily tweaked to be like that in every round.

Oh no, I understood what you meant, it's a good idea. I mean I don't know how to do a poll.

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My problem with this is it doesn't fix the entire issue, some players will still have teamates spectate for them, which still leaves another player at a disadvantage if they don't have a teammate to do that.  A way to fix it entirely, while still allowing people to watch matches else tournament chat be killed entirely, is what needs to be done.

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My problem with this is it doesn't fix the entire issue, some players will still have teamates spectate for them, which still leaves another player at a disadvantage if they don't have a teammate to do that.  A way to fix it entirely, while still allowing people to watch matches else tournament chat be killed entirely, is what needs to be done.

Firstly, you can't really scout early rounds because there are so many games being played and you won't know who you've got until you're actually put together. Of course there is no way to remove scouting entirely, but this will reduce it by a lot.

 

Sorry to break this to you, but tournament chat is dead anyway. Since the move from Silph co, there is no atmosphere to tournaments. I don't think scouting plays any part in that.

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Firstly, you can't really scout early rounds because there are so many games being played and you won't know who you've got until you're actually put together. Of course there is no way to remove scouting entirely, but this will reduce it by a lot.

Sorry to break this to you, but tournament chat is dead anyway. Since the move from Silph co, there is no atmosphere to tournaments. I don't think scouting plays any part in that.

I'm 95% sure the in game bracket tells you who you're going to play, just count by 2's. Even if tournament chat is dead, it's pretty unlikely that team chat just randomly dies during a tournament. Scouting has and always will be present, even with a hidden bracket. Last hidden bracket tournament, I was able to just get a quick count of like 8 people's teams and then by luck, I was matched with one of those 8. Then the odds only increase with fewer and fewer people. I just don't think scouting can be removed ever unless you don't allow spectating at all.
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You're arguing for no reason right now other than to argue.

 

I mean it is good to bring as many opinions as possible but the point was not to remove scouting completly, the others admitted that it is impossible but the goal is to reduce it, if even only a little.

 

As a player who doesn't have a lot of comps I know how hard it is to get past second round where you suddenly get matched up with an experienced player who got to see your first match and is happily counterteaming you.

 

I see the point in having to be able to adapt/predict to what your opponent is gonna bring after he has been able to scout you but I also think it is better for peole to be able to build all around good teams for whatever player they are facing and relaying on your ability to outplay your opponent instead of winning 'cause you were able to counterteam him.

 

If I am wrong please tell me but this how I see the situation.

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You're arguing for no reason right now other than to argue. Scouting is obviously bad. Just because you're being pessimist by saying it won't go away doesn't mean we cant take steps to make it less worse. Baby steps Zebra. This is like saying we shouldn't ban Salamence to Ubers because something else is going to broken, then we're going to have to ban more. Something will always be strong. We can't achieve balance, but we can work towards it. Slippery slope Zebra. Slipper mo fuckin slope. Making scouting less prevalent is possible. Arguing against this suggestion is nonsensical.

Why is it obviously bad? I think it's more skillful to change your team to adapt to your opponent's pokemon and playstyle, rather than just building one team and using it throughout the tournament, even though it will be at a clear disadvantage if someone spectates your match at all. There's no good way to build a perfect team that doesn't require changes from round to round, as there are just too many threats in every tier to cover, and we lack choice scarf so defensive pokemon are the only way to stop offensive pokemon at times. 

 

I don't really think the salamence argument is relevant at all. First, banning salamence didn't make anything else broken because it was just straight up offensive uber and didn't really impact team building outside of people running slowbro+2 steel types, so nothing got more or less broken. What exactly is the balance you're seeking in this? Before this system, teams with large teams could have people scout out opponents, and have a clear advantage over people who don't have 15 members online for a tournament to scout future opponents. Now with this system, nothing has really changed still, but sort of levels the playing ground across all different sizes of teams. 

 

I don't see the point of making scouting less prevalent when people can still easily do it.

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I'm 95% sure the in game bracket tells you who you're going to play, just count by 2's. Even if tournament chat is dead, it's pretty unlikely that team chat just randomly dies during a tournament. Scouting has and always will be present, even with a hidden bracket. Last hidden bracket tournament, I was able to just get a quick count of like 8 people's teams and then by luck, I was matched with one of those 8. Then the odds only increase with fewer and fewer people. I just don't think scouting can be removed ever unless you don't allow spectating at all.

I just checked the bracket and you're right. That's really lame, and needs to be changed.

 

I'm not against scouting, I am against people who understand the bracket mechanics having an advantage over those newer players that don't know, or wouldn't think to check the replay system, or even as you say this 'counting by 2s'. It's a big deal that you can scout using the replay system, but it will also make the tournament considerably longer just because everyone will want to check the replay and attempt to counter team their opponent. Sure you can scout if you really try hard, but I can bet 90% of the players won't, which is a good improvement(not until the later rounds anyway, when it gets easier).

 

Randomize your opponent + Don't allow replays until the tournament is finished.

 

Also, about the tournament chat is dead, that's not really relevant to the situation, but I just find it removes that MMO feel from tournaments, it's what separates it from just playing Showdown. It just feels like a simulator.

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I just checked the bracket and you're right. That's really lame, and needs to be changed.

 

I'm not against scouting, I am against people who understand the bracket mechanics having an advantage over those newer players that don't know, or wouldn't think to check the replay system, or even as you say this 'counting by 2s'. It's a big deal that you can scout using the replay system, but it will also make the tournament considerably longer just because everyone will want to check the replay and attempt to counter team their opponent. Sure you can scout if you really try hard, but I can bet 90% of the players won't, which is a good improvement(not until the later rounds anyway, when it gets easier).

 

Randomize your opponent + Don't allow replays until the tournament is finished.

 

Also, about the tournament chat is dead, that's not really relevant to the situation, but I just find it removes that MMO feel from tournaments, it's what separates it from just playing Showdown. It just feels like a simulator.

I mean it's not like I've been around this new tournament system forever. I realized that the bracket in game is just basically the challonge bracket within 5 minutes of seeing the round 2 match ups. It won't make the tournament that much longer, in fact, it'll still be shorter than staff run tournaments because the 10 minute countdown (which is actually 9 minutes) starts as soon as the two players are done with their matches. 

 

I do wish there was a better chat system for the new tournament system, as the whole environment feels kind of lonely, when there's no designated place for people to meet, but that's a problem for another day/thread. 

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I mean it's not like I've been around this new tournament system forever. I realized that the bracket in game is just basically the challonge bracket within 5 minutes of seeing the round 2 match ups. It won't make the tournament that much longer, in fact, it'll still be shorter than staff run tournaments because the 10 minute countdown (which is actually 9 minutes) starts as soon as the two players are done with their matches. 

 

I do wish there was a better chat system for the new tournament system, as the whole environment feels kind of lonely, when there's no designated place for people to meet, but that's a problem for another day/thread. 

Hmm, just because you noticed it, doesn't mean everyone else will. I for one didn't, and there are probably a lot of others that did not. It's still giving the people with the better understanding of the tournament mechanics a better chance, whether that's right or wrong, apparently we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

Yes, of course it's still faster than the staff run ones, but does that really mean we shouldn't aim to make them shorter if we could?

 

About the chat system, it wouldn't be so bad, but one of the flaws in it, those that are fighting in that 'arena' are not on the same channel as the spectators which I feel is not good for the atmosphere. There isn't much of a way to fix this, sure allowing us to be on the same channel helps, picking a designated location probably wouldn't be a bad idea, but I doubt it'll fix the problem all together.

 

I think there should be a mix up on tournaments, automated ones and Silph Co ones.

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I love how people throw around the phrase "it's like we're playing on a simulator" as if showdown/smogon are way less dramatic and less intense than our SUPER SPECIAL UNIQUE competitive community lol. Not saying the automated tourney system isn't without its flaws, a universal tourney chat is a must, but the analogy is ridiculous haha.

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I love how people throw around the phrase "it's like we're playing on a simulator" as if showdown/smogon are way less dramatic and less intense than our SUPER SPECIAL UNIQUE competitive community lol. Not saying the automated tourney system isn't without its flaws, a universal tourney chat is a must, but the analogy is ridiculous haha.

There is a difference between Silph Co tournaments and automated ones. Word it however you like, but it's the truth. No need to get upset because I made your beloved showdown tournaments sound worse than PokeMMO tournaments, that's purely based on my opinion.

Edited by KaynineXL
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There is a difference between Silph Co tournaments and automated ones. Word it however you like, but it's the truth. No need to get upset because I made your beloved showdown tournaments sound worse than PokeMMO tournaments, that's purely based on my opinion.

You're entitled to your opinion, much like I'm entitled to point out how ridiculous it is. It's one that JJ has been promulgating for months now with absolutely no basis. No need to give "pokemon simulator" a negative connotation at all, especially when we should be striving to capture the magic of smogon's tournament series.

 

And I completely disagree with that premise, anyways. If everyone is gathered in the same place, and everyone has the ability to talk with each other on one channel during tournaments, what is the difference between a silph co tournament and an automated one? I can think of 2 - First, when a battle is over and your overworld renders again, you're in a slightly different place, and second, you have a much shorter run to the PC between battles. This is just another example of luddites who are clinging to the old system simply because it's familiar to them. That being said, I'm sure even when we get the necessary tweaks to automated tournaments, people will still make passive aggressive comments here and there about "things "just not being the same" and "the good old days"

 

Now, that aside, I agree wholeheartedly with your suggestion in the OP. The only scouting that should be encouraged and facilitated in this game is the scouting that takes place after a match has started. People should be locked out of replaying tourney matches until a tournament is over, and I'd even move for a hidden bracket

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You're entitled to your opinion, much like I'm entitled to point out how ridiculous it is. It's one that JJ has been promulgating for months now with absolutely no basis. No need to give "pokemon simulator" a negative connotation at all, especially when we should be striving to capture the magic of smogon's tournament series.

 

And I completely disagree with that premise, anyways. If everyone is gathered in the same place, and everyone has the ability to talk with each other on one channel during tournaments, what is the difference between a silph co tournament and an automated one? I can think of 2 - First, when a battle is over and your overworld renders again, you're in a slightly different place, and second, you have a much shorter run to the PC between battles. This is just another example of luddites who are clinging to the old system simply because it's familiar to them. That being said, I'm sure even when we get the necessary tweaks to automated tournaments, people will still make passive aggressive comments here and there about "things "just not being the same" and "the good old days"

 

Now, that aside, I agree wholeheartedly with your suggestion in the OP. The only scouting that should be encouraged and facilitated in this game is the scouting that takes place after a match has started. People should be locked out of replaying tourney matches until a tournament is over, and I'd even move for a hidden bracket

That's fair enough.

 

There is one more factor I think, if you're all grouped together, I'd say it's more encouraging to talk. There is no proof that this would be the case, but I can only imagine it would.

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What is? Hiding the bracket or delaying the replay until after the tourny is over? And how so?

 

Both.

 

One of the major complaints is the lack of atmosphere in tournaments.

 

Hiding the bracket and disabling replays until the tournament is over is a really good way to discourage spectators.

Nobody is able to come into a tourney mid-way and have any idea what is going on, letalone those who have started watching from the beginning.

 

I think there are better ways to address the issue without hurting the user friendliness of the system, although most would require a rewrite and likely would not be worth it.

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