What is the point of temporarily owning legendaries?

[Frublet]

It honestly isn't worth trying to catch them if I can't keep them for long and personally isn't a whole lot of fun. It would be nice to be able to own them. I'm not suggesting that it should change yet, I just wanted to know people's opinion on what the point of it is and why the developers made it this way.

The following are arguments I've heard and my counter argument to them:

1. If everyone owned a legendary, they wouldn't be legendary.

Me: Being rare and difficult to catch along with their outstanding stats makes them Legendary.

2. They would be overpowered in pvp.

Me: They can be banned from pvp if they're too powerful or to the uber tier.

3. They wouldn't be necessary for the storyline and pvp and therefore wouldn't serve a purpose.

Me: Shiny Magikarp isn't useful for either, yet worth around 7m. And although not necessary to beat the storyline, they would be powerful and able to aid in such an endeavor.

Will list more if they are mentioned in this thread.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Frublet

[XelaKebert]

It honestly isn't worth trying to catch them if I can't keep them for long and personally isn't a whole lot of fun. It would be nice to be able to own them. I'm not suggesting that it should change yet, I just wanted to know people's opinion on what the point of it is and why the developers made it this way.

The following are arguments I've heard and my counter argument to them.

1. If everyone owned a legendary, they wouldn't be legendary.

Me: Being rare and difficult to catch along with their outstanding stats makes them Legendary.

2. They would be too overpowered in pvp.

Me: They can be banned from pvp if they're too powerful, even banned from ubers if necessary.

Will list more if they are mentioned in this thread.

 

Currently the only two available canonically have only one in existence ever as well. Being that this is an MMO, having some legends that don't get kept permanently does help keep the rarity in check. If everyone was just handed one like they were in the handhelds they would not be rare or legendary anymore either. There are plans for other legends that aren't as powerful as Mewtwo and Rayqauza, but that is all the further information that is available about them.

[pachima]

Being banned from pvp means you cant use them at all. Using legendaries for storyline npcs seems a waste.

[XelaKebert]

That is the point of not being able to keep them permanently. The two that are available would also have been banned from Ubers to begin with, so what purpose would having one permanently serve? If they are a waste for storyline NPCs, then they don't really serve a purpose at all. You wouldn't be able to use them in PvP and there wouldn't be much desire to use them in PvE.

[Eggplant]

It honestly isn't worth trying to catch them if I can't keep them for long and personally isn't a whole lot of fun.
 

 

Well, the system's been in place for years now I'm pretty sure.

But when mewtwo first came out, it definitely was fun. And that was point enough.

 

I remember when [Aw] got together and hid in odd places as a group, and would spam passersby with trade requests and things so their leader could run away and hide somewhere else. But mewtwo was really popular at the time and half the server was hunting for it, so it was a big deal! :x

[Toupi]

It's still very fun and exciting to catch mewtwo/rayquaza. You are alone in cave/tower mindlessly searching for legendary, suddenly you catch it and whole room fill instantly with trainers :D and you get fight after fight.

[fredrichnietze]

xela pls. something you cant have isnt rare, it doesnt exist. thats like saying agumon is rare. you cant actually have mewtwo or rayquaza. it's like if you go to a farm and they let you pickup a baby animal. you dont actually own it. you cant do whatever you want with it. you cant keep it. it's not yours. 

another example is the amazon kindle. you can "buy things" from them but you dont own them. they can delete it at will. they can limit how many times/people can watch it. you cant back it up or move it to another device. and god forbid you actually sell it. you cant even expand the memory. you do not own it.

 

if you put a large amount of effort into it, you can "borrow" a legendary for a few minutes, or maybe a few hours tops. it has no benefits other then "fun" of doing the mini game. and it's exactly the same every time. in a single player game this as a end game quest would be ok. but their is no reward and no real reason to do it especially in a mmo environment. 

 

you can ask "but whats the point of having them in game? well the ubers could play in ubers tournaments like tytr and sala, but other then that the only reason is your player base wants it. 

 

are their cons to adding them? sure. but how it is now is just a waste of dev time. 

 

[spoiler]

not that i care im dead

[/spoiler]

[ShinyFord]

Probably point of catching Mewtwo/Rayqauza is just to collect their pokedex data, and it's also kind of a sub event - Trainers vs Special Trainer.

When the owner loses a battle, the winner will be Special Trainer since the legendary joins him. Special trainer can't deny battles otherwise legendary wouldn't be happy.  The process repeats after, repeats after, blah blah. 

You can't even use them in Battle Frontier, even in original games unless a cheat allows that, what's the point of keeping them only for storyline? Seems a waste.

 

There are plans for less powerful legendaries in the future. It's been said many times, I think.

Wait for it to happen or in dream.

[mastaslick]

The point of having the legendary in the game is to show it off because u worked hard for it so it's like an end game trophy.

I keep hearing people say their is only one of each legendary but many legendary have others of their kind if u wanna be technical plus, why does everything have to be about gain I have a master ball that I can't sell or trade that's not worth anything and those are rare only one of them in the game but everyone has it so y not the same with legends

[XelaKebert]

The point of having the legendary in the game is to show it off because u worked hard for it so it's like an end game trophy.

I keep hearing people say their is only one of each legendary but many legendary have others of their kind if u wanna be technical plus, why does everything have to be about gain I have a master ball that I can't sell or trade that's not worth anything and those are rare only one of them in the game but everyone has it so y not the same with legends

That Master Ball itself is a gift given out during the storyline. Mewtwo and Rayquaza are optional captures after you complete the storyline.

 

Since this is an MMO, everything has to be about how it will impact the in game economy. Things cannot just be added willy nilly without consequences. If everyone were to have a legendary Pokemon, they would be neither rare nor legendary and the desire for anyone to go capture one would go down. This is completely different from the Master Ball which, while bound to your character, has a very minimal impact on the economy. The Master Ball is a one time use against any Pokemon, except legendaries, and you have to confirm that you want to use it.

[Darkshade]

What is the point of video games? Fun and a sense of accomplishment.

We do have plans to add permanent legendaries via dungeons in the future.

Hopefully you'll survive until then.

[RysPicz]

We do have plans to add permanent legendaries via dungeons in the future.

The same kind of plans you got for pp ups and maxes? :v)

[Darkshade]

The same kind of plans you got for pp ups and maxes? :v)

Not quite.

[Rigamorty]

What is the point of video games? Fun and a sense of accomplishment.

We do have plans to add permanent legendaries via dungeons in the future.

Hopefully you'll survive until then.

the fun and sense of accomplishment of these legendaries are pretty non existent though. They were popular the first couple days and then they kinda died. Is it really unreasonable to even consider changing it?

[BigShotJoe]

If everyone were to have a legendary Pokemon, they would be neither rare nor legendary and the desire for anyone to go capture one would go down. 

To be fair, Dragonite, Salamence, Tyranitar, and Metagross are just as powerful (more powerful in cases such as Zapdos, Moltres, and Articuno) than the legendaries you are thinking of, yet they are fucking everywhere. They became such a powerful and common force that they were banned (I could go on about legendaries helping to bring them back out of ubers but that's for another time). Sure they aren't the most common Pokemon in the wild, but that hasn't stopped anyone from obtaining them, should they want to. Even with the current breeding system, Metagross is on nearly every single OU team. Rarity does not prevent a person from getting a Pokemon they want, it merely slows the spread of this Pokemon slightly. Something like a legendary Pokemon is going to be a very sought-after prize. Everyone will have one, regardless of rarity. The only to prevent this would be to manually control how many legendaries are in the game. I think we can all agree this is a terrible idea from a competitive aspect.

[XelaKebert]

To be fair, Dragonite, Salamence, Tyranitar, and Metagross are just as powerful (more powerful in cases such as Zapdos, Moltres, and Articuno) than the legendaries you are thinking of, yet they are fucking everywhere. They became such a powerful and common force that they were banned (I could go on about legendaries helping to bring them back out of ubers but that's for another time). Sure they aren't the most common Pokemon in the wild, but that hasn't stopped anyone from obtaining them, should they want to. Even with the current breeding system, Metagross is on nearly every single OU team. Rarity does not prevent a person from getting a Pokemon they want, it merely slows the spread of this Pokemon slightly. Something like a legendary Pokemon is going to be a very sought-after prize. Everyone will have one, regardless of rarity. The only to prevent this would be to manually control how many legendaries are in the game. I think we can all agree this is a terrible idea from a competitive aspect.

 

Both of those Pokemon were unhealthy enough to be banned from even Ubers in competitive play outside of PokeMMO if that says anything. The Pokemon that are banned to Ubers in here are outclassed by both Mewtwo and Rayquaza that matches would come down to who had the better legend. I've linked a side by side comparison of the Pokemon that are Ubers here with Rayquaza and Mewtwo with stats from Gen 6 and Gen 3 to give you an idea.

 

http://veekun.com/dex/gadgets/compare_pokemon?pokemon=Rayquaza&pokemon=Dragonite&pokemon=Salamence&pokemon=Tyranitar&pokemon=Metagross&pokemon=Mewtwo

http://veekun.com/dex/gadgets/compare_pokemon?pokemon=Rayquaza&pokemon=Dragonite&pokemon=Salamence&pokemon=Tyranitar&pokemon=Metagross&pokemon=Mewtwo&version_group=6

 

I'm not going to delve too far into discussions on tiering because that is not my domain of expertise. However, if you think that Metagross warrants a ban to Ubers you should request a discussion on it in the OU discussion request thread.

 

That point aside, having Mewtwo and Rayquaza temporarily actually gives them use. If everyone could have one they would have to be banned from tiered PvP. Not just banned to Ubers, but banned entirely because they outclass literally everything in Ubers. They are not competitive at all. So if you had one, what purpose would it serve you?

[BigShotJoe]

Both of those Pokemon were unhealthy enough to be banned from even Ubers in competitive play outside of PokeMMO if that says anything. The Pokemon that are banned to Ubers in here are outclassed by both Mewtwo and Rayquaza that matches would come down to who had the better legend. I've linked a side by side comparison of the Pokemon that are Ubers here with Rayquaza and Mewtwo with stats from Gen 6 and Gen 3 to give you an idea.

 

http://veekun.com/dex/gadgets/compare_pokemon?pokemon=Rayquaza&pokemon=Dragonite&pokemon=Salamence&pokemon=Tyranitar&pokemon=Metagross&pokemon=Mewtwo

http://veekun.com/dex/gadgets/compare_pokemon?pokemon=Rayquaza&pokemon=Dragonite&pokemon=Salamence&pokemon=Tyranitar&pokemon=Metagross&pokemon=Mewtwo&version_group=6

 

I'm not going to delve too far into discussions on tiering because that is not my domain of expertise. However, if you think that Metagross warrants a ban to Ubers you should request a discussion on it in the OU discussion request thread.

 

That point aside, having Mewtwo and Rayquaza temporarily actually gives them use. If everyone could have one they would have to be banned from tiered PvP. Not just banned to Ubers, but banned entirely because they outclass literally everything in Ubers. They are not competitive at all. So if you had one, what purpose would it serve you?

Okay, let me see if I can somehow relate your message back to what I said. I was not talking about Mewtwo and Rayquaza. Anyone with any sense at all can see why they are banned. I was talking about the lesser legendaries such as the ones I named in my previous comment. The pseudo-legendaries that we have either tie or beat the BST of any lesser legendary that might be implemented. The fact that these Pokemon are so commonly used despite being rare to catch shows that your point about the rarity of legendary Pokemon is moot. 

 

That Master Ball itself is a gift given out during the storyline. Mewtwo and Rayquaza are optional captures after you complete the storyline.

 

Since this is an MMO, everything has to be about how it will impact the in game economy. Things cannot just be added willy nilly without consequences. If everyone were to have a legendary Pokemon, they would be neither rare nor legendary and the desire for anyone to go capture one would go down. This is completely different from the Master Ball which, while bound to your character, has a very minimal impact on the economy. The Master Ball is a one time use against any Pokemon, except legendaries, and you have to confirm that you want to use it.

The bold section is what I am referring to. If everyone has a legendary, they are still legendary. As for being rare, Beldum is also rare, yet Metagross is the most common Pokemon in OU. Just the fact that a legendary Pokemon is in fact a legendary is reason enough for most people to catch one. Unless the legendary Pokemon had a spawn rate of something outrageous like 0.2% and were able to breed, people would always want to catch them. I mean really, what in the world makes you think that something as desired as a legendary Pokemon (which cannot breed and must be caught) would ever cease to be sought-after? That's just ridiculous.

[XelaKebert]

The bold section is what I am referring to. If everyone has a legendary, they are still legendary. As for being rare, Beldum is also rare, yet Metagross is the most common Pokemon in OU. Just the fact that a legendary Pokemon is in fact a legendary is reason enough for most people to catch one. Unless the legendary Pokemon had a spawn rate of something outrageous like 0.2% and were able to breed, people would always want to catch them. I mean really, what in the world makes you think that something as desired as a legendary Pokemon (which cannot breed and must be caught) would ever cease to be sought-after? That's just ridiculous.

Well, first off, Beldum is renewable while legends are not. The desire for them would go down because players would make infinite alts until they captured a godly Mewtwo, for example.

 

If you were able to just pick one up through the storyline then they would be neither rare, nor legendary. You can't claim something is legendary in an MMO and then let everyone have one. Even if they were to spawn at 0.2%, what purpose would it serve? They would still be banned from PvP, Battle Frontier, and Trainer Tower.

[KeroseneZanchu]

would make infinite alts until they captured a godly Mewtwo, for example.

Why should that matter to you? Godly Mewtwo is just as good as a Shitty Mewtwo because we've already established that these would be banned from competitive play anyway (Plus the Battle Frontier/Trainer Tower/etc.). Is the VS Seeker really that important? Because seeing as how you can't even enter Cerulean Cave until you beat all of Kanto PLUS almost all of the Sevii Islands, there's not much more to do than a few more trainers and the VS Seeker.

So yeah, 6x31 Mewtwo would be super broken, but there's nobody to feel the pain of it except the idiot who cleared the storyline enough times to get it because s/he just realized that they wasted their time utterly and completely.

 

 

If you were able to just pick one up through the storyline then they would be neither rare, nor legendary. You can't claim something is legendary in an MMO and then let everyone have one.

I actually agree with this statement, but I'm pretty sure you're overlooking the simple fact of who the hell said you had to get it through the canonical storyline in the first place? You've already removed the storyline versions of the legendaries. It wouldn't even be given to us anyway seeing as how (correct me if I'm wrong) you just said a few posts ago that you couldn't use the Masterball on a legendary anyway. Sure, people have caught Mewtwo and Rayquaza pretty easily here without it, but seeing as how all of the RNG stuff on here has been tampered with to the point where there's almost nothing with the same chances as the real games, I wouldn't put it past you guys to make it easier to catch them because they're so hard to find in the first place and you can't keep them for more than 10 minutes at a time. My point is, if you make them hard enough to get, then you wouldn't be running into half the problems you're bringing up. The more the challenge, the more diversity you have with people. There's the people who are so into the competitive they won't care about legendaries as they'd be impossible to use, and won't go up to the effort of getting one. There's the people who will do it for the challenge. There's the people who will do it because they want the legendary besides its near uselessness.

 

 

What purpose would it serve? They would still be banned from PvP, Battle Frontier, and Trainer Tower.

Sorry, but once again, why the hell does that matter? If the majority of your players want the ability to keep legendaries, even with the consequences of not being able to use them in PvP, E4, Battle Frontier, Trainer Tower, etc. We have already showed you time and time again that there's no reason that this would broken. They would be unable to battle anything but wild pokemon and standard NPCs. They would be unable to be bred. Unable to be traded. They would basically be Gift pokemon that can't be used against other players or major battle facilities, yet you don't mind us receiving Charmanders out the ass. Just because you, Xela, can't find a purpose for that, doesn't mean there isn't one. Many people want to have them as trophies for whatever reason. As a way to show it off to their friends. Maybe they're doing a living pokedex. Maybe they want their Mewtwo/Rayquaza to follow them as their partner. The demand is large, the ability is there, few to no consequences that haven't been countered already, but it will never happen because you don't think there's a purpose?

[Orlandu]

If everyone could have one they would have to be banned from tiered PvP. Not just banned to Ubers, but banned entirely because they outclass literally everything in Ubers.

That's not true, I really doubt the tier council would make an "anything goes" tier here.

 

Before Mega Rayquaza happened, Ubers was not considered a "real tier" by most people since it was basically a OU ban list with little to no rules.

Ubers is the same thing in this game, no one cares about it and theres almost no tournaments for it at all because there's only 8 Pokémon, so why would it matter if the main legendaries outclassed the 8 Pokémon of the tier.

 

Plus Legendaries would change OU so much to the point these Pokémon could go back to OU.

[XelaKebert]

That's not true, I really doubt the tier council would make an "anything goes" tier here.

Before Mega Rayquaza happened, Ubers was not considered a "real tier" by most people since it was basically a OU ban list with little to no rules.
Ubers is the same thing in this game, no one cares about it and theres almost no tournaments for it at all because there's only 8 Pokémon, so why would it matter if the main legendaries outclassed the 8 Pokémon of the tier.

Plus Legendaries would change OU so much to the point these Pokémon could go back to OU.

Actually having these permanent would not change the reasons the Pokemon in Ubers were banned. They were banned because they were unhealthy for the tier. These two Pokemon outclass those Ubers enough to be banned from even Ubers outside of PokeMMO. So no they would have zero effect on the metagame because nothing would change in Ubers. The Pokemon in Ubers were banned because they were unhealthy in OU.

[Gunthug]

Actually having these permanent would not change the reasons the Pokemon in Ubers were banned. They were banned because they were unhealthy for the tier. These two Pokemon outclass those Ubers enough to be banned from even Ubers outside of PokeMMO. So no they would have zero effect on the metagame because nothing would change in Ubers. The Pokemon in Ubers were banned because they were unhealthy in OU.

I think there's just a misunderstanding here - whenever people reference the "legendaries" coming in they're talking about zapdos, celebi, jirachi, raikou, entei, suicune, etc - not just mewtwo and rayquaza. The introduction of the lesser legendaries like the first ones I mentioned would undoubtedly change the OU metagame so much that pokemon like tyranitar, dragonite, salamence, etc would probably come back from ubers (at lesat, temporarily until the council could sort it all out)

 

While I personally don't have any issue with having easier access to these "essential" legendaries (essential because they are great for the metagame), I understand that the majority of this game is non-competitive players who DO value the legendary status of these pokemon and would like to see some effort put into their implementation

[Inarin]

Maybe they're doing a living pokedex.

 

I'm attempting to do one of these. It's vexing not having Legendaries or Johto starters to finish it.

I value the legendaries, but not in a competitive sense. It's like a collection type of hobby to me.

I know there are others who think differently and want them solely to use them in competitive.

 

Perminant seems to be an issue because at least two that have been named repeatedly are uncomeptitive. They'd simply become "high BST Pokemon everyone has". Let's face it, all "rares" are anyway, not much new there but that's not the point. I think most Legendary Pokemon shouldn't be allowed in PvP. I agree with the issue of everyone having these living legends fighting everywhere for everyone. It seems pointless, except for changing the meta up. They'd be valued in their tiers so much I think a lot of viable Pokemon currently would drop considerably due to being outclassed.

 

Temporary also seems to be an issue, due to it being basically pointless, as it's a minigame that basically costs you time and money because, let's face it, you aren't catching it in those freebee Pokeballs from Oak after going through all this adventure, and what you're getting: a Pokedex entry and enough time to have a chat with Mewtwo/Rayquaza. Yeah, it could be considered fun for those with a lot of spare time and care about the 'Dex entry. Other than that, I don't see people bothering with them much. Temporary isn't ideal, but neither is Perminant, and that's the card we're handed. We just have to cope with how it is, until a better solution happens.

 

Just my thoughts.

[Orlandu]

 I think most Legendary Pokemon shouldn't be allowed in PvP.

Can you explain why the trios/jirachi/celebi shouldn't be allowed in PvP?

They'd be valued in their tiers so much I think a lot of viable Pokemon currently would drop considerably due to being outclassed.

And what's the problem with that? When new Pokémon gets introduced, the viability of certain Pokémon changes, this happened when Hoenn was introduced and the only difference is it would change more this time.

"Weak" legendaries like Moltres and Articuno could possibly be UU, so a few outclassed Pokémon in OU could come down to balance things.

 

[Inarin]

Can you explain why the trios/jirachi/celebi shouldn't be allowed in PvP?

And what's the problem with that? When new Pokémon gets introduced, the viability of certain Pokémon changes, this happened when Hoenn was introduced and the only difference is it would change more this time.

"Weak" legendaries like Moltres and Articuno could possibly be UU, so a few outclassed Pokémon in OU could come down to balance things.

 

I did mention they were "just my thoughts". As I said, I'm more of a collector going for a Living Pokedex at the moment, and only recently getting into competitive.

Also, I specifically said "most" shouldn't. For the exact reasoning I gave in my post a little earlier: "They'd simply become high BST Pokemon everyone has."

 

I don't have much of a grasp on exactly how the ones you mentioned would affect the metagame. It's all conjecture. I fear it could become much worse. Yes, some Pokemon could be brought down from higher tiers. I would actually like to see the meta change up and thrive. I just don't think Legendaries are that catalyst just yet. It's not perfect and there will always be variants, even when Legendaries arrive, but the decline of variants would make, in my opinion, a lot more mirror matchups, which I find rather unappealing.

 

Again, in my opinion if everyone had one, it's not a Legendary. It's just a "rare" Pokemon with a high BST total.

Of course, Darkshade already said:

 

We do have plans to add permanent legendaries via dungeons in the future.

Hopefully you'll survive until then.

 

So they will become permanent one day, and the metagame will have to hold on until then, but I still believe Legendaries should remain that way, and not just something everyone has. It's quite clearly just an opinion, and feel free to dismiss it.