5v5 Team Tournament

[DoubleJ]

It's been mulled over for quite a while and I was hoping to build some steam behind this train. I think it would make a lot of sense for the team tournament to transition to a 5v5 Team Tournament, featuring OUx2 (primary tier), UU, NU, and Doubles. This would help enhance diversity and push for more competition at these events. It might also spur teams into helping more members transition into competitive play so that they can have a strong group of five. 

 

Post what you think below and let's see if we can push this through for January. 

[dustybunny]

It sounds fun, and I would like it except it would like add another 2 hours to TT's

[DrCraig]

I like the idea, but I feel like staff will oppose it for the sheer fact that that's a lot of people. I feel like we may lose some teams, despite it being a significantly 2 more players. You can't rotate much in a small scale team.

edit2: 5v5 does embrace the idea of a TEAM tournament too

 

I like the formatting though. I wish Ubers could be a standard tier to jam in there, but it's such an ugly gimmick.

And everybody who is about to post metronome shit for the 5th match shut up

 

edit:

It sounds fun, and I would like it except it would like add another 2 hours to TT's

nah, theoretically a 3v3 should last the same amount of time as a 5v5. A 5v5 does have more of a chance to have matches last slightly longer, but nothing adding up to 2 hours. :)

Edited January 5, 2016 by DrCraig

[DoubleJ]

It sounds fun, and I would like it except it would like add another 2 hours to TT's

 

Well honestly, it shouldn't. If all matches start at the same time and on average last roughly the same amount of time, there really shouldn't be any increase in time for the tournament overall. Registration is done by team rather than by individual member as well. The only thing that I can think of that might increase the time is if staff referee and monitor each match-up, meaning they would run fewer matches at a time. Although, I don't think they do this anyhoos (one ref for each team v team) and thus there shouldn't be a problem with that either. 

 

 

EDIT: @craig, do teams necessarily have to swap players in and out though? I think that's a luxury larger teams have, but in the grand scheme of things players typically play the tiers they are the best at in the TT. Have players focus on one tier rather than being a substitute for possibly all three. 

Edited January 5, 2016 by DoubleJ

[DrCraig]

EDIT: @craig, do teams necessarily have to swap players in and out though? I think that's a luxury larger teams have, but in the grand scheme of things players typically play the tiers they are the best at in the TT. Have players focus on one tier rather than being a substitute for possibly all three. 

Yea, 5v5 does represent a team better anyway

[Tyrone]

I have personally asked 17 teams (All the participants of last TT and Aw) if they'd be up for a potential 5v5 Team Tournament in 2016.

Out of those 17 teams, 12 teams have said yes. Some have said "Don't know" and some "No" (I believe this was 3-2).

 

There are a few issues with 5v5.

 

a) The duration of the tournament will increase

- It will definitely take longer than 3v3, how much longer depends on whether it's possible to get 8 Refs instead of 4.

- Currently: One ref can keep track of two matches at once ( 6 battles ). With 5v5 this is not possible.

 

b.) Smaller teams will be disadvantaged

- There are teams who currently participate who do not have an abundance of competitive players.

- It would benefit largers teams more, who are already doing really well during TT (Note LYLE and Aw having won most of them in 2015).

 

c) Oranisation problems

- 5v5, 16 teams = 80! players.

- Would be the largest tournament in history of PokeMMO, really difficult to manage in a relatively small building.

- Optimal date and time for both players and refs can be hard to accomplish.

 

I would personally not make 5v5 the new standard tournament, but I'm definitely looking for interest in making a special Team Tournament during 2016.

[DoubleJ]

I have personally asked 17 teams (All the participants of last TT and Aw) if they'd be up for a potential 5v5 Team Tournament in 2016.

Out of those 17 teams, 12 teams have said yes. Some have said "Don't know" and some "No" (I believe this was 3-2).

 

There are a few issues with 5v5.

 

a) The duration of the tournament will increase

- It will definitely take longer than 3v3, how much longer depends on whether it's possible to get 8 Refs instead of 4.

- Currently: One ref can keep track of two matches at once ( 6 battles ). With 5v5 this is not possible.

 

b.) Smaller teams will be disadvantaged

- There are teams who currently participate who do not have an abundance of competitive players.

- It would benefit largers teams more, who are already doing really well during TT (Note LYLE and Aw having won most of them in 2015).

 

c) Oranisation problems

- 5v5, 16 teams = 80! players.

- Would be the largest tournament in history of PokeMMO, really difficult to manage in a relatively small building.

- Optimal date and time for both players and refs can be hard to accomplish.

 

I would personally not make 5v5 the new standard tournament, but I'm definitely looking for interest in making a special Team Tournament during 2016.

 

I think it should at least be tested. Maybe having a special bi-annual, or quarterly, tt that uses this format. I can see what you mean about larger teams having an advantage in TT, but I don't think it's that hard for teams to have 5 comp players. The level of skill for each of those players is what really makes the difference amongst the elite and the casual.  

[DrCraig]

I think it should at least be tested. Maybe having a special bi-annual, or quarterly, tt that uses this format. I can see what you mean about larger teams having an advantage in TT, but I don't think it's that hard for teams to have 5 comp players. The level of skill for each of those players is what really makes the difference amongst the elite and the casual.  

Seasonal!

 

January

February

March - Spring Seasonal Team Tournament

April

May

June - Summer Seasonal Team Tournament

July

August

September - Autumn Seasonal Team Tournament

October

November

December - Winter Seasonal Team Tournament

 

Seasonal prize suggestions:

• 1,000,000 yen each
• Signatures [ Name //// 2015 Summer TT Champion]

[Arimanius]

I think it should at least be tested. Maybe having a special bi-annual, or quarterly, tt that uses this format. I can see what you mean about larger teams having an advantage in TT, but I don't think it's that hard for teams to have 5 comp players. The level of skill for each of those players is what really makes the difference amongst the elite and the casual.  

Yeah if they're really a TEAM even if they have a short number of members they can work out in specializing their players to a tier, that's what I used to do in my old team where we didn't have so many comp players. I do like this idea a lot and yeah even if it's not the standard, one like this every 4 month sounds good. The thing is with the referees and well anytime we don't have a match like pipe against eloy

[Rigamorty]

 

 

• 1,000,000 yen each

 

this is the only part that seems unreasonable. not only is it double what the normal tt prize is per player, but it's also for an additional 2 players. keeping it at 500k still seems good enough since its still a bigger prize pool all together by a million.

 

adding something like a sig or special vanity would be nice though to give more of a glory reward

[fredrichnietze]

i think this is a good idea. because it was mine back when nu came out and they removed doubles format in 2014? 2013? anyways it's great idea and there is no reason not to do it. the extra time argument isnt a thing since they do all matches at the same time. and staff dont even watch all the matches anymore since tourney mode is a thing.

 

lets do it.

[Robofiend]

This is a dope idea, I think it'd encourage players to make more teams and compete in the TT. As is, it's impossible to have a 3 person team and even with 8 people who might end up playing in the tournament, lots of players on big teams never really participate. 5 player limits might convince people to form smaller teams or specialize in different tiers. 

 

I do have one question for staff: why are so many refs necessary with all of the auto-battle features we have? We definitely need a few people running the show, announcing matches, etc. but with the battle timer and tournament mode, it doesn't seem like they're make-or-break for tournaments these days. Most tournaments I spectate, the refs just reiterate the "X has defeated Y in a duel" console output and then shout a couple times for people to start their matches. It's been a while since I've even seen an instance where a ref call would need to happen. Occasionally banned moves or weird bugs will throw things off, but it does seem like refs could take a more administrative role and let the battles just happen (or DQ people if they take forever to team build).

 

At any rate, once we get auto tournament this should definitely happen, no real downsides as far as I see. Tournaments wouldn't take longer because Doubles, NU and are harder to stall out than UU or OU, both of which have been moving a little faster lately.

 

Speaking of the auto-tournament feature.. LF more info on whether that's actually going to happen

[Toast]

Why dont we circulate the 5th tier? Iirc there are 4 rounds in the tourney, each round the 5th match could be either ou, uu, nu, doubles. Then the next round whatever was played before it can't be played again, until theres 1 tier left (which would be for finals). Also randomizing it instead of going in an order each time. Imo itll prove a team's worth more by being prepared for whatever's being thrown at them - itll help the team prepare more (hopefully) beforehand and could be *maybe* more fair than a set OU x2? That is if it happens ofc.

[DoubleJ]

Why dont we circulate the 5th tier? Iirc there are 4 rounds in the tourney, each round the 5th match could be either ou, uu, nu, doubles. Then the next round whatever was played before it can't be played again, until theres 1 tier left (which would be for finals). Also randomizing it instead of going in an order each time. Imo itll prove a team's worth more by being prepared for whatever's being thrown at them - itll help the team prepare more (hopefully) beforehand and could be *maybe* more fair than a set OU x2? That is if it happens ofc.

 

That would be nice, but that would also put a lot more strain on the referees, the teams participating, and it would kinda set back the whole idea of stability that this format is trying to establish. While I know both of our teams have more UU or NU players than OU, it just doesn't make much sense to have such variability in a massive scale tournament, imo. 

[Robofiend]

Why dont we circulate the 5th tier? Iirc there are 4 rounds in the tourney, each round the 5th match could be either ou, uu, nu, doubles. Then the next round whatever was played before it can't be played again, until theres 1 tier left (which would be for finals). Also randomizing it instead of going in an order each time. Imo itll prove a team's worth more by being prepared for whatever's being thrown at them - itll help the team prepare more (hopefully) beforehand and could be *maybe* more fair than a set OU x2? That is if it happens ofc.

 

PU pls

[DrCraig]

PU pls

PokeMMO VGC

[Robofiend]

or UU doubles

[DoubleJ]

or UU doubles

 

Ubers before that nonsense. Return of the CB Gods. 

[Robofiend]

Actually wouldn't argue with Ubers so much

[DoubleJ]

Actually wouldn't argue with Ubers so much

 

Would definitely make things interesting. I would support it. 

[DrCraig]

I like the idea of promoting Ubers but putting it alongside other stable tiers seems silly. Doubles has diplomatic immunity though so shut up.

[CaptainGrey]

It will clearly advantage the biggest team and definitively kill the "little" team who struggle to get 3 competitive players to get a chance to win it. I am 100% against this idea ...

[DoubleJ]

It will clearly advantage the biggest team and definitively kill the "little" team who struggle to get 3 competitive players to get a chance to win it. I am 100% against this idea ...

 

I can see how it would benefit established teams early on because they likely have a player-base that has extensive knowledge of all the tiers, but despite this though, I can't see how it benefits "bigger" teams. They can't play all of their players anymore than a team with 6-8 competitive players could. It would also promote smaller teams to develop other players within their team, or recruit new players, in order to compete at this level. This would in turn just help our competitive community grow in my opinion. 

[fredrichnietze]

It will clearly advantage the biggest team and definitively kill the "little" team who struggle to get 3 competitive players to get a chance to win it. I am 100% against this idea ...

maybe the little teams will team up and become one bigger team that can better compete? more larger teams means more people playing instead of many small teams competing for a spot on the 16 man bracket. poau is as large as it is now by eating up cope and gwop and several other smaller teams over time. never would have won the TT if it stayed the small team it was when it started.

 

TL;DR it wont make small teams unable to play, they will just have to become bigger teams which is a good thing(imo).

[CaptainGrey]

Lol it sounds to be too easy for you. Honestly this is a bad idea. New players please. It takes months to form and train new players (And i know that), when fews stay in game only 2-3 months or the others join "Bigger team" to personally progress and enforce them (ye, not all the players are loyals). Se how LYLE, Aw, AURA are even strong in 3v3, they have tons of competitive players, that is not the case for some of the others teams (In case yes I am defending my team but it is the truth), 3v3 clearly let a chance to any team to win (due to their 3 best players, chance, hax, all can happen on 1 match). 5v5 bad idea, it will force some little team to merge or clearly be forfeit for team tourn who is one of the most popular tournament in tis game.

[DoubleJ]

Lol it sounds to be too easy for you. Honestly this is a bad idea. New players please. It takes months to form and train new players (And i know that), when fews stay in game only 2-3 months or the others join "Bigger team" to personally progress and enforce them (ye, not all the players are loyals). Se how LYLE, Aw, AURA are even strong in 3v3, they have tons of competitive players, that is not the case for some of the others teams (In case yes I am defending my team but it is the truth), 3v3 clearly let a chance to any team to win (due to their 3 best players, chance, hax, all can happen on 1 match). 5v5 bad idea, it will force some little team to merge or clearly be forfeit for team tourn who is one of the most popular tournament in tis game.

 

Tyrone already confirmed that he doesn't want this as the standard monthly style, but I think it wouldn't be bad to experiment having even just one 5v5 Official TT. Every team has OU, UU, and NU players, the only difficult part will be finding a Doubles player. I think it could be successful.