Jump to content

[OU Discussion] Arena Trap/Dugtrio (Dugtrio Banned to Ubers)


Recommended Posts

The time has come. 

 

EDIT: We'll be talking mostly about Dugtrio but we're also concerned whether other AT pokes should be banned as well, since they can perform a similar duty.

 

Dugtrio is one of everyone's favorite things to hate and it's probably worth it to have another community discussion about it.

 

Dugtrio has become a lot more common and a lot more useful since Gengar was banned, both as a special wall trapper and as a catchall way of removing physical attackers that are troubling for stall, like Ursaring, Heracross, weakened Metagross and lesser-used pokemon like Blaziken or Medicham. 

 

In past discussions, Dugtrio has always been passed off as not that viable due to specially bulky Arcanine being able to stop it with Espeed, Gengar getting a free pass on it once it's in play, and the use of walls like Venusaur or who don't fear the Sub-Reversal set as much as Chansey and Porygon2 do. But with the decline in usage amongst the former pokemon and the heightened viability of Weezing/P2 for stopping pokemon like Gyarados, who punishes Dugtrio users, it seems like it might be time to ban the Dugtrio again for similar reasons that we banned 

it the first time - it centralizes the metagame into a few key team builds (Dugtrio Stall, Special spam + trio, etc.), it's uncompetitive as hell, and it 

generally supports its team too well to allow players the freedom to develop new sets.

 

Pros:

- Checks special walls, stall amazingly

- Rewards risky play, punishes formulism

- Reliance on Liechi berry and susceptibility to entry hazards limit its opportunities in battle.

 

Cons:

- Uncompetitive, lacks counters (although teams can be engineered to be less weak to it)

- Could be seen as centralizing

- Lots of utility in current Metagame, as it can trap+checkm8 Metagross, Heracross, Ursaring and a host of other Phys attackers pretty easily.

 

Edited by Robofiend
Link to comment

My two cents: Dugtrio alone has the ability to support a wall/stall-team in a number of ways, most notably by acting as a reliable revenge killer of any number of common physical sweepers (Ursaring, Heracross, Metagross, Blaziken, Pikachu, etc.). It can also check mate any number of slower pokemon with around 40% health when carrying CB. Dugtrio is even so easy to use that you can "fix" your HP to take the correct amount of damage when spikes are on the field to still get a perfect substitute for max-power Reversal. Also, as Robofiend stated there are just too few pokemon to take advantage of Dugtrio when it comes into play and makes a kill. Our primary sweeper to do this is Gyarados and it's been generally walled to all hell by Weezing, Gardevoir, and P2. Interestingly enough Dugtrio removes 2 of those 3 threats and thus we've come full circle in this game of centralization. 

 

Dugtrio is cancer in our current meta for multiple reasons. It promotes stall play and has its way with our current meta. Ban it and let's see the return of mixed attackers and wall breakers to help "level the playing field" within the tier. 

Link to comment

I appreciate this thread a lot, thanks.

 

The problem with Dugtrio is my opinion, a lot of time there is no counter play to it. There are occasions when you've just got to play risky with it to get rewarded, but then mostly when revenge killing you literally have no counter play.

 

It's uncompetitive. If you've been trapped by Dug, you know that feeling that it's just complete scum.

Edited by KaynineXL
Link to comment

I appreciate this thread a lot, thanks.

 

The problem with Dugtrio is my opinion, a lot of time there is no counter play to it. There are occasions when you've just got to play risky with it to get rewarded, but then mostly when revenge killing you literally have no counter play.

 

It's uncompetitive. If you've been trapped by Dug, you know that feeling that it's just complete scum.

 

Or you can go to Aerodactyl for Pursuit and put yourself in a world of hurt to any variety of set-up pokemon or CB user. 

 

 

EDIT: But hey, Dugtrio will be dead =)

Edited by DoubleJ
Link to comment

#UnbantheUbers

 

bring back salamence, gengar, dragonite and dugtrio wont be an issue

 

 

but seriously I have played 1 OU tournament since coming back and I can tell Dugtrio is cancer and this is genuinely the first ban I actually support. Unless staff are surprising everyone with choice scarfs for the next patch I dont see a reason as to how Dug can stay an OU

Link to comment

Alright, here's my thoughts about Dugtrio here as well.

 

There are different levels of uncompetitiveness. There's Wobbuffet tier of uncompetitiveness, a Pokemon which with great amount of HP can trap you any second of the match and then there's Dugtrio - a Pokemon which can pretty much uncompetitively trap you only to revenge kill. In addition, not nearly always Dugtrio can even revenge kill a Pokemon reliably and there are only limited amount of Pokemon Dugtrio really can trap. Not all uncompetitive things are banworthy by default and it's basically finding the fine line where uncompetitiveness is allowed and Dugtrio might most definitely sit on the borderline of that.

 

It's notable that Dugtrio kinda "balances out" the Magneton trap game. If Magneton is going to trap Skarmory/Forretress, it needs to be ready to get trapped by Dugtrio as well and I would argue the viability of Magneton would skyrocket and the viability of Skarmory and Forretress would plummet if Dugtrio no longer would be a thing. And perhaps a but unfairly so. One kind of trapping is allowed but other isn't. This kind of an effect looks like of a healthy one thing to me, if anything. It's just mainly about "do we like 'em traps?". Oh yeah, let's remember Dugtrio ALSO can be trapped with a bulky Gardevoir.

 

In addition, Dugtrio makes two arguably the best Pokemon in the metagame run less powerful movesets. Metagross now on seems to be very commonly be Agility set instead of highly superior Choice Bander but first of which doesn't get Dugtrio trapped. In addition, Dugtrio keeps Chansey on its toes. The metaeffect Dugtrio does to the healthiness side of the OU metagame is in fact more like of good than bad in my eyes. So I wouldn't argue it unhealthy based on my observations and theorymon of the tier.

 

I haven't personally felt like defensive teams have been more difficult for me to break if they consist a Dugtrio. But I see why it could do it so. You basically can't kill Pokemon with Heracross and CB Metagross because after you do so, your aforementioned Pokemon are dead by Dugtrap. And then Chansey walls you to death. I could say how Gardevoir fixes that issue by trapping Dugtrio but it's too centralizing, I know and I really must admit in that way Dugtrio is really bs. And that is my biggest concern with Dugtrio being in the OU metagame.

Link to comment

I would agree with the ban. However, I think the discussion should be about Arena trap and not about Dugtrio. Despite being more obscure, Diglett and trapinch can often do the same job.

 

Diglett actually does to the same thing to Heracross and Metagross, you're right about that. But Trapinch is too slow. And I've overall calced Trapinch, it's pretty awful.

Link to comment

Alright, here's my thoughts about Dugtrio here as well.

 

There are different levels of uncompetitiveness. There's Wobbuffet tier of uncompetitiveness, a Pokemon which with great amount of HP can trap you any second of the match and then there's Dugtrio - a Pokemon which can pretty much uncompetitively trap you only to revenge kill. In addition, not nearly always Dugtrio can even revenge kill a Pokemon reliably and there are only limited amount of Pokemon Dugtrio really can trap. Not all uncompetitive things are banworthy by default and it's basically finding the fine line where uncompetitiveness is allowed and Dugtrio might most definitely sit on the borderline of that.

 

I was careful not to say "pls ban uncompetitive" in the OP for a reason. Dugtrio's more than just uncompetitive, it's a problem because it's uncompetitive and really really useful for a lot of different team archetypes that block standard teams from being successful. 

 

It's notable that Dugtrio kinda "balances out" the Magneton trap game. If Magneton is going to trap Skarmory/Forretress, it needs to be ready to get trapped by Dugtrio as well and I would argue the viability of Magneton would skyrocket and the viability of Skarmory and Forretress would plummet if Dugtrio no longer would be a thing. And perhaps a but unfairly so. One kind of trapping is allowed but other isn't. This kind of an effect looks like of a healthy one thing to me, if anything. It's just mainly about "do we like 'em traps?". Oh yeah, let's remember Dugtrio ALSO can be trapped with a bulky Gardevoir.

 

I disagree, the whole point of Dugtrio is that it can trap things that otherwise would be checked by other pokemon. For instance, Swampert, Flygon, Marowak, HP Fire P2 and Jolteon (ignoring the problems with HP) can come in on Magneton, scout its HP and go on to live relatively happy lives. Chansey can play around it to some degree as well. More than anything, Magneton is just dead weight against really offensive teams that don't rely on Skamory or Forretress. Weezing, Cloyster, Starmie and Metagross can perform Skamory/Forretress' duties (being bulky and steel typed, blocking Heracross, etc.) and since the tier's two steel typed walls aren't a total necessity when building a team, there's no guarantee that they'll even be useful.

 

Additionally, the rise of mixed sweepers could negate the need for trappers, to some degree. 

 

In addition, Dugtrio makes two arguably the best Pokemon in the metagame run less powerful movesets. Metagross now on seems to be very commonly be Agility set instead of highly superior Choice Bander but first of which doesn't get Dugtrio trapped. In addition, Dugtrio keeps Chansey on its toes. The metaeffect Dugtrio does to the healthiness side of the OU metagame is in fact more like of good than bad in my eyes. So I wouldn't argue it unhealthy based on my observations and theorymon of the tier.

 

Dugtrio doesn't really keep Chansey on its toes, it just makes for a 50/50 any time Chansey comes into play. Skilled players know how to predict Chansey's entry into play and will likely continue to do so. I think a lot of people find these sort of situations (e.g. "either I sack Flygon to Starmie here or go Chansey and risk the Dugtrap") pretty unfulfilling in competitive play 

 

I haven't personally felt like defensive teams have been more difficult for me to break if they consist a Dugtrio. But I see why it could do it so. You basically can't kill Pokemon with Heracross and CB Metagross because after you do so, your aforementioned Pokemon are dead by Dugtrap. And then Chansey walls you to death. I could say how Gardevoir fixes that issue by trapping Dugtrio but it's too centralizing, I know and I really must admit in that way Dugtrio is really bs. And that is my biggest concern with Dugtrio being in the OU metagame.

 

Basically this.

 

Overall good post, I just think Dugtrio is more unhealthy than beneficial for the game right now.

 

In particular, I'm not a fan of keeping Dugtrio around to check Magneton when it can be played around to some degree and struggles more against offense than defensive teams. Magneton is shockingly common right now and I think that without Dugtrio the metagame would adapt to things like Metagross and Magneton by gaining new threats like CB Swampert or Marowak, both of whom have legitimate uses as stallbreakers. I have always had trouble seeing Magneton as de facto problematic, mainly because of its lack of value outside of taking out Steel type walls.

 

I would agree with the ban. However, I think the discussion should be about Arena trap and not about Dugtrio. Despite being more obscure, Diglett and trapinch can often do the same job.

 

I'm less on board with this for a couple of reasons: First, these pokemon can't trap Heracross, Metagross, Blaziken, etc. etc. as well as Dugtrio can while also being able to Leichi bomb things. They just don't have the speed, firepower and acceptable HP stat to do all the jobs Dugtrio does.

 

Calcs:

236 Atk Diglett Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 100-120 (64.5 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 80-96 (42.7 - 51.3%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Blaziken Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diglett: 63-75 (74.1 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (kek)
236 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Medicham: 63-75 (46.6 - 55.5%) -- 71.5% chance to 2HKO

 

AT pre-evos are considerably less useful than Dugtrio and imo running them would be equivalent to running Hail Chansey right now - a gimmick that can work well in one set of circumstances but is otherwise pretty useless. 

 

I don't really object to banning Arena Trap, but I think Diglett or Trapinch could be fine in lower tiers as well.

Edited by Robofiend
Link to comment

I agree with both of you, diglett and trapinch are doing way less things. But a problem remains with any arena trap mon, regardless of its stats: Banded thunderpunch. They completely make it unfeasible, and many banders need to rely on thunderpunch to hit vaporeon, slowbro or skarmory. Which means that if your opponent notices that thunderpunch is doing suspicious amounts of damage, he can freely get rid of your bander.

 

As for trapinch, it can do some things the moles can't:

1. Guaranteed knockout of Umbreon and Chansey. I guess charm umbreon or bold umbreon can take it, but it is forced into making predictable plays.

2. Trapinch can toxic stall certain walls better than dugtrio. A good example is Chansey. As trapinch hits 151+ HP, it can easily rest on the seismic tosses, and it can do the same to umbreon's pursuits.

3. Trapinch can still revenge weakened pokemon with low hp. Base 100 attack adamant quick attack is going to dent a lot of things:

27.1% - 32.3% to Blaziken

24.2% - 29.1% to Ursaring

25.8% - 31% to Heracross

34.3% - 40.7% to fast Espeon

21.6% - 25.7% to 252 hp starmie

 

The cancer is Arena Trap, it just happens that dugtrio is the most versatile user. But if it gets banned, the others can do the job a lot of the times.

 

EDIT: But for the sake of it, I'd support a ban of just Dugtrio for a start. Would make a lot of things better. Then we can see.

 

EDIT2:

 

 

 

- Rewards risky play, punishes formulism

 

That moment when formulism (dugtrio) punishes formulism.

Edited by OldKeith
Link to comment

Robo your calcs have 236 Atk and just put Choice Band there. That's the purpose of Diglett anyways, to kill Meta and Heracross.

 

Anyways, one things I definitely need to address. Just because Dugtrio traps the wallbreakers and makes Chansey wall the shit out of everything, you cannot draw a straight conclusion that Dugtrio is the one in fault. I think we should ask "would Umbreon, Clefable etc." wall me if I lost my offensive Pokemon to Dugtrap? And if the answer is yes, Dugtrio is the banworthy one. If the answer is no we should make a thread of Chansey AND Dugtrio and figure out which one is the problem because like Robo said in Chansey thread - both really can't exist at once.

Link to comment

I think we all know what dugtrio can and can't trap by now.

I carry garde over chansey just because of dugtrio (even though chansey can be adapted to beat dugtrio) and i watch myself from having more than 1 poke that dugtrio could possibly trap but even then i sometimes can't avoid a revenge kill.

As robo said it was a whole different story with gengar around, but we came to the point where that thing is just too relevant.

You can afford to have that around when the usage is at borderline nu levels, but as of now it's something you have to teambuild for.

And it's not something you can be prepared for just by using pursuitdactyl or gardevoir, because at that point there's a good chance dugtrio already did it's job.

Having a dugtrioproof team which is at the same time prepared to deal with status, spikes, cbanders and setup sweepers and any kind of team in general while retaining a decent offensive power is pretty difficult to say the least.

When you have to deal with trappers risky plays are something you can't afford, especially in a defensive oriented meta where losing a single wall affects you so much; dugtrio doesn't only affect teambuilding but also the actual battles in a negative way (less variety when it comes to make decisions).

When gengar's ban was still fresh and the usage was tolerable one could still overlook it's uncompetitiveness, but i think we came to the point where it needs to be stopped.

Stall is already viable enough, trapping is pretty awful in general and with it's current usage we don't have any excuse left to keep it around.

Plz ban

Link to comment

>away for 5 days due to postban

>3 discussion threads appear

 

Not a coincidence I think.

 

I had a prepared post in my .txt so I'll just allow myself to copy paste.

 

Finally this thing is getting discussed. The friend and enemy alike for every kind of team. THE revenge killer of the tier. Hopefully I can contribute enough to help with getting rid of it.

 

1. The centralization

 

Metagame with Dugtrio is weird, least to say. CB Metagross are almost never seen anymore, same for CB Blaziken. Any CB locked thunderpunch is as good as death with this thing around. It limits the teambuilding a lot, preventing pokes that naturally would hold CB from doing this. Teams are specifically built to avoid being trapped by that. For a long time I thought it's the necessary evil due to it's ability of removing the OP sdef wall (chansey) but then the CB set became much more popular and started to take out crucial sweepers and wallbreakers with it's STAB EQ and coverage moves (ex. Aerial Ace for Heracross) and allow stall teams to triumph.

 

2. The speed

 

Dugtrio is in an awesome speed tier, allowing it to outspeed whole OU except Aero and Jolt (and speed ties with a never-seen Zam). This makes it's job easier than ever- it's usually bulky enough to tank HP ice from Jolt or ESpeed from Arcanine and kill either of them with a STAB CB EQ. Literally every non-flying or levitate poke takes chunks from STAB EQ/ Rock Slide/ Aerial Ace or DEdge (cool tool for Flygons) or simply gets killed.

 

3. Tier without Dugtrio

 

We will finally be able to use pokes like Blaziken, CB Metagross, Rhydon, offensive Arcanine, Heracross much more, but at the cost of losing one of the best ways to dispose of tier's most cancerous sdef wall. A lot of sets will finally see the daylight. Magneton will surely become a bit more viable without Dug coming out to kill it. I'm almost 100% sure that our already physically-oriented OU will become even more physically oriented, unless Chansey also leaves it.

 

4. Diglett...?

[spoiler]ca7e34fdd6735d0c8cd9478569ffef0e.png[/spoiler]

 

I am pretty sure Diglett will replace Dugtrio in many teams to help taking out special walls. It will not have an impact like Dug has, but it will still do Dugtrio's main job in OU- taking out sdef walls. I'm sure it will be heavily discussed after Dugtrio will leave the tier, unless, Chansey does the same.

 

All in all, I'm all up in favour to get rid of this thing under support characteristics.

Link to comment

I think what is really ban-worthy about Dugtrio is his ability "Arena Trap". His base attack is rather sub-par (though a stab EQ hits like a truck), and he is also an excellent Reversal user. I'm not taking into account his damage or speed when I talk about banning him, but his stupid ability that most of the time means a sure kill.

Link to comment

As a dugtrio user (hold your hate mail for just a moment), I have a very good idea of what it is capable of and what it's stopped by. Pretty much anything that resists or is immune to ground stops dugtrio. Gyarados, weezing, claydol, heracross (if dugtrio has rock slide), any bulky grass pokemon (again, if rock slide), slowbro, aerodactyl (with pursuit), flygon (with quick attack), a few more that i can't remember, now and any priority user stop dugtrio. Because the standard dugtrio doesn't run rock slide, any flying pokemon at all
stops him quite easily.

While he may not have any solid counters (apart from pursuit aero) that can trap and kill him, dugtrio is checked by many, many things. Setting any spikes makes dugtrio lose any element of surprise that he needs to take out things like umbreon or porygon2 because you have to throw him in at least twice to get the right HP amount for max power reversal. 

If dragon dance were banned, we could allow allow dragonite and (maybe) salamence back into OU which would add a couple more checks to dugtrio, but that's a discussion for another time.

Overall, I would say Dugtrio isn't worthy of being banned, but that's to be expected of someone that uses him as much as I do.

 

Link to comment

I think what is really ban-worthy about Dugtrio is his ability "Arena Trap". His base attack is rather sub-par (though a stab EQ hits like a truck), and he is also an excellent Reversal user. I'm not taking into account his damage or speed when I talk about banning him, but his stupid ability that most of the time means a sure kill.

For sure, that's the exact reason why it's having a discussion. It's another reason why others are asking for Diglet+Trapinch bans as they share the same uncompetitive ability.

 

As a dugtrio user (hold your hate mail for just a moment), I have a very good idea of what it is capable of and what it's stopped by. Pretty much anything that resists or is immune to ground stops dugtrio. Gyarados, weezing, claydol, heracross (if dugtrio has rock slide), any bulky grass pokemon (again, if rock slide), slowbro, aerodactyl (with pursuit), flygon (with quick attack), a few more that i can't remember, now and any priority user stop dugtrio. Because the standard dugtrio doesn't run rock slide, any flying pokemon at all
stops him quite easily.

While he may not have any solid counters (apart from pursuit aero) that can trap and kill him, dugtrio is checked by many, many things. Setting any spikes makes dugtrio lose any element of surprise that he needs to take out things like umbreon or porygon2 because you have to throw him in at least twice to get the right HP amount for max power reversal. 

If dragon dance were banned, we could allow allow dragonite and (maybe) salamence back into OU which would add a couple more checks to dugtrio, but that's a discussion for another time.

Overall, I would say Dugtrio isn't worthy of being banned, but that's to be expected of someone that uses him as much as I do.

 

The whole argument is pretty bad I think. You say he is stopped by a bunch of stuff, but the fact of the matter is, his Arena Trap ability can't be countered(unless you use multiple hit moves on reversal dug which is not very viable). To be honest, apart from Aero with pursuit, Dug can just swap out, soo yeh, they aren't doing anything really. Not to forget half the stuff you listed do get trapped by dug if they are damaged.

 

Moving on, people that use Dug, a lot of the times they use stall teams which have a spinner so they don't need to worry about spikes too much.

 

I highly doubt dragon dance would ever be banned.

Edited by KaynineXL
Link to comment

As a dugtrio user (hold your hate mail for just a moment), I have a very good idea of what it is capable of and what it's stopped by. Pretty much anything that resists or is immune to ground stops dugtrio. Gyarados, weezing, claydol, heracross (if dugtrio has rock slide), any bulky grass pokemon (again, if rock slide), slowbro, aerodactyl (with pursuit), flygon (with quick attack), a few more that i can't remember, now and any priority user stop dugtrio. Because the standard dugtrio doesn't run rock slide, any flying pokemon at all
stops him quite easily.

While he may not have any solid counters (apart from pursuit aero) that can trap and kill him, dugtrio is checked by many, many things. Setting any spikes makes dugtrio lose any element of surprise that he needs to take out things like umbreon or porygon2 because you have to throw him in at least twice to get the right HP amount for max power reversal. 

If dragon dance were banned, we could allow allow dragonite and (maybe) salamence back into OU which would add a couple more checks to dugtrio, but that's a discussion for another time.

Overall, I would say Dugtrio isn't worthy of being banned, but that's to be expected of someone that uses him as much as I do.

 

 

You're explaining why Dugtrio isn't Ubers offensive characteristics now. Which it obviously is not. It might be the least thing to be Offensive Ubers in the tier.

 

The discussion is regarding whether Dugtrio is Support Uber Characteristics. Because Dugtrio can without any skill trap the main physical offensive threats, it makes the walls (especially Chansey, Umbreon) wall basically the whole tier after the offensive Pokemon have been successfully trapped and fainted.

Link to comment

For sure, that's the exact reason why it's having a discussion. It's another reason why others are asking for Diglet+Trapinch bans as they share the same uncompetitive ability.

 

Yeah, and I was also thinking how the lack of Weezing, Skarmory and Dusclops on  a team (or if Dugtrio is kept alive while the aforementioned tanks die) makes Dugtrio totally unbeatable. I was thinking about sending out a flying type to counter him, but even Aero is no match for him. He is really cancer material for the tier.

 

+1 252 Atk Dugtrio Reversal (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl: 334-394 (110.9 - 130.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Drats.

Link to comment

Yeah, and I was also thinking how the lack of Weezing, Skarmory and Dusclops on  a team (or if Dugtrio is kept alive while the aforementioned tanks die) makes Dugtrio totally unbeatable. I was thinking about sending out a flying type to counter him, but even Aero is no match for him. He is really cancer material for the tier.

 

+1 252 Atk Dugtrio Reversal (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl: 334-394 (110.9 - 130.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Drats.

well dugtrio will never be +1 attack and +1 speed, so it can't really beat aero unless someone runs adamant aero. 

Link to comment

I once saw a Dugtrio beating an Aero in speed in an official tourney, that's why. I think it had a salac berry and it 0hkoed the Aero with reversal.

252+ Atk Dugtrio Reversal (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aerodactyl: 127-150 (81.9 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

I guess its possible assuming the person went for adamant dugtrio.

Link to comment

This bann happy attitude really needs to stop.  Dugtrio really isn't a problem, it checks something else you want banned...

 

Its not unbalanced, its not over powered, its not over used.

 

Stop going nuts with the bans, litterly turning this game into nothing more then a waste of time.  You guys ban half the stuff I breed, its beyond the point of redicuousness now.

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.