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Why grinding for moves ruins the competitive game


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0bcf26e41527fa2ba2da86a388c53b29.png

 

I don't have much more to say. Screen says all.

I have exactly the same feelings Keith. I have problems making comps because of expensive tutor moves, battle tower moves, time-consuming and money-consuming breeding. Creating one comp poke takes me like a week, sometimes even more, because after the catching, gathering items for moves, PP maxing, I have to evtrain and level it. And it takes again time. If I would be up to find a stick or 2 silk scarfs for ONE tutor without which my poke would be ineffective, I'd add like ~2 hours to already days I spent on making one poke.

One.

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I think the "do it once and then you have it" idea would be pretty swag.
The fact that you can't tutor, forget and relearn is the problem.
If we could continuously "buff" one pokemon and freely switch sets, we'd end up just having one of each pokemon, bar natures amd hidden power differences.
There would be an end to the amount of comps you need. You can "get them all". And then well, the grind is justifiable. If it takes you this long or that long to "100% the game".
Though, some might argue this is a bad thing for an mmo, it's the direction I would personally prefer.

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I think the "do it once and then you have it" idea would be pretty swag.
The fact that you can't tutor, forget and relearn is the problem.
If we could continuously "buff" one pokemon and freely switch sets, we'd end up just having one of each pokemon, bar natures amd hidden power differences.
There would be an end to the amount of comps you need. You can "get them all". And then well, the grind is justifiable. If it takes you this long or that long to "100% the game".
Though, some might argue this is a bad thing for an mmo, it's the direction I would personally prefer.

It still wouldn't work, the moves need to be easier accessible, not by grinding two ultra rare items for like 6 hours or fucking the trainers in tower over and over and over to gain BP.

I was searching for 2 thick clubs yesterday for 4 hours on trade chat. Found one for a reasonable price of 30k. To get second one I was supposed to pay 60/ 80 and 90k because only 3 people during those 4 hours responded to me (excluding the seller). This is bullshit.

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Personally, I'm all for having somewhat of a grind, due to an MMO environment, however I think the length of time it takes for ONE single variant of one single Pokémon is absurd. It takes days to get one done. Up to a week for a full team of Six, and for what? One Tournament. After that Tounament? You get counter teamed, which requires a week or more to be able to do anything about it, with needing new Pokémon and variants. Unless you have multiple teams already, in which, you've spent much more than a week getting them. Rinse and repeat, until you have enough Competitive Pokémon to have a counter for counters, and it's practically a full time career just to have a few hours of fun at a Tournament.

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Lemme quote myself

 

The breeding process is way too tedious

Let's break down the steps to making 1 damn pokemon from scratch and then amplify this 6 times for a whole team.

 

>I want a Blastoise. Good thing I have a female squirtle starter. Time to find some water/monster breeders.

>I need to come up with breeders for HP, then HP/DEF, then HP/DEF/SATK and so on

>I mindlessly take 2 hours and get a good 2 boxes or so. Maybe I spent 10k or so on balls no problem.

>Now I must breed my wild catches for breeders

>1+ hour of breeding and over 100k spent on braces. Just to breed breeders. BREEDING BREEDERS.

>now I want to start on my squirtle

>oh no i need everstones, better go spend another hour just so I can get everstone.

>Time to breed everything

>another 1 hour and 75k spent on braces for all the ivs to pass

>oh, did I mention over 20k just to keep in female?  so another 100k stacked on there yay

>now i need to train it

>im faced with either 1. paying 190k for vitamins or spending 2hrs or so grinding Evs. Idk which sounds more fun yo

>cool now i simply have to level my comp which shouldnt take over an hour at all

Note: where am I getting this money from? grinding NPC trainers every 6 hours for 90k every chance I get, taking up over 2 hours of my time

 

>Cool now I have a good competitive blastoise and only exhuasted ALL of my resources and spent way too much time

>Time to make SIX MORE pokemon and then when im done time to make more sets etc.

 

Why is it so fucking exhuasting?

God the comp making process is poopy.

 

ANYWAY.

I like the idea of making tutors sort of 'renewable' rather than having to dump some rare items on it. The need for multiple sets reminds me of that ThinkNice suggestion for giving each poke 5 moves and choosing 4 to have active. Unrealistic? Yea. Sad part is that since the days of ThinkNice we still have made zero progress towards helping players make multiple comps of the same species. I don't know why the end game of a pokemon game years  old can't be tended to. I don't understand why after year upon year, the game gravitates towards forcing players back to similar play like during the story line days. The story line embraced all of the opportunities of getting pokemon, but who cared about money? They story line took like 24hrs if you were dumb right? Now we are at the point were the vast majority of the playerbase has thousands of hours. THOUSANDS. Why can't the end game of competitive play be made easier? Why is hours of grinding the reward for hours of grinding? For the sake of keeping the end game healthy, the competitive meta must be considered in development. Making it harder to adapt to the competitive meta is basically taking a shit on the end game.

 

Any suggestion to make grinding take less hours of my time, I'm behind it.

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0bcf26e41527fa2ba2da86a388c53b29.png

 

I don't have much more to say. Screen says all.

I have exactly the same feelings Keith. I have problems making comps because of expensive tutor moves, battle tower moves, time-consuming and money-consuming breeding. Creating one comp poke takes me like a week, sometimes even more, because after the catching, gathering items for moves, PP maxing, I have to evtrain and level it. And it takes again time. If I would be up to find a stick or 2 silk scarfs for ONE tutor without which my poke would be ineffective, I'd add like ~2 hours to already days I spent on making one poke.

One.

 

Gotta admit that is the post that fired me up to start this thread in the first place, so nice addition.

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I think we have ignored this topic for too long now. We all know the ease of pokemon cloning that was going on in the past. It was easy to make multiple sets, and at the same time experimenting was easier as you could test around by rebreeding or buying TMs. So while egg moves were often free, tutor moves could be bought by the numerous alt-runners, and later from renewable tutors.
 
But then the idea of item payment came, which effectively took the cost of one move to over 100k. This is bad for the competitive game, where the meta is very likely to stagnate due to the high cost of experimenting/changing up your move set. The frustration is visible in the competition alley, where people barely bother discussing the proposed bans anymore. I think this game took a wrong step towards grind, punishing competitive players just to give them an excuse to repeatedly kill wild pokemon in every corner of the map instead of battling a few NPCs to get the quick cash.
 
This is not exactly a suggestion, but more of a discussion. I am curious if you are considering these problems and working to solve them. Let's not pretend casual players will ever use these tutors (apart from maybe something silly, such as blast burn charizard). These features are aimed at the competitive community, and with the latest update, I feel the players have been let down and discouraged from experimenting or changing their sets mid-tournaments.
 
A possible solution would be including these tutor moves in the same list as the egg moves tab on the pokemon, thus making them re-learnable the second time via a heart scale. I feel that the fact that the focus is now on each individual Pokémon is a good step, but the costs at which these come should be responsibly considered and responded to. This includes the ease of obtaining battle points as well, as I feel absolutely discouraged from grinding that tower time and time again until I reach a ridiculous amount of 25k average per special move. And this comes from a player who got 93 wins in a row, so pretty sure the team I was using was not the problem.
 
So in short notice, I hope that we can continue to "buff" our existing pokemon by adding special moves to them, rebreeding for better IVs. I like this. I just hope you guys consider and find a way to make it less of a waste of time for players, and encourage creativeness, dynamic sets by making these moves easier to change.



All their removing any legitible way to make Pokedollar or breed or remove all cash items ect did was make the old players that abused those efforts rich and every new player or didnt exploit that effort broke and not having fun.

Theres nothing wrong with inflation. Its how life processes. But removing any means to make cash and halting inflation doesnt lower prices it only removes all interest in the activity. They were stupid idea's.

If they followed how the official game's worked it would be much better. More fun and lively. Sure some guys might max out their cash and shiny pokemon prices will continue to inflate but that is how high value rare goods work. At this point I'm worried it'll take an entire day to get back anything i spend on a few potions or balls. Edited by tipherith
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A possible solution would be including these tutor moves in the same list as the egg moves tab on the pokemon, thus making them re-learnable the second time via a heart scale.

This is a great idea and should be implemented IMO.

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This is a great idea and should be implemented IMO.


Agreed aswell. If the prices are gonna be extremely rediculus for anything but the possible ways to make any pokedollars non-existant then atleast make the tm's/tutors ect all be relearnable at the move reminder tutors.
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It's the result of high demand, low supply. Surely, if that pickup rate went to about 10% or 20%, it would almost be pleasant.

yeah, and once again classical economists are wrong! high demand and low supply didnt increased the commerce, instead it went the other way

I hate you Adam Smith!

Edited by LuisPocho
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Can we please give all the dive encounters the same encounter rate, its actually obnoxious how impossible it is to find a Relicanth let alone one that's holding a green shard. For prob the past hour I've been searching, I'm now using the repel trick because I's becoming stacked on yellow and blue that I don't need them anymore. Yet still, after about 30 repels I've only found 1 green shard. 30 repels cost about 22.5k, I could've just gone onto trade and bought the shard for 35k in 10000000x less the time it took to get this one. Also, CAN WE PLEASE GET RID OF THE FUCKING SCALES, I didn't even know Relicanth held scales until today, why they now hold them.....idek.

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Can we please give all the dive encounters the same encounter rate, its actually obnoxious how impossible it is to find a Relicanth let alone one that's holding a green shard. For prob the past hour I've been searching, I'm now using the repel trick because I's becoming stacked on yellow and blue that I don't need them anymore. Yet still, after about 30 repels I've only found 1 green shard. 30 repels cost about 22.5k, I could've just gone onto trade and bought the shard for 35k in 10000000x less the time it took to get this one. Also, CAN WE PLEASE GET RID OF THE FUCKING SCALES, I didn't even know Relicanth held scales until today, why they now hold them.....idek.

I've been repeating the same thing about scales in every thread I can do it, it's certainly not bad for them since they're not hunting for shards but us and yeah I advice u not to do the repel trick is just not worthy, it's better just to run around for hours praying your luck doesn't suck and u can find some relicanths and even more important praying that they have shards and not FUCKING SCALES!! (This apply to corsolas too, I don't want to go hunt for red shards and get a lot of fucking hardstones that I find already with pick up and farming everstones too)

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I can comfirm there is another guy who wants 100k for a single stick :P

 

The sad part is that I don't think he is overpricing it that much. There is a lot of demand for that item and not enough supply.

He could be Island running instead of farming that stick which should give him about the same amount of money guaranteed.

By farming route 12 he is putting himself at the risk of not getting a stick after 2 hours of farming. To be honest if I had one hour

to play and my goal was to get a Stick to finish my comp in that hour. I'd rather do the Island run and pay 100k for it than searching

for the stick and not get it in the end.

 

Nothing feels worse than dedicating a certain amount of time to use pickup for these items and stand there empty handed at the end because

you weren't lucky enough. Grinding for essential items shouldn't be based on luck imo.

 

This just feels so wrong and is demotivating and drastically decreases the fun of Pokemmo.

 

I want to participate in the Clef cup that's happening soon and will need 3 scarves for that. I put in some time to get some useful metronome pokemon.

Then I ev train them. I know that will take some time. But I know exactly when I'll be done. But whenever I even think about getting these scarves or

try to get them I lose all my motivation to keep playing. I spam tradechat for one hour while searching at bond bridge and have nothing at the end.

 

Making the players feel like they waste their time is not the right way to go imo and should be fixed asap

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Another question on the topic would be: how much would you like to, at most, spend for obtaining one move? Be it TM, tutor move or event move. And I don't want ridiculous answers that will never happen, but an actual amount of time that is bearable and also not too easy. For example, I would spend, at most, 30 minutes to obtain one of these moves. Anything more than that seems like disrespect towards the players.

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