[NU Discussion] Walrein

[felix]

Hidden power grass walrein would utterly destroy it with hidden power grass changing it to a grass type then it needs to take an ice beam, then surf is neutral damage. It also has no offense vs walrein, basically relying on thunder wave to do anything. Kecleon is also fairly unviable and underused within NU. 

 

if you switch in a superfang, you can heal up while hited by the hp grass

252+ SpA Walrein Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kecleon: 23-28 (13.7 - 16.7%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Walrein Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kecleon: 92-110 (55 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Grass type)

Yey, I can recover stall, after a twave, speed walrein is pretty weak for revenge kills and allows Kecleon to insta-heal all day long

 

252+ SpA Walrein Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kecleon: 46-55 (27.5 - 32.9%) -- 82.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (Ice type)

 

 

0 Atk Kecleon ThunderPunch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Walrein: 56-66 (30.2 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

It seems to me that in a 1v1, Kecleon would beat the standard Walrein

 

I'm clearly not saying that Walrein is, or is not broken, it doesn't looks like atm.

[BurntZebra]

if you switch in a superfang, you can heal up while hited by the hp grass

252+ SpA Walrein Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kecleon: 23-28 (13.7 - 16.7%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Walrein Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kecleon: 92-110 (55 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Grass type)

Yey, I can recover stall, after a twave, speed walrein is pretty weak for revenge kills and allows Kecleon to insta-heal all day long

 

252+ SpA Walrein Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kecleon: 46-55 (27.5 - 32.9%) -- 82.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (Ice type)

 

 

0 Atk Kecleon ThunderPunch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Walrein: 56-66 (30.2 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

It seems to me that in a 1v1, Kecleon would beat the standard Walrein

 

I'm clearly not saying that Walrein is, or is not broken, it doesn't looks like atm.

So you're running a recover thunder wave thunderpunch kecleon? That is horribly centralizing. Kecleon is also pretty much never used. Its used about 1 time per an entire tournament. I'll admit its a decent answer to walrein, although it kills any momentum a team has if the other person has an electric type or ground type. Ground types are pretty powerful now, so giving them a free switch in anytime you try to stop walrein will make you lose pretty quickly. Kecleon also loses to walrein if it gets toxic'ed either from walrein or some other pokemon. 

 

Well the way I see it now, defensive teams just can't handle walrein because the teams are too slow and nothing really reliably switches in vs a super fang walrein. Offensive teams just lack any switch in at all and walrein can take hits from scyther/crobat, outspeeds threats like sandslash/armaldo. It can even take a thunderbolt from electabuzz. 

[Robofiend]

Once Kecleon Color-Changes to Grass it's gonna get nuked by Ice Beam.. Also the "hey why don't we all use this usually not that great pokemon because it checks something that's really good" argument never ends well. If people aren't using it now, that's a good sign that they probably aren't going to start running it (nor should they) because of some new threat that developed.

 

I'm willing to give Walrein some more time though, I feel like the "trouble switching in" argument, as unsatisfying as it is to me right now might become better once NU evolves a little bit, although it is still true that we don't have a lot of pokes that can really threaten Walrein or even check it that well. 

[felix]

I think I'm repeating myself over and over in those threads, but it just like that some people just want to run always the same team, use just the same strategy and when they found something that breaks their strategy they don't want to improve, they go straight for removing it from the tier, I just take those threads to usually bring something that people don't use, not because they are not good, just because they don't look at all the options they have.

 

as I said in the Ampharos thread, the usage in NU is poorly divided, that if someone gets to the semi finals and run Kecleon in all his matches it will be at the top 30 in usage. You guys are usually talking about the usage like we are on showdown with thousands of usage stats, when we have, accordingly to the last usage table 269 teams (inb4 some council member bring values that only they have) and some of those pokes there are not even in the tier anymore.

 

Clearly by the first page discussion, people just look at the top 10 pokes and start saying things like, no instarecovery, cause they are not looking on how to improve their teams, they just want to use the same over and over.

 

Imo, the NU tier is going to fast, mostly player doesn't have time to build teams and think about it, try out new things, cause of our slow breeding process, even slower now with the new tutors and when they finish, the council ban before any tournament. How many bans did we had in NU last updates? How many tournaments did we have? Did everyone really tried out all the options they could have? It seems that if you don't get calcs with the amazing over 10% usage in NU, meaning 16 poke (3 of them are already gone, if I didn't miss more), your point is invalid, it seems to me a very narrow view of the tier.

 

After all what I found more interesting is the lack of council members to see the broken usage and bring it as argument when they want and refute when they don't want, every thread over and over. By all the points I made here, I will say that this is NOT a usage discussion is more like a theory discussion due the recent changes, if I cannot theorize about some not so usage pokes, why open the discussion them?

[BurntZebra]

I think I'm repeating myself over and over in those threads, but it just like that some people just want to run always the same team, use just the same strategy and when they found something that breaks their strategy they don't want to improve, they go straight for removing it from the tier, I just take those threads to usually bring something that people don't use, not because they are not good, just because they don't look at all the options they have.

People don't even run the same teams that much in NU. That is much more of a problem in UU and OU at the moment. But here's the problem, its not like some team just magically has 3 walrein counters and walrein will never be an issue. It is ALWAYS an issue. You mentioned one mediocre pokemon that can kind of take on walrein but is not really that great in doing anything with that thunderpunch/thunder wave moveset. Stuff like wigglytuff can switch in on walrein but its not going to do much either. You're basically suggesting that the meta centralizes around kecleon to stop walrein, which is pretty ridiculous. Psychic types don't really stop walrein in the long run when they are forced to rest as soon as they come in, after taking a surf and super fang (aka grumpig, as girafarig will die to super fang+ice beam). 

 

as I said in the Ampharos thread, the usage in NU is poorly divided, that if someone gets to the semi finals and run Kecleon in all his matches it will be at the top 30 in usage. You guys are usually talking about the usage like we are on showdown with thousands of usage stats, when we have, accordingly to the last usage table 269 teams (inb4 some council member bring values that only they have) and some of those pokes there are not even in the tier anymore.

NU usage is more divided than any other tier, although its not really updated that much. I feel like you don't watch tournaments that much, or you're just basing your arguments off what your poau team mates run every match. There are more NU pokemon than either UU pokemon or OU pokemon (assuming we have an imaginary cutoff of 4.36% on the NU usage). 

Clearly by the first page discussion, people just look at the top 10 pokes and start saying things like, no instarecovery, cause they are not looking on how to improve their teams, they just want to use the same over and over.

 

Imo, the NU tier is going to fast, mostly player doesn't have time to build teams and think about it, try out new things, cause of our slow breeding process, even slower now with the new tutors and when they finish, the council ban before any tournament. How many bans did we had in NU last updates? How many tournaments did we have? Did everyone really tried out all the options they could have? It seems that if you don't get calcs with the amazing over 10% usage in NU, meaning 16 poke (3 of them are already gone, if I didn't miss more), your point is invalid, it seems to me a very narrow view of the tier.

Walrein has been a huge threat since the beginning of NU, even with ampharos around, as ampharos was pretty much worn down immediately after it came in vs a super fang from walrein. People have tried new things already. For example, in the autumn finale, I knew I was up vs sebat first round. I know that he runs that shiny walrein with hp grass. I anticipated it and brought electabuzz, mantine, grumpig, sableye, and blastoise, in order to take on walrein. Even then, walrein still plowed through mantine+grumpig and ended up ohko'ing sableye due to a crit. If there was an actual walrein counter, I would have definitely run it, but unfortunately nothing really does. 

 

After all what I found more interesting is the lack of council members to see the broken usage and bring it as argument when they want and refute when they don't want, every thread over and over. By all the points I made here, I will say that this is NOT a usage discussion is more like a theory discussion due the recent changes, if I cannot theorize about some not so usage pokes, why open the discussion them?

Well usage sort of matters in a tiering sense. Wonder why tyranitar was banned even though hitmontop, hariyama, machamp, etc could stop it? Because its not healthy for a tier to force people to run certain pokemon to stop tyranitar. Hitmontop was the best counter to tyranitar, but saw little usage because it was total ass outside of beating tyranitar. A similar situation with kecleon and walrein. Theory discussions are useful sometimes, but others can be a bit misleading, when there are a really specific set of circumstances that allow walrein to be checked, even though they usually won't apply in actual game play situations. Sure kecleon can switch in if its full hp and there are no spikes down and its not statused, but realistically, NU has 3 pretty good spikers and 1 actually used rapid spinner, along with 2 spinblockers. Heal bell users are a bit scarce now, so kecleon might not be able to heal its status. If any of those conditions are met, then kecleon no longer even serves as a check to walrein. Also, when someone thinks that wigglytuff or something can just stall out walrein, they're forgetting its going to take over 30 turns and freezes are a thing, as well as crits. 

[Robofiend]

I think I'm repeating myself over and over in those threads, but it just like that some people just want to run always the same team, use just the same strategy and when they found something that breaks their strategy they don't want to improve, they go straight for removing it from the tier, I just take those threads to usually bring something that people don't use, not because they are not good, just because they don't look at all the options they have.

 

I feel like I'm repeating myself as well when people make walls of text about how we shouldn't ban pokes but don't make any suggestions of ways of stopping. If you don't want Walrein to bre banned, bring us some checks/counters that can prevent us from getting swept. If you want this posts to be taken seriously, you can't complain about the system or the people running it - it just looks bad.

 

as I said in the Ampharos thread, the usage in NU is poorly divided, that if someone gets to the semi finals and run Kecleon in all his matches it will be at the top 30 in usage. You guys are usually talking about the usage like we are on showdown with thousands of usage stats, when we have, accordingly to the last usage table 269 teams (inb4 some council member bring values that only they have) and some of those pokes there are not even in the tier anymore.

 

Regardless, even with a small-ish sample size we're forced to take usage as being somewhat representative of what's going on in the tier. We aggregate usage so we can say for sure that no one uses Kecleon in tournaments, for instance. It's better than everyone just pulling arguments out of their ass about what gets used and what doesn't.

 

Clearly by the first page discussion, people just look at the top 10 pokes and start saying things like, no instarecovery, cause they are not looking on how to improve their teams, they just want to use the same over and over.

 

Imo, the NU tier is going to fast, mostly player doesn't have time to build teams and think about it, try out new things, cause of our slow breeding process, even slower now with the new tutors and when they finish, the council ban before any tournament. How many bans did we had in NU last updates? How many tournaments did we have? Did everyone really tried out all the options they could have? It seems that if you don't get calcs with the amazing over 10% usage in NU, meaning 16 poke (3 of them are already gone, if I didn't miss more), your point is invalid, it seems to me a very narrow view of the tier.

 

Sounds like someone just bred a Walrein and is madbrah, because we've purposely been going as slow as possible with NU. It's been around for months and the only things that have been banned are Jynx and Ampharos. The others just got moved by usage. 

 

After all what I found more interesting is the lack of council members to see the broken usage and bring it as argument when they want and refute when they don't want, every thread over and over. By all the points I made here, I will say that this is NOT a usage discussion is more like a theory discussion due the recent changes, if I cannot theorize about some not so usage pokes, why open the discussion them?

 

Look, it's not like we're just going to throw usage stats out the window. A lot of hard work goes into collecting/processing them and, like I said above, the other option is NOT looking at usage and instead having everyone say "WAT DO U MEAN TANGELA IS ON LIKE PRETTY MUCH EVERY TEAM LOL IT SHOULD BE BANNED." It should be painfully obvious why collecting, using and basing arguments off of usage statistics is superior to whatever it is you're suggesting.

[felix]

So many personal attacks, kids those days don't kniw how to take a critic

@zebra

Ice/thunder punch is good coverage wise, you could run return but you will not be able to do damage to ghosts, twave is an amazing support move. And you are using your own usage bases on what you saw instead of the official one? [sarcasm] that wont be biases at all[/sarcasm] saying that a special walll cant beat a physical one is dumb, the discussion is about walrein, ground types have nothing to do with it.

@robo

I didnt breed in a while, not even mad about the discussion, but it seems to me that nobody wants to discuss anything, when was the last time you supported your opinions with calcs? I just see you with theory around, not even the op has calcs to support the discussion, pretty lame, both of you (if you see up there I showed through calcs that hp grass and ice beam isnt enough, you should try to do calcs instead of shittalking)

I will refrain from future posts on discussions, it seems that the only council members that want to share with the community just want to look right instead of instigate a discussion. Feel free to keep your personal attacks against me, I will keep laughing from your childish

[BurntZebra]

So many personal attacks, kids those days don't kniw how to take a critic

@zebra

Ice/thunder punch is good coverage wise, you could run return but you will not be able to do damage to ghosts, twave is an amazing support move. And you are using your own usage bases on what you saw instead of the official one? [sarcasm] that wont be biases at all[/sarcasm] saying that a special walll cant beat a physical one is dumb, the discussion is about walrein, ground types have nothing to do with it.

@robo

I didnt breed in a while, not even mad about the discussion, but it seems to me that nobody wants to discuss anything, when was the last time you supported your opinions with calcs? I just see you with theory around, not even the op has calcs to support the discussion, pretty lame, both of you (if you see up there I showed through calcs that hp grass and ice beam isnt enough, you should try to do calcs instead of shittalking)

I will refrain from future posts on discussions, it seems that the only council members that want to share with the community just want to look right instead of instigate a discussion. Feel free to keep your personal attacks against me, I will keep laughing from your childish

I'm using the official usage for nu and somewhat off of what was run in the autumn finale tournament to base my arguments, rather than guessing that people might run kecleon. Kecleon just isn't that viable, although it can be annoying with knock off/thunder wave, it's not really enough to justify an argument to not ban walrein. Edited November 13, 2015 by BurntZebra

[gbwead]

I have played Kecleon a lot and it is not as bad as some may think. Even though I suck at NU right now, Kecleon is not the one that has let me down in my team build. He is able to win a lot 1v1 and has proven useful in many instances.

 

Imo, the problem with Kecleon is that everytime he comes in play you lose a lot of momentum. Color Change can be a great ability to avoid freeze from ice beam, but it stills hurts you a lot when it limits your options after a switch. 

 

if you switch in a superfang, you can heal up while hited by the hp grass

252+ SpA Walrein Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kecleon: 23-28 (13.7 - 16.7%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Walrein Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kecleon: 92-110 (55 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Grass type)

Yey, I can recover stall, after a twave, speed walrein is pretty weak for revenge kills and allows Kecleon to insta-heal all day long

If you are forced to recover, you become a bait for many threats of the tier that can take advantage of the free switch you give them. Thunder wave + thunder punch + ice punch + recover might seem like a good coverage on paper, but it still struggles against several pokemons. 75 base power punches with no ev atk investment and no stab is pretty weak.

 

Like Zebra mentionned earlier, Toxic is also a huge problem for Kecleon. If he is toxic when he switches on Walrein, he is completly screwed because "recover stall" won't be possible.

[KaynineXL]

Firstly @lambert remove them walls, play NU and go aggro. ;)

 

Secondly I don't think Kecleon is too bad, I'v seen it a fair few times, even battled against it multiple times in a tournament. It's ability is a double-edged sword, it can either be a pain in the ass or helpful. It looks to me it can beat Walrein, but I don't think it should play a huge factor in the decision for the ban because it's still a little risky.

Edited November 13, 2015 by KaynineXL

[NikhilR]

I will refrain from future posts on discussions, it seems that the only council members that want to share with the community just want to look right instead of instigate a discussion. Feel free to keep your personal attacks against me, I will keep laughing from your childish

 

Please don't refrain from posting in these discussion threads. Every opinion is taken into consideration. 

 

I haven't tried Kecleon so I don't know whether or not it'll be useful, but from my point of view, Walrein does seem to be too strong. In UU we have standard spdef walls like Kanga/Clefable to take hits, then you have others like Tentacruel / Lanturn which can immediately threaten it out. It's just hard to see their equivalent in NU. May be with Hypno, Walrein won't seem to be that powerful but only time will tell. 

[DoubleJ]

@felix, I understand where you are coming from when you favor keeping Walrein in NU. Although, the tier council, which includes myself, recognize the crippling support capabilities that a single set can offer. There isn't much instant recovery in NU that can battle through Super Fang spam. Haunter and Misdreavus may be immune to this, but Haunter fails to OHKO and in turn dies to STAB Ice Beam, which isn't a favorable situation when you consider it could even take a OHKO on the switch. Misdreavus is a nice option and can even set-up with CM, although its poor base speed, on bulky variants, make it an unfavorable choice in our fast meta (especially with an increased use of Sneasel). 

 

252+ SpA Walrein Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Haunter: 115-136 (95.8 - 113.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

 

Regarding Kekleon, while I have seen it used successfully, it requires near perfect play to stop Walrein. Namely switching in safely (on HP maybe?), being able to Twave twice (taking into account for Lum), and avoiding a crippling HP Grass to Ice Beam combo type-switch. And even then, Kekleon really only serves to paralyze a dominant threat so that it can't continue to beat down your team. 

 

Another option is bulky CM Grumpig which can abuse Walrein's special attacks and power up. Unfortunately though, it too has poor speed and is easily revenge killed. 

 

All in all, the things that stop Walrein are in danger of being murdered early in the game by physical powerhouses. Walrein also supports its team and prepares for a sweep by spreading damage throughout. To me, Walrein is scary on paper and in game. There isn't much that can beat it and those that do are easily evaded since fighting and rock spam have a number of resists and immunities. 

[OrangeManiac]

For a second, let's not just talk about counters and checks or even calcs as the only focus. Let's actually try to figure out what Pokemon you can bring in your team and actually claim "Yeah, this Pokemon reliably brings pressure on opposing Walrein user and/or limits the performance of opposing Walrein notably" vs "Because of Walrein these Pokemon may or will notably underperform in battle when facing a Walrein".

 

I'll include every Pokemon that isn't complete trash tier just for the sake of not making assumptions of the usage. And for the sake of argument, I'll present mostly the EV Spreads as worst case scenarios for Walrein except Speed, so you cannot claim i.e. Aggron is a way to beat Walrein just because it might be faster.

 

Warning: Massive wall of text.

 

[spoiler]

Aggron - Not even speedy CB works reliably since Walrein is faster. Massive damage from Surf.

Arbok - Loses because of base stats, Giga Drain and Rock Slide barely do anything

Armaldo - Massive damage from Surf

Banette - Has nothing notable on Walrein and awful base stats.

Bellossom - SunnyBeam set won't pressure Walrein because SunnyBeam is ridiculously easy to counter. 1v1 encounter is kinda tied, maybe slightly behind. Check at absolutely perfect circumstances.

 

0 SpA Walrein Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bellossom: 102-122 (56 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Bellossom Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 24 SpD Walrein: 96-114 (51.8 - 61.6%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

0 SpA Walrein Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bellossom: 74-90 (40.6 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Bellossom Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 24 SpD Walrein: 66-80 (35.6 - 43.2%) -- 96.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Check count: 1

 

Cacturne - Slower and dies to one Ice Beam.

Camerupt - Slower and died to one Surf.

Chimecho - Specially Defensive Calm Mind w/ Thunderbolt does something, to be fair. Unfortunately Psychic types are limited because of Sneasel. Just for the sake of it, let's say it limits Walrein somewhat. CM + Wish + Thunderbolt Chimecho beats Walrein.

 

Check count: 2

 

Crobat - Has nothing on it

Dewgong - Does nothing that Walrein doesn't so there is no reason you wouldn't meet this thing instead of other Walrein.

Diglett - Doesn't reliably trap against a Curse user so no point or bringing to beat a Walrein.

Electabuzz - Finally one Pokemon that actually keeps Walrein on its heels. Just for the sake of argument, let's say Walrein doesn't run EQ and call that this Pokemon limits Walrein significantly. Not a counter though because 2HKOd and doesn't OHKO. Limits Walrein user significantly, though.

 

252 SpA Electabuzz Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Walrein: 144-170 (77.4 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Walrein Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Electabuzz: 76-90 (54.6 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Walrein Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Electabuzz: 100-118 (71.9 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

 

Electrode - Pretty much same as Ebuzz

Flareon - Won't take a Surf with pleasure even though it might live a hit so let's rule this out. Speed ties.

Girafarig - Specially defensive w/ Tbolt checks Walrein

 

Check counter: 3

 

Gligar - lol

Golduck - Doesn't take much from Walrein but cannot really do anything back.

Golem - Slower and afraid of Surf.

Gorebyss - Gets walled by Walrein.

Grumpig - Significantly limits Walrein's performance. CM set beats Walrein.

 

Counter counter: 1

 

Haunter - Takes WAYYY to much damage to come in and doesn't reliably OHKO. Brings pressure on Walrein user because of the high damage dealt.

Hitmonchan - Counter on speedy one, check at worst. For the sake or argument let's call it a counter.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Hitmonchan Sky Uppercut vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Walrein: 224-266 (103.2 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Walrein Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hitmonchan: 61-73 (48.4 - 57.9%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO

 

Counter counter: 2

 

Hitmontop - Kinda ties on a match up.

Jumpluff - Ice ice baby.

Kabutops - Not even a reliable check on Walrein but for the sake or argument, it does bring pressure to Walrein.

 

252+ Atk Kabutops Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Walrein: 140-168 (75.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Walrein Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 69-82 (50.7 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Kadabra - Takes too much damage from Walrein and barely does nothing.

Kecleon - Cannot really do much damage on Walrein, mostly just Toxic it up while Walrein can Toxic back. Excluding Rest pretty even matchup.

Lapras - Walrein can't touch and Lapras can Thunderbolt. Definitely a counter.

 

Counter counter: 3

Hard Counter: 1 (Counters Walrein and steals momentum from it in pretty much all possible cases)

 

Lunatone - lol

Magcargo - lol

Magmar - lol

Mantine - Does pretty much nothing and needs to be afraid of HP Electric

Misdreavus - Doesn't check Walrein but CM set does limit Walrein somewhat.

Mr.Mime - Specially defensive Mime is of the most reliable counter in this whole list.

 

Counter counter: 4

 

Muk - Does nothing on it and Curse set has advantage.

Nidoking - Eats Tbolt for breakfast and OHKOs. Walrein can quite easily eat Superpowers too.

Nidoqueen - Same as above.

Ninetales - gl setting up on STAB 95 base stat Surf

Piloswine - Slower and afraid of Surf

Pinsir - CB Superpower doesn't OHKO and doesn't reliably live 2 Surfs/Ice Beams.

Politoed - Kinda a staredown until one dies to Toxic.

Poliwrath - Probably the hardest counter there is.

 

Counter counter: 5

Hard Counter: 2 (Counters Walrein and steals momentum from it in pretty much all possible cases)

 

Primeape OHKOs so it's a counter.

 

252 Atk Choice Band Primeape Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Walrein: 242-288 (111.5 - 132.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Counter counter: 6

 

Raichu - Doesn't OHKO, gets 2HKOd. Limits Walrein but doesn't even check.

Rapidash - gl hf

Relicanth - Slower, takes a lot of damage and that HP Grass.

Roselia - Unless Special Defensive, kinda tied encounter.

Sableye - get outstalled m9

Sandslash - Rock Slides and dies.

Scyther - Reversal set can do something.

Seviper - Giga Drain too weak.

Sharpedo - Walrein eats bulky Crunches for breakfast and Shark doesn't like HP. Limits Walrein but doesn't check at any way.

Shedinja - Toxic me pls.

Shiftry - Takes too much from Ice Beam. CB set limits Walrein.

Shuckle - fuckle pls

Sneasel - Low Kick hurts. So Sneasel does significantly limit Walrein. Not even a reliable check because 2HKOd and not a reliable OHKO at all.

Solrock - lol

Stantler - Kinda ties with defensive Walrein.

Swalot - Cannot really do anything significant. Giga Drain from those base stats is pedestrian as best and Walrein can EQ.

Tangela - Enjoys Ice Beam a lot.

Togetic - See above

Torkoal - Surf

Tropius - Your bananas got a bit frozen.

Victreebel - SunnyBeam doesn't bring pressure to Walrein user because of how easily walled that moveset is in NU. For the sake of the argument, let's consider Victreebel either a physical or a Giga Drain user and claim it limits Walrein's performance because it is faster.

Wailord - Inferior to Walrein both in Cursing, stalling, you name it.

Whiscash - Doesn't like HP Grass and Rock Slide/Spark isn't that scary.

Zangoose - Nvm doesn't. Takes too much damage so check at best with CB Low Kick.

 

So in conclusion:

 

7 Pokemon in NU tier counters Walrein. Which mean they can switch in to any attack and pretty much always OHKO a Walrein (or set up CM or whatever).

2 of these Pokemon hard counters Walrein by switching in on them and absolutely stealing the momentum from them.

In addition 3 Pokemon checks Walrein, which means that depending on the EV spreads and moves it most of the time beats Walrein but not notably.

8 Pokemon in addition isn't enough to call them a reliable check but they're Pokemon you can bring in your team with a purpose of limiting a Walrein.

 

And then probably the most significant stat of this list. Pokemon that Walrein beats in this list with pretty much any standard or Hidden Power including set: 34. 

 

Walrein has a notable amount of possible counters in this list, maybe more than most banworthy Pokemon. But the list of the Pokemon that Walrein actually beats is so high. The Pokemon that check/counter or even limit Walrein to Pokemon that lose to Walrein is 18-34 while 2 of the Pokemon notably steals momentum from Walrein. A lot of the Pokemon that beats Walrein are highly viable but at the same time the Pokemon Walrein beats are at least somewhat viable so I feel like it has offensive characteristics to it if something.

 

I'm aware I could have analyzed some things more specific but getting the metagame through as a whole while no much usage is what I thought would be the wisest thing to do atm.

[/spoiler]

Edited November 14, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[Gunthug]

For a second, let's not just talk about counters and checks or even calcs as the only focus. Let's actually try to figure out what Pokemon you can bring in your team and actually claim "Yeah, this Pokemon reliably brings pressure on opposing Walrein user and/or limits the performance of opposing Walrein notably" vs "Because of Walrein these Pokemon may or will notably underperform in battle when facing a Walrein".

 

I'll include every Pokemon that isn't complete trash tier just for the sake of not making assumptions of the usage. And for the sake of argument, I'll present mostly the EV Spreads as worst case scenarios for Walrein except Speed, so you cannot claim i.e. Aggron is a way to beat Walrein just because it might be faster.

 

Warning: Massive wall of text.

 

[spoiler]

Aggron - Not even speedy CB works reliably since Walrein is faster. Massive damage from Surf.

Arbok - Loses because of base stats, Giga Drain and Rock Slide barely do anything

Armaldo - Massive damage from Surf

Banette - Has nothing notable on Walrein and awful base stats.

Bellossom - SunnyBeam set won't pressure Walrein because SunnyBeam is ridiculously easy to counter. 1v1 encounter is kinda died, maybe notably behind. Check at absolutely perfect circumstances.

 

0 SpA Walrein Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bellossom: 102-122 (56 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Bellossom Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 24 SpD Walrein: 96-114 (51.8 - 61.6%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

0 SpA Walrein Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bellossom: 74-90 (40.6 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Bellossom Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 24 SpD Walrein: 66-80 (35.6 - 43.2%) -- 96.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Check count: 1

 

Cacturne - Slower and dies to one Ice Beam.

Camerupt - Slower and died to one Surf.

Chimecho - Specially Defensive Calm Mind w/ Thunderbolt does something, to be fair. Unfortunately Psychic types are limited because of Sneasel. Just for the sake of it, let's say it limits Walrein somewhat. CM + Wish + Thunderbolt Chimecho beats Walrein.

 

Check count: 2

 

Crobat - Has nothing on it

Dewgong - Does nothing that Walrein doesn't so there is no reason you wouldn't meet this thing instead of other Walrein.

Diglett - Doesn't reliably trap against a Curse user so no point or bringing to beat a Walrein.

Electabuzz - Finally one Pokemon that actually keeps Walrein on its heels. Just for the sake of argument, let's say Walrein doesn't run EQ and call that this Pokemon limits Walrein significantly. Not a counter though because 2HKOd and doesn't OHKO. Limits Walrein user significantly, though.

 

252 SpA Electabuzz Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Walrein: 144-170 (77.4 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Walrein Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Electabuzz: 76-90 (54.6 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Walrein Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Electabuzz: 100-118 (71.9 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

 

Electrode - Pretty much same as Ebuzz

Flareon - Slower, won't take a Surf with pleasure even though it might live a hit so let's rule this out.

Girafarig - Specially defensive w/ Tbolt checks Walrein

 

Check counter: 3

 

Gligar - lol

Golduck - Doesn't take much from Walrein but cannot really do anything back.

Golem - Slower and afraid of Surf.

Gorebyss - Gets walled by Walrein.

Grumpig - Significantly limits Walrein's performance. CM set beats Walrein.

 

Counter counter: 1

 

Haunter - Takes WAYYY to much damage to come in and doesn't reliably OHKO. Brings pressure on Walrein user because of the high damage dealt.

Hitmonchan - Counter on speedy one, check at worst. For the sake or argument let's call it a counter.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Hitmonchan Sky Uppercut vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Walrein: 224-266 (103.2 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Walrein Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hitmonchan: 61-73 (48.4 - 57.9%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO

 

Counter counter: 2

 

Hitmontop - Kinda ties on a match up.

Jumpluff - Ice ice baby.

Kabutops - Not even a reliable check on Walrein but for the sake or argument, it does bring pressure to Walrein.

 

252+ Atk Kabutops Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Walrein: 140-168 (75.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Walrein Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 69-82 (50.7 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Kadabra - Takes too much damage from Walrein and barely does nothing.

Kecleon - Cannot really do much damage on Walrein, mostly just Toxic it up while Walrein can Toxic back. Excluding Rest pretty even matchup.

Lapras - Walrein can't touch and Lapras can Thunderbolt. Definitely a counter.

 

Counter counter: 3

Hard Counter: 1 (Counters Walrein and steals momentum from it in pretty much all possible cases)

 

Lunatone - lol

Magcargo - lol

Magmar - lol

Mantine - Does pretty much nothing and needs to be afraid of HP Electric

Misdreavus - Doesn't check Walrein but CM set does limit Walrein somewhat.

Mr.Mime - Specially defensive Mime is of the most reliable counter in this whole list.

 

Counter counter: 4

 

Muk - Does nothing on it and Curse set has advantage.

Nidoking - Eats Tbolt for breakfast and OHKOs.

Nidoqueen - Same as above.

Ninetales - gl setting up on STAB 95 base stat Surf

Piloswine - Slower and afraid of Surf

Pinsir - CB Superpower is a notable counter.

 

Counter counter: 5

 

Politoed - Kinda a staredown until one dies to Toxic.

Poliwrath - Probably the hardest counter there is.

 

Counter counter: 6

Hard Counter: 2 (Counters Walrein and steals momentum from it in pretty much all possible cases)

 

Primeape OHKOs so it's a counter.

 

252 Atk Choice Band Primeape Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Walrein: 242-288 (111.5 - 132.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Counter counter: 7

 

Raichu - Doesn't OHKO, gets 2HKOd. Limits Walrein but doesn't even check.

Rapidash - gl hf

Relicanth - Slower, takes a lot of damage and that HP Grass.

Roselia - Unless Special Defensive, kinda tied encounter.

Sableye - get outstalled m9

Sandslash - Rock Slides and dies.

Scyther - Reversal set can do something.

Seviper - Giga Drain too weak.

Sharpedo - Walrein eats bulky Crunches for breakfast and Shark doesn't like HP. Limits Walrein but doesn't check at any way.

Shedinja - Toxic me pls.

Shiftry - Takes too much from Ice Beam. CB set limits Walrein.

Shuckle - fuckle pls

Sneasel - Low Kick hurts. So Sneasel does significantly limit Walrein. Not even a reliable check because 2HKOd and not a reliable OHKO at all.

Solrock - lol

Stantler - Kinda ties with defensive Walrein.

Swalot - Cannot really do anything significant. Giga Drain from those base stats is pedestrian as best and Walrein can EQ.

Tangela - Enjoys Ice Beam a lot.

Togetic - See above

Torkoal - Surf

Tropius - Your bananas got a bit frozen.

Victreebel - SunnyBeam doesn't bring pressure to Walrein user because of how easily walled that moveset is in NU. For the sake of the argument, let's consider Victreebel either a physical or a Giga Drain user and claim it limits Walrein's performance because it is faster.

Wailord - Inferior to Walrein both in Cursing, stalling, you name it.

Whiscash - Doesn't like HP Grass and Rock Slide/Spark isn't that scary.

Zangoose - CB Low Kick OHKOs so let's call it a counter.

 

Counter count: 8

 

So in conclusion:

 

8 Pokemon in NU tier counters Walrein. Which mean they can switch in to any attack and pretty much always OHKO a Walrein.

2 of these Pokemon hard counters Walrein by switching in on them and absolutely stealing the momentum from them.

In addition 3 Pokemon checks Walrein, which means that depending on the EV spreads and moves it most of the time beats Walrein but not notably.

8 Pokemon in addition isn't enough to call them a reliable check but they're Pokemon you can bring in your team with a purpose of limiting a Walrein.

 

And then probably the most significant stat of this list. Pokemon that Walrein beats in this list: 34. 

 

Walrein has a notable amount of possible counters in this list, maybe more than most banworthy Pokemon. But the list of the Pokemon that Walrein actually beats is so high. The Pokemon that check/counter Walrein to Pokemon that lose to Walrein is 11-34 while 2 of the Pokemon notably steals momentum from Walrein. A lot of the Pokemon that beats Walrein are highly viable but at the same time the Pokemon Walrein beats are at least somewhat viable so I feel like it has offensive characteristics to it if something.

 

I'm aware I could have analyzed some things more specific but getting the metagame through as a whole while no much usage is what I thought would be the wisest thing to do atm.

[/spoiler]

Fantastic analysis here, and I hate to nitpick, but there's no way Pinsir can be called a counter since it can switch in, what, once on a surf? So I'd argue the number of counters is even lower (primeape is a shaky counter too since it also can't switch in more than once per match, barring wish support)

[OrangeManiac]

Fantastic analysis here, and I hate to nitpick, but there's no way Pinsir can be called a counter since it can switch in, what, once on a surf? So I'd argue the number of counters is even lower (primeape is a shaky counter too since it also can't switch in more than once per match, barring wish support)

 

 

Welp, I imagined Pinsir to hit a little bit harder. You're right. Here's no bulk Walrein just for the reference.

 

252+ Atk Pinsir Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walrein: 160-190 (86.4 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

[BurntZebra]

I wouldn't say poliwrath or lapras are hard counters. Assuming they switch in on super fang, they can only take two hidden powers each, neither outspeed Walrein, and neither ohko Walrein (obviously). I'd be hesitant to even call grumpig a counter to Walrein, or even more hesitant for girafarig whom has even worse special defense. Walrein can basically force grumpig to rest before grumpig even had a chance to set up. Then Walrein is free to super fang the resting grumpig and switch to any physical attacker.

[Robofiend]

Pretty much /agree with everything zeeb said. Almost all of the listed counters are limited to switching in between once or twice. While some of them can threaten Walrein out, the main problem is that nothing reliably or repeatedly swiches in and forces it out - even with good prediction.

@ Orange - props for doing that analysis. the only other comment I have that no one else has touched on is that more than a couple of the Pokemon listed, like hitmonchan, aren't highly used or viable at the moment.

[Winterclaw]

Are there any NU pokemon discussions didnt endup with banning the pokemon? I'll just assume walrein is banned. Sometimes i feel like council members are vote banning pokemons which they dont use and/or they cant handle :P

 

Inb4 i get a warning beacuse of this or everyone hates me :rolleyes:

Edited November 20, 2015 by Winterclaw

[NikhilR]

Are there any NU pokemon discussions didnt endup with banning the pokemon? I'll just assume walrein is banned. Sometimes i feel like council members are vote banning pokemons which they dont use and/or they cant handle :P

 

Inb4 i get a warning beacuse of this or everyone hates me :rolleyes:

 

It sucks that you feel that way Winter, but no we don't ban pokemon on the basis of whether we don't use or can't handle. We ban it if it fits the ban criteria. Walrein has a base speed which allows it to outspeed most of the rock type choicebanders which prevent it from being revenge killed by them. A modest nature one has a spak stat of 161 and there are hardly any safe switch ins to it, bar grumpig or bulky tbolt lapras. Earlier Ampharos was widely used which could keep Walrein in check. Moreover Walrein is very bulky that it gets mostly 2hko'd by any pokemon that is faster than it and it has the capability to ohko that pokemon back.

 

So far no fixed decision has been made and we're hoping for more tournaments so that we can make a final decision on the matter, but it'd really help if you could be a little more constructive with your posts by backing it up with calcs or proper reasoning as to why you feel it isn't banworthy.

[Robofiend]

Are there any NU pokemon discussions didnt endup with banning the pokemon? I'll just assume walrein is banned. Sometimes i feel like council members are vote banning pokemons which they dont use and/or they cant handle :P

 

Inb4 i get a warning beacuse of this or everyone hates me :rolleyes:

 

Zangoose was not banned but was discussed. Blastoise was not banned (it was moved due to UU usage). The only things that we have banned are Cradily and Ampharos. Like Nik said, be constructive. We don't ban things because we can't handle them, we ban them because you can't handle them (you = the broader community and metagame). So if you think you can handle Walrein, let us know how you do it so we can take that into consideration when we make a decision.

[Winterclaw]

I was constructive as much as i posibly can and provided damage calculations in the past but they banned anyway, im sorry to feel this way tho.

 

Anyway just one calculation based on ghost poke switched in walrein then switch back to something who dosent die to icebeam/surf stab.

 

252+ SpA Walrein Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Raichu: 82-97 (60.7 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ SpA Walrein Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Raichu: 82-97 (60.7 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk Magnet Raichu Volt Tackle vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Walrein: 204-240 (110.2 - 129.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

these calculations based on MainThreat set walrein vs usual volttackle raichu.

 

Edit:  And please, about toise, you say it like you guys are moving up/down everything that has high usage.

 

Edit2: Poliwrath is faster and Adamant Choice band 97.2% OHKO walrein. On 1v1 poliwrath is faster and superior if you run bellydrum&brickbreak. Not need to calculate +6 BB can OHKO walrein. Walrein can 3HKO 0hp/0spdef poliwrath at best.

 

[spoiler]252+ SpA Walrein Hidden Power Electric vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Poliwrath: 68-80 (41.2 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Even if superfang then HP electric it cant do better than 3HKO. even after bellydrum, it takes 2 hp electric to take down poliwrath, cant use 2nd hp electric after bellydrum anyway[/spoiler]

Edit3: Endure-reversal Raichu/scyther endure-reversal set is an answer for walrein.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Poliwrath Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Walrein: 180-212 (97.2 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO 

 

 

Endure-Reversal Scyther Jolly

 

252 Atk Scyther Reversal (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Walrein: 212-250 (114.5 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Endure-Reversal Raichu Jolly

 

252 Atk Raichu Reversal (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Walrein: 186-220 (100.5 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Edited November 20, 2015 by Winterclaw

[Gunthug]

I was constructive as much as i posibly can and provided damage calculations in the past but they banned anyway, im sorry to feel this way tho.
 
Anyway just one calculation based on ghost poke switched in walrein then switch back to something who dosent die to icebeam/surf stab.
 
252+ SpA Walrein Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Raichu: 82-97 (60.7 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO[/size]
 
252+ SpA Walrein Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Raichu: 82-97 (60.7 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO[/size]
 
252 Atk Magnet Raichu Volt Tackle vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Walrein: 204-240 (110.2 - 129.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO[/size]
 
these calculations based on MainThreat set walrein vs usual volttackle raichu.
 
Edit:  And please, about toise, you say it like you guys are moving up/down everything that has high usage.

Blastoise was moved up because it got enough usage in UU to rise above the NU cutoff (4.something%). This happens to every poke in every tier

[BurntZebra]

I was constructive as much as i posibly can and provided damage calculations in the past but they banned anyway, im sorry to feel this way tho.

 

Anyway just one calculation based on ghost poke switched in walrein then switch back to something who dosent die to icebeam/surf stab.

 

252+ SpA Walrein Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Raichu: 82-97 (60.7 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ SpA Walrein Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Raichu: 82-97 (60.7 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk Magnet Raichu Volt Tackle vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Walrein: 204-240 (110.2 - 129.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

these calculations based on MainThreat set walrein vs usual volttackle raichu.

 

Edit:  And please, about toise, you say it like you guys are moving up/down everything that has high usage.

 

Edit2: Poliwrath is faster and Adamant Choice band 97.2% OHKO walrein. On 1v1 poliwrath is faster and superior if you run bellydrum&brickbreak. Not need to calculate +6 BB can OHKO walrein. Walrein can 3HKO 0hp/0spdef poliwrath at best.

 

[spoiler]252+ SpA Walrein Hidden Power Electric vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Poliwrath: 68-80 (41.2 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Even if superfang then HP electric it cant do better than 3HKO. even after bellydrum, it takes 2 hp electric to take down poliwrath, cant use 2nd hp electric after bellydrum anyway[/spoiler]

Edit3: Endure-reversal Raichu/scyther endure-reversal set is an answer for walrein.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Poliwrath Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Walrein: 180-212 (97.2 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO 

 

 

Endure-Reversal Scyther Jolly

 

252 Atk Scyther Reversal (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Walrein: 212-250 (114.5 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Endure-Reversal Raichu Jolly

 

252 Atk Raichu Reversal (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Walrein: 186-220 (100.5 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Those are checks for the most part as they can only switch in basically one time and the reversal ones require set up. Obviously walrein won't stay in vs a 1 hp scyther or raichu/pikachu in general (although pika is ohko'ed)

[BurntZebra]

I can see where is this going to...

You mean it might get banned because you don't have a valid argument?
Atm kecleon is the only thing that can actually kind of switch in vs Walrein, although it doesn't have much viability in the meta and hates the potential toxic from Walrein.

[Robofiend]

You mean it might get banned because you don't have a valid argument?
Atm kecleon is the only thing that can actually kind of switch in vs Walrein, although it doesn't have much viability in the meta and hates the potential toxic from Walrein.

 

If Walrein's running Toxic/Super it's a lot less effective - without HP Electric it's going to fail against Mantine/Poliwrath and Grumpig can still speed creep it and revenge-Toxic it, although Grumpig's not a super awesome answer to Walrein without CM/Rest/SleepTalk. 

 

I agree that Raichu and Scyther are pretty piss-poor arguments for keeping Walrein in the tier (although Raichu's Static is cool). First, Raichu is never ever used in NU and second, Scyther can't guarantee a switch in - sure, it could Endure if it comes in against the right coverage move, but Sub/Rev is much better and that's still a huge risk, seeing as 2/3 special attacks from Walrein do a ton of damage to Scyther. Overall, neither are great answers, although maybe Raichu can be useful in some other circumstances.