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codylramey

A message to help protect newbs agaisnt preditory trading when you catch your first shiny

Question

I think that when you catch your first shiny there should be a warning message explaining how rare and how sought after a lot of shinies are. And in that message there could be a warning that people will low ball new trainers for their shinies, but it is not required. Say something of the sort "some shinies are worth 1 million and some can be worth 30 million and more" or something. Then suggest "be sure to know the value of your shiny before selling it. You can get community feed back by going here" and then link the forums.

Why should this happen? Because noobs are naive and many of them get greatly ripped off by shiny traders when they catch their first shiny. And while its not the job of staff and the devs to protect them from predatory trading there is no harm in educating them on the fact that it happens and giving them a chance to get a fair deal on their shiny.

 

Sample message

[spoiler]

You catch a shiny

Professor oak comes up to you (or not)

Oak: "Ah! i see you have caught a shiny pokemon. Shiny pokemon are a rare breed of pokemon who has a slightly different color than other pokemon of the same species. These pokemon are VERY rare and highly sought after by the community. You can usually sell shiny pokemon to other trainers at a high price. Shiny pokemon can be worth 1 million yen, others can be worth up to 30 million yen, and some can be worth even more than that!!!! The value varies from species to species. If you do decided to sell your shiny pokemon I recommend you going to the pokemon trainer froums here https://forums.pokemmo.eu/or straight to the value discussion page here https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/47400-value-discussion/ to ask the community for feedback on what your shiny would be worth if you should sell it. You can also ask any of the community moderators for help if you need it. Good Luck!!!"

[/spoiler]

Edited by codylramey

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Anyway the best attitude to have in any game when you find something rare is to keep it until you know the market well enough to give it an exact price.

Just remind newbz that shinies are the perfect example of this.

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1) No. If the Devs link a value thread in game. That's the value thread. They approve it. I don't even know why you can't get that. 
 
2) They can get feedback in game, there are chats ( Global, Channel, possibly Team, Friends and ask a Mod ) and all. There is a link to the forum, and if they need feedback they know themself, no need for you to tell them. If they wanna advice they'll ask. If they don't think they need, it's their problem.

Teammates and friends are the only reliable source. Channel is the place where shiny traders apparently go to find noobs to rip off (according to an earlier post on this thread).

Not only that providing the resources is only half the point. Letting the noobs know just how much a shiny COULD be worth is the other half. Bc to a noob 3 mill sounds like a lot.

They do approve of the value thread. Whats wrong with that? The peron who created it was a mod at the time. If the devs didnt approve of it it wouldnt be there anymore. It deff wouldnt be pinned. So yes you are right linking the value thread means they approve of the thread. But there is nothing wrong with that.

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Let me correct something that is blatantly wrong. The value discussion thread was created as a one stop shop for getting appraisals on Pokemon so trade corner would not be clogged with hundreds of threads asking how much their Pokemon is worth. It was pinned for quick access not because we see the values as official values. So linking that thread at any point in game is saying that whatever value is stated there is the officially recognized value when it is not. What this will lead to is an influx of players reporting players for not paying the amount in the thread. While we can say we don't get involved in these disputes the best way to avoid this is by not giving the impression that we deem those values to be official.

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Let me correct something that is blatantly wrong. The value discussion thread was created as a one stop shop for getting appraisals on Pokemon so trade corner would not be clogged with hundreds of threads asking how much their Pokemon is worth. It was pinned for quick access not because we see the values as official values. So linking that thread at any point in game is saying that whatever value is stated there is the officially recognized value when it is not. What this will lead to is an influx of players reporting players for not paying the amount in the thread. While we can say we don't get involved in these disputes the best way to avoid this is by not giving the impression that we deem those values to be official.

None of that is true tho. Linking the value discussion does not mean they endorce the content. Jus that they endorce a thread that allows you to get community feedback for your values not the feedback itself. If you diclaim that the thread is only for community feedback and not offical prices then problem solved. But that should be so obvious that i would be insulted if they did that. Edited by codylramey

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Maybe you should rename that into "shiny value thread" because you won't get any answer if you ask for the value of a comp.

Give it a try

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In the end new players really don't care about the exact value of shinys.  I've had team mates catch/hatch shinys and even after the whole team tells them the worth, they still take the low ball offers because it's a lot of money to them.  Eventually they may regret it but there is only so much hand holding you can do, the economy needs to thrive somehow.  The new players can get a good step in the right direction towards breeding/comp and the traders make profit, its a win-win.

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if the scenero goes down like that, even if they regret it at the end, then there is no problem. They made a bad decision even with the info at their disposal. At that point it really is their fault. Not all noobs are like that. Not all of them have friends to ask about this kind of thing. This suggestion is for them. Not the ones who have access to the info and still make bad decisions.

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i missed a lot of discussion here but:

 

I generally think suggestions like this are a pain in the ass, unnecessary and generally silly, but I'm actually ok with this implementation because it's pretty minimal and helps to deal with the problem where players catch a shiny and have no idea what it's actually worth. Even if you know that shinies appear 1/X encounters, X is only as important as the number of players who play the game. 

 

While new players could go look up info about shinies online, that info doesn't say anything about the economy of PokeMMO. While staff aren't obligated to manage this part of the game so much it might help reduce turnover (players get a shiny, sell it and and then quit because they run out of money or become disenchanted about trading).

 

re: strawman fallacy - i didn't really see cody's posts as strawman arguments, he more or less just summed up a lot of points people made and then provided a brief explanation of why those claims were reductionistic. summing up an argument into a bullet point does not equate to a strawman, so long as the original argument being made is not diluted or made into something it's not.

Edited by Robofiend

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A simple message like "Congratulations! You just caught your first shiny. Be careful, it may be very valuable." can only have a positive impact. While not giving a value, it makes new people aware that shinies are actually rare, without insulting anyone's intelligence. No need to bring value discussion as a reference point, the simple message can make people ask around and research on their own.

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A simple message like "Congratulations! You just caught your first shiny. Be careful, it may be very valuable." can only have a positive impact. While not giving a value, it makes new people aware that shinies are actually rare, without insulting anyone's intelligence. No need to bring value discussion as a reference point, the simple message can make people ask around and research on their own.

While ei disagree with some points in this message this  is still better than nothing. The reason i think there should be more is because "very valuable" means different things to people in different parts of the game. A noob will see 3 mill offer on his shiny shakoth and thing gee that was very valuable. At least, if you dont want to link to the value discussion, put something like "it could be very valueable. Some shines can be worth X amount of dollars." Just as an example.

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While ei disagree with some points in this message this  is still better than nothing. The reason i think there should be more is because "very valuable" means different things to people in different parts of the game. A noob will see 3 mill offer on his shiny shakoth and thing gee that was very valuable. At least, if you dont want to link to the value discussion, put something like "it could be very valueable. Some shines can be worth X amount of dollars." Just as an example.

 

Well, telling them a number crosses over to the insulting realm, I believe. If I was new and I got a shiny quite quickly, I would have probably not given it much importance. But the message is a nice way to inform people without intruding too much or presenting an actual number. If even after a simple warn message they still get scammed, they deserve it.

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re: strawman fallacy - i didn't really see cody's posts as strawman arguments, he more or less just summed up a lot of points people made and then provided a brief explanation of why those claims were reductionistic. summing up an argument into a bullet point does not equate to a strawman, so long as the original argument being made is not diluted or made into something it's not.

 

nah, a strawman is just intentionally misrepresenting an opposing argument. By taking an argument like this:

 

I'm not a fan of this suggestion because I do believe that there comes a point where players have to take responsibility for themselves in game without staff intervention. I believe that there are more than enough ways for someone to find out the value of something in game, if they are a forums user they can use the value discussion thread or if not they could approach a staff member in game who would point them to the right place. In real life you wouldn't put something up for sale or do a deal with someone without first finding out the value of the said object. If someone was given a Ferrari and went on to sell it for £40 the fault would lie on that individual for not waiting to do some background research on its true value. 

 

It's not even like players that dont know what shiny Pokemon are cant easily find out online. The first link for a google search of "Shiny Pokemon" is Bulbapedia's entry for it where it clearly explains that this is a rare alternately coloured variation of the species. Logic would dictate that someone should probably do a little more research into the valuation of this shiny Pokemon before they considered selling it. 

 

I also do not believe that describing a portion of our player base as "low ballers" and "predatory" is really a fair thing to do. Especially as many people have differing opinions on the values of shiny Pokemon. At times there are debates in the Value Discussion thread where a particular shiny can be valued differently by players at a difference of up to $10,000,000. I dont think that it would ever be productive of us as a community to portray our players in a negative light. 

 

That's not to say that "low balling" doesn't happen but it is something completely preventable if a player takes responsibility for themselves. If we chose to warn them about this would we also make warning messages against scammers? It would be pretty difficult to see where to draw the line. 

 

and turning it into this:

 

 

 

Its not staffs job to moderate trade

 

- the argument has been misrepresented. And the intentional part comes from this:

 

 

 

And the reason i posted that is bc i wanted to point out how little the opposing side had in the way of an argument.

 

Taking a page and a half of arguments, then saying "Ok here's the arguments ive seen against my suggestion," proceeding to list off a few short bullet points with heavily biased wording, then refuting the bullet points you presented is a textbook strawman, especially when you then comment on "how little the opposing side has in the way of arguments."

 

edit: to keep this post somewhat on topic, i don't think a simple message like keith proposed would be harmful. I think it would be completely unnecessary though once we get a global trading hub, which makes the time spent on it worthless imo. Even if they whipped something together in 10 minutes, we know they're not taking the server down unless for a major update.

Edited by Gunthug

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Taking a page and a half of arguments, then saying "Ok here's the arguments ive seen against my suggestion," proceeding to list off a few short bullet points with heavily biased wording, then refuting the bullet points you presented is a textbook strawman, especially when you then comment on "how little the opposing side has in the way of arguments."

 

Well technically... *explains textbook strawman, I'm sure you already know*. I'm not sure what else to say other than that summation =/= misrepresentation. Cody did give a lenghthy (yet maybe unsatisfactory) reply to the quoted Noad post, so it's a bit of a strawman on your part, with regards to this meta-argument, to argue as if he did just reply with a one liner. #gotem. The post with bullet points seemed to be a summation of all arguments made, and I read several posts in this thread saying something to the effect of "it's not the staff's job to moderate the economy."

 

Anyway I think neither of us care that much about this so... yeah. I'd be surprised if this suggestion in particular is implemented, but it does point out a problem where most of the information about this game lives on the forums and that doesn't do anything for non-English speaking players. Even if a player somehow found out about the forums from another player, non-English speakers have no way of finding out the value of anything without either another player helping them or learning English.

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Warning about shinies when you caught one are not good solution IMO. If you want to help new players that arent aware about shiny market, just make a warn on the FAQ or make one threat for new players and make a link of it on FAQ.

 

The community that plays everyday or at least 2-3 times a week knows the marked of shinies, and after my 670 hours of playing, i didnt want to sell my shiny to anyone, of course, because i was aware about it before catching one.

 

IMO, this problem is an INFO problem, warn it just when you catch one, will not work.

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Well technically... *explains textbook strawman, I'm sure you already know*. I'm not sure what else to say other than that summation =/= misrepresentation. Cody did give a lenghthy (yet maybe unsatisfactory) reply to the quoted Noad post, so it's a bit of a strawman on your part, with regards to this meta-argument, to argue as if he did just reply with a one liner. #gotem. The post with bullet points seemed to be a summation of all arguments made, and I read several posts in this thread saying something to the effect of "it's not the staff's job to moderate the economy."

 

Anyway I think neither of us care that much about this so... yeah. I'd be surprised if this suggestion in particular is implemented, but it does point out a problem where most of the information about this game lives on the forums and that doesn't do anything for non-English speaking players. Even if a player somehow found out about the forums from another player, non-English speakers have no way of finding out the value of anything without either another player helping them or learning English.

regarding your second paragraph i think we both know that if it doesnt affect the bottom line (ie: donation $$) then it's not something devs are gonna go out of their way to fix, especially when there's a fix on the horizon (global trading hub). Your observation re: forums info and non-english speaking players is pretty much dead on, though.

 

back to strawman, i certainly wasn't suggesting cody ONLY replied to the arguments with a one liner - in fact, i think his counter arguments were fine, and took place immediately after said posts which is the proper time for an argument-counter argument. However, to THEN "collect" all the arguments he had already addressed into one post, slash off 95% of their content, then say "look how little the opposition has," that's a misrepresentation of all those arguments. I'm not saying he misrepresented their stances, but an argument is more than just a stance. There's a clear difference between "I don't like football" and "I don't like football because x, y, and z," and cody essentially took away the x,y, and z, and said "look at these feeble arguments."

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Well, telling them a number crosses over to the insulting realm, I believe. If I was new and I got a shiny quite quickly, I would have probably not given it much importance. But the message is a nice way to inform people without intruding too much or presenting an actual number. If even after a simple warn message they still get scammed, they deserve it.

How is it insulting tho? Its just putting into retrospect how valuable the shiny could possibly be. If you just saying "the shiny is valuable" doesnt do that. It would help sure but i dont think it goes far enough.

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How is it insulting tho? Its just putting into retrospect how valuable the shiny could possibly be. If you just saying "the shiny is valuable" doesnt do that. It would help sure but i dont think it goes far enough.

 

The question is, how much do you want to spoonfeed these newbies? It is acceptable for someone who has no clue what a shiny even is to assume they are common and cheap. But once you inform them they may be very valuable, they have the responsibility to discover that value. The game is social, if they fail to discover the value even after that, they pretty much fail.

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We need this and much more, as long as shiny trading exists, because shiny trading is most of the times scamming.

It could be fine if shinies were something people would actually find, but most people (me included) never found any.

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The question is, how much do you want to spoonfeed these newbies? It is acceptable for someone who has no clue what a shiny even is to assume they are common and cheap. But once you inform them they may be very valuable, they have the responsibility to discover that value. The game is social, if they fail to discover the value even after that, they pretty much fail.

I understand what you are saying and it is a valid point (unlike a lot of points brought up in this thread). I do agree that it is up to the noob to find the value of their shiny not the devs. I just want to be clear as there could be some confusion in our discussion, i am not suggestion that in this imaginary message we straight out give them the price of their shiny. I am suggesting a line that is a blanket statement that shows just how valuable a shiny could be. "Some shinies could be worth X amount of dollars". Because in just saying "Its really valuable" youre leaving it up to the noob who has no understanding on what the shiny market is like and no general understanding on what the general market is like to determine what is considered valuable. Thats how they get taken advantage of.

Edited by codylramey

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Actually this idea is pretty likeable, I've seen a kid get scammed his shiny Pidgey, how you may ask and how do low-ballers/scammers do their thing? It all depends on how n00b-ish the person is. Mostly it goes down like this:

 

n00b: [PIDGEY] why does it have other color?

*Immediately whispers n00b*

Scammer: Hey kid, I like the nature of that pokemon, can I buy it from you?

n00b: for 15k

Scammer: That's quite expensive but cause you're a new player I'll pay that much.

 

Or in different cases the n00b doesn't want money for it, in that case the 'scammer' decides to trade a "cool pokemon" for it. The most common "cool pokemon's" I know of are mostly Umbreon, Flygon, Salamance and Dragonite.

 

 

Edit: The warning sign or something doesn't even have to be so complicated just something like this maybe:Beg_WildernessWarning.png

Edited by ShadowGary

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