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A message to help protect newbs agaisnt preditory trading when you catch your first shiny


codylramey

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I think that when you catch your first shiny there should be a warning message explaining how rare and how sought after a lot of shinies are. And in that message there could be a warning that people will low ball new trainers for their shinies, but it is not required. Say something of the sort "some shinies are worth 1 million and some can be worth 30 million and more" or something. Then suggest "be sure to know the value of your shiny before selling it. You can get community feed back by going here" and then link the forums.

Why should this happen? Because noobs are naive and many of them get greatly ripped off by shiny traders when they catch their first shiny. And while its not the job of staff and the devs to protect them from predatory trading there is no harm in educating them on the fact that it happens and giving them a chance to get a fair deal on their shiny.

 

Sample message

[spoiler]

You catch a shiny

Professor oak comes up to you (or not)

Oak: "Ah! i see you have caught a shiny pokemon. Shiny pokemon are a rare breed of pokemon who has a slightly different color than other pokemon of the same species. These pokemon are VERY rare and highly sought after by the community. You can usually sell shiny pokemon to other trainers at a high price. Shiny pokemon can be worth 1 million yen, others can be worth up to 30 million yen, and some can be worth even more than that!!!! The value varies from species to species. If you do decided to sell your shiny pokemon I recommend you going to the pokemon trainer froums here https://forums.pokemmo.eu/or straight to the value discussion page here https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/47400-value-discussion/ to ask the community for feedback on what your shiny would be worth if you should sell it. You can also ask any of the community moderators for help if you need it. Good Luck!!!"

[/spoiler]

Edited by codylramey
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I think that when you catch your first shiny there should be a warning message explaining how rare and how sought after a lot of shinies are. And in that message there could be a warning that people w

I'm not a fan of this suggestion because I do believe that there comes a point where players have to take responsibility for themselves in game without staff intervention. I believe that there are mor

*"some shiny pokemon can be worth less than 1 million yen, while others can be worth 400+ million yen"   but other then changing that one line sounds good. sure the players are responsible not staff

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More importantly, this is pretty accurate.

Edit: imo ofc

Edit 2: Page King

How, if we take out the part which says there will be people who low ball them, simply inform them that their shiny could be worth a lot, tell them they should look up the value, and direct them to the tools to do so, how does that make the player base look like jerks? I just dont get the logic.

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How, if we take out the part which says there will be people who low ball them, simply inform them that their shiny could be worth a lot, tell them they should look up the value, and direct them to the tools to do so, how does that make the player base look like jerks? I just dont get the logic.

I disagree with doing all of that, all that really needs to be done is
 

"Hey, this is a shiny pokemon they appear very very rarely in the wild"

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Any pricing system that requires external research into value will encourage sharking, which PokeMMO has a problem with anyway. Zero consequences for it, easy access to marks, and a variable pricing system that is not clearly displayed? That is a playground for sharking and other nefarious trade related problems. 

 

I think that a quick message stating that someone might get sharked for their first shiny is a step in the right direction. 

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I disagree with doing all of that, all that really needs to be done is
 

"Hey, this is a shiny pokemon they appear very very rarely in the wild"

You need to let them know just how much their shiny could possibly be worth and show them the tools to figure out the value.

 

Most people know shiny pokemon are rare. The disconnect comes with knowing just how much people in this game value shiny pokemon. As been stated many times before 3 million dollars sounds like a lot of money to a noob but it really isnt. If they knew that their shiny could possibly be worth 400 million (freds maximum in his example) then they wouldnt be so quick to sell it for whatever seemingly high offer a shiny trader looking to rip them off is offering.

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LOL. I know some kids from my childhood that would've liked to have a Mod/GM present during our card trading sessions... Cause they got rippppped.

But they learned a valuable lesson, about life and the predatory nature of people. So who's got a shiny I can poach?!

I don't think people should be protected from such life lessons.

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I have no idea how anyone can be against this idea....13 year old kid catches a rare shiny doesn't always have the knowledge to protect himself and its not right to say no we shouldn't warn them bc they should know better...not to mention professor oak congratulating u on your shiny would be pretty awesome after the rush of catching a shiny for the nostalgia of the whole ordeal.....+10 for this to happen

By the way if we are talking about a comp getting ripped off it happened to most of us but selling a 30m$ shiney for 2 mil$ nobody should have to o through that it's not a life lesson its being a word I can't say bc I don't want this post taken away

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So far the arguments agaianst this suggestion have been

  • Will make the community look bad

This argument held water when i was suggestiing we warn them against lowballers in this messege. But sense this was brought up i have withdrawn my defense of this position as it is not needed to accomplish the goal of this suggestion. I fail to see how this suggestion makes the community look bad w/o that aspect to it.

  • Its not staffs job to moderate trade

This is a strawman failacy. (Did i do that right gunthug?). Nobody in this thread is asing staff to moderate trade. We simply want to inform noobs of what a shiny is, how valueable it could possibly be. and where to go to find the value when they catch a shiny. And it is well with in the devs responsibility to inform the players of the aspects and tools the game has.

  • They will not read it anyway.

This argument makes a rather large assumption that cant be proven nor does the people who asisume this have any logical basis to base this assumption on. People do scroll throught the NPCs information when it is familiular to them. If they know the storyline and what to do they wont read the instructions and hints, if they have ben to the PC a dozen times they wont read what nurse joy is saying, etc etc. But if something like catching a shiny happens and a random text box shows up, something the player hasnt seen while catctching any other pokemon, it will most likely hold their attention and a lot of them probably will read it. Especially if there was a scripted event like prof oak showing up to expalin what a shiny is. Sure some will skip it but logically speakin a lot of them wont because it would be a change in pace of the natural rutiene which tends to hold peoples attention.

  • Its their fault they got ripped off

I dont even... This argument is based off the fact that there is a value discussion which is on the forums which is linked in the FaQ. If you are a new player to this game then most likely you know nothing of the shiny market, you know very little of the forums, and you havent read the Faq. :Lets start with the shiny market. I have been playing this game for years and i still know nothing of shiny values. And the games economy is something of intrest to me soo why would you expect a noob to know anything about it? The forums, its common knowlege that much of the player base isnt on the forums. The people who are on the forums are usually vets and older (age) players. But a lot of people, especially noobs, dont use the forums much until they have been playing a while. Faq... who acually reads these things when you begin a game. Especially one as simple and well known as pokemon. Also all the faq does is point them to the forums, has no mention of shinies (as far as im aware) and it doesnt speak of shiny values. Idt it even says that you can find the value of pokemon on the forums in the faq. (i could be wrong i actually havent read it.).

  • They agreed to the price.

This arguemnt is stating that since they agreed to the price that there was no harm done. People who used this argument also state "The value of the shiny is up to the individual". This is almost as bad as the its their fault argument. Pokemmo has a shiny market. The MARKET decides the value of shiny pokemon. Does anyone who advocates this argument think that a noob would sell his shiny that is worth 30 million dollars for 3 million if he knew that the markey valued that shiny at 30 million. If the answer is no then this argument holds no water. (ill give you a hint on what the answer is... its no)

  • Its a life lesson

We arent here to learn life lessons we're here to play pokemon online. There are other ways to let the toxic side of the community teach noobs lessons in this game than letting them be ripped off from millions of dollars.

 

I think i covered just about everything. I am genuanly surprised that anyone besided people who like to rip off noobs would be against this suggestion. Especially the staff. Preditory trading is a problem in this game, it can make playing pokemmo a less enjoyable expearence for those who fall prey to it. All im asking for is for the devs to add a feature in the game that gives these noobs the information they need to keep themselves from being a victim.

Edited by codylramey
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I am opposed to this because there is a fine line between helping players and telling them that we don't think they are intelligent enough to look for something when they need it. This borders on insulting to players considering the fact that it pops up and tells them that they caught a shiny, something they already know, and going a step further in assuming that they will even want to take part in the shiny market. By your notion that the market sets the price this message should come up the first time anything of value is obtained. Furthermore you are also assuming that the players you are aiming to protect even care about shiny Pokemon. This whole suggestion is based on the assumption that players will immediately want to trade their first shiny and allow themselves to get ripped off, in your opinion. While the market may set the prices the players are free to negotiate whatever price they feel fair at the time of trading.

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I am opposed to this because there is a fine line between helping players and telling them that we don't think they are intelligent enough to look for something when they need it. This borders on insulting to players considering the fact that it pops up and tells them that they caught a shiny, something they already know, and going a step further in assuming that they will even want to take part in the shiny market.

You must have soft skin if you think this is insulting. We have a message that tell us that the pokemon that was just caught was caught, should we get rid of that bc that seems a little more obvious than what a shiny pokemon is (i didnt know what a shiny was b4 i started playing this game btw.). Also how dare that nurse joy tell me that my pokemon are at full health when shes done with it. Ofc they are shes the nurse thats why i gave my pokemans to her.

 

It doesnt assume that people will want to take part in the shiny market. Thats why the sample message i left said IF you want to sell it. Not only that why is that a bad thing? They lose 30 sec of their life being introduced to a concept they dont care abou bc they want to keep their shiny. Where other noobs lose millions of dollars worth of assets bc they are ill informed of the valuetheir shiny holds in the current system.

By your notion that the market sets the price this message should come up the first time anything of value is obtained.

Shinies a way different than anything else in this game. They hold more value than anything else and arent as readily available as anything else. Somebody gets ripped off from a comp they can grind a week to get another, somebody gets ripped off a shiny it will take months to regain that money they loss (whens the last time you had 27 million in this game). So no not everything that holds value should be for warned about.

 

 

Furthermore you are also assuming that the players you are aiming to protect even care about shiny Pokemon.

Even if a player doesnt care about shinies most players of any mmo will care about currency. A player losing 27 million dollars bc they didnt know about the shiny market, didnt know about forums, didnt know about the value disscussion thread, you know being a noob should not happen so easily.

 

 

This whole suggestion is based on the assumption that players will immediately want to trade their first shiny and allow themselves to get ripped off, in your opinion.

This isnt an assumption, it fucking happens. I started this thread bc i read about a noob sellig a shiny slkth for 3-4 mill then the buyer getting 30 mill for it. There were two stated cases like this in the shiny revolution thread. Thats why i keep using the figures 3 mill and 30 mill. And if you dont call that getting ripped off then you are being willfully ignorant.

 

 

While the market may set the prices the players are free to negotiate whatever price they feel fair at the time of trading.

yes but noobs arent aware of how much their stuff is actually worth. Anbd in the case of shinies more than anything else this could cost them millions of potental dollars. There is nothing wrong with informing them of this when they catch a shiny. Its not insulting, and even if it was making the assumption they want to sell when they dont there is no harm in that.

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So far the arguments agaianst this suggestion have been

 

 

 

  • Its not staffs job to moderate trade

This is a strawman failacy. (Did i do that right gunthug?).

Considering that you condensed every so called argument against ur suggestion into short, half sentence bullet points IN THIS VERY POST, just so you could then refute them, you have a hilariously ironic misunderstanding of what the strawman fallacy is.

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Considering that you condensed every so called argument against ur suggestion into short, half sentence bullet points IN THIS VERY POST, just so you could then refute them, you have a hilariously ironic misunderstanding of what the strawman fallacy is.

 

he was right, it was a strawman fail acy

 

: )

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he was right, it was a strawman fail acy

: )


No that is also a fair point because making an official post saying something to the effect of, "these are the official values of shiny pokemon" will give the impressions that we will get involved if someone does scam someone. That is also what this suggestion does as well. So not at all a strawman argument. There are better ways to deal with this rather than having an extra dialog come up.
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Nobody is asking for an official post to give shiny values. That would actually be incredibly dumb bc we have a player based economy. I am aksing for a messege that says hey you have a ahiny they are valueable (show an example of how valueable they can be) and to show them the places to go to find out their value ie the forums and the value thread. Nowhere in that suggestion do i say we need mods to moderate trade nor does it say we need an official tread for shiny values. So you are attacking points i didnt make.

Also gunthug i dont know the falicies by heart. Thats why i jokingly asked you if i got the right one. Had no time to look it up when i typed that. And the reason i posted that is bc i wanted to point out how little the opposing side had in the way of an argument. Thos bulletpoints may be condenced but they are accurate.

Edited by codylramey
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Nobody is asking for an official post to give shiny values. That would actually be incredibly dumb bc we have a player based economy. I am aksing for a messege that says hey you have a ahiny they are valueable (show an example of how valueable they can be) and to show them the places to go to find out their value ie the forums and the value thread. Nowhere in that suggestion do i say we need mods to moderate trade nor does it say we need an official tread for shiny values. So you are attacking points i didnt make.

Also gunthug i dont know the falicies by heart. Thats why i jokingly asked you if i got the right one. Had no time to look it up when i typed that.

my point was that your entire post was a strawman fallacy because you took other people's arguments, changed them to bite sized little chunks that you could easily refute, then did so. So, as I said, your joke was quite ironic. As to the merits of the arguments that you strawmanned/refuted, I don't care enough to touch on that lol

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my point was that your entire post was a strawman fallacy because you took other people's arguments, changed them to bite sized little chunks that you could easily refute, then did so. So, as I said, your joke was quite ironic. As to the merits of the arguments that you strawmanned/refuted, I don't care enough to touch on that lol

did you read the posts on here? Are my bulletpoints not accurate even tho they are condenced?
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Nobody is asking for an official post to give shiny values. That would actually be incredibly dumb bc we have a player based economy. I am aksing for a messege that says hey you have a ahiny they are valueable (show an example of how valueable they can be) and to show them the places to go to find out their value ie the forums and the value thread. Nowhere in that suggestion do i say we need mods to moderate trade nor does it say we need an official tread for shiny values. So you are attacking points i didnt make.

 

You are asking to get linked to the value discussion when you got a shiny right? That means the Devs will HAVE TO acknowledge the values given there. How fucking hard is to get it? 

 

If people is interested in something they'll look for it themself. they have enough ways of doing so. And this comes from someone who got ripped off his first OT 

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You are asking to get linked to the value discussion when you got a shiny right? That means the Devs will HAVE TO acknowledge the values given there. How fucking hard is to get it? 
 
If people is interested in something they'll look for it themself. they have enough ways of doing so. And this comes from someone who got ripped off his first OT

that post was pinned so people can do that exact thing. Doesnt mean the mods or devs have to recgonize the values given there. Why would that be a thing?
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Cause a mod pinned and made it some time ago, this works on forum where people will have to research. If the DEVS, not a mod, linked that directly in game ( linked isn't exactly the term i'm loonking for, but will go with it for now ), that becomes official. Since putting it DIRECTLY INTO THE GAME mean it's an acknowledge part of the game, and they agree with what's written there, otherwise, they would not put it there. And since it's comunity driven, i can't think the devs will add it in game. Just like, when the Tiers were unofficial, weren't added in game....

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did you read the posts on here? Are my bulletpoints not accurate even tho they are condenced?

Well just by using common sense, i can assure you that your attempt to condense 7-9 counter arguments into 1 sentence bullet points was probably not accurate.

 

 

 

Also gunthug i dont know the falicies by heart. Thats why i jokingly asked you if i got the right one. Had no time to look it up when i typed that. And the reason i posted that is bc i wanted to point out how little the opposing side had in the way of an argument. Thos bulletpoints may be condenced but they are accurate.

the part I bolded is an absolutely blatant use of the strawman fallacy

Edited by Gunthug
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Cause a mod pinned and made it some time ago, this works on forum where people will have to research. If the DEVS, not a mod, linked that directly in game ( linked isn't exactly the term i'm loonking for, but will go with it for now ), that becomes official. Since putting it DIRECTLY INTO THE GAME mean it's an acknowledge part of the game, and they agree with what's written there, otherwise, they would not put it there. And since it's comunity driven, i can't think the devs will add it in game. Just like, when the Tiers were unofficial, weren't added in game....

The only way is true is if they wrote in the value discussion thread that this is the case or posted that this is the case in the messege. But ill humor you. This problem can be fixed with the line "to get community feedback on the value of your shiny you can go here (link)" it makes it clear that you are only going there for community feedback. Edited by codylramey
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i feel someone actually want newbies to get scammed, because otherwise there would be no reason to not implement this.

Even after months spent playing, when someone told me a shiny zard was worth over 100mil i thought he was kidding me.

As a matter of fact i've seen every shiny go for a more or less fixed amount of pokeyen; it's not like we have fixed prices on shinies, but it's really easy to tell when it's too much if you're well informed.

A big part of the community won't use the forums (can't blame them  :rolleyes: ) because they just want to play the game, or maybe just because their english is bad. Would you blame them?

How long does it take to code a relatively short text message when someone finds his first shiny? and more important, how many scams would be avoided with that? 

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The only way is true is if they wrote in the value discussion thread that this is the case or posted that this is the case in the messege. But ill humor you. This problem can be fixed with the line "to get community feedback on the value of your shiny you can go here (link)" it makes it clear that you are only going there for community feedback.

 

1) No. If the Devs link a value thread in game. That's the value thread. They approve it. I don't even know why you can't get that. 

 

2) They can get feedback in game, there are chats ( Global, Channel, possibly Team, Friends and ask a Mod ) and all. There is a link to the forum, and if they need feedback they know themself, no need for you to tell them. If they wanna advice they'll ask. If they don't think they need, it's their problem. 

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