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A message to help protect newbs agaisnt preditory trading when you catch your first shiny


codylramey

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I think that when you catch your first shiny there should be a warning message explaining how rare and how sought after a lot of shinies are. And in that message there could be a warning that people will low ball new trainers for their shinies, but it is not required. Say something of the sort "some shinies are worth 1 million and some can be worth 30 million and more" or something. Then suggest "be sure to know the value of your shiny before selling it. You can get community feed back by going here" and then link the forums.

Why should this happen? Because noobs are naive and many of them get greatly ripped off by shiny traders when they catch their first shiny. And while its not the job of staff and the devs to protect them from predatory trading there is no harm in educating them on the fact that it happens and giving them a chance to get a fair deal on their shiny.

 

Sample message

[spoiler]

You catch a shiny

Professor oak comes up to you (or not)

Oak: "Ah! i see you have caught a shiny pokemon. Shiny pokemon are a rare breed of pokemon who has a slightly different color than other pokemon of the same species. These pokemon are VERY rare and highly sought after by the community. You can usually sell shiny pokemon to other trainers at a high price. Shiny pokemon can be worth 1 million yen, others can be worth up to 30 million yen, and some can be worth even more than that!!!! The value varies from species to species. If you do decided to sell your shiny pokemon I recommend you going to the pokemon trainer froums here https://forums.pokemmo.eu/or straight to the value discussion page here https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/47400-value-discussion/ to ask the community for feedback on what your shiny would be worth if you should sell it. You can also ask any of the community moderators for help if you need it. Good Luck!!!"

[/spoiler]

Edited by codylramey
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I think that when you catch your first shiny there should be a warning message explaining how rare and how sought after a lot of shinies are. And in that message there could be a warning that people w

I'm not a fan of this suggestion because I do believe that there comes a point where players have to take responsibility for themselves in game without staff intervention. I believe that there are mor

*"some shiny pokemon can be worth less than 1 million yen, while others can be worth 400+ million yen"   but other then changing that one line sounds good. sure the players are responsible not staff

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This will make players look bad ( Staff admitting that players will rip you off ). It's not the devs job to protect noobs from getting ripped off. Plus, if someone new gets a shiny, it's not like he can't ask a friend, team mate, CM online to help him...

Whether or not it makes the player base look bad is irrelivant when saying "there trainers out there who will greatly try and low ball you for your shiny" is the truth. Until that becomes untrue then the outlook of the community based on that comment is irrelevant. You can add something like "A lot of trainers will offer you a fair price but..." to mend that. I just saw on a general discussion tread where people were buying shinies off from noobs for 3 mill and selling them for 30mill. Now you cant tell me that you want to let this continue uncontested.

You are right it is not the mods or devs jobs to protect noobs from predatory trading. But there is nothing wrong with educating them on what they have when they catch a shiny. It is apart of a devs job to let their players know the mechanisms behind their content. So even a statement saying something like "Oh you found a shiny pokemon i see. Well let me tell you a little bit a bout what a shiny pokemon is. Shiny pokemon are a rare breed of pokemon that are very hard to find and very sought after within the community. They vary in values, some are worth around 1 million yen and others can be worth up to 30 mill and above!!! So be sure to know the value of your shiny before trading it away. Get feed back from friends and multiple members of the community on the value of your shiny before you trade it. You can use this forum to assets the the value of your shiny (link forum here) and try not to be too hasty in selling it, make sure you know the absolute value of your shiny before selling it. Good luck!!!" Or some paraphrased message like that. This will educate noobs on what they actually have, show them the tools to use to get the value of what they have, and do it w/o even speaking negatively about the community. Although I still believe that a warning against preditory traders should be added in there since they do exist. Edited by codylramey
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It's like it never happens that new players make mistakes....Really, there is the star, the Shiny in the name, the yellow box in the trade display...The Devs should not hold other players hands while dealing with their own stuff. 

 

In the FAQ it's written than shinies are rare, there is a link to the forum, and here there is a value discussion. If they don't read the FAQ and don't use forum, it's their own fault.

 

Making the Davs say that people will try to rip you off, altho, 100% true, isn't a good move either. They can sweet it saying that there are good people around and such, but the fact that they are saying that people will go after your good stuff low balling, ripping off new players,is still there, written black on white, like, the Devs are admitting that the player base of their own game is just like that. And guess what, that happens in any kind of game that involves trading, and as far as i'm concerned, except putting some kind of Rarity Value ( R, SR, SSR, XR for example ) there is no advice like "Be carefull people will try to rip you off your XR item cause it's XR and valuable", that should come with common sense. 

 

Even here, if someone gets a shiny, unless completly clueless about it beeing a shiny ( and again, there are enough ways to understand that a shiny is special ), he shouldn't be a genious to understand that  his shiny hols some value.

 

 

 

According to this, there should be a message saying that Everstones are actually good, because, i generally go in the Rock Tunnel PC, wait for new players to get their everstone, and i trade them some shit tier Beldum, Larvitar etc...Am i not ripping them off, even tho to a lower extend to let's say a shiny Vulpix?

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I'm not a fan of this suggestion because I do believe that there comes a point where players have to take responsibility for themselves in game without staff intervention. I believe that there are more than enough ways for someone to find out the value of something in game, if they are a forums user they can use the value discussion thread or if not they could approach a staff member in game who would point them to the right place. In real life you wouldn't put something up for sale or do a deal with someone without first finding out the value of the said object. If someone was given a Ferrari and went on to sell it for £40 the fault would lie on that individual for not waiting to do some background research on its true value. 

 

It's not even like players that dont know what shiny Pokemon are cant easily find out online. The first link for a google search of "Shiny Pokemon" is Bulbapedia's entry for it where it clearly explains that this is a rare alternately coloured variation of the species. Logic would dictate that someone should probably do a little more research into the valuation of this shiny Pokemon before they considered selling it. 

 

I also do not believe that describing a portion of our player base as "low ballers" and "predatory" is really a fair thing to do. Especially as many people have differing opinions on the values of shiny Pokemon. At times there are debates in the Value Discussion thread where a particular shiny can be valued differently by players at a difference of up to $10,000,000. I dont think that it would ever be productive of us as a community to portray our players in a negative light. 

 

That's not to say that "low balling" doesn't happen but it is something completely preventable if a player takes responsibility for themselves. If we chose to warn them about this would we also make warning messages against scammers? It would be pretty difficult to see where to draw the line. 

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Londar's Post

It's like it never happens that new players make mistakes....Really, there is the star, the Shiny in the name, the yellow box in the trade display...The Devs should not hold other players hands while dealing with their own stuff.[/quote]
This suggestion is hardly holding the players hand. Its simply educating the player on an aspect of the game which may not be inherently obvious to the player. Ofc its obvious that shinies are special but noobs dont get just how special shinies are. To a noob 3million sounds like a lot and simply saying hey that shiny could be worth way more than that and linking them to the forums could help a lot of noobs not get ripped off, bc there are a lot of noobs who know nothing about fourms. This suggestion is well within the spectrum of simply informing the player on aspects of the game w/o holding their hand.

Many dont go on a game and right away start looking for things like forums, faqs, and value discussions. It is completely understandable to not do that, i didnt do that. I didnt join the forums until months after i started the game. You have to remember this is a pokemon game, many players on here are young kids. To say "Hey you didnt click menue, look at the faq, read the forum thread until you found the value discussion, think that 3 million for your shiny pokemon when you most likely only have around 100k to your name and when you have no idea about the shiny market is a bad deal, its ur fault you got low balled" is really ridiculous. Sure the information is out there but you have to know to look for it. And this suggestion tells the player that they should look for this information when they catch a shiny. There is NOTHING wrong with that.

We can just agree to disagree on this aspect of the suggestion. Seeings as how it isnt even necessary to the core of the suggestion. You can display a message that informs the player that their shiny could be worth a lot more than they think it is, encourage them to do some research, and show them the tools to do so when they catch a shiny w/o putting down the community. So any further comments on this should reflect that aspect of the suggestion not the attacking the community part. And yes it is the devs job to inform the players of the mechanisms that go into the game, and the shiny market is one of those mechanisms.

 


Even here, if someone gets a shiny, unless completly clueless about it beeing a shiny ( and again, there are enough ways to understand that a shiny is special ), he shouldn't be a genious to understand that his shiny hols some value.

Ofc its obvious that shinies hold value. But just how much value a shiny can hold can be hard to understand to someone who is new to pokemmo. To a noob 3 mill sounds like a lot of money, but 30mill is much better. All i am asking for, at this point, is a mechanic in catching a shiny that informs the player of the possibility that his shiny could be worth more than he thinks it is and showing the player the tools to find out the value.
 

 

Noad's post

I believe that there are more than enough ways for someone to find out the value of something in game, if they are a forums user they can use the value discussion thread or if not they could approach a staff member in game who would point them to the right place.[/quote]
Im not saying that there is not enough resources for a player to find out the value of his pokemon. I am saying that noobs dont know about these resources and dont know to look for them when they catch a shiny. I am suggesting this in an attempt to get them to know that they should seek out the real value of their shiny and to show them the tools to do so. Staff can be mentioned in this dialogue when showing them the tools.

Im not sure what real life has to do with this, this is a game. I am suggesting this in order to make the game more pleasant for new people who join and to make it harder for people to feed off from their inexperience. There is a whole lot of people who try and rip noobs off on a daily bases, they are at a huge disadvantage when it comes to not letting themselves getting ripped off.

Just because you know what a shiny pokemon is doesnt mean you know what the shiny market is like. To a noob 3 million sounds like a lot. But when he gets to breeding and finds out that it will cost him about that to get a team then that 3 mill doesnt sound like so much money anymore. Hell i dont even know the shiny market... like at all. And economic markets are an interest of mine. So you cant just assume that a noob would know the market, and cant assume that they know where to go to find the information they need to get a fair price. Like i said before i wasnt a forum user for a long time after i started this game.

Like i said above we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. The purpose of this suggestion can be accomplished w/o doing this anyway so im not going to push this any further.

I would actually be all for an NPC that poses as a player that trades you and then professor oak comes up and says "Whoa it looks like you are about to do your first player trade. Well let me warn you about a few things first..." But thats neither here nor there. Being lowballed is preventable all im asking for is a message that tells the player that they should be vigilant and gives them to tools to do their research when they catch a shiny. If you just simply say "Shinys can be work 30 million and even higher" in that message it will motivate the player to do the research before accepting a 3 mill offer on their shiny slackoth.

B4 you complain about double post i tried to post in one post but it wouldnt let me.

Edited by Noad
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I think that when you catch your first shiny there should be a warning message explaining how rare and how sought after a lot of shinies are. And in that message there could be a warning that people will low ball new trainers for their shinies, but it is not required. Say something of the sort "some shinies are worth 1 million and some can be worth 30 million and more" or something. Then suggest "be sure to know the value of your shiny before selling it. You can get community feed back by going here" and then link the forums.

Why should this happen? Because noobs are naive and many of them get greatly ripped off by shiny traders when they catch their first shiny. And while its not the job of staff and the devs to protect them from predatory trading there is no harm in educating them on the fact that it happens and giving them a chance to get a fair deal on their shiny.

 

Sample message

[spoiler]

You catch a shiny

Professor oak comes up to you (or not)

Oak: "Ah! i see you have caught a shiny pokemon. Shiny pokemon are a rare breed of pokemon who has a slightly different color than other pokemon of the same species. These pokemon are VERY rare and highly sought after by the community. You can usually sell shiny pokemon to other trainers at a high price. Shiny pokemon can be worth 1 million yen, others can be worth up to 30 million yen, and some can be worth even more than that!!!! The value varies from species to species. If you do decided to sell your shiny pokemon I recommend you going to the pokemon trainer froums here https://forums.pokemmo.eu/or straight to the value discussion page here https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/47400-value-discussion/ to ask the community for feedback on what your shiny would be worth if you should sell it. You can also ask any of the community moderators for help if you need it. Good Luck!!!"

[/spoiler]

for once i agree on this most people may not but it wouldnt hurt to help them by giving message to encourage them to research it value i play tons mmo games and i see some mmo i played had warning message for rarity and encouraging them to research it

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I'm not a fan of this suggestion because I do believe that there comes a point where players have to take responsibility for themselves in game without staff intervention. I believe that there are more than enough ways for someone to find out the value of something in game, if they are a forums user they can use the value discussion thread or if not they could approach a staff member in game who would point them to the right place.

 

The way I've seen it go down, a noob is talking in channel chat, asking all the normal noob questions and what not, and they find a shiny that they post in channel chat. At that point, shiny traders who wait for that moment pounce on them, and make them an offer that would shock a noob, but be considered a supreme lowball by other shiny traders. Hard to turn down 5mil for a snorlax, because that is a shit load of money early game, but is still a lowball.

 

In real life you wouldn't put something up for sale or do a deal with someone without first finding out the value of the said object. If someone was given a Ferrari and went on to sell it for £40 the fault would lie on that individual for not waiting to do some background research on its true value. It's not even like players that dont know what shiny Pokemon are cant easily find out online. The first link for a google search of "Shiny Pokemon" is Bulbapedia's entry for it where it clearly explains that this is a rare alternately coloured variation of the species. Logic would dictate that someone should probably do a little more research into the valuation of this shiny Pokemon before they considered selling it. 

 

I feel like the ferrari comparison isn't fair. Ferrari is a brand that is recognizable far and wide, and yes, so are shinies in the pokemon community. But the thing is, this game has a very unique economy. No where else shares the monetary values we have on shinies since this isn't your normal pokemon game. Most noobs do realize shinies are rare, but have no idea the value we placed on them. Could they look it up? Yes. But if newer players were always quick to look stuff up, pokemmo wouldn't need a FAQ in -game, and channel chat wouldn't be flooded with the same 5 questions over and over. Also, the real world comparison falls apart when the player getting scammed is a kid. Your normal kid would probably sell it for cheap unless someone stopped em.

 

I also do not believe that describing a portion of our player base as "low ballers" and "predatory" is really a fair thing to do. Especially as many people have differing opinions on the values of shiny Pokemon. At times there are debates in the Value Discussion thread where a particular shiny can be valued differently by players at a difference of up to $10,000,000. I dont think that it would ever be productive of us as a community to portray our players in a negative light. 

 

From what I've looked up, the ranges are pretty tight, and a majority usually agrees on one end of the spectrum. A good amount of the newer players don't even know the forums exist though.

 

That's not to say that "low balling" doesn't happen but it is something completely preventable if a player takes responsibility for themselves. If we chose to warn them about this would we also make warning messages against scammers? It would be pretty difficult to see where to draw the line.

 

I guess it is also their fault, but at the very least, maybe a window could pop up informing them of the VD thread, so they can take a look there. Don't have to call anyone lowballers or whatever.

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I feel like the ferrari comparison isn't fair. Ferrari is a brand that is recognizable far and wide, and yes, so are shinies in the pokemon community. But the thing is, this game has a very unique economy. No where else shares the monetary values we have on shinies since this isn't your normal pokemon game. Most noobs do realize shinies are rare, but have no idea the value we placed on them. Could they look it up? Yes. But if newer players were always quick to look stuff up, pokemmo wouldn't need a FAQ in -game, and channel chat wouldn't be flooded with the same 5 questions over and over. Also, the real world comparison falls apart when the player getting scammed is a kid. Your normal kid would probably sell it for cheap unless someone stopped em.

 

 

It's actually a very fair comparison. I would also like to point out that the FAQ exists so that new players do not have to search far and wide for an answer to a common question. Very few online games operate without one in some shape or form, with the exception of Console games. However the fact is that while we do have the Value Discussion, the overall valuation of a Pokemon, be it shiny or not, lies with the person who has it in their possession. To complicate matters further you will have no guarantee that they will read the message and to make things even more complicated, there would have to be some sort of definition of what is considered predatory trading, which places us into the realm of potentially being dragged into a trade dispute. You also point out that younger players will almost always sell cheaper unless someone stops them, so this suggestion itself really doesn't do any good to begin with.

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It's actually a very fair comparison. I would also like to point out that the FAQ exists so that new players do not have to search far and wide for an answer to a common question. Very few online games operate without one in some shape or form, with the exception of Console games. However the fact is that while we do have the Value Discussion, the overall valuation of a Pokemon, be it shiny or not, lies with the person who has it in their possession. To complicate matters further you will have no guarantee that they will read the message and to make things even more complicated, there would have to be some sort of definition of what is considered predatory trading, which places us into the realm of potentially being dragged into a trade dispute. You also point out that younger players will almost always sell cheaper unless someone stops them, so this suggestion itself really doesn't do any good to begin with.

 

If the message pops up when they catch it, that was the in game equivalent to someone stopping them. Cody mentioned it, and I can't think of anything else. The message is just another prevention measure. Of course it's their fault at the end of it, but it's just another line of defense to stop them.

 

The overall valuation of anything lies with the person who has it in their possession, doesn't really change the topic at hand.

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If the message pops up when they catch it, that was the in game equivalent to someone stopping them. Cody mentioned it, and I can't think of anything else. The message is just another prevention measure. Of course it's their fault at the end of it, but it's just another line of defense to stop them.

 

The overall valuation of anything lies with the person who has it in their possession, doesn't really change the topic at hand.

If the message pops up all it does it tell them, "Hey, our playerbase is full of jerks who may try to rip you off," which isn't fair to those who don't engage in this behavior in the first place. Furthermore, it will do nothing to stop them because they still confirm three times that they want to trade for a certain price. In the end the trade is on them, as you stated. This message will not do them any good at all.

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If the message pops up all it does it tell them, "Hey, our playerbase is full of jerks who may try to rip you off," which isn't fair to those who don't engage in this behavior in the first place. Furthermore, it will do nothing to stop them because they still confirm three times that they want to trade for a certain price. In the end the trade is on them, as you stated. This message will not do them any good at all.

 

but at the very least, maybe a window could pop up informing them of the VD thread, so they can take a look there. Don't have to call anyone lowballers or whatever.

 

This is all I think the message should say, a link to VD and maybe an explanation of what it's for. How does that say  "Hey, our playerbase is full of jerks who may try to rip you off,"

Edited by Champlooo
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I wrote a really long post last night but ended up not posting it because I didn't want to start any arguments before I went to bed.  A short portion about it said 'this is not a solution, but merely makes the problem apparent, which would probably still decrease the amount of new players who get scammed'. 
A later portion said this: (
A real solution to this problem would be a Grand Exchange-ish trading system.  If you're unfamiliar with Runescape, the GE is a trading post where users can sell/buy items for whatever price they choose through it.  There is however a screen that tells you the average buy/sell price of the item in question.  A system like this would be perfect, because then users would be able to see how much Shiny X is averaging for at the time they catch it.  )

I still agree that something could be done to reduce scamming, and this certainly might help it. 
One of the most useful things someone can have is knowledge.  A screen telling a user where they can research the price of shinies would be useful, and DS has a way of wording things so I'm sure that he could make it sound more like 'We care about you and want you to know what you're getting into' rather than 'Our playerbase is shit and they'll scam you at every turn'.

I'm indecisive about wether or not a link to VD would be acceptable though.  Given it's player run and has just as much oppurtunity for scamming as in game, I don't think treating it as if it were an official source is a good idea.  Alternatively you could just link "www.forums.pokemmo.eu".
In the end the only real solution I can see to this is adding some kind of average buy/sell price listing, which would require the implementation of some form of trading hub.

Originally I was against this idea, but now I think I'm neutral on it(Not that my opinion matters much).  Other games have warning screens, some that come to mind are all from Runescape: The warning when dropping a valuable item, a warning is shown when crossing into a PVP area and even the trade screens in certain versions of Runescape have a slight hint to show if you're making a fair trade(I remember in Runescape at some point if you were trading two items/cash, it would check the GE price of the items and compare them.  If you were getting the short end of the bargain iirc the text would turn red). 
A message box that appears when recieving a shiny OT wouldn't be that much different, and if it's worded correctly it might give the player the impression of 'Wow the staff genuinely care about me and want me to know where I can go to check the price of my shiny" rather than, as previously mentioned, the impression that our community will scam you every chance they get.

>inb4 hurr you make all your arguments with "Make this more like Runescape"
I lack originality or much knowledge on game design, so the best I can do is say "Hey that works, lets modify that and make it work here!"
 

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It's actually a very fair comparison. I would also like to point out that the FAQ exists so that new players do not have to search far and wide for an answer to a common question. Very few online games operate without one in some shape or form, with the exception of Console games. However the fact is that while we do have the Value Discussion, the overall valuation of a Pokemon, be it shiny or not, lies with the person who has it in their possession. To complicate matters further you will have no guarantee that they will read the message and to make things even more complicated, there would have to be some sort of definition of what is considered predatory trading, which places us into the realm of potentially being dragged into a trade dispute. You also point out that younger players will almost always sell cheaper unless someone stops them, so this suggestion itself really doesn't do any good to begin with.

The faq exsist but very few read it. Also it doesnt accomplish everything this suggestin does. It doesnt put the tools in their face when they need it, after catching a shiny why would you think to open a faq? Especially when youve got ppl lying to you about the shiny in order to rip you off from it. The faq also doesnt suggest that they SHOULD check the value of the shiny befor selling.

If the player doesnt read the messege when it is put in their face THEN it their fault. The way it is now many ppl dont know the tools exsist and dont know they even ahould be looking for it. My suggestion changes this.

We dont need to define preditory trading bc im not suggestiong we punish this. Im simply suggesting we add a tool that more reliably inform noobs of what they have when they catch a shiny and to show them to the tools to get its value.

As for this "the value is in the hands of the beholder" or "they agreed to the price" argument. Do you think that a noob would agree to a 3 mill price for his 30 mill shiny if he knew the real value of that shiny? The answer is know. I simply want to help inform noobs. That is all.

I love the idea of adding an average price that something sells for on w/e G/E thing we get in pokemmo. We still would need the message tho as that would just be another tool that the noob may or may not know about. One thing that the message does that simply adding tools dont is it gives the player a reason to look for these tools. Otherwise they think that the lowball is a lot of money when it is not. In essence ur right, simply adding a link to the value discussion isnt enough. That is why in my sample messege i worte out the ranges in which shinies can be valued. When they see that their shiny could be worht 30mill plus they arent gonna settle for 3 mill until they know that that is what it is worth. Edited by codylramey
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If the player doesnt read the messege when it is put in their face THEN it their fault. The way it is now many ppl dont know the tools exsist and dont know they even ahould be looking for it. My suggestion changes this.

 

Everything you are saying gets invalidated by that one line. They still have to choose whether or not they want that price for their shiny. It's their shiny to trade regardless of whether or not you think that they are getting a fair value for it. Placing a message in their face that gives the impression that our playerbase is full of players who will lowball them or try to rip them off is not the right way to go about anything at all. In fact this message will give the impression that these players are in a much larger percentage than they really are, which is not the impression to give players. Think about it from a new player point of view getting into a game and catching something rare and getting this message. Would you feel comfortable playing that game when the developers have basically said, "Yeah, our playerbase is full of jerks and scam artists"?

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Everything you are saying gets invalidated by that one line. They still have to choose whether or not they want that price for their shiny. It's their shiny to trade regardless of whether or not you think that they are getting a fair value for it. Placing a message in their face that gives the impression that our playerbase is full of players who will lowball them or try to rip them off is not the right way to go about anything at all. In fact this message will give the impression that these players are in a much larger percentage than they really are, which is not the impression to give players. Think about it from a new player point of view getting into a game and catching something rare and getting this message. Would you feel comfortable playing that game when the developers have basically said, "Yeah, our playerbase is full of jerks and scam artists"?

 

But we're only trying to help them make a more informed choice. Some of them, after playing the game a bit more, do regret selling their shiny for the price they did. I still don't see how putting a message in their way is saying the playerbase is full of jerks and scam artists.

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But we're only trying to help them make a more informed choice. Some of them, after playing the game a bit more, do regret selling their shiny for the price they did. I still don't see how putting a message in their way is saying the playerbase is full of jerks and scam artists.

 

That's the thing, you keep saying that the decision is on them in the end. However you are proposing throwing up another dialog that they are more likely not going to read at all just to put these tools in their face. If they want the tools to make an informed decision they will seek them out. Putting them in their face, especially in a dialog, is not the right way to go about it. Most players even admit to not even reading dialogs during the course of playing the game. So what is more likely going to happen is they're going to wonder why some random dialog is popping up after they caught a Pokemon and just Z right through it without reading a word. If we were to do this for shiny Pokemon, what's to say someone isn't getting lowballed on a really good comp? Should we just start popping up dialogs about comps when a really good comp is caught? What about good breeders? Where do we draw the line? In the end the valuation is based on the player and what they are willing to sell for.

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If we were to do this for shiny Pokemon, what's to say someone isn't getting lowballed on a really good comp? Should we just start popping up dialogs about comps when a really good comp is caught? What about good breeders? Where do we draw the line? In the end the valuation is based on the player and what they are willing to sell for.

 

I don't think that slippery slope argument really works. Buying/selling wild comps and shinies are 2 completely different ball games.

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I don't think that slippery slope argument really works. Buying/selling wild comps and shinies are 2 completely different ball games.

He's got a point. 
A comp is something you work for, and their actual price is very rarely higher than 700k, if even that.  To get a comp worth a signifigant amount of money a player has to know a bit about competitive play(Movesets, Nature etc.) as well as breeding, which means most new players won't be able to produce a 700k comp.  The users who would make a comp worth that kind of money will likely be experienced enough to know that they should check what the price of their item is before selling it, or they might already know what it's worth.   (didn't realize the argument was about wild comps only)

Also, in terms of wild caught comps: Unless you catch a 6x31 perfect natured comp(An exageration, I know)  that doesn't require any eggmoves, it's likely not even going to be worth more than 400-500k, and even then would only really be used as a breeder.  I'm sure it's statistically less likely to catch a perfect wildcaught comp, which species doesn't require egg moves(Beldum, for example) than to catch a shiny charmander, and anything less than perfect will be worth like 600-700k at most.

A shiny however is something that shows up, and their value can be greater than 50m.  They aren't things that players work for in the same sense that you work for a comp.  A player fresh out of pallet can stumble upon a shiny, and have no clue that it's rare or valuable.  They might just think because they got one the shiny rate had been increased substantially from the main games.  This is what leads to scamming: Players not knowing any better.
I think the real argument here is that a new player can go out and find a shiny charmander, then end up selling it for 10k because some shiny trader tricked them into thinking it was worth less than it actually is.  Simply saying "It's the players resposibility to look up the price of their Pokemon" isn't a good way of looking at this.  The type of players this suggestion is aimed at are ones who probably don't even know we have forums.  Telling them where they can go for information would not have negative effects as far as I can see(Assuming it wasn't worded poorly), and while the argument "It makes our community look like they're all scammers" can be true, but if worded correctly it can also show that our staff geniunely care about the players and want to make sure the players know where to go to get information.
Wether or not this is worth dedicating some of Desu's time to, that's another question entirely. 


Edit:
I still stand by what I said earlier, a trading system could fix this problem entirely and this warning dialog would be almost uneccessary.  However my above argument was made only taking the OPs suggestion into account so that I didn't go too far off topic.

Edit2:
I like OPs idea of Oak giving you the message, however like 1% of our playerbase actually reads those messages, and with the rush that catching a shiny would cause I don't think anyone would read it. 
I think a better option would be a popup dialog, a dialog box that goes over the text box(with an OK button to close), or a system message displayed in the chat box. 
The message should also be short, sweet and to the point.  Get the information you want to convey out there.  Not to say OPs message wasn't well written, it was, just don't expect the target audience of this suggestion to slow down and read that much when they've got a rush from finding something they'd never seen before.

Edited by DaftKitteh
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A shiny however is something that shows up, and their value can be greater than 50m.  They aren't things that players work for in the same sense that you work for a comp.  A player fresh out of pallet can stumble upon a shiny, and have no clue that it's rare or valuable.  They might just think because they got one the shiny rate had been increased substantially from the main games.  This is what leads to scamming: Players not knowing any better.
I think the real argument here is that a new player can go out and find a shiny charmander, then end up selling it for 10k because some shiny trader tricked them into thinking it was worth less than it actually is.  Simply saying "It's the players resposibility to look up the price of their Pokemon" isn't a good way of looking at this.  The type of players this suggestion is aimed at are ones who probably don't even know we have forums.  Telling them where they can go for information would not have negative effects as far as I can see(Assuming it wasn't worded poorly), and while the argument "It makes our community look like they're all scammers" can be true, but if worded correctly it can also show that our staff geniunely care about the players and want to make sure the players know where to go to get information.
Wether or not this is worth dedicating some of Desu's time to, that's another question entirely.

 

If worded differently it still comes across wrong. There is a difference between showing genuine concern and basically telling players that we don't think they will look for certain tools. This one falls to the latter because it's forcing the tools into their face. At the end of the day, it is the player's responsibility to look up the value of their Pokemon, if they indeed care about getting what is viewed as a fair price for it. While you may think that's a bad way to look at things, that is reality. We do not moderate trade disputes at all. Trades are the responsibility of the players involved. If a player agrees to sell a shiny for less than what is listed in Value Discussion, then that is their choice and they have to live with it. No one is forcing them to click each of the 3 confirmations that exist to confirm a trade.

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Everything you are saying gets invalidated by that one line. They still have to choose whether or not they want that price for their shiny. It's their shiny to trade regardless of whether or not you think that they are getting a fair value for it. Placing a message in their face that gives the impression that our playerbase is full of players who will lowball them or try to rip them off is not the right way to go about anything at all. In fact this message will give the impression that these players are in a much larger percentage than they really are, which is not the impression to give players. Think about it from a new player point of view getting into a game and catching something rare and getting this message. Would you feel comfortable playing that game when the developers have basically said, "Yeah, our playerbase is full of jerks and scam artists"?

Yes they choose to do the trade because they think its a good deal, it doesnt change the fact that its not. If they were informed of the value of their shiny do you honestly think they would sell if for the prices they do? Ill give you a hint... the answer is no.

 

Did you read my sample message? What part of that message makes the community look bad? Its simply informative. How is everything i say invalidated by that line. Theres a difference in saying "if you get lowballed its your fault" when the info you need is thrown in your face the moment you may need it and you ignore it than when the info you may need to prevent getting lowballed is on a forum that a noob most likely never goes to and may even not know exists.

 

 

That's the thing, you keep saying that the decision is on them in the end. However you are proposing throwing up another dialog that they are more likely not going to read at all just to put these tools in their face. If they want the tools to make an informed decision they will seek them out. Putting them in their face, especially in a dialog, is not the right way to go about it. Most players even admit to not even reading dialogs during the course of playing the game. So what is more likely going to happen is they're going to wonder why some random dialog is popping up after they caught a Pokemon and just Z right through it without reading a word. If we were to do this for shiny Pokemon, what's to say someone isn't getting lowballed on a really good comp? Should we just start popping up dialogs about comps when a really good comp is caught? What about good breeders? Where do we draw the line? In the end the valuation is based on the player and what they are willing to sell for.

I would be willing to bet that most people would read the dialogue. If you go on with business as usual and suddenly catch an off colored poke THEN a dialogue, maybe even prof. oak, appears, its going to catch your attention because its different than most things that happens in the game. And if they dont read it then the devs can honestly say they did all they can do and you didnt listen.

 

The getting scammed from a shiny and getting scammed for a comp comparison is on par with the scamming of the everstone comparison made earlier. The difference is in the millions of dollars. 

 

 

If worded differently it still comes across wrong. There is a difference between showing genuine concern and basically telling players that we don't think they will look for certain tools. This one falls to the latter because it's forcing the tools into their face. At the end of the day, it is the player's responsibility to look up the value of their Pokemon, if they indeed care about getting what is viewed as a fair price for it. While you may think that's a bad way to look at things, that is reality. We do not moderate trade disputes at all. Trades are the responsibility of the players involved. If a player agrees to sell a shiny for less than what is listed in Value Discussion, then that is their choice and they have to live with it. No one is forcing them to click each of the 3 confirmations that exist to confirm a trade.

It totally is the players responsibility to look for the value of their pokes. And I am asking that the devs put in a simple script to tell them that it may be a good idea to do so, because a lot of noobs cant even imagine how much some shinies can be worth, and show them the tools to do so. The bolded statement isnt a concern to this thread bc no one is asking mods to moderate trade disputes. Can i get a moderator to delete that part plz.

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*"some shiny pokemon can be worth less than 1 million yen, while others can be worth 400+ million yen"

 

but other then changing that one line sounds good. sure the players are responsible not staff or anyone else. however it is very simple to implement, and has literally no negatives other then mod time and the minor possibility of bugs.

 

isnt the relatively small amount of mod time to add one conditional pop up worth the theoretical idiots/new people not getting ripped off? 

 

regardless of responsibility, only good can come form adding it and the negatives are minor.

 

if this hasnt convinced you, read the annoying/humorous warning labels elsewhere 

[spoiler]

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warning_label.jpg

Surgeon_General_s_warning_cigarettes.jpg

[/spoiler]

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