Add a section in the PokeDex underneath NU to hold useless Pokemon.

[DaftKitteh]

I did a brief search using the term "NU tier", and didn't see anything related to this but it's been on my mind for a while.

Currently when a user(this is going off of my experience mostly) wants to check what's in a tier they open the PokeDex and look through that tiers section.  This tool is invaluable because it allows you to see what you're up against in the tier you choose to play.  For NU however this is really difficult due to the excessive amount of trash in the tier list. 

 

Our Ubers, OU and UU tier are all pretty small only really consisting of 4 rows of Pokemon or less and it allows you to easily see what's in the tier.  Due to the nature of the NU tier it's expected that it have a bunch of 'junk' in it, however I think the 'junkiest of the junk' should be moved to a lower tier just so that one can more conveniently see what the NU tier consists of. 
 

By 'junkiest of the junk' I mean things such as Magikarp, Caterpie, Weedle etc.  Things that have literally no chance of being useful.  This does however present a problem: How to sort the junkiest junk from the viable junk.
A few possible solutions:

1. NFE Tier:
   A tier that holds all the 'Not Fully Evolved' Pokemon.  This presents a problem though, because some NFE Pokemon such as Diglett are viable in the tier. 
2. A lower tier decided by the NU Tier Council:
   While it's ridiculous to add an extra tier that needs maintenance, this 'Unusable' or 'Really Bad Tier' or some other name wouldn't really require much maintanence.  Once Pokemon like Magikarp are removed from NU and placed here, they will likely never need to be moved back into NU.  Some other Pokemon may be borderline in the sense that they /can/ be used in NU semi-effectively, but aren't really common or widely accepted as viable, and those should probably be left in NU

Pros of this system:
- Improves the overall polish of the PokeDex
- Allows players to more easily see what's used in NU, and as such makes teambuilding easier.

Cons:
- Takes time to sort out
- Adding another tier
- I'll have to accept that Magikarp literally is trash

Edit:
NOTE: I have absolutely no experience with the NU tier, so this list is mainly just to represent how much stuff needs to be cleaned before checking the dex becomes a viable method of researching a tier.  I also left a handful out because I didn't have their dex entries.
[spoiler] 

Bulbasaur
Ivysaur
Charmander
Charmeleon
Squirtle
Warturtle
Caterpie
Metapod
Weedle
Kakuna
Pidgey(sorry rache)
Ratatta
Spearow
Ekans
Sandslash
Nidoran M/Nidoran F  
Nidorina/nidorino
Clefairy
Vulpix
Jigglypuff
Psyduck
Mankey
Growlithe
Poliwag
Poliwhirl(?)
Abra
Machop
Dodrio
Seel
Grimer
Shellder
Ghastly
Onix(?)
Drowzee
Krabby
Voltorb
Exeggutor
Cubone
Weezing
Rhyhorn
Horsea
Goldeen  
Staryu
Magikarp(;-;7)
Eevee
Omastar
Kabuto
Sentret
Hoothoot
Ledyba
Spinark
Chinchou
Cleffa
Igglybuff
Togepi
Natu
Mareep
Flaaffy
Wooper
Unknown
Pineco
Snubbul
Teddyursa
Slugma
Swinub
Remoraid
Houndour
Larvitar
Pupitar
Treecko
Grovyle
Torchic
Combusken
Mudkip
Marshtomp
Poochyna
Zigzagoon
Wurmple
Silcoon
Lotad
Lombre
Seedot
Nuzleaf
Taillow
Wingull
Ralts
Kirlia
Surskit
Shroomish
Slakoth
Vigoroth
Nincada
Whismur
Loudred
Makuhita
Azuril
Skitty
Aron
Lairon
Elektrike
Volbeat
Gulpin
Carvanah
Waimer
Numel
Spoink
Vibrava (didn't include trapinch because it's viable iirc)
Cacnea
Swablu
Barboach
Corphish
Baltoy
Feebas
Shuppet
Snorunt
Spheal
Sealo
Bagon
Shelgon(?)
Beldum
Metang

[/spoiler]

Edited September 10, 2015 by DaftKitteh

[KaynineXL]

Every time I'm trying to figure out what can take on what in the NU tier I go to NU in the Pokedex only to realize it's full of crap so it's impossible..

 

This would be so helpful.

[Inarin]

You mean like Showdown's PU - Partially Used?

Could be convenient in the Dex.

[FlareBlitzz]

Little Cup Tier?

[BenGorgon]

Actually would be more like RU (Rarely Used) and NU (Never Used), where RU is what our current NU is, and NU is truely the never used pokemon. 

 

 

RU Description

[Spoiler] RarelyUsed, or RU, is the tier that contains all of the Pokémon that are just short of UU in terms of the required usage amount, which equates to a 50% chance of encountering the Pokémon in UU in 20 battles. These Pokémon can still be used in UU, and a lot of them are actually quite powerful as well, but they simply aren't used enough for them to change their tier placement. [/Spoiler]

 

Would be very helpful imo, and add more diversity to play styles and tiers. 

[DaftKitteh]

Actually would be more like RU (Rarely Used) and NU (Never Used), where RU is what our current NU is, and NU is truely the never used pokemon. 

 

 

RU Description

[Spoiler] RarelyUsed, or RU, is the tier that contains all of the Pokémon that are just short of UU in terms of the required usage amount, which equates to a 50% chance of encountering the Pokémon in UU in 20 battles. These Pokémon can still be used in UU, and a lot of them are actually quite powerful as well, but they simply aren't used enough for them to change their tier placement. [/Spoiler]

 

Would be very helpful imo, and add more diversity to play styles and tiers. 

RU is arguably better than calling it the 'Trash Tier' or something similar.
Although I hate when names of things get changed(because people will be saying 'NU' when in actuality they mean 'RU' for a while after the change), it's probably the best way to go about it. 

Edit:
Little Cup and Partially Used also sound pretty good.  Pros of those would be that the current NU tier wouldn't have to have it's name changed.

Edited September 10, 2015 by DaftKitteh

[KaynineXL]

Or just call it 'Other'?

 

All Tiers

Ubers

Over used

Under Used

Never Used

Other

[DrCraig]

I can't see any good coming out of a NFE trash poke tier. I dont think it is appropriate to want a tier just so we can show people what the good stuff in NU is in the dex either. I dont think you need the pokedex to hold your hand and tell you 'this is what is good cus its in the tier.' We have enough tools on the forum and game to figure that shit out. I also don't think we need another tier in general. We do not need a new tier to worry about when we cannot tame our current, main, 3. Another tier entails finding another 3 able bodied tier council members who are actually willing. Regarding officials, this would entail holding a load of officials to gather usage from all tiers. The usage from this new garbage tier, anyway, would not be that accurate in my opinion. With this small playerbase, I dont know how we can assume by adding another tier that we can gain a strong playerbase that provide data that is actually meaningful also.

 

tl;dr we dont need more tiers

 

#NULivesDontMatter

 

 

Would be very helpful imo, and add more diversity to play styles and tiers. 

No

[KaynineXL]

I can't see any good coming out of a NFE trash poke tier. I dont think it is appropriate to want a tier just so we can show people what the good stuff in NU is in the dex either. I dont think you need the pokedex to hold your hand and tell you 'this is what is good cus its in the tier.' We have enough tools on the forum and game to figure that shit out. I also don't think we need another tier in general. We do not need a new tier to worry about when we cannot tame our current, main, 3. Another tier entails finding another 3 able bodied tier council members who are actually willing. Regarding officials, this would entail holding a load of officials to gather usage from all tiers. The usage from this new garbage tier, anyway, would not be that accurate in my opinion. With this small playerbase, I dont know how we can assume by adding another tier that we can gain a strong playerbase that provide data that is actually meaningful also.

 

tl;dr we dont need more tiers

 

#NULivesDontMatter

 

 

No

We're not wanting to make a new tier.(hence why I suggested just call it other)

When you say show people what the good stuff is in NU... Like we're taking out the absolute obvious trash like Caterpies, Charmander, Pidgeys, Spearow. We ain't giving away what's good and bad.. We're just pointing out what's obvious and annoying.

[DaftKitteh]

I can't see any good coming out of a NFE trash poke tier. I dont think it is appropriate to want a tier just so we can show people what the good stuff in NU is in the dex either. I dont think you need the pokedex to hold your hand and tell you 'this is what is good cus its in the tier.' We have enough tools on the forum and game to figure that shit out. I also don't think we need another tier in general. We do not need a new tier to worry about when we cannot tame our current, main, 3. Another tier entails finding another 3 able bodied tier council members who are actually willing. Regarding officials, this would entail holding a load of officials to gather usage from all tiers. The usage from this new garbage tier, anyway, would not be that accurate in my opinion. With this small playerbase, I dont know how we can assume by adding another tier that we can gain a strong playerbase that provide data that is actually meaningful also.

 

tl;dr we dont need more tiers

 

#NULivesDontMatter

 

 

No

I probably should have defined what I meant by 'Trash Tier'

What I suggest isn't an actual tier, but something similar to Ubers. 
This tier wouldn't need to be balanced, it would only exist to make the currently existing NU tier clearer. 
This new tier would not be there so that the NU tier shows 'what's good', but rather to get rid of the 'what's worthless' from the tier so that the players have an easier time deciding for themselves 'what's good'.  Sifting through 100 useless Pokemon in the dex is annoying, and it makes the tier look unpolished and like the NU tier is the garbage can of our tiers.
As stated, once the shit Pokemon like Magikarp are out of NU this new 'Trash Tier' would not need any more maintenance(Unless weedle-tier pokemon suddenly become viable).

Edit:
Also, at some point somebody is going to want to host a PU, new NU, Little Cup or whatever the tier is called tournament.  It would be a fun gimmick, but I agree with you: It's not worth the effort it'd take to balance it. 
The main idea here is to just put a garbage can on the bottom so that our PokeDex looks polished and is a viable source of information on Competitive Tiers.  Our OU and UU tiers are able to be used this way, and are invaluable tools when teambuilding. 
Readily available information in game is something that our game could use more of.
 

Edited September 10, 2015 by DaftKitteh

[Kizhaz]

I'm all for it, but what do we classify as "other" and as NU. You could have it as a NFE list but then pokemon like haunter are trapped in it when they are quite viable in the tier

 

Perhaps I should read the full OP before posting

Edited September 10, 2015 by Kizhaz

[BenGorgon]

I probably should have defined what I meant by 'Trash Tier'

What I suggest isn't an actual tier, but something similar to Ubers. 
This tier wouldn't need to be balanced, it would only exist to make the currently existing NU tier clearer. 
This new tier would not be there so that the NU tier shows 'what's good', but rather to get rid of the 'what's worthless' from the tier so that the players have an easier time deciding for themselves 'what's good'.  Sifting through 100 useless Pokemon in the dex is annoying, and it makes the tier look unpolished and like the NU tier is the garbage can of our tiers.
As stated, once the shit Pokemon like Magikarp are out of NU this new 'Trash Tier' would not need any more maintenance(Unless weedle-tier pokemon suddenly become viable).
 

 

If that is the case, I disagree with the idea. A tier where the low usage NU pokemon end up? I like that, as it adds more options for varied styles of play, and the inclusion of niche pokemon that would only see the light of day occasionally. (LF Tier where Persian is viable)

 

That being said, I do agree with DrCraig that a "tier" designed simply to eek out what pokemon are not usable in NU would be unnecessary hand holding. As mentioned, there are plenty of resources avalible to any player to find what is in high usage and what every usable pokemon in the tier can do. 

 

Edit: This would also encourage the usage fallacy, where especially new players consider any poke not high on the usage table to complete crap.

Edited September 10, 2015 by BenGorgon

[DrCraig]

I probably should have defined what I meant by 'Trash Tier'

What I suggest isn't an actual tier, but something similar to Ubers. 
This tier wouldn't need to be balanced, it would only exist to make the currently existing NU tier clearer. 
This new tier would not be there so that the NU tier shows 'what's good', but rather to get rid of the 'what's worthless' from the tier so that the players have an easier time deciding for themselves 'what's good'.  Sifting through 100 useless Pokemon in the dex is annoying, and it makes the tier look unpolished and like the NU tier is the garbage can of our tiers.
As stated, once the shit Pokemon like Magikarp are out of NU this new 'Trash Tier' would not need any more maintenance(Unless weedle-tier pokemon suddenly become viable).

Edit:
Also, at some point somebody is going to want to host a PU, new NU, Little Cup or whatever the tier is called tournament.  It would be a fun gimmick, but I agree with you: It's not worth the effort it'd take to balance it. 
The main issue here is to just put a garbage can on the bottom so that our PokeDex looks polished and is a viable source of information on Competitive Tiers.
 

If it is not going to be a tier, let's stop calling it a tier then. If it is a gimmick tier labeled with a name, it is still a tier. Ubers is still a tier. Anywho, if a player wants to not have to sift through shit while looking at their desk they can easily access the NU viability thread. There is no way to make an arbitrary label for a pokemon as not being good enough to be in the NU dex without tiering. This requires tiering. This requires useless energy spent to fix a problem which is not even..problematic. Making this arbitrary line between the good shit and bad shit requires a new tier to be made below NU regardless of what you want to call it. Can be a cult, league, squad, gang, other, NFE garbage can, or whatever you want it to be called but it will still be a tier. It's not worth it. Viability threads yo.

 

[spoiler]damn i should update mine yo[/spoiler]

Edited September 10, 2015 by DrCraig

[KaynineXL]

I'm all for it, but what do we classify as "other" and as NU. You could have it as a NFE list but then pokemon like haunter are trapped in it when they are quite viable in the tier

 

Perhaps I should read the full OP before posting

Well, considering Gengar is in Ubers, Haunter is sorta the fully evolved version possible in NU?

 

I just want a list like this.

Edited September 10, 2015 by KaynineXL

[DrCraig]

I just want a list like this.

You have the usage thread lists, usage statistics, and a viability thread to choose from.

[KaynineXL]

You have the usage thread lists, usage statistics, and a viability thread to choose from.

That means I need to go on the forums when I want to quickly search something. Let's not forget a lot of people don't use forums.

[DaftKitteh]

If that is the case, I disagree with the idea. A tier where the low usage NU pokemon end up? I like that, as it adds more options for varied styles of play, and the inclusion of niche pokemon that would only see the light of day occasionally. (LF Tier where Persian is viable)

 

That being said, I do agree with DrCraig that a "tier" designed simply to eek out what pokemon are not usable in NU would be unnecessary hand holding. As mentioned, there are plenty of resources avalible to any player to find what is in high usage and what every usable pokemon in the tier can do. 

 

Edit: This would also encourage the usage fallacy, where especially new players consider any poke not high on the usage table to complete crap.

I agree that a tier where the 'lower than NU' Pokemon are viable would be cool, but wouldn't be feasible for the reasons Craig explained.

The issue for me is that all of this

[spoiler] 

Bulbasaur
Ivysaur
Charmander
Charmeleon
Squirtle
Warturtle
Caterpie
Metapod
Weedle
Kakuna
Pidgey(sorry rache)
Ratatta
Spearow
Ekans
Sandslash
Nidoran M/Nidoran F  
Nidorina/nidorino
Clefairy
Vulpix
Jigglypuff
Psyduck
Mankey
Growlithe
Poliwag
Poliwhirl(?)
Abra
Machop
Dodrio
Seel
Grimer
Shellder
Ghastly
Onix(?)
Drowzee
Krabby
Voltorb
Exeggutor
Cubone
Weezing
Rhyhorn
Horsea
Goldeen  
Staryu
Magikarp(;-;7)
Eevee
Omastar
Kabuto
Sentret
Hoothoot
Ledyba
Spinark
Chinchou
Cleffa
Igglybuff
Togepi
Natu
Mareep
Flaaffy
Wooper
Unknown
Pineco
Snubbul
Teddyursa
Slugma
Swinub
Remoraid
Houndour
Larvitar
Pupitar
Treecko
Grovyle
Torchic
Combusken
Mudkip
Marshtomp
Poochyna
Zigzagoon
Wurmple
Silcoon
Lotad
Lombre
Seedot
Nuzleaf
Taillow
Wingull
Ralts
Kirlia
Surskit
Shroomish
Slakoth
Vigoroth
Nincada
Whismur
Loudred
Makuhita
Azuril
Skitty
Aron
Lairon
Elektrike
Volbeat
Gulpin
Carvanah
Waimer
Numel
Spoink
Vibrava (didn't include trapinch because it's viable iirc)
Cacnea
Swablu
Barboach
Corphish
Baltoy
Feebas
Shuppet
Snorunt
Spheal
Sealo
Bagon
Shelgon(?)
Beldum
Metang

[/spoiler]

 

is in our NU tier. 
These Pokemon make a useful tool in game completely useless, and they provide no benefit. 
Aside from the 30 minutes it takes for Noad and Darkshade the tier council to sit down and say (This has 0% usage and does nothing for the tier), there is no downside to removing these Pokemon from the NU tier.
 

Edited September 10, 2015 by DaftKitteh

[KaynineXL]

I agree that a tier where the 'lower than NU' Pokemon are viable would be cool, but wouldn't be feasible for the reasons Craig explained.

The issue for me is that all of this

[spoiler] 

Bulbasaur
Ivysaur
Charmander
Charmeleon
Squirtle
Warturtle
Caterpie
Metapod
Weedle
Kakuna
Pidgey(sorry rache)
Ratatta
Spearow
Ekans
Sandslash
Nidoran M/Nidoran F  
Nidorina/nidorino
Clefairy
Vulpix
Jigglypuff
Psyduck
Mankey
Growlithe
Poliwag
Poliwhirl(?)
Abra
Machop
Dodrio
Seel
Grimer
Shellder
Ghastly
Onix(?)
Drowzee
Krabby
Voltorb
Exeggutor
Cubone
Weezing
Rhyhorn
Horsea
Goldeen  
Staryu
Magikarp(;-;7)
Eevee
Omastar
Kabuto
Sentret
Hoothoot
Ledyba
Spinark
Chinchou
Cleffa
Igglybuff
Togepi
Natu
Mareep
Flaaffy
Wooper
Unknown
Pineco
Snubbul
Teddyursa
Slugma
Swinub
Remoraid
Houndour
Larvitar
Pupitar
Treecko
Grovyle
Torchic
Combusken
Mudkip
Marshtomp
Poochyna
Zigzagoon
Wurmple
Silcoon
Lotad
Lombre
Seedot
Nuzleaf
Taillow
Wingull
Ralts
Kirlia
Surskit
Shroomish
Slakoth
Vigoroth
Nincada
Whismur
Loudred
Makuhita
Azuril
Skitty
Aron
Lairon
Elektrike
Volbeat
Gulpin
Carvanah
Waimer
Numel
Spoink
Vibrava (didn't include trapinch because it's viable iirc)
Cacnea
Swablu
Barboach
Corphish
Baltoy
Feebas
Shuppet
Snorunt
Spheal
Sealo
Bagon
Shelgon(?)
Beldum
Metang

[/spoiler]

 

is in our NU tier. 
These Pokemon make a useful tool in game completely useless, and they provide no benefit. 
Aside from the 30 minutes it takes for Noad and Darkshade the tier council to sit down and say (This has 0% usage and does nothing for the tier), there is no downside to removing these Pokemon from the NU tier.
 

Shelgon wouldn't be put on there. It isn't completely useless, but apart from that, it's perfect.

 

Pupitar - its crap, but not useless.

Zigzagoon - belly drum espeed flail set is legit

Edited September 10, 2015 by KaynineXL

[DrCraig]

That means I need to go on the forums when I want to quickly search something. Let's not forget a lot of people don't use forums.

The forum should be where you find information regarding the tiers becuase *drum roll* the whole competitive scene is derived from the forum. The dex is not a viability ranking.

 

For the non-forum users that is their problem. The whole competitive guidelines, discussion rules are the on the forum. Competitive PokeMMO is based off of the forum. The members which don't use the forum and want to be active competitively are at a disadvantage. Not because of the devs fault, or our fault, or the dex.It's the fault of those idiots for not spending 5 minutes to make an account and go under comp alley. Do you even need an account to view the comp alley? You cant complain about your ass being dirty if you dont grab some toilet paper and wipe it Kay.

 

 

Shelgon wouldn't be put on there. It isn't completely useless, but apart from that, it's perfect.

Now there we go. A problem. We have to tier these shit pokemon. We have to determine if they are shit or not and how we will determine that, just to make the dex look neater.

Edited September 10, 2015 by DrCraig

[KaynineXL]

 

Now there we go. A problem. We have to tier these shit pokemon. We have to determine if they are shit or not and how we will determine that, just to make the dex look neater.

 

You're making a big issue out of it lol. He literally did it in 30mins. I could make a list in no time with everything completely shit that has no use.

 

 

edit: All I'm saying is.. This isn't a big issue at all. It's a simple change that will make our life easier. I'm struggling to see why you're making it a big issue.

Edited September 10, 2015 by KaynineXL

[DaftKitteh]

You're making a big issue out of it lol. He literally did it in 30mins. I could make a list in no time with everything completely shit that has no use.

Should also be mentioned, as said in the post, I have no experience with NU. 
I, someone with no experience with the tier, was able to go through and pick out 121 (120 if shelgon is taken away, but more if I had all the dex entries) Pokemon that are worthless competitively, yet we have them grouped into a competitive tier.

[BenGorgon]

That is literally what this guide is. As a nice bonus, it has movesets and EV spreads for those that are new or unsure how they want to raise their pokes. 

[Blue]

I like this suggeston , +1. Those pokemon that are pre evolutions of those who belong already in the NU tier(bulbasaur/charmander etc) are not contributing anything and take space in the pokedex, making it harder and inconvenient to search through the list. The pokemon with one form(only NU forms) that may are not good in the Tier at the moment should remain in the list.

[Kizhaz]

Lets not pretend that separating the current list in the pokedex means they have to be tiered. It's not creating a tier, it's tidying up something that is currently ugly to look at. All we need (as mentioned above) is the most evolved pokemon of the current NU tier to be listed as well as the few like Trapinch, Clamperl and Pikachu that are also viable

I retract the most evolved statement. We dont need the likes of exeggcute ect on the list

Edited September 10, 2015 by Kizhaz

[DaftKitteh]

I like this suggeston , +1. Those pokemon that are pre evolutions of those who belong already in the NU tier(bulbasaur/charmander etc) are not contributing anything and take space in the pokedex, making it harder and inconvenient to search through the list. The pokemon with one form(only NU forms) that may are not good in the Tier at the moment should remain in the list.

I like this system.
Requires very little maintenance, is fair and keeps everything noteable in the tier visible.
Like Kizhaz says, keeping some things around is necessary, but keeping Weedle/Kakuna around when we have Beedrill in the tier is pointless.

This still leaves Magikarp(and possibly some other useless Pokemon) in the tier though, but you could still probably cut out a good portion of NU with these guidelines since some Pokemon (Nidos, Beedrill, Butterfree etc.) have two prevos in the same tier.
 

Edited September 10, 2015 by DaftKitteh

[JayMetaGod]

LF LC to come more often