[UU Discussion] Dusclops

[Artemiseta]

Common set

Leftovers

Pain split

Willow Wisp

Seismic toss

Shadow ball

 

Dusclops is also able to run all of the punches if it so desires.

other potential moves: rest, sleep talk, calm mind, ice beam, psychic, haze

 

Dusclops is the best wall available in UU now. 130 defense and special defense is hard to get through.

It is able to stall out a lot of threats in UU. Also Dusclops is able to limit the physical attackers through Will o Wisp. and it has Seismic Toss to break Substitutes of Pokemon that try to set up

At the same time Absol and Crawdaunt both get stab Dark moves that do a lot of damage to it.

The UU council would like your opinion.

Do you think it is too much for UU? Does it fit the Uber defensive characteristic. Why or Why not?

Edited August 18, 2015 by Noad

[RysPicz]

It's a very nice setup bait for some pokes like Rhydon, Charizard and others. For now, I don't see it as broken, faced Dusclops' in both rounds of UU, didn't had problem with any. They actually were a nice setup baits

[LionKIng]

should also put rest talk as good moves for it and the unfamous bold cm set with shadow ball good hp or icebeam/psychic or what ever you wanna put there

[Artemiseta]

editing some moves.

[OrangeManiac]

It's a very nice setup bait for some pokes like Rhydon, Charizard and others. For now, I don't see it as broken, faced Dusclops' in both rounds of UU, didn't had problem with any. They actually were a nice setup baits

Maybe those people didn't appreciate the importance of Haze.

[LionKIng]

Also what is really annoying about dusclops is he can stall alot of things out because of pressure and he makes spinners useless because he can just shitt on them all , no spinner can touch dusclops properly making a spike team really viable, but on the downside houndoom just wrecks dusclops by trapping it , nothing dusclops can do really but let himself die , thats the only downfall i see for dusclops alongside being a set up bait for a few pokemons.

[OrangeManiac]

252 Atk Houndoom Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dusclops: 84-98 (29.5 - 34.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (without switching so double this to get the power of switched out)

 

It's notable damage, yes I agree but just add some physical bulk and Houndoom just doesn't destroy Dusclops anymore - especially because it can wait for a Pain Split again. Houndoom is really an insanely hard counter but I personally feel the UU metagame we're in now is just way too much about Dusclops, Houndoom and Charizard (sunnybeamer, since Haze keks on Belly Drum).

[gbwead]

Maybe those people didn't appreciate the importance of Haze.

I play Haze on Dusclops and it really doesn't change much:

 

Rhydon can simply substitute and attack directly without any boost. (pain split doesn't work on sub) (dusclops using rest = rip dusclops)

If Charizard attacks you and forces you to use pain split, he can simply belly drum on that turn and finish you off.

[DoubleJ]

I play Haze on Dusclops and it really doesn't change much:

 

Rhydon can simply substitute and attack directly without any boost. (pain split doesn't work on sub) (dusclops using rest = rip dusclops)

If Charizard attacks you and forces you to use pain split, he can simply belly drum on that turn and finish you off.

 

lf Ice Beam Dusclops to break subs, hit Swellow, and stop Altaria too. 

[BurntZebra]

If houndoom sees an increase in usage, dusclops might start to run earthquake or something to take on houndoom. Dusclops also has access to counter which could give it a quick ko vs houndoom since the combination of night shade+countering pursuit will take out houndoom. I'm still not really sure about dusclops. Telf used a team based around omastar and dusclops in the UU tournament yesterday and it was very difficult to take down. Dusclops prevented toxic claydol from being able to spin, and would definitely be able to spin block tentacruel as well. Dusclops doesn't have to worry about dark types outside of houndoom thanks to will o wisp, although its shaky accuracy can lead to a free switch in for absol or crawdaunt. It can definitely take hits well but I'm not really convinced its uber just because of its unreliable healing, either trying to pain split, which is blocked by substitute, relying on rest, which leaves it set up bait for 2 turns, or using sleep talk in conjunction with rest, which limits its support greatly, removing a utility move or coverage move. 

[Robofiend]

If houndoom sees an increase in usage, dusclops might start to run earthquake or something to take on houndoom. Dusclops also has access to counter which could give it a quick ko vs houndoom

 

Counter's bad tho mostly because clops has such low HP. Usually only seen on pokes with higher HP.

 

My thoughts on Dusclops outside of this:

 

It's really good at spin blocking (probably too good), but relies heavily on PS/Rest, making it vulnerable to status, repeated hits from strong attackers, and the sudden shift towards a faster-paced UU metagame. I think it's behind Zam and Rhydon in terms of what should get banned/discussed first. 

[gbwead]

I think it's behind Zam and Rhydon in terms of what should get banned/discussed first. 

Since Zam have a positive impact on Rhydon viability and Rhydon have a positive impact on Zam viability, maybe only one of them needs to be ban.

 

2 examples:

Banning Zam would mean adamant Swellow comes back. (more powerful Steel Wing) 

Banning Rhydon would mean Kanghaskan is more viable and therefore will be able to deal with Zam with less downfall.

[DoubleJ]

Well kang with eq handles rhydon

[BurntZebra]

Well kang with eq handles rhydon

4+ Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 68-82 (37.7 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

it prevents kanga from being complete bait for rhydon, but rhydon can still come in pretty easily

[Draekyn]

If houndoom sees an increase in usage, dusclops might start to run earthquake or something to take on houndoom. 

I already run EQ on mine

[DoubleJ]

4+ Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 68-82 (37.7 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

it prevents kanga from being complete bait for rhydon, but rhydon can still come in pretty easily

 

And do what? 

 

If it comes in on the Earthquake it's royally fucked for now and for the next time it tries to roll on in all smooth like. 

 

4 Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 64-76 (35.3 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 154-183 (72.6 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Simple scenario. SpDef Kangaskhan is staring down the barrel of a helpless little Alakazam. Zam swaps to Kangaskhan hoping to catch it in the act of a Double-Edge/Crunch. Low and behold you EQ. Bam! Rhydon takes one hit, oh no it can only take two more. Ok no sweat.

 

Rhydon uses Earthquake but crap, Kangaskhan is faster. Bam another EQ in the jaw. Kangaskhan takes your best hit and lives. Now Kangaskhan just has to finish you off with another hit to the face. And this is the version without any significant attack investment. Or! It simply switches out since your EQ CB locked. Crap. 

So unless you crit or Kangaskhan is carrying around 75% health, you're gonna lose. 

 

The Swords Dance Rhydon is at an even worse advantage. Considering it switches in on EQ, sets up Swords Dance, takes another EQ, and then dies before it can actually even hit the thing. 

 

Now this is all hypothetical though. 

Edited August 11, 2015 by DoubleJ

[BurntZebra]

And do what? 

 

If it comes in on the Earthquake it's royally fucked for now and for the next time it tries to roll on in all smooth like. 

 

4 Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 64-76 (35.3 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 154-183 (72.6 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Simple scenario. SpDef Kangaskhan is staring down the barrel of a helpless little Alakazam. Zam swaps to Kangaskhan hoping to catch it in the act of a Double-Edge/Crunch. Low and behold you EQ. Bam! Rhydon takes one hit, oh no it can only take two more. Ok no sweat.

 

Rhydon uses Earthquake but crap, Kangaskhan is faster. Bam another EQ in the jaw. Kangaskhan takes your best hit and lives. Now Kangaskhan just has to finish you off with another hit to the face. And this is the version without any significant attack investment. Or! It simply switches out since your EQ CB locked. Crap. 

So unless you crit or Kangaskhan is carrying around 75% health, you're gonna lose. 

 

The Swords Dance Rhydon is at an even worse advantage. Considering it switches in on EQ, sets up Swords Dance, takes another EQ, and then dies before it can actually even hit the thing. 

 

Now this is all hypothetical though. 

You're assuming a lot with this here. First it takes some pretty big balls to earthquake a +1 alakazam that is going to 2hko if you dont ohko it first. Second, nothing is threatening if you can predict its switch in every time. Tyranitar would be OU if that was the case. Thirdly, you're assuming rhydon doesn't learn superpower and that kangaskhan is magically going to be at full hp even though it has the role of pivoting in and out of basically all the special attackers in the tier. Also I don't think any rhydon is going to switch in vs a kanga with eq, then try to set up swords dance, that's like setting up curselax vs a machamp. 

[Gunthug]

4+ Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 68-82 (37.7 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

it prevents kanga from being complete bait for rhydon, but rhydon can still come in pretty easily

dat adamant 4 attack calc

 

However, I'm with you on the kanga v. rhydon thing - it's extremely risky to EQ a zam at +1 expecting a rhydon switch JJ

 

0 Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 67-79 (51.1 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Although, it's not like return 1hkos either

 

0 Atk Kangaskhan Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 102-121 (77.8 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

By the way, what are we doing discussing rhydon v kanga in the dusclops thread? lel

[BurntZebra]

dat adamant 4 attack calc

 

However, I'm with you on the kanga v. rhydon thing - it's extremely risky to EQ a zam at +1 expecting a rhydon switch JJ

 

0 Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 67-79 (51.1 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Although, it's not like return 1hkos either

 

0 Atk Kangaskhan Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 102-121 (77.8 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

By the way, what are we doing discussing rhydon v kanga in the dusclops thread? lel

It'd be silly not to run adamant, otherwise alakazam beats kangaskhan. (assuming you run double edge)

[DoubleJ]

#bigballs

Also, when is Rhydon ever gonna run Super Power? Drop DE for it I guess?

[BurntZebra]

#bigballs

Also, when is Rhydon ever gonna run Super Power? Drop DE for it I guess?

dedge isn't that useful in most situations. Superpower is nice for getting the kos on kangaskhan/granbull/clefable and its nice to be able to hit steelix for super effective damage while not being a free switch in for flying types

[DoubleJ]

dedge isn't that useful in most situations. Superpower is nice for getting the kos on kangaskhan/granbull/clefable and its nice to be able to hit steelix for super effective damage while not being a free switch in for flying types

 

I'd have to agree on this one. I can't think of losing coverage on anything by dropping Double-Edge either. 

[BurntZebra]

I'd have to agree on this one. I can't think of losing coverage on anything by dropping Double-Edge either. 

I admit I'd probably rather run ice punch to ohko gligar/hit vileplume without being able to pivot into a ground immunity after taking a hit

[DoubleJ]

Anyhoos, back to the subject of Dusclops. 

 

Seismic Toss - Shadow Ball - WoW - Pain Split with Special Def Investment is probably going to be the pre-eminent set. While it is set-up bait for Rhydon's SubDance set, Rhydon will either need to switch in safely (avoiding WoW) or come in after a kill. Although Dusclops primary job isn't nabbing knockouts, but rather supporting its team. In UU we lack any really reliable GUTS users to take advantage of WoW spam. Off the top of my head I can think of Swellow and Raticate, both of which are severely limited by our other new addition Rhydon. This means that WoW will be able to hit basically everything. 

Well not everything. We still have Houndoom and Charizard as damn near perfect counters for this set. Unfortunately though, Dusclops can make some simple adjustments in order to stop both of these threats. Thunder Punch + EQ sounds like a tasty anti-meta set that still pairs nicely with WoW/PS. 

 

I'm having trouble seeing Dusclops being taken down easily in standard play. Does this mean Dusclops is broken? Idk, we'll just have to wait and see. 

[DoubleJ]

Putting in a bump here to entice some discussion on this beast. There's been two tournaments and I've seen it being used quite a bit. Any thoughts?