OU Viability Thread

[SpartacusGD]

Water type + psychup metagross = problem solved and you get a dragon danced metagross ready to clean the shit out of any team

[BurntZebra]

Water type + psychup metagross = problem solved and you get a dragon danced metagross ready to clean the shit out of any team

well I have no idea why anyone would run psych up metagross without curselax in the meta. Also metagross is not really favored to win the match up, since kingdra outspeeds and does about 40-48% at +1, then kingdra still outspeeds, and metagross can't ohko kingdra back still. And waterfall flinches are too gross. (I'm assuming the person runs waterfall return dragon dance because thats much better than a 90 base power outrage imo)

[codylramey]

Some ppl in verm run outrage instead of return. Which getting locked into ourage isnt game changing. The only poke tha can be even slightly punishing for this is metagross. But he still cant kill the kingdra.

[RysPicz]

If Kingdra would get Sniper in here, I'd gladly elaborate why it should be a top threat here. But for now, as a DD sweeper, it's simply outclassed by Gyarados, even though it has a better typing- Gyara has better base stats, much better physical movepool and more useful ability.

 

I would consider Kingdra as a niche poke but definietly not a top tier threat, comparable to Gyarados.

[BurntZebra]

gyarados is nothing compared to kingdra. gyarados, you just bring a pokemon with hp electric or thunderbolt, or even a defensive ludicolo or skarmory and you're set. kingdra doesn't have any 4x weakness, and barely any 2x weakness, meaning its very difficult to take down. Its only 3hko'ed by jolteon tbolt, and 3hko'ed by most other attacks. Gyarados is only good vs noobs who don't know what they're doing

[RysPicz]

Zeb pls. I bring Skarm and what? I can wall Kingdra as well, that is a shit argument. Almost every poke has a counter or a decent check. What can Ludi do to me? If it's defensive it can only be a good setup bait. Kingdra barely runs sub, Gyaras do that often. If you treat every pokemon with HP elec or Thunderbolt as counter, then I can treat every willowisp poke as Kingdra counter.

Gyarados is a top tier threat regardless of what you say and it's for a good reason. And Kingdra is nowhere near Gyara.

Edited September 5, 2015 by RysPicz

[BurntZebra]

Zeb pls. I bring Skarm and what? I can wall Kingdra as well, that is a shit argument. Almost every poke has a counter or a decent check. What can Ludi do to me? If it's defensive it can only be a good setup bait. Kingdra barely runs sub, Gyaras do that often. If you treat every pokemon with HP elec or Thunderbolt as counter, then I can treat every willowisp poke as Kingdra counter.

Gyarados is a top tier threat regardless of what you say and it's for a good reason. And Kingdra is nowhere near Gyara.

Well bringing in skarmory vs kingdra is very risky since kingdras can also be a special attacker, whereas gyarados is pretty much never a special attacker. Ludicolo can leech seed and break substitutes with giga drain, or be pro like daft and run sd tpunch ludicolo. There are only 2 pokemon that learn will o wisp in ou now realistically, and kingdra can set up on both of them quite easily and rest off the burn, or just run focus energy or facade to ignore the burn. The only niche gyarados has over kingdra is being a better sub flailer but besides that, kingdra is better in most regards. 

[codylramey]

I have to agree with zeb kingdra has a much easier time setting up and has less things that can safely switch in on it. Intemidate on gyara is cool but as a ddance sweeper kingdra is imo the better option.

Edited September 5, 2015 by codylramey

[SpartacusGD]

Too many p2 makes it hard to setup gyarados now too. I mean the dd 3 attacks type. Kingdra is really easier to setup hmm . A paychic twave slowbro is a good kingdra check. Kingdra right now is a huge pain in ass gotta admit that. Real counters to it are basically gimmicks or something you wouldnt normally wanna run unless you fear it.

[codylramey]

A healthy weezing can counter. So can a icebeam haze wish protect vaporeon (bc thats not specificly built for kingdra at all). If no outrage then cliyster can counter it. I think slowbro can too. If it has outrage then neither can very well.

Edited September 6, 2015 by codylramey

[bigbangattack]

I'm going to pull gard back to a rank in a gengarless meta...he can set up on most special walls not named umbreon and with prediction will in turn sweep a team.... The new update allowing haze/fake tears to change his stats prevents an s rank but imo gard needs very little team help to wreck a portion of the meta....other than reliable switch ins to his weaknesses....not to mention substitute kills your shot at a pursuit kill...waiting for response

[BurntZebra]

Gardevoir has 4mss pretty bad meaning its either limited on coverage moves or staying alive longer. Toxic or return porygon does a good job of beating cm gardevoir, in addition to umbreon which is pretty common now. Gardevoir also is somewhat easily killed by heracross/aerodactyl/metagross, all of which are fairly prevalent

[Robofiend]

Guys can I get some proposed rankings out of this discussion? It's good to see people debating things.

You don't need to write a wall of text, but I'd like some reasoning.

 

It seems like Kingdra's being suggested as A-ish rank. 

 

Should I even bother updating until Gengar ban is finally voted on?

[DoubleJ]

Guys can I get some proposed rankings out of this discussion? It's good to see people debating things.

You don't need to write a wall of text, but I'd like some reasoning.

 

It seems like Kingdra's being suggested as A-ish rank. 

 

Should I even bother updating until Gengar ban is finally voted on?

 

I'd suggest waiting tbh. The tier is in flux and ranking pokemon based on a tier that isn't guaranteed seems like a bad idea. 

 

Kingdra - A-rank though on principle

[Robofiend]

I'd suggest waiting tbh. The tier is in flux and ranking pokemon based on a tier that isn't guaranteed seems like a bad idea. 

 

Kingdra - A-rank though on principle

 

Even in Gengar meta? Seems like it was used pretty infrequently (altho maybe the Scope Lens set can become a counter to Bulk Gar if it comes back)

[DoubleJ]

Even in Gengar meta? Seems like it was used pretty infrequently (altho maybe the Scope Lens set can become a counter to Bulk Gar if it comes back)

 

Bulk Gengar is truly the only broken set. That bitch just never dies. Outside of that Kingdra is kinda like the Rhydon of OU. It has so much potential but it really gets little usage because it has difficulty doing what it does best with the various threats in the tier. 

 

My random analogy, nevertheless, Kingdra has so much potential just so little results. Here's to hoping it does some work and can get some looks. 

[codylramey]

Bulk Gengar is truly the only broken set. That uguu just never dies. Outside of that Kingdra is kinda like the Rhydon of OU. It has so much potential but it really gets little usage because it has difficulty doing what it does best with the various threats in the tier. 

 

My random analogy, nevertheless, Kingdra has so much potential just so little results. Here's to hoping it does some work and can get some looks. 

I think he may be the rhydon of old UU, Remember that beast sitting in the background back  b4 the baton pass ban never getting any use until it started reking tournies? I think kingdra could become the same way. It has many set up oppertunities and there are so few pokemon who can and want to come in on this thing after 1 DDace, especially b4 you know its set.

 

Also scope lense loss a lot of viability now that crits dont ignore burn. It was really the only reason to run it over chesto resto imo.

Edited September 12, 2015 by codylramey

[bigbangattack]

Toxic return porygon does but its not the most common set the other two sets can be beat with calm mind sub also it makes for a strong spc defense wall as well giving it some versatility I'd be willing to go to a b ranking after my more recent tests since it appears that running umb/chansey along with porygon and a strong physical attacker is more common but gardevoir can do some serious damage and the trace ability allows for some free switch ins to set up....but I do agree you cant run a tournament with gard on every team so I'll run with the b rank thanks for the perspective zebra

Also I'd like to point out that all the natural cure users I'm seeing allow me to status heal w/o running a heal bell user if I decided to so I can add some versatility on team building....sorry for the lack of calcs but I'm just throwing out ideas here from my limited available play time

[RysPicz]

Chansey to A.

 

It might not have offensive presence, but without gengar, it does not give a shit. Hyper voice that passes through sub defeats subreversal dugtrio a'ka it's most dangerous enemy, leaving us only with a CB Trapinch as a reliable way of getting rid of it. It's currently the most reliable special wall the tier has.

 

Imo :v)

[codylramey]

Chansey to A.

 

It might not have offensive presence, but without gengar, it does not give a shit. Hyper voice that passes through sub defeats subreversal dugtrio a'ka it's most dangerous enemy, leaving us only with a CB Trapinch as a reliable way of getting rid of it. It's currently the most reliable special wall the tier has.

 

Imo :v)

252+ Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 384-453 (54.5 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Siesmic is a 3hko hypervoice is worse. If twave chansey dugtrio can pretty much come in on and rek chanseys day any time its out. Im not sure if toxic chancey can outstall with wish protect.

Edited October 1, 2015 by codylramey

[Robofiend]

I'm down with moving Chansey to A rank

 

Some other pokes to be discussed:

 

Venusaur

Ludicolo

Aerodactyl

Jolteon

Starmie

Forretress

(I'm assuming we're keeping Metagross at A+)

Slowbro

Arcanine

Magneton

Tauros

Slaking

Heracross

Ursaring

Skarmory

Weezing

Flygon

Gyarados

Porygon2

Rhydon

Dusclops

 

That's a lot of pokes, but I get the feeling the old rankings are no good now, since they're mostly from the Gengar era.

[Vaeldras]

Linoone to A

 

As long as your opponent runs umbreon, chansey or weezing and you have a lum with you, you're almost guaranteed to set up easily, and we all know what happens when linoone is at +6: it gets stopped by skarm/meta.

Pair it with magneton and a good defensive core and you're good to go.

Ofc the same could be said of charizard, poliwrath and co, but linoone has a way easier time with stab return and espeed.

The downside is it becomes useless (kinda) when your opponent doesn't have any of these 3.

There might be even more things linoone can setup on, but i dont' feel like running calcs atm.

 

Ot: We might want to also reconsider rhydon, breloom and anything that gets to sub on chansey.

[Vaeldras]

I'm down with moving Chansey to A rank

 

Some other pokes to be discussed:

 

Venusaur

Ludicolo

Aerodactyl

Jolteon

Starmie

Forretress

(I'm assuming we're keeping Metagross at A+)

Slowbro

Arcanine

Magneton

Tauros

Slaking

Heracross

Ursaring

Skarmory

Weezing

Flygon

Gyarados

Porygon2

Rhydon

Dusclops

 

That's a lot of pokes, but I get the feeling the old rankings are no good now, since they're mostly from the Gengar era.

 

Let' try and bring back some life to this thread

 

Venusaur to B+

 

A great add to any team, by far the best response to spores/sleep powder and awesome when you just want to spread some status.

It also has access to some pretty devastating gimmick sets to take advantage of chansey and other walls (block + curse, sdance...).

Versatile, effective and it works well with anything.

 

Ludicolo to B

 

Similiar to saur, except it does a way better job at handling both gyarados and swampert.

Like saur, it's a nice add to pretty much any team, but it struggles a bit more at handling sp hits.

However, venusaur is more likely to come in handy, partially because of it's access to sleep powder to cripple what i can't beat directly.

 

Aerodactyl C+/B

 

Ok, it's fast, but even chansey can sometimes be a problem to it.

Lacks* raw power, but it's speed kinda makes up for it. Also pursuit trapping dugtrio is a nice thing.

 

Starmie C+/B

 

With Ludicolo and chansey around this thing almost feels like dead weight.

The main problem is, unlike stuff like charizard and jolteon, starmie has no way to surprise it's opponent.

It's not even that good against wallbreakers or other sweepers.

However it's moveset has everything a sp sweeper could possibly need, and it can sometimes work as a bulky tank with some support.

The poke itself isn't bad by any means, it just won't work in our current meta.

Let's just say it sucks at sweeping

 

Forretress to B

 

Skarmory with rapid spin (and a decent offensive moveset supported by 90 base att).

Needs some wish support and it can't take a fire punch for shit (kinda), but it's worth picking it over some other ph wall if you're afraid of spikes.

Again, anyone with a match in it's pocket* and beans in it's belly can easily 1-2hko it (that's why you see absurd sets like mixed flygon lmao).

 

Slaking to C+/B

 

Good luck taking a hit from this guy.

 

Am bored, i'll continue some other time

Edited October 22, 2015 by Vaeldras

[Vaeldras]

I'm trying so hard to keep this thread going, but when i see starmie still in the a ranks i feel like giving up

 

Flygon to b+

 

Stab earthquake, a damn good coverage, nice typing and pretty high speed.

It hits pretty hard and can be run mixed, so forretress and weezing are both at relative risk against it.

it's a good wallbreaker no matter how you put it.

Like cband pert it's threatening to pretty much anything, being able to best a lot of pokemon in 1v1s: that makes it a solid lead (i'll test it in time).

 

Tauros B

 

When there are no steel types around this thing is an absolute beast.

stab dedge/return with a choice band is too much for anything that doesn't resist it, and that includes a lot of things that tauros can outspeed.

Just like slaking, it forces a lot of switches, so it's always better to protect and scout a possible pursuit.

However as a cbander it faces a lot of competition with things like aerodactyl, swampert and flygon, which not only have a better coverage but they can also best him in a 1v1.

Pair it with magneton maybe, or just use flygon.

 

Magneton B+/A

 

It may not be bulky or easily stopped by a venusaur + chansey core, but it's something every defensive player has to watch out for.

It's also worth mentioning that with metal sound it's the closest thing to a special wallbreaker.

The only downside is it's not too good when your opponent doesn't have steel types, but with such a strong tbolt you can forgive it.

 

Gardevoir to A

 

Tempted to say a+, but i might be biased.

It can work as a check to so many things: Arcanine (intimidate), venusaur, ludicolo, porygon 2, chansey, pretty much any wall and special sweeper. If you have one in your team you'll end up using that a lot, guaranteed.

It's also versatile: you can use it with trick, coverage and wow with pain split, calm mind, cleric.,,

It can actually replace chansey and umbreon if paired with another sp wall! Heck, not only it doesn't give af about dugtrio, it can also revenge kill it with arena trap trace, isn't that awesome?

On the other hand cband pursuit can be a problem, but protect can sometimes help against that.

Safe to use, anything but predictable, flexible and extremely versatile. 

Has quite a few edges over porygon 2, the only thing it can't do is stopping gyara.

It can fit in pretty much any team, so anyone should give it a try

 

Edit: Robo update the goddamn thread, how in the world is starmie an a rank when garde is at b?

Edited October 25, 2015 by Vaeldras

[Robofiend]

K here are some changes:

 

 

S Rank:

Kingdra

Metagross

 

A+ Rank:

Chansey

Gyarados

Arcanine

 

A Rank:

Starmie

Arcanine

Forretress

Marowak

Ursaring

Heracross

Skarmory

Magneton

 

Kingdra to S: An undeniably good pokemon whose one great check, Ludicolo, has fallen by the wayside as Chansey has become more popular. DD punishes teams lacking Gyarados and Rain is almost unfairly good once Chansey and Porygon have been worn down. Versatility is always nice - and some physical sets exploit common switch ins like Gyarados by running HP Electric.

Metagross back to S: For a while I had this thing at A+ but it's so common and so useful in a world where Toxic stall dominates and CB Tpunch is relatively unresisted by common walls. Great poke that defines the metagame.

 

Chansey to A+: while it's blobishness hurts, it absolutely shuts down most bulky teams without a cleric and can even destroy offense with spikes and status. Easy the tier's most reliable (if not best) special wall

Arcanine to A+: A great wall that can hurt bulky waters, prevent Reversal sweeps and generally piss off phys sweepers with its handy ability and reliable recovery. 

Gyarados to A+: A sweeper that doesn't care about much except P2 and Weezing. Commonly used with a useful ablity.

 

Starmie remains A: even if t can't sweep very reliably, its ability as a status absorber and rapid spinner with recovery is inherently useful.

Forretress to A: Rapid spinning is great, as is its reliability against non HP Fire Magneton (who are rather uncommon). A spiker that can run a mixed defensive set with Toxic if it needs to. Pain Split is a massive boon in a tier filled with things that love to abuse 1 turn recovery.

Marowak to A: A former star of OU that has returned to break walls once again. With fewer water types in the tier and the stats to punch huge holes in grounded teams with Bonemerang or EQ, Marowak should be feared and has begun to see more use because of it.

Ursaring to A: An awesome Toxic stall check with amazing coverage for teams that don't want to give up a spot for Magneton. Absolutely runs over walls, but can be worn down pretty easily by ambient damage.

Heracross to A: Like Ursaring, Guts make it scary (as does SD) and it abuses Chansey particularly well by either Pursuit trapping it or setting up on the Protect to go for a sweep. Unfortunately, it falters against Skamory

Skarmory to A: The steel bird is master of OU spikes and unlike Forretress, it can Taunt, Rest, and Drill Peck well. Its sky-high defense prevents sweeps from Aerodactyls, Heracross or Metagross and Whirlwind is incredibly useful against common Dragon Dancers.

Magneton to A: The trapper that everyone kinda loves (unlike Dugtrio) who can dewall your team handily if you let it get a sub up. While its ground weakness can be pitiful and its movepool shallow, it's currently the only common special attacker that can take out a Chansey in a pinch - Metal Sound combines amazingly well with Spikes to irritate and wear down bulky teams without a Marowak. 

 

Tauros to B+: Imo its underrated, especially when it has Facade, Pursuit, EQ and it has only benefitted from Magneton's high usage.

 

I would also like some debate here. 

 

 

I'm trying so hard to keep this thread going, but when i see starmie still in the a ranks i feel like giving up

 

Flygon to b+

 

Stab earthquake, a damn good coverage, nice typing and pretty high speed.

It hits pretty hard and can be run mixed, so forretress and weezing are both at relative risk against it.

it's a good wallbreaker no matter how you put it.

Like cband pert it's threatening to pretty much anything, being able to best a lot of pokemon in 1v1s: that makes it a solid lead (i'll test it in time).

 

Tauros B

 

When there are no steel types around this thing is an absolute beast.

stab dedge/return with a choice band is too much for anything that doesn't resist it, and that includes a lot of things that tauros can outspeed.

Just like slaking, it forces a lot of switches, so it's always better to protect and scout a possible pursuit.

However as a cbander it faces a lot of competition with things like aerodactyl, swampert and flygon, which not only have a better coverage but they can also best him in a 1v1.

Pair it with magneton maybe, or just use flygon.

 

Magneton B+/A

 

It may not be bulky or easily stopped by a venusaur + chansey core, but it's something every defensive player has to watch out for.

It's also worth mentioning that with metal sound it's the closest thing to a special wallbreaker.

The only downside is it's not too good when your opponent doesn't have steel types, but with such a strong tbolt you can forgive it.

 

Gardevoir to A

 

Tempted to say a+, but i might be biased.

It can work as a check to so many things: Arcanine (intimidate), venusaur, ludicolo, porygon 2, chansey, pretty much any wall and special sweeper. If you have one in your team you'll end up using that a lot, guaranteed.

It's also versatile: you can use it with trick, coverage and wow with pain split, calm mind, cleric.,,

It can actually replace chansey and umbreon if paired with another sp wall! Heck, not only it doesn't give af about dugtrio, it can also revenge kill it with arena trap trace, isn't that awesome?

On the other hand cband pursuit can be a problem, but protect can sometimes help against that.

Safe to use, anything but predictable, flexible and extremely versatile. 

Has quite a few edges over porygon 2, the only thing it can't do is stopping gyara.

It can fit in pretty much any team, so anyone should give it a try

 

Edit: Robo update the goddamn thread, how in the world is starmie an a rank when garde is at b?

 

I think you're systematically ranking things a bit low. Gard might be a bit below A rank. Would love to see more discussion on all of these. Starmie is staying A rank for reasons listed in my post, although the sweeper set is bad it's still a grade-A rapid spinner in a tier drowning in Spikes.