Vaeldras Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 (edited) Ok, we're talking about a pokemon with Rock, Electric and Water weaknesses: it's going to have a hard time in the tier, especially given how slow it is compared to actual sweepers. Starmie's bulkier flat out, Gengar has like 5 usable resistances, and the superfast sweepers earn their keep in just being good at Revenge-killing things or late-game sweeping, not randomly switching in. 4 SpA Weezing Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard: 138-164 (46.4 - 55.2%) -- 65.2% chance to 2HKO 252+ Atk Metagross ThunderPunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 226-268 (76 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 584-688 (196.6 - 231.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO 0 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard: 111-132 (37.3 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Yeah, it can switch in but if you mispredict it's pretty much game over. Umbreon definitely CAN touch it with Toxic stall, Weezing has to carry Tbolt, Venusaur has the option of Sludge Bombing it to death. Even Skarmory can hit it hard with Drill Peck, lel. All those pokes only have a move out of 4 to actually deal some solid damage to zard, while zard can 1hko back and it's even faster. Umbreon is 2hko'd under the sun so it can't switch in, and even then lum berry/ substitute can easily avoid toxic stall. Srs, you don't toxic stall zard. Looking at base stats charizard is actually a bit bulkier than starmie, except starmie can afford to have some hp investment so yeh, but it was just stat wise. it has 3 common weaknesses, but typing wise it's actually not bad with those 5 resists. Fire, bug, fighting, grass and steel + immunity to earthquake. That makes up for it's weaknesses imo. Also sunny day almost makes up for that water weakness. 0 Atk Skarmory Drill Peck vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 88-105 (29.6 - 35.3%) -- 17.9% chance to 3HKO I wouldn't call this hitting hard. It can't revenge kill, true, but then it'd be an a rank. Edit: Don't like my posts to mock me, i'll zard sweep you in an official one of these days Edited November 5, 2015 by Vaeldras Robofiend 1 Link to comment
gbwead Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 With the necessity to run more spdef walls, it could be possible that Zard finds easier ways to set up. However, that ultimetaly remains to be seen. Imo Zard should not be ranked more than B. [spoiler] typing wise it's actually not bad with those 5 resists. Fire, bug, fighting, grass and steel + immunity to earthquake. That makes up for it's weaknesses imo. Also sunny day almost makes up for that weakness. Nice resistances, I agree [/spoiler] Link to comment
DrCraig Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Somebody wanna fill me in on what this Oceanic was looking like? Arimanius 1 Link to comment
Robofiend Posted July 19, 2015 Author Share Posted July 19, 2015 Tbh Arcanine is a pretty good Zard counter unless it's running HP Rock or something Link to comment
Gunthug Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Tbh Arcanine is a pretty good Zard counter unless it's running HP Rock or something I have seen some sunny day sets rocking ancientpower over sub Robofiend and DoubleJ 2 Link to comment
Robofiend Posted July 19, 2015 Author Share Posted July 19, 2015 I have seen some sunny day sets rocking ancientpower over sub Technically Arc can still win the matchup: 252+ SpA Charizard AncientPower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 154-182 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Arcanine ExtremeSpeed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 104-123 (35 - 41.4%) -- 76.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Arcanine ExtremeSpeed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 104-123 (35 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO If for some reason Zard's running Petaya or Lum (neither are totally awful options) and doesn't start by Ancient Power attacking Arc (who can also just Morning Sun stall Zard, barring boosts) then It's a 3HKO. Also, Starmie has an easy time swapping in against SunnyBeam Zard. Overall, though, Zard's looking a lot better than I originally expected. Probably deserving of at least a B ranking, assuming we ban Gengar. Link to comment
Vaeldras Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Technically Arc can still win the matchup: 252+ SpA Charizard AncientPower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 154-182 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Arcanine ExtremeSpeed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 104-123 (35 - 41.4%) -- 76.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Arcanine ExtremeSpeed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 104-123 (35 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO If for some reason Zard's running Petaya or Lum (neither are totally awful options) and doesn't start by Ancient Power attacking Arc (who can also just Morning Sun stall Zard, barring boosts) then It's a 3HKO. Also, Starmie has an easy time swapping in against SunnyBeam Zard. Overall, though, Zard's looking a lot better than I originally expected. Probably deserving of at least a B ranking, assuming we ban Gengar. Told U Also pls post something else guys Link to comment
bl0nde Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) You have weezing listed as B, which is cool. I am not to say you need to change it, I am just putting my opinion. Personally it's a low A for me because it's one of our best physical walls: "Rank A: "These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well"" Weezing Rank A -Wide special attack move pool: thunderbolt, flamethrower, sludge bomb, hidden powers -Explosion means you are never safe simply switching in your special wall to stop weezing -Great typing and ability for defensive role. -access to W-o-W to annoy or weaken attackers -Pain split to help keep weezing's health up. Ludicolo Rank A -Wide move pool. [thunderpunch/surf/giga drain/knock off/toxic/synthesis/leech seed/ice beam, etc] -rain dish + leech seed can make it very difficult to take out on special defense side without sludge bomb/ -Making ludicolo physically defensive allows it to check for metagross/gyarados(carry tpunch)/swampert/kingdra. Also, there is still enough bulk with this build to switch in on starmie and giga drain it for HP recovery. Kingdra Rank B -Kingdra takes neutral damage from most attacks; however, timing is still needed to get kingdra on the field without sustaining damage or being status'd. -Once kingdra is on the field and has dragon danced, it can be difficult to absorb the STAB waterfall + outrage. -Special sweeper kingdra is still out there. If you have to adjust, you can lose precious turns. Charizard Rank B -Rank B because timing is needed to get it in the game. Its most popular opportunity would be to switch in on the W-o-W of weezing. It is unable to do this due to possibly being hit by a tbolt, which makes arcanine superior overall. -charizard lacks the priority move arcanine has and the recovery move arcanine has. Intimidate is also more useful in general. -Most charizards are belly drummers (50%-70%). If you arn't ready for it, +6 can hurt you. Random note: belly drum puts attack at +6 even after intimidate. -Due to many charizard being drummers, some players name their special attacking charizards names which imply they are physical sweepers when in fact they are not (other people do this besides you vaeldras, this is not a call out). Caution is needed because a strong fire blast/overheat on unexpecting pokemon can be problematic depending on the situation. Steelix Rank B [crunch/iron tail/earthquake,rest,curse,roar,toxic] -Special Defense steelix has a niche in the metagame mostly because of gengar. -Play around with the set and you'll see the niches. For example, one curse is enough to take on non-banded metagross and win easily (in b4 crit). -It's usefel to have a defensive steel type around for locked in dragon claw/outrage/meteor mash. It's also useful to absorb T-wave/tbolt and sludge bomb/toxic. -HP fire magneton only beats special defense steelix if steelix is beat down or resting. -Be ready for Weezing W-o-W and skarmory if you are a steelix user. Don't let yourself be set up on. -Other pokemon steelix can help check for you: Alakazam/Jolteon/Aerodactyl/Espeon/Umbreon/Porygon2/Chansey/Venusaur. Gyarados Rank A or B Weak to Tbolt and status effects, but has switch in opportunities with intimidate. Low A or high B, not sure. Arcanine B -It has a niche in the meta mostly for absorbing gengar and weezing W-o-W. -Priority move e-speed -good ability + bulk + access to morning sun = a very bulky defender. Forretress C -4x weakness to fire can be used to bait in fire attacks for flash fire pokemon, but is still a big weakness with so many arcanine running around. -doesnt really make any offensive pressure unless you explode? -it's almost a requirement to carry EQ for magneton so you sort of lose a moveslot there if you prefer a diferent move other than EQ. -lots of switch in opportunities with good resistences for setting up spikes. -I'd like to say total terrain control, but everyone knows a gengar will be floating around blocking your spins (when is a gengar not on a team?). It is my opinion written off the top of my head. Edited July 28, 2015 by bl0nde Vaeldras 1 Link to comment
OldKeith Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 You have weezing listed as B, which is cool. I am not to say you need to change it, I am just putting my opinion. Personally it's a low A for me because it's one of our best physical walls: "Rank A: "These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well"" Weezing Rank A -Wide special attack move pool: thunderbolt, flamethrower, sludge bomb, hidden powers -Explosion means you are never safe simply switching in your special wall to stop weezing -Great typing and ability for defensive role. -access to W-o-W to annoy or weaken attackers Ludicolo Rank A -Wide move pool. [thunderpunch/surf/giga drain/knock off/toxic/synthesis/leech seed/ice beam, etc] -rain dish + leech seed can make it very difficult to take out on special defense side without sludge bomb/ -Making ludicolo physically defensive allows it to take on metagross/gyarados/swampert/kingdra. Also, there is still enough bulk with this build to switch in on starmie and giga drain it for HP recovery. Kingdra Rank B -Kingdra takes neutral damage from most attacks; however, timing is still needed to get kingdra on the field without sustaining damage or being status'd. -Once kingdra is on the field and has dragon danced, it can be difficult to absorb the STAB waterfall + outrage. -Special sweeper kingdra is still out there. If you have to adjust, you can lose precious turns. Charizard Rank B -Rank B because timing is needed to get it in the game. Its most popular opportunity would be to switch in on the W-o-W of weezing. It is unable to do this due to possibly being hit by a tbolt, which makes arcanine superior overall. -charizard lacks the priority move arcanine has and the recovery move arcanine has. Intimidate is also more useful in general. -Most charizards are belly drummers (50%-70%). If you arn't ready for it, +6 can hurt you. Random note: belly drum puts attack at +6 even after intimidate. -Due to many charizard being drummers, some players name their special attacking charizards names which imply they are physical sweepers when in fact they are not (other people do this besides you vaeldras, this is not a call out). Caution is needed because a strong fire blast/overheat on unexpecting pokemon can be problematic depending on the situation. Steelix Rank B [crunch/iron tail/earthquake,rest,curse,roar,toxic] -Special Defense steelix has a niche in the metagame mostly because of gengar. -Play around with the set and you'll see the niches. For example, one curse is enough to take on non-banded metagross and win easily (in b4 crit). -It's usefel to have a defensive steel type around for locked in dragon claw/outrage. It's also useful to absorb T-wave -HP fire magneton only beats special defense steelix if steelix is beat down or resting. -Be ready for Weezing W-o-W and skarmory if you are a steelix user. Don't let yourself be set up on. -Other pokemon steelix can help check for you: Alakazam/Jolteon/Aerodactyl/Espeon/Umbreon/Porygon2/Chansey/Venusaur. Gyarados Rank B or A Weak to Tbolt and status effects, but has switch in opportunities with intimidate. Low A or high B, not sure. Arcanine B -It has a niche in the meta mostly for absorbing gengar and weezing W-o-W. -Priority move e-speed -good ability + bulk + access to morning sun = a very bulky defender. Forretress C -4x weakness to fire can be used to bait in fire attacks for flash fire pokemon, but is still a big weakness with so many arcanine running around. -doesnt really make any offensive pressure unless you explode? -it's almost a requirement to carry EQ for magneton so you sort of lose a moveslot there if you prefer a diferent move other than EQ. -lots of switch in opportunities with good resistences for setting up spikes. -I'd like to say total terrain control, but everyone knows a gengar will be floating around blocking your spins (when is a gengar not on a team?). It is my opinion written off the top of my head. I'd disagree with some of them. Arcanine is at least A because it is one of the best defensive walls we have right now. It can safely come into many physical attacks, especially non banded, and extremespeed helps it put an end to sweeps. The recovery makes it easily top tier. Steelix is unconvincing because of the lack of an offensive presence. It has no recovery, it is prone to burn and it does not stop the setting up of spikes either, so what can it to beside taking a beating? Forretress is a bit better than you make it be. Sure, the only weakness it has hurts, but fire is not that common in OU. Forre is a great answer to Metagross and can stop most banded pokemon. It remains one of the most reliable spikers in game, and only HP fire Magneton beats it. Even so, Magneton does not have a guaranteed free switch-in. In a tier where good options for spikers are lacking, Forretress fits that role well. A Arimanius, Robofiend and bl0nde 3 Link to comment
Robofiend Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 I'd disagree with some of them. Arcanine is at least A because it is one of the best defensive walls we have right now. It can safely come into many physical attacks, especially non banded, and extremespeed helps it put an end to sweeps. The recovery makes it easily top tier. Steelix is unconvincing because of the lack of an offensive presence. It has no recovery, it is prone to burn and it does not stop the setting up of spikes either, so what can it to beside taking a beating? Forretress is a bit better than you make it be. Sure, the only weakness it has hurts, but fire is not that common in OU. Forre is a great answer to Metagross and can stop most banded pokemon. It remains one of the most reliable spikers in game, and only HP fire Magneton beats it. Even so, Magneton does not have a guaranteed free switch-in. In a tier where good options for spikers are lacking, Forretress fits that role well. A I agree with Keith on most of these, although Steelix isn't the *worst* thing in the tier, it's pretty bad, maybe even C+/C rank because it's so un-offensive and can't beat the most common Gengar set (WoW sweeper) I've updated the OP but would like more dicussion about the following before ranking them: Arcanine: A? Forretress: A? Ludicolo: ? Porygon2: ? Jolteon: ? Gyarados: ? Gardevoir: ? Link to comment
bl0nde Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) Forretress You guys are right, I was thinking of forretress as 248 hp 252 special D careful terrain control. Defensive forretress impish has a good niche I would agree. Great typing. Would rate Low A or high B overall I suppose. Jolteon B By definition my interpretation is B+. "can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame". I think it is more this one: "These Pokemon exert an above average presence in the metagame." Chansey/Umbreon/Pory2 A I am just trying to interpret the definitions and go with A I think: "wall significant portions of the metagame". "Strong presence". However, I am not sure if we are talking about presence as in "usage" or presence as in "pressure" on the opponent. My rank A is coming from usage rates because a majority of people have one of these on their team. If we are talking presence as in pressure placed on the opponent I would drop my rank to B (especially for chansey eventhough by definition it fits rank A by walling). Again, it is my opinion only. Edited July 28, 2015 by bl0nde Link to comment
Vaeldras Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) You have weezing listed as B, which is cool. I am not to say you need to change it, I am just putting my opinion. Personally it's a low A for me because it's one of our best physical walls: "Rank A: "These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well"" Weezing Rank A -Wide special attack move pool: thunderbolt, flamethrower, sludge bomb, hidden powers -Explosion means you are never safe simply switching in your special wall to stop weezing -Great typing and ability for defensive role. -access to W-o-W to annoy or weaken attackers -Pain split to help keep weezing's health up. Ludicolo Rank A -Wide move pool. [thunderpunch/surf/giga drain/knock off/toxic/synthesis/leech seed/ice beam, etc] -rain dish + leech seed can make it very difficult to take out on special defense side without sludge bomb/ -Making ludicolo physically defensive allows it to check for metagross/gyarados(carry tpunch)/swampert/kingdra. Also, there is still enough bulk with this build to switch in on starmie and giga drain it for HP recovery. Kingdra Rank B -Kingdra takes neutral damage from most attacks; however, timing is still needed to get kingdra on the field without sustaining damage or being status'd. -Once kingdra is on the field and has dragon danced, it can be difficult to absorb the STAB waterfall + outrage. -Special sweeper kingdra is still out there. If you have to adjust, you can lose precious turns. Charizard Rank B -Rank B because timing is needed to get it in the game. Its most popular opportunity would be to switch in on the W-o-W of weezing. It is unable to do this due to possibly being hit by a tbolt, which makes arcanine superior overall. -charizard lacks the priority move arcanine has and the recovery move arcanine has. Intimidate is also more useful in general. -Most charizards are belly drummers (50%-70%). If you arn't ready for it, +6 can hurt you. Random note: belly drum puts attack at +6 even after intimidate. -Due to many charizard being drummers, some players name their special attacking charizards names which imply they are physical sweepers when in fact they are not (other people do this besides you vaeldras, this is not a call out). Caution is needed because a strong fire blast/overheat on unexpecting pokemon can be problematic depending on the situation. Steelix Rank B [crunch/iron tail/earthquake,rest,curse,roar,toxic] -Special Defense steelix has a niche in the metagame mostly because of gengar. -Play around with the set and you'll see the niches. For example, one curse is enough to take on non-banded metagross and win easily (in b4 crit). -It's usefel to have a defensive steel type around for locked in dragon claw/outrage/meteor mash. It's also useful to absorb T-wave/tbolt and sludge bomb/toxic. -HP fire magneton only beats special defense steelix if steelix is beat down or resting. -Be ready for Weezing W-o-W and skarmory if you are a steelix user. Don't let yourself be set up on. -Other pokemon steelix can help check for you: Alakazam/Jolteon/Aerodactyl/Espeon/Umbreon/Porygon2/Chansey/Venusaur. Gyarados Rank A or B Weak to Tbolt and status effects, but has switch in opportunities with intimidate. Low A or high B, not sure. Arcanine B -It has a niche in the meta mostly for absorbing gengar and weezing W-o-W. -Priority move e-speed -good ability + bulk + access to morning sun = a very bulky defender. Forretress C -4x weakness to fire can be used to bait in fire attacks for flash fire pokemon, but is still a big weakness with so many arcanine running around. -doesnt really make any offensive pressure unless you explode? -it's almost a requirement to carry EQ for magneton so you sort of lose a moveslot there if you prefer a diferent move other than EQ. -lots of switch in opportunities with good resistences for setting up spikes. -I'd like to say total terrain control, but everyone knows a gengar will be floating around blocking your spins (when is a gengar not on a team?). It is my opinion written off the top of my head. Why exactly are you comparing zard to nine doe? Atm i think the most dangerous zard set is sunny day/ fire blast/ solar beam/ ancientpower with a lum/salac, since literally nothing enjoys a fire blast from zard, not even arcanine. Wouldn't bother running anything else, especially with arcanine around. Never seen anyone else naming their special zard after a bdrum set anyway, lmao, so i'll assume you spectated one of my battles without knowing. Btw if anything i wish zard had flash fire :rolleyes: Edit: I need to find a better name for the ap zard i finally managed to make Edited July 28, 2015 by Vaeldras Link to comment
Robofiend Posted July 29, 2015 Author Share Posted July 29, 2015 Umbreon just isn't A rank: while it's a great check for (some) Gengar, it exists only for that purpose (and Starmie). It's 100% bait for Ursa, Heracross and Metagross, all of whom are scary and will smush your other walls (or Sweepers) if you let them set up on you. gbwead, bl0nde and DoubleJ 3 Link to comment
codylramey Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) Umbreon just isn't A rank: while it's a great check for (some) Gengar, it exists only for that purpose (and Starmie). It's 100% bait for Ursa, Heracross and Metagross, all of whom are scary and will smush your other walls (or Sweepers) if you let them set up on you. I think ur being a lil harsh on umby. He can support a team well with wish/healbell. Hes a counter to gengar w/o sub disable which isnt common anymore (which prolly means its more dangerous now than b4) and if gar doesnt have disable its not a good idea to stay in and fpunch due to the risk of being pursuit trapped. And if you give him confuse ray ursa, heracross, and metagross become slightly less of a threat. Toxic however stops Slowbro. And then theres espy who umbreon can stop with faint atk doing >50% damage. Obviously he cant do all of these things at once but he isnt complete trash outside of gengar n starmie. But no hes deff not A rank. His flaws do stand out to anyone using him. I was almost swept by a growth jolt one time due to umby's (my spcl wall) inability to stop him. (LF foul play) Edited July 29, 2015 by codylramey NiceRice, bl0nde and Robofiend 3 Link to comment
bl0nde Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Gardevoir S rank. Good move pool: W-o-W, Pain split, tbolt, psychic, calm mind. Good Ability: Trace or Synchronize Just simply a monster of OU. Link to comment
xilias Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I think kingdra deserves to get an A rank,It has great bulk,it can easily set up on weezing / arcanine-fire/water moves .rest+ chesto makes status users useless,it has great stabs and it can be really scary with his sets(rain sweeper/sub+DD) it's a perfect late sweeper. gbwead and Robofiend 2 Link to comment
bl0nde Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 would like more dicussion about the following before ranking them: Gardevoir: ? Gardevoir S rank. Quiet thread has been quiet. It doesn't look like I can troll anyone into discussing these more. I have never used gardevoir before, but I would give gardevoir a B+ from watching it. I would also be okay with A- for gard. <- (my opinion) Arimanius 1 Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I don't think anyone appreciates troll comments in these threads yo. I'm glad you came clean though on your stance with gardevoir. I'd agree, B+ due to poor speed Link to comment
Robofiend Posted July 30, 2015 Author Share Posted July 30, 2015 Quiet thread has been quiet. It doesn't look like I can troll anyone into discussing these more. I have never used gardevoir before, but I would give gardevoir a B+ from watching it. I would also be okay with A- for gard. <- (my opinion) You just gave Gardevoir: S, A- (which isn't a ranking atm) and a B+ Pick one and defend it ffs DrCraig 1 Link to comment
Arimanius Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 You just gave Gardevoir: S, A- (which isn't a ranking atm) and a B+ Pick one and defend it ffs Actually I think the S rank was a joke, I think B+ is her position about it Link to comment
codylramey Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 B feels about right for gar. Is chansey on there? I feel like she may be slowly taking Blisseys place in OU. Which, sidenote, means that she wont be UU by usage anymore xD gbwead 1 Link to comment
Robofiend Posted July 30, 2015 Author Share Posted July 30, 2015 B feels about right for gar. Is chansey on there? I feel like she may be slowly taking Blisseys place in OU. Which, sidenote, means that she wont be UU by usage anymore xD Rip our plan to kill special walls Link to comment
Gunthug Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 lel cody you can't use "gar" to describe gardevoir, almost spit out my drink thinking u meant gengar as B Robofiend, Arimanius and Vaeldras 3 Link to comment
codylramey Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Rip our plan to kill special walls Yea kinda, except chancey CAN be beat by spcl atkers depending on moveset. Doesnt have toxic then growth jolt, i think, can set up on it I know it can if you predict the siesmics right. Slowbro can set up on twave bliss, And espy can str8 up kill if it gets enough of a chance too. But yea it is a pretty safe switch. Sub gengar shits all over it. lel cody you can't use "gar" to describe gardevoir, almost spit out my drink thinking u meant gengar as B Plz gengars a scrub. Link to comment
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